Racing!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, I dynoed my car about a month ago and my results were 142whp and 155 trq. I ran a 15.5 on the track. I here some people with 145whp is it a big difference if I were to race that person with 3 more hp than me in a SPEC. I am so comfused because I race sometimes on saturdays and cant beat those damn SI's. I feel my car with alot of power so whats the deal. someone please help. Im all stock. I read alot on diferent forums and everyone sais that Si's are no problem. please correct me if Im wrong but I also read that SOME Si's can run 15.1 in the 1/4th. then that would be a close race between the Si and SPEC. I beat almost all the other cars that people on the forums say they beat but the Si to me is so damn difficult. They rev to damn long :mad: while im shifting. I have been driving stick for about 10months. someone please help me out here, Im am so damn comfused. out of about 7-8 Si runs I have only beaten one. I feel I shift pretty fast and I hardly even spin my tires when launching. I always take the lead but then after about 5-7 seconds thats when the Si starts creepin on me. I need some serious driving lessons.:(

HEEEEEELLLLLLLLLPPPPP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

it sounds like you need some mods :)

It also seems like you need help shifting, 15.5 is a decent time. Many do much better...but it is acceptable considering you probably ran in Houston where theres so much humidity. Maybe an intake and some more practice driving couldn't hurt.

Learning to drive a stick is not some one-time thing. It is an on going lesson and you are always learning. Just practice shifting, try to me as smooth and fluid as possible, then go to the track a few more times, wait for some good conditions (40's, low humidity) and you might be surprised how much your time can drop.

Looking back at your other thread it looks like you need to work on your launch. What rpm are you dropping at?

I launch my car at 1500RPM just so that I dont get that wheel hop. I changed my tires in the front also to some NITTO's same size as the stock ones. when power shifting I shift at 6200 maybe sometimes at 58 or 6000. I also got beat by one of those new 02 hatch Si's last week and just yesterday after I made the post I got beat by a swapped Lx with a si engine. Im going to try and not race any more untill I get some mods. I Just think that with all that TRQ there should be no chance for the Si, even if its modded. I was also thinking maybe that guy had a GSR swappe, and not a Si engine, but still I got beat by a 02 si. If I take the lead when launching shouldnt I stay like that? It dousnt seem like that to me beacause they just start gaining on me. I also sometimes grind into 3rd and sometimes I dont Either which way they all catch up and pass me.

STILL CONFUSED:bloated: :bloated:

well on the street, launching at 1500 seems about right, but on the track you should be launching up around 2500+, especially with those nittos. Just don't drop the clutch and floor it, try to feather out the clutch and you will get a much better launch. Just as a comparison, I have the stock 195 firestone firehawks (worst tires known to man) and I still pulled a 2.28 60' on my last trip to the track.

Maybe when you launch you are going before them, but they are getting a faster launch, so they are behind you but going faster, then they start gaining and pass you. Just a thought...either way I would get an intake, practice shifting, practice launching, and maybe get some motor mounts to help get rid of that wheel hop.

if you want a cheap alternative to motor mounts
http://www.b15sentra.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47906

if you want ES inserts you will have to wait a while

if you want PR motor mounts
http://www.b15sentra.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47586

all of these will help your 60', and improve the overall feel of your car.

I thaught good launch was just to see who can get ahead and win the race. Im not sure if Im doint this correctly but when you say feather the clutch you mean let the clutch come out a little right, not exactly all the way down and when its time to go you slowly release and press the gas all the way down. I did that, if thats what your talking about.

by feathering I mean not dropping the clutch all at once, doing that will just make your tires spin. Feathering is where you slowly release it, to keep the tires on the verge of breaking loose, but not actually slipping. It takes practice, but will really help you at the track

I've seen many debates on HP vs. Torque. Peak horsepower and torque are only points on a curve and as such they may be a good indication of a cars acceleration performance but they are nowhere near perfect. The area under the horse power curve( Calculus integration ) would be a more accurate means of determining an engines potential. Power to weight ratios are also a good way to size-up a cars potential. The 99-00' Civic Si(s) may only make 160hp stock but they put close to 140 HP to the pavement. (i Know I owned one 0-60 7.1s) Couple that with a lower weight than a Sentra and the odds are stacked in the Si(s) favor. A driver can make a huge difference too.

If torque is so important why don't more sports cars have diesel engines? An engine has to make power in a decently wide band to move 3000lb of steel.

all good points, except the new si is 50lbs heavier than the spec

That's why I specified the 99-00' model year. The new Si runs around 1s more to 60mph. It is also harder to modify and has a face only a mother could love.

oh sorry, didn't notice that part. Ya I think Honda screwed up with the 02 model, I barely see them anywhere. Who wants to buy an overpriced mini-minivan thats slower than its predecessors and all of its rivals?

I agree. I think I have seen 2 or 3 on the road in the past yr or so.

ya same here, I barely see them anywhere

on another note, how do you like your z?
I love the looks of that car and it always seemed like it would be a blast to drive. My friend might get one soon so I've been curious about them. What model did you get? Taken it to the track yet? Have you had any problems?

Hey Roark, so are you saying that it is a drivers race between an Si and a SPEC. just wondering, because there is alot of people saying there is no problem beating the Si, when I see times of the si doing almost or maybe even better on the track when both cars are stock. I have beaten one only and he was only losing by a little. his front front bumper was at my passenger door, the whole time. I one time when I first baught my car, when I really didnt know how to use my car I met up with another SPEC owner and he had been driving for years, Anyways we then saw a guy that had an Si and all he had was a CAI. all three of us raced I always stayed behind and both of them stayed dead even with each other, sometimes actually the si would win and sometimes the SPEC would win. they raced about 5 times. I know he only had a CAI because he let us see his engine.

Not sure about the Si vs. the Spec-V. You should probably change the launch like you guys have been talking about. The Si is all top end so geeting the hole shot doesn't necessarily mean victory but without it I would bet any money.

As for my Z, I bought the car in October and was able to drive it for 1 month before adverse weather conditions forced me to store it for the winter. I should be able to take it out in about a month. I got the enthusiast model. Actually it was someone elses car, but they decided they didn't want it after it arrived at the dealers. Something to do with orange peel. The car is certainly the quickest thing I have ever driven. In 6th it will do 100 mph with the engine spinning @ around 4k. The brakes pull almost as hard as those on a porchse. You can feel the cars weight at slower speeds. There the ride is also a little rough but nothing you wouldn't expect to find in a sporty car. The ride is smooth at higher speeds. The steering is very direct but a bit nervous at those elevated speeds. I haven't taken it to the track yet but I will this spring (both dragstrip and SCCA solo II). I had it up to 120mph once. I was cruising at 70 mph dropped into 4th and took off. I hit the same speed in my Honda once. It took a lot longer to get there and the car didn't provide me much reassurance that it would follow my steering input "suggestion".

Originally posted by Roark
but without it I would bet any money.

It should read I wouldn't bet any money.

The only way your going to beat an Si is if he launches below the Vtec crossover. You should be able to out launch him anyway, but the Si will catch you around the end of 2nd or 3rd gear.

the si runs high 15's, the spec runs between mid 15 and 15 flat. If you run properly you should beat one no problem.

Then why hasn't he?

Originally posted by Roark
Then why hasn't he?

that question has got me stumped too
I've never raced an si so I have no personal experience with it
car-stats.com has them rated at a 15.7, now I know they can be off, but normally not by over a half a second.

To beat an Si, the Spec V MUST be launched damn near perfect. These cars seem to be the best rivals going on lately. I have personally raced Si's with my B12 and 1st den DSM (NA). My B12 easly outlaunched the Si, As I can launch very good and my car wighed 2100lbs. My DSM took an Si off the launch too, thank god for a 4000rpm stall:p

I went to the track again today and did 2 runs both were 15.4. a little better now , not that bad, im all stock. There was a yellow SPEC there. IT was a woman driving it. she did a 17.2 (MISSED 3rd gear. my god thats bad. Her husband did a 15.7. I launched at 2000 and dumped the clutch. my 60'' was 2.373 and second run was 2.349.

the spec-v and the rsx-s are the bitter rivals right now, an SI shouldn't even be a challenge if the spec owner can drive. This is the first time I have ever heard of an SI beating a spec, maybe I should go out and find one so I can see for myself.

The reason for the Si being the Spec V's main rival is becuase the Spec V is so hard to launch, and the cars run almost the same time on the 1320. Top end, i do believe the Spec V takes the Si. As for the RSX type-S, If the driver can drive goos, they can walk the Spec V.

I've been racin for 17 years now and i never thought i'd like this rice so much.. the torque on the Spec is the key a good launch about 2200 and good modulation with quick 6500 second gear shift and i'v walked rsx-s wit inake and exhaust .. now i have a Cia and an aftermarket exhaustas well as no cat timing advanced about 1-2 degrees and runn sythetics blended in this fashion 3.5 quart of 5w30 and .7 qarts of 15w-50 mobil one.. that takes care of the high taching that you all will freak out about.. the spec v is designe in my opinion for much higher rpms..and i wouldn't be surprised if Nismo comes out with a a controller in a year or two to set upthe engine for a 7500 redline i mean its dual overhead cam multivale variable valve timing.. hell my pushrod LS1 redlines at 6250 and it kicks midish 11's consistant

Shit even with just the Cai and the sythetic.. i wasted my nephews 2002 IS300 5 speed I6..

Author the car can do it.. you have to practice and relearn everything.. or unlearn everythng you know.. you should nal a15 flat with no probs ad Si, rsx's Vr6's and the like you should own .. hell man i beat a 4.6 98 mustang Gt and he wasn't stock.. boy you wanna talk about being pissed.. that why i don't like fords.. even their cobra and Mach 1 is a joke to my vette or Ws6.. they are always playing catch up.. go out their and kick ass

The Spec V doesn't handle high rpm because of it's valvetrain. It's valvetrain will easily handle 7500rpm. The reason it won't do high rpm because or the motor's rod/stroke ratio. The long stroke(hence a lot of torque) and short rod cause the motor to have high stress at high rpm. This also causes port velocity to be brought up quicker, but gets unstabe at high rpm. If you want the Spec V to rev to 7500rpm, you'll need to de-stroke it and use a longer rod. Rod/stroke ratio is the reason you V8's won't rev worth shit, and you have tons of torque.

Well i wouldn't say that.. my ls1 has a rev kit and i can go to 6500 without vavletrain damage.. but i set the rev limiter to 6250 the LT% redlines at 6500 as well..and the Lt1/lt4 Roadmaster conversion i built redlines at 6400..

Now when i run the Spec v i shift at 6500 it doesn't cut out.. you sure that nismo doesn't have somthing on the horizon that will increase it to 7000.. i mean hell if my V-8 are nailing 6500 i can't see why the spec shouldn't have a little more go uptop with ou destroking.. i mean this motor is bulitproof according to the japanese.

but understood what you said..
it just amazes methat it can't hit 7500 the way it is with out damaging or losing power.. cause it sure still feels strong at 6500 it hsn't flatened out yet

thanks for the reply

Actually the tq curve does drop off fairly rapidly once it gets up around 6k. Once the engine hits about 6800 you start to get valve floating and then its just downhill from there. In order to rev even to 7k you would have to have atleast new rods and springs, then destroking would also help to prevent damage. The qr25 is by no means bulletproof man. The open deck design is pretty weak, and earlier tests by JWT and others showed the engine self-destructs around 275whp. If 275 is considered bulletproof by the Japanese then that is pretty sad, especially condidering the sr20 can handle up to 400whp on stock internals.

Thanks .. i can handle new rods and springs myself.. wel i should have an import guy there looking over my shoulder.... Mna i was sure i read in a 2000 issue of scc mag that the Jap spec v version was capable of far more hp than 275 though it was in its early pre production stage..
if i find the article i will quote to you from it.. not that i believe "anything ' in an Import mag... J/K

So my V-8 don't seem to shabby after all and they are produceing gobs of torque& HP well over 6k


their is still life in the old pushrod.. don't count them out quite yet.. i have a couple of friend withtthe appropriate cams and other vavletrain mods pushing 7k in a ls1 and pulling all the way up their.. not bad for ohv technology

later and thnks for the info

Yeah, I have a lot of respect for the american muscle, just not the cocky rednecks you seem to see everywhere that think their v8 is the best thing since sliced bread :). I'm sure with the right internal mods you could push 7k in the spec, but you wouldn't be making any power up there unless you got i/h/e/cams, after those I think a while new world would open up. It's really interesting you saw an article about a jap spec-v, because I was under the impression that the spec-v was not, and will not be produced in Japan. Maybe they imported one from the US and started working on it...

WLL the mag is a 200 SCC and i remberthem talking about it.. heres h catch it was the 2.0 making 175hp
the article as i remeber went on about the rocker and the lightweight material and thelook of non durability but upon closer inspection the said the design was from their racing vavletrain

If you have a Fax number i'm sure i can find t and maybe you could lookit over.. it got me interested in imports again.. i dropped out for awhile.. with all the America bashing.. i mean take my ette itsa 93.. but the same engine was built in 89 a four cam 4vavle 405 hp marvle 350.. thatthe same hp rating the zo6 has tody 12 years later same displacement.. but in pushrod 2v cam in block so its cnsidered the techincal marvel.. America can do it.. it just a matter of why when we can use pushrod v-8 and still get the job done.. you know thold saying ..if it isn't broke why fix it..

get back to me wth a fax and i'll see if i can get it over to you today

Al

I found it... and it doesn't answer any of the direct ?'s but the motor in question was the Sr20 "V"e

with short duratin cams allowing for peaky torque but due to the short duration only a 6700 redline.. as you said 6800 and they start floating.. but roler rockers.. is that what the Sr20 have?

so the Jap only VE(190 hp 2.0)
Spec V

hey do me a favor.. i wanna fill my engine mounts to reduce wheel hop.. what would you use exactly?

ah, well the sr20 is a completely different engine than the qr25. When you said a spec-v I thought you meant the qr. Well the sr20ve is a very nice engine, it can handle a high redline and is very strong.

If you plan on filling your mounts a lot of people use window weld, and they seem to like it, but I haven't used it personally. Place racing has some motor mounts out though that you might want to check out.

thanks pal..

Oh ya know Murco.. i do live within 300miles and i'm calling him out.. he wants to race his ppis uyelow Rs against my Ws6 .. not realizing that 440rwhp isn't the whole story the 3200 torqe converter with a 2.5 Str with shiftkit and gears and Nitto's is like having a 500 rwhp 6speed.. and it never misses a shift and is always consistant with .18

then he accuses me of noyt having a zr1 vette like a 93 (10 years old) is hard to find.. you find one taken care of with a few miles.. and you can have it for low 20's


if you live in Florida and wanna see it go down.. i'm ready.. but its all on him he made the challage so he'll be driving the 275 miles in whatever car he brings

hehe, sounds like fun. I'm in texas so I guess I'll have to miss out. Unless you bring a video camera.... :D

Brilliant.. oh yes i will bring a camera.. he's in for a huge shock.. ithink it was you who told me not to mouth offf unless you have your facts straight he doesn't even know the performance specs on his "VR6 GL Jetta.. " he says its 3000lbsthe 4turbo is 3050 so he is 3100 easy that 300more lbs.. his car sucks in slalom 61 vs 66 for the spec skid is .79 and i forget fo the spec but i beleive its .86 and braking is so in favor of the spec v

And what funny the R&T times for both cars are within .20 of each other.. that a drivers race. intake and exhaust and nitto's and later.. oh and the best part .."i'm a Six i have torque throughout the rev range.. well i'm a 4 banger with a six speed knowing how to drive it right i keep it inits peak torque range.. so yor v6 advantage is mute

and the sure sign of a _hit talkeris when he doubts a beautiful car like the Zr1..

i'll have pictures of my GMs up tomorrow

Here where I live there is a lot of hondas on saturday nights. so that means there is alot of these Si's. they probably just have to many mods and me nothing. I raced a GT-S celica with a 2000 preylude I launched it at 2000 at dumped the clutch and beat both of them, but then while in 4th gear the GT-S caught up and passed. we raced twice with the same outcome. we both left the preylude. at the light he asked what I had I told him nothing and kind of stunned. Im not sure what he had all I heard was an exhaust. Was that suppose to happen? some people say its a drivers race and I find that kind of hard to believe because that thing was quick after a while.

Specvracing.. i owned a 200 celica Gts and that car sucked off the line what a short powerband but they did evetually get moving well.nothing liemy Spec off the line.. i'd crush a GTS try just a Short ram or Cai it will help alot when they go by up top.. like the story i old b4 i raced a buddy in his stock 5speed IS300.. had by a 1/2 a car upto 55-60and he started pulling.. now i only put in a Cai and removed my secondary cat at the time.. and when we raced again i pulled on him all the way upto 110 and we called nojoy.. 1/4 mile in these cars ar lik no higher than 95

i'd say just a good intake ad a catless (both exhaust and a free flow muffler and good driving and you won't have any problems unless the civic si-type r(ijust read it in motor trend) comes over hear it a 200hp monster civic.

Thats funny because I have raced two Is 300 and I always pull on them. one was my buddys and the other I think was a automatic since it was some older guy in the car that was reving on me. I have beaten most of the cars that people race in their SPEC, I just cant beat these DAMN SI's. Ive only beaten one. I watch one race saturday and it looked slow. it was one of those VAN 02 TYPE.:bloated:

Specvracing.. i know which ones the Ford focus looking toyo matrix ..station wagon looking Si..yuck their ugly .. but they did test well against the spec within .3 in both 0-60and 1/4 which really makes it a drivers race..

Ohthe IS have to be the new 025speed or it doesn't count..they are much faster..LOL but really they are

practice on your launch a good 220-2400 modulated dump will pull on them hard andbang second hard and keepyour foot into it until 6500 rpm.. thats what ido and i have no probs with tthem.. they breath better uptop so you need to be ahead and holding your lead and you win.. .. i tell you even just the Cai will make huge difference uptop.. anything to get the spec v to breathe increases its chance of winning.. man a Celica GTS did a fly by on me had like 10 cars in traffic.. i nailed it in fourth and by the time i need to get into fith i had caught him a nd passed him.. now i not bragging but alot of that was driving as he was weaving in an out of traffice i chose my line ad caaught the little punk ..had my nephew with e.. he couldn't believe how i caught him and that i did catch him wit such the lead he had.. don't underestimate our cars.. they are something special.. you notice i',m a dedicated domestic owner.. i wouldn't buy Jap unless it was worth every penny and this car is worth more :)

start with a Cai and practice lauunching and grabbing second gear quickyou should smoke ssecond if you grab it right anf lurch forward.. use the torque.. you have to run a different race than the Honda.... oh be careful they are release a type r version of that very same Si 200 hp

:D you can rev till 6500. Thats cool. I can only go till 6200. I read in some other forums that you lose power after about 5800 or something like that. so now I only rev to about 55-5800 only when racing. with your mods you seem pretty fast have you gone to the track yet? :sun:

Well i don't know if letting it breathe has anything to do with it but it feels like it pulls to me right to 6500.. and i don't watch the tach in 1rst or 2ncd.. i just listen and i hear no drop off although i'm sure it occurs but the gearing is so h it carries you over .. and when you shift you drop righ down into your peak torque... pretty sweet

i don't have official times .. but i have beaten or stayed dor to dor with a couple of high 14 mustangs 5 speed pre 99 gt's a 98 and a 97 with intake and exhaust.. they were not too happy.. as i know them

man you know i'm a domestic lover mainly Gm but this Spec it a achine man i've never had so much fun.. man you hav a vetteor a ws6 you worry about jealous peolkeying it.. pouring shit in the gas, stealing it.. the spec looks mature. alittle like a asmallBmw. classy not ricey and goes like hell. handles with razor precision and brakes excellently.. solid feling brakes and steering.. and delivers a smooth ride.. you should be in my Zr1.. you need you filling redone after hitting a few small ruts in the road.. it tight but too tight.. the spec v is wel balnced machine...

do you rember Murco with his Jetta saying he can take any spec v within 300 miles.. i live within that radius.. but he's too stupid to understand.. his car is 8 grand more.. and a 6 motor trend tested both .. identical acceration times .. but the spec outslaloms, out skipads and outbrakes his jetta VR^ and he say the spev peolare delusional to think they can beat an almighty german jetta.. what a jerk i offered 1500 but he want a track race.. whn he initially said anytme anywere.. so the turnpike.. the spec even has a higher top end.. he can't see that is an overall better car and for 8k less.. and he thinks the spec's interir is chincy.. but his jetta is a stripper.. sad some poeple are lgend in their minds.. i wanna _uck him up and take hi money.. but he won't

i went to the track again last night and I think I improved sort of, I got a 15.2 but only once out of 5 tries. I got the 15.2 the first time and after that could not do it again. all the other times were 15.4 and one 15.3. still more practice:D

if you're still stock that is a nice time!

I'm going to the track tomorrow, hopefully I'll run ~15.6-7 (its pretty hot down here right now)

I just had my exhaust put on not even a week ago. but I dont believe in exhaust giving me extra horse power. I did the same time without it. anyways it not the whole cat-back it just the muffler. could it be that I couldnt get that 15.2 again becuase my engine was maybe hotter. is 15.4 good. I was glad that I got that 15.2. I hear most people are getting 15.1 with CAI. I have a big question, what is the difference between a $200 AEM CAI and a $50-110 CAI. I wanted to get this one CAI that cost $50 on ebay. or maybe a K&N CAI that cost $110 on ebay. just wondering what makes AEM so good.

One word, quality. The other brands might do the job for a while, the problem is most of them don't have enough supports, so the cai will vibrate a lot more than an aem or injen. This vibration over time will kill the MAF. So you can either buy a name brand cai, or get one of the cheaper ones and risk having to pay $500 for a new maf, your choice. Then again several people with aem's have had to get new maf's as well....so I guess it is really a gamble either way.