01 Taurus SES driveline problem

Hi all-

I am replacing the passenger side halfshaft, hub (bearings noisy) and ball joint. I have the ball joint separated, the shaft can be pushed out of the hub with a tool. So far, a little misery but moving along, sorta.

The latest challenge concerns the lower balljoint. It is separated. I need to disengage the stud from the control arm. The arm doesn't move down with any kind of reasonable force to give enought clearance to disconnect the ball joint from the arm. If I push down on the arm about a half inch of ball joint stud still sticks out of it. So, did I miss the point? It may be that the lower control arm either has to be loosened or removed in order to proceed. The Haynes manual doesn't help much on that subject. From their words it seems to indicate you remove the nut, use a separator tool and then you can move the knuckle outward. If you don't there isn't enough room to loosen the bolts on the hub or remove the halfshaft.

hello ted, have you disconnected the tie rod

Hi-

Thanks for the reply.

I disconnected the tie rod, separated the ball joint, removed the speed sensor, loosened the nuts on the strut tower. The brake caliper is off along with its mounting. Somehow I just can't get enough clearance to free the steering knuckle from the control arm. No matter how I push there is always near 1/2 inch of stud sticking through the control arm. It is loose though. The fork broke it free ok.

I have tried to see if there is some reason for the arm not going down far enough but so far I don't see it. It may just be binding in its bushings enough to make it feel like you'll kill it if you push too hard. What concerns me is that the arm isn't impacting something in the areas that are not easily seen.

It really is starting to look like I have to loosen or remove the control arm to solve the problem. If that's what it takes I'll send Haynes a big "thanks" for the help. :)

Still to come, by the way, removing the ball joint from the steeering knuckle. I borrowed a press from Autozone. They tell me it will do the job. I do have to get in there first.

Thanks again,


Ted

Try tightening the bolts on the strut tower. If those are loose, like you mention, the entire assembly is hanging that much lower, probably the 1/2 inch you need. If you have the tie rod end loose and the anti-sway bar end link loose, you should be able to coax the ball joint out.

The new hub didn't come with a ball joint already installed? If you are going to all this work, why not install new ball joints as well!?!

-Rod

hang in there ted,like rod said tighten knuckle.with the wheel straight put your pry bar in from r/side of strut down under control arm. it should not take that much force with heavy bar!! let us no & good luck

Hey all-

Thanks-I had loosened the strut bolts so it would allow the bottom end to move around. My concern was whether it would damage anything if I pushed the control arm down. It will take a lot of force to get that last half inch I need in order to get the ball joint stud out of its hole. I'll give it a shot in the morning. It does concern me as it seems I will have to stand on it to get it down enough.

I have a new ball joint that will have to be pressed into the knuckle. The hub assembly is bolted to the knuckle. The ball joint is a separate issue. As usual they could have made a small design change and made the work a lot easier. The hub is held to the knuckle with three bolts. two are reachable from the getgo. The third one is trapped behind the speed sensors equipment, the toothed assembly.

Can't get the hub off until the whole thing is loose. Can't get it loose until the hub is off. Pretty darn silly. I think I want to trade the whole mess for some old American Iron with rear wheel drive. :)

Thanks again. I'll let you know how it works out.

My fault, my brain interpreted "hub" as "knuckle."

-Rod

Hey all-

Thanks-I had loosened the strut bolts so it would allow the bottom end to move around. My concern was whether it would damage anything if I pushed the control arm down. It will take a lot of force to get that last half inch I need in order to get the ball joint stud out of its hole. I'll give it a shot in the morning. It does concern me as it seems I will have to stand on it to get it down enough.

I have a new ball joint that will have to be pressed into the knuckle. The hub assembly is bolted to the knuckle. The ball joint is a separate issue. As usual they could have made a small design change and made the work a lot easier. The hub is held to the knuckle with three bolts. two are reachable from the getgo. The third one is trapped behind the speed sensors equipment, the toothed assembly.

Can't get the hub off until the whole thing is loose. Can't get it loose until the hub is off. Pretty darn silly. I think I want to trade the whole mess for some old American Iron with rear wheel drive. :)

Thanks again. I'll let you know how it works out.

The Gen IV Taurus is a pain to change the ball joints. By removing the rear lower control arm bolt, the control arm is allowed to drop more than enough to clear the ball joint stud.

On my '02, I had to use a pitman arm puller to separate the ball joint from the lower control arm. Also, the halfshaft has to be removed from the steering knuckle to provide clearance for removal. Don't forget to remove the snap ring, either.

The ball joint press available from AZ does not work to well for the Gen IV's. The cups with that press do not fit up against the knucke. I had removed the entire knuckle from mine and removed the ball joint on the bench with some customized press pieces. Removing the entire knuckle and paying a shop $20 to R&R the ball joint for you would be easier.

Thanks much RD-

I guess I better get in there and remove that bolt. Even that doesn't look like fun. If that works I'll get the halfshaft and hub out. Then for the ball joint. That sounds like another challenge.

Thanks again :)

Ok-Now for a follow up-

I removed the rear control arm bolt. The ball joint came free. As expected the Auto Zone Ball Joint Tool does not fit. I am returning that and will take the knuckle to a shop on Monday.

It also appears they gave me the wrong halfshaft. Fully compressed the new one is substantially longer than the old.

To add to the hilarity I pulled the old halfshaft out. It came out very easily. But I don't see a carclip anywhere. Did it come out and fall on the floor? Was there no clip to start with? Is it laying inside the transmission case in two pieces?

The saga continues. :)

Ok-Now for a follow up-

I removed the rear control arm bolt. The ball joint came free. As expected the Auto Zone Ball Joint Tool does not fit. I am returning that and will take the knuckle to a shop on Monday.

It also appears they gave me the wrong halfshaft. Fully compressed the new one is substantially longer than the old.

To add to the hilarity I pulled the old halfshaft out. It came out very easily. But I don't see a carclip anywhere. Did it come out and fall on the floor? Was there no clip to start with? Is it laying inside the transmission case in two pieces?

The saga continues. :)

There is a difference in the right halfshafts between the AX4S and AX4N transmissions. IIRC, the AX4S shaft is about 1.5 inches longer.

If the shaft pulled out very easily, the circlip was probably not installed. I'm not sure if the circlip was broken it could go anywhere; if it did go anywhere it would have been into the differential and been chewed up---I think you would know that.

Good Luck.

Bob

Is it worth it to go fishing for it with a magnet? I'd at least try.

Thanks everybody-

First, I better either turn on the halogen lights, I do have them, or get glasses. Would you believe the clip was on the shaft? I didn't see it. I was expecting something a bit more robust and never saw the thing! I will change my logon to "over the hill."

I went to Autozone with the shaft and the original. The guys behind the counter told me the old one was ng and that was making it appear to be a different overall length. I am not comfortable with that answer. I am concerned over the difference between the two trans also. The AZ site doesn't indicate any of that but other sites do. The AZ solution of putting the shaft in and if there is a problem removing it is not reasonable.

In the end I may return the shaft and buy another one from an old line type parts store in our area that has a machine shop as part of their operation. I was taking the steering knuckle to them anyway re. the ball joint.

Hi all-

Update on the halfshaft:

To know which shaft to use it is necessary to know which transaxle is in the car.

Does anyone know how to ID the transaxle on this 01 Taurus. I found the tag on top of the converter housing. It indicates AEZ1, 1F1P7000AA, 173979 (assuming I saw this correctly while standing on my head holding a flashlight). I think I need to cross ref. that AEZ1 to AX4N or AX4S. The shaft AZ gave me is closest to the N but a little short at 21.5" per Haynes measurement method. For the S, forget it. It should be 23.56".

From another website I did find the pan has 17 bolts and that translates into an "S." Problem is, is this an "S" or some other alternative they installed in this car. I saw mention somewhere of a rare but possible unamed alternative.

Thanks
Ted

Hi all-

Update on the halfshaft:

To know which shaft to use it is necessary to know which transaxle is in the car.

Does anyone know how to ID the transaxle on this 01 Taurus. I found the tag on top of the converter housing. It indicates AEZ1, 1F1P7000AA, 173979 (assuming I saw this correctly while standing on my head holding a flashlight). I think I need to cross ref. that AEZ1 to AX4N or AX4S. The shaft AZ gave me is closest to the N but a little short at 21.5" per Haynes measurement method. For the S, forget it. It should be 23.56".

From another website I did find the pan has 17 bolts and that translates into an "S." Problem is, is this an "S" or some other alternative they installed in this car. I saw mention somewhere of a rare but possible unamed alternative.

Thanks
Ted

Visual identification:
The AX4S has 17 bottom pan bolts and the AX4N has 19.
The AX4S has a servo cover (arrowed) while the AX4N is missing the servo cover (arrowed).

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n113/rdh2/AutoTrans.jpg


Look at vehicle certification label on the drivers door. Under the block labeled TR (marked as number 9 below) there will be an X or L.

L — Four-speed automatic overdrive, AX4S
X — Four-speed automatic overdrive 4F50N (AX4N)

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n113/rdh2/label.gif

Thanks Bob-

It is a 17 bolt "S" from what I can see. I am going to double check what I saw in the A.M. and then return or exchange the halfshaft to AZ.

And---thanks again. :)


Ted

Hi all-

I just got the steering knuckle back from the shop. Price was fine, about $80 with the ball joint. The joint is worth around 55-60. Can't complain.

Also, I the local AZ store has some knowledgeable folks. I presented one of them with all the info. They don't list the halfshaft properly on the web or their internal system. The parts type that looked at it this time was able to cross reference over using a paper catalog from a manufacturer.

Forgot the trans seal so I have to get that. Then I'll go for the re-assembly. Hopefully, all will go ok. I'll post the end result. It may take a day or two as I am slightly, I hope, under the weather.

Thanks again.

Ted g

OK-So I finally got all the parts. I have to do one more thing before the reassembly work. The differential seal, the one the spines from the inner cv goes through, should be replaced. Actually, now has to be replaced given my ill fated attempt at removal. Once again I trusted my stupid Haynes Manual. Bad move? It says to pry out the seal or use a seal puller.

I tried an easy does it type pry. No result.
I then got the bright idea of taking my small slide hammer puller and gave a light tug with that-no result except for a wrecked seal
Took a better look at all this. Is there an outer cover that has to be spun out or am I wrong. It sorta looks like it has an outer part that may need to be turned out with a spanner (I think that's the correct term_. I am thinking of a wrench with two points that go into holes in a part to turn it._

Also, I think it's time for me to get an online data source for service info for the Ford and also my 07 Volvo 850. All Data ok or is something else better. All data indicates they have TSB s and recalls also.

Make that a 97 Volvo 850.

I would think your Haynes would explain how to remove the driveaxle seal on the trans/differential in the automatic transaxle section as that is where it is for one of my vehicles. It indicates that the seal is a two-part design, with an outer metal ring and an inner rubber seal. It says to use a hammer and hook tool to pry up the outer lip of the seal to dislodge it so it can be pried out. So, if the two vehicles use the same design seal, then that would be what you have and somewhat consistent with what you found. A spanner wrench is the right name for what you thought you needed, but won't work here.

Thanks much

The parts guy gave me a single piece that pretty much looks like an inner seal from an old brake drum. I was thinking, wrong of course, that it somehow replaced the entire seal assembly. I think if I get the right parts it should start to make sense.

hello ted, i would think a slap hammer should work. just make sure you get behind metal part of seal.you could also use screw driver.get between seal & trans lip & tap to start moving seal. then get behind seal to knock out (or use slap hammer from inside)

Thanks again=

Wow, I just tried the slide hammer again-no movement. I got frustrated enough to get an All-Data Password. Cost me a few bucks but from their info it does appear that the outer ring gets forced out. They say, use the special tool. Uhhhhh, what special tool? They have a picture and it looks quite substantial and expensive. In any case I have confirmed that it need to be forced out. It also appears that the new seal, the one piece, is correct.

Now what? Not sure I'll get our there and play some more. When my wife gets here with the other car I'll go in search of a seal puller if I have to.

Maybe a seal puller will work maybe it won't as I thought they were more for pulling regular rubber and metal seals. Quite frankly, this particular seal I have found to be very difficult to pry out even with a two foot pry bar. I get the impression from the book and what you are experiencing, that the puller wouldn't be stout enough to do it. I'm now starting to think that maybe this "two-peice" seal is or close to a regular seal. I know you need to be careful not to damage the edge of the bore. Using your slide hammer would be very much like what the book pix describes as going around the seal from behind with a hook tool that they hammer on. The tool is kind of a T that has a hook at its bottom to catch the seal from behind. The T top is to hold on one side and the other to hammer out towards oneself. Another method I have used an awl or other sharp tool to pierce the metal ring that the rubber seal is attached and then I could start to bend that edge out and grab it with channel locks and eventually leverage it out.

Thanks Tripletdaddy-

This is turning into utter madness. If I had any idea I would have this much trouble with the seal I would have taken a chance on the old one. I just thought it best to replace while I was in there. The manual made it look too darn easy.

The original seal has an outer ring that is quite substantial. It's hard to put it into words but its not flat against the trans its got a rounded shape with holes evenly spaced around it. Then inside there was the actual seal. It is supposed to be two pieces but at this point I am not sure. It looks more like a really tough one piece.

The new seal looks pretty much like a bearing seal from a drum brake. Nothing special except the rediculous price.

At this point the innards of the seal have been pulled out. That is the rubber and its reenforcement. The darn thing laughed at my slide hammer. I hit it hard enough I was thinking that the outer ring was screwed in. The seal puller isn't going to do it. It just tears the metal.

Being afraid of damaging the trans housing I went online and looked for the tool that Alldata shows. Good luck. I found all kinds of aftermarket stuff for GM. No Ford. Really wierd. It's as if the Taurus was some kind of low production exotic. Frustrating. Especially since the GM tool is under $20. I would pay a lot more to get out of this mess quickly.

I was thinking of trying to bend the metal but that may take a bit of force. Ford sells cars with exploding springs but then makes a stupid little seal strong enough to take this abuse. Again, wierd.

Thanks again,

Ted

It kind of sounds like an inside snap ring, retaining ring. If it is not a complete circle, I wonder if it could be pulled out with good snap ring pliers or a spanner wrench like you mentioned. I've seen some arrangements that there is like a little pocket that allows you to get behind the retaining ring with something pointed so you can pry it out. For as solid as this thing sounds, I would have to assume that it is in some sort of groove. Good luck.

Thanks for all the reply(ies) Tripletdaddy. :)

The seal is like a brake drum seal gone completely out of its mind. Like its been reinforced with some sort of alien technology. The problem I also see is that the rubber extends over part of the metal that goes into the bore. I suspect that has acted as a shock absorber when I try to use a slide hammer puller on it. I may try that again anyway with a bearing puller if I can get one to fit. They pull in multiple spots. It may help.

I really think, though, it needs a puller that will apply a steady pressure on it to remove it. The problem with using a generic tool for this is that there is very little in the area on the outside of the bore to have a tool push against. But I am thinking---sometimes this is dangerous as displayed by the mess I am trying to get out of now.

I can't seem to post pictures of the seal here so I put them on http://s288.photobucket.com/albums/ll199/SomersetTed/

If you go to the slideshow function you can see them more clearly.

Thanks again for the help.

Ted

Ted-

I've looked at the factory Service Manual, pictures of the seal you posted, and a picture of the tool (P/N 303-107 or T74P-6700-A).

I think what happens is the tool's tapered portion expands when the forcing screw is turned. When it expands tight in the seal, the forcing screw then acts as a puller against the shaft to remove the seal. See the pics below of the tool operation.

Doing a Google Search for the tool part numbers, I found one for $150. It's kind of pricey for a one use tool, but may be cheaper than you hauling the car to a dealer. Check hxxp://www.etoolcart.com

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n113/rdh2/303-107.jpg
P/N 303-107 or T74P-6700-A Remover, Crankshaft Front Oil Seal


http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n113/rdh2/rhdiffstep1.gif
Using the special tools remove the right differential seal.


http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n113/rdh2/rhdiffstep2.gif
Using the special tool remove the right differential seal metal protector.
Rotate the special tool.
Rotate the forcing screw while holding the special tool.
Remove the metal protector of the seal


http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n113/rdh2/rhdiffstep3.gif
Using the special tool, remove the rubber portion of the seal.
Rotate the special tool.
Rotate the forcing screw while holding the special tool.
Remove the rubber portion of the seal.


http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n113/rdh2/rhdiffstep4.gif
Using the special tools, install the RH seal.


I would think you may be able to use any seal installation tools to install these seals.

Thanks muchly re. the specialized tools :)

I subscribed to AllData just after I got myself into this mess and found the tools. If I had done that first this never would have happened. The original seal was probably just fine. In any case you are right about it still being cheaper than hauling it outa here and having the work done.

Tomorrow morning I'll have the time to make the list of numbers for the tools. It looks to me, I hope I am wrong but I don't think so, that there is a tool to get the outer ring off. That is the rather swollen outer part. Then there is a separate tool to remove the part of it that actually sits in the bore. I think there is a small or addition to the tool that adds to cost of the tools also.

I spoke with the local Mac Guy about the tools and he can get them. Rough idea so far on prices from a Ford\Rotunda Catalog is over $300 without the install tools. They specify also a tool that I think is meant to center the seal in the bore somehow. Why that? Dunno.

What I would like to do? Well, do everything I can to protect the trans and the input bearing. Then take a fine hacksaw blade and carefully slice the seal and its metal ring being careful not to affect the bore in the trans. When it gets close, slide hammer it. Out it comes. Will I try this? No, but I do like the idea. I really don't want to pull the trans as a result of trying this stunt.

So, I will probably order the tools, after checking EBay. There is a remote chance I can find something there.

In closing, one thing worries me greatly. I have already done some damage to the seal. I hope the tools can still easily remove it. If I have to resort to the hacksaw after buying the tools---yuk!

Thanks again,

:)
Ted

Ted,

I don't know how big a hurry you are in, but a new post on this unique seal and its removal might get you the experienced response that this post does not attract.

In the meantime, your pix really do shed some light on your stubborn seal situation. My thoughts before you dump an unreasonable amount of money to a single use tool are: find something thin and sharp that you can hammer and pry under the flat rim that I assume lays flat on the outside of the trans and axleshaft bore. A heavy scraper, putty knife can be used to start tapping behind its lip. I'd also try to take advantage of those holes, possibly even enlarging them without drilling all the way through the seal to avoid chips inside(also why I don't like sawing it)stuff a rag in if necessary. Then use something strong like a drift or punch and pry to 3 and 9 o'clock position to rock it out sideways and to 12 (towards the seal). Hopefully those directions will get the side you're on to creep out. DON'T pull to 6 o'clock, that may just work it back in unless you are prying against a fulcrum. Hopefully you can then get under the metal lip of the seal and pry it out. When prying, I find putting something flat, sometimes wood, under the pry bar gives extra leverage and protects the trans. I know a similiar seal I recently removed took an unbelievable amount of force at the end of a 18 in pry bar. I tried using my slide hammer on it with its hook and it did nothing, but I also thought I really couldn't get much force on it either. I didn't have the patience to try positioning it on the metal so it wouldn't bounce on the rubber. I have a round drift pry bar set that would be exactly what you need. I would expect a good parts or hardware /tool store to have it. I bet you will get more than one use from it and have some pizza money left for the victory celebration!

Thanks again TD-

The one luxury I have this week is time. I'd like to see the car back on its tires by the end of the week.

I posted a picture of the actual seal. There is also something else bothering me here. Looking past the seal to the splines the halfshaft engages note, hard to see, the missing spline (around 6 o'clock). It is probably something to do with the machining process but looks a little wierd. I tried the new shaft, sliding it far enough to feel it smoothly engage the splines, it seems ok.

http://s288.photobucket.com/albums/ll199/SomersetTed/

Now, I have to decide whether to proceed the much cheaper way as we are discussing. The other choice is the Ford tools. The middle ground is enough of the Ford stuff to remove that outer ring only. Then I could work on the inside stuff. I am still concerned that I haven't already damaged the seal enough that the Ford tools won't work. In that case, the decision is made. :)

Just in case anyone is still watching this thread===


I finally got the car back together. Not having it all this time was fortunately a minor nuisance for me. Otherwise I would have had to get help with this.

I didn't test drive it yet but it is back together. The seal that held up the show was finally extracted using Ford\Rotunda Tools. That alone is a multi-page story. You have to go to the distributor\manufacturer for these tools. Any other source is going to charge too much. No good on that. The tools, by the way, cost about $225 with all the shipping. Not the worst thing in the world. I have the tools for the other side if I need it and they also handle crankshaft seals on a Taurus engine. Besides, it's still cheaper than having the work done. They do also have a set of tools referred to as essential service tools for the car. I didn't check the price but should have. Bet its over a grand though. :)

The seal itself needed something to seperate its two parts or getting it out was problematic. Hence the Ford tools. The inner part was still a minor problem. Even the Ford tool couldn't get that out. I finished it off with a slide hammer now that i had enough space to get in there.

Anyway, end of story---------I hope.

Thanks for the update!

Are you going to set up a rental program, or "Tool Share" for other Taurus owners on this forum.... ;)

-Rod

Thanks Rod--
:)
You know, that might not be a bad idea. I could buy a bunch of oem tools and do some kind of Web Site that rents them. Maybe that would replace my former employment, doubt it, but you never know.

After all that work, by the way, the problems are better but not totally solved yet. I also may have spotted some other stuff also. I'll start a new thread after I actually do a full inspection on the beasty. In spite of everything I did I never did a full run through. I am still getting too much noise out of the front. If I hadn't just put in a new hub bearing-----I'd be sure it needs-----a new hub bearing. Crazy ain't it?

It's a good thing this car is so darn purdy or I wouldn't be bothered with all this. I really got lucky on the appearance of this used Ford.

Ted

If you feel like you have ruled out everything on your vibration/noise problem, but can't eliminate it, I have a similar project where after replacing things that would have likely caused the problem, I discovered I have an out of round tire. I need to see if the rim is bent or it's just the tire. The tire is perfectly smooth but when spun, has a discernable high point when holding a steady reference point next to it..

Good to here ted,thanks for update

Hey all

Sorry bout the slow response sometimes. I can't seem to get email out of this thread. I did try to subscribe. Not that important.

Out of round tire? Seen that one before. :) I installed four new Michelins on the car when I bought it some months back.

The noises that are left may be coming from the motor\trans mounts. I took a fast look at the drivers side. That one seemed ok but I will take a more careful look.

On the passenger side the torque strut is in need of replacement. Some cracking in the rubgber. I eliminated an amazing amount of noise just by flipping it. At least that's what I think I did. :) The engine end is still at the engine end though.

I am going to try to take a look at the engine mounts over the weekend. Haynes suggests lifting the engine a little to check. Sounds good to me. They also recommend lifting by the oil pan if they need replacement. Done that before with other cars. If I use Ford tools on that one I'll need another mortgage on the house.

My suspicion is that at least one of the right side mounts is bad.

The symtoms that are left are some noise on the road. Not as defined as originally. Especially since I got the old torque rod turned and tightened. It was also too loose.
The other symptom is one heck of bang sometimes when going from drive to neutral or park. As the load comes off it really lets you know. If you go from Drive to reverse and then neutral, nothing. Really sounds like a mount to me.

To add to the hilarity I understand these beasties have an issue with the ECM needing to be reflashed if the idle tends to a little funny. It is very strange. It's smooth and seems at the right rpm. However, you can feel the engine pulling hard against the brake at times. Pull it out of gear and the rpm is about right. It's wierd but it matches the symptoms outlines in a TSB I found. The trick I guess, after all the other nonsense is done, is to get a Ford dealer or someone else with the equipment to just do what I want . I hate those conversations where they treat you like you're a fool and they are some kind of diefied expert on all things auto.

This is only part of the list of interesting problems. I can deal with most of them without a problem. The only thing is getting motivated.

Did I mention the exploding springs that Ford wants to put shields over. ----Now that's a really great solution. And then they wonder why folks buy the asian cars. On the other hand I would bet more than a nickel that those springs are made in a certain People's Paradise.