Mechanical/Tech issues tracking the GTRA
panoz302
03-02-2008, 08:19 PM
I am opening up this thread to help sort the cars, I have just completed my 4th track day in the car and have had some good and bad experiences with the car.
Item: 1. Rear deck lid is prone to come off, and this is common, I have new rear rubber latch, heavy duty from Jw whitney VW catalog, and 3 of the quick grab fastners. This not enough need to have all the holes all 7 with fasterners. Racers tapes works but this is a stupid issue. I also removed the rear, reflector and replaced with screens to vent air out of the back of the car.
Item 2: Spark Plug Wires. another issue with these cars, I have header wrap and the thermal boots on the spark plug wires and still fried 3 plug boots to day to the extent that the car was stumbling at 3500-400o rpm and the spark was definately arching. I corrected this and the car ran fine afterwards, and this is with MSD new wires, coil and cap and rotor, the boot need to be 90o boots and covered in thermal wrap and pulled as far away fro mthe headers as possible.
Item 3. Shift light, the cars dash has alot to offer but no really visible shift light and it is dark and not easy to read. Installed a Shift light with a 5k chip.
Item 4. Brake pedal and pressure, the car need alot of brake effort to stop the car from 120 plus mph you need to be ready for this, I installed OMP pedal covers for better grip( $28) this helped alot, but with no power brakes and a minimal amount of travel to the brake pedal the brakes are not what most people will be used too. Similar to a skip barber school car.
Item 5. Front window is prone to cracking, a lexan or plex would be a good alternative, make sure the clips have rubber under them and possible remove the center as it can stress the winshield when the car flexs. Friend broke a new window frist track day after replacement.
more to come
Item: 1. Rear deck lid is prone to come off, and this is common, I have new rear rubber latch, heavy duty from Jw whitney VW catalog, and 3 of the quick grab fastners. This not enough need to have all the holes all 7 with fasterners. Racers tapes works but this is a stupid issue. I also removed the rear, reflector and replaced with screens to vent air out of the back of the car.
Item 2: Spark Plug Wires. another issue with these cars, I have header wrap and the thermal boots on the spark plug wires and still fried 3 plug boots to day to the extent that the car was stumbling at 3500-400o rpm and the spark was definately arching. I corrected this and the car ran fine afterwards, and this is with MSD new wires, coil and cap and rotor, the boot need to be 90o boots and covered in thermal wrap and pulled as far away fro mthe headers as possible.
Item 3. Shift light, the cars dash has alot to offer but no really visible shift light and it is dark and not easy to read. Installed a Shift light with a 5k chip.
Item 4. Brake pedal and pressure, the car need alot of brake effort to stop the car from 120 plus mph you need to be ready for this, I installed OMP pedal covers for better grip( $28) this helped alot, but with no power brakes and a minimal amount of travel to the brake pedal the brakes are not what most people will be used too. Similar to a skip barber school car.
Item 5. Front window is prone to cracking, a lexan or plex would be a good alternative, make sure the clips have rubber under them and possible remove the center as it can stress the winshield when the car flexs. Friend broke a new window frist track day after replacement.
more to come
Squerly
03-03-2008, 09:56 AM
I am opening up this thread to help sort the cars, I have just completed my 4th track day in the car and have had some good and bad experiences with the car.
Just a question but how come you shift at 5K? Is that normal for your car?
My addition to the "Things I wish were not the way that they are" thread is the unbelievably short life span of the clutch slave. What's up with that? This device has 2 "O" rings in it and for some reason the rings don't last but a couple of events before they start leaking and need to be replaced. I would consider this to be a big enough problem that I'm looking for a way to replace it with some other method of achieving the same purpose.
Just a question but how come you shift at 5K? Is that normal for your car?
My addition to the "Things I wish were not the way that they are" thread is the unbelievably short life span of the clutch slave. What's up with that? This device has 2 "O" rings in it and for some reason the rings don't last but a couple of events before they start leaking and need to be replaced. I would consider this to be a big enough problem that I'm looking for a way to replace it with some other method of achieving the same purpose.
panoz302
03-03-2008, 10:13 AM
1. The 302 on the dyno falls of at 5k, no more power or torquae if goes down,I guess you have a 4.6 motor.2. If you have slave it is unusual for a 302 car, most are cable clutch, the headers bake the slave and that is one reason they are not there.
Squerly
03-03-2008, 11:20 AM
1. The 302 on the dyno falls of at 5k, no more power or torquae if goes down,I guess you have a 4.6 motor.OK, I understand now. Actually I have a 5.8 and I shift at 6800. I haven't dynoed the car yet so I don't know where power falls so it will be interesting to see.
If you have slave it is unusual for a 302 car, most are cable clutch, the headers bake the slave and that is one reason they are not there.Well you guys without the slave are lucky then as you will dodge this tid-bit of arduous maintenance. I wonder why ALL the cars didn't use a cable clutch and how much trouble it would be to change mine from slave to cable?
If you have slave it is unusual for a 302 car, most are cable clutch, the headers bake the slave and that is one reason they are not there.Well you guys without the slave are lucky then as you will dodge this tid-bit of arduous maintenance. I wonder why ALL the cars didn't use a cable clutch and how much trouble it would be to change mine from slave to cable?
JML68
03-03-2008, 03:03 PM
Ah the clutch saga, such fond memories! The guys with the external slave cylinders want clutch cables and the ones with the cables want slave cylinders!
The correct way to do it is a traditional racing slave cylinder in the bellhousing operating directly on the pressure plate. This requires more effort to set it up correctly and will only work reliably with quality components like Tilton or Quartermaster (the GTS program tried if for a while but didn't use the Tilton or Quartermaster slave cylinder and consequently had reliability issues). The down side is that if you don't get it set up right, you get to pull the transmission out and do it over. This arrangement is on the Historic Stock Cars that I prepare during my non-Panoz work, and are quite reliable.
The school converted most of their cars over to a conventional cable arragnement to get rid of the external slave cylinder. Unfortunately they didn't do any engineering and just cobbled up a solution that yielded an extremely high pedal effort, was prone to breaking cables, and looked "beautiful" as it rusts away (most didn't even get a coat of Krylon!) on the firewall.
When we built the cars for the Marlboro Penske Racing Experience, (the 10 actual cars, not the 4-5 GT-RA's they borrowed and painted up like their other cars) we worked out a proper cable arrangement that had a nice feel to it, looked like it was supposed to be there, and worked reliably. Unfortunately, it was not cheap so it has never found its way onto anything else. There's not enough demand to productionize the solution right now, unless we run out of other tasks.
I may have a solution for the external slave cylinders but I need to test it first. I've installed it on my father-in-laws GT-RA which we'll run at a driver's school/Regional race in Memphis in two weeks. It has so far survived the winter without puking it's fluid on the floor from sitting, so I'm cautiously optimistic. It will also be a very economical update if it works so I'll update everyone when I have some data to support it.
The correct way to do it is a traditional racing slave cylinder in the bellhousing operating directly on the pressure plate. This requires more effort to set it up correctly and will only work reliably with quality components like Tilton or Quartermaster (the GTS program tried if for a while but didn't use the Tilton or Quartermaster slave cylinder and consequently had reliability issues). The down side is that if you don't get it set up right, you get to pull the transmission out and do it over. This arrangement is on the Historic Stock Cars that I prepare during my non-Panoz work, and are quite reliable.
The school converted most of their cars over to a conventional cable arragnement to get rid of the external slave cylinder. Unfortunately they didn't do any engineering and just cobbled up a solution that yielded an extremely high pedal effort, was prone to breaking cables, and looked "beautiful" as it rusts away (most didn't even get a coat of Krylon!) on the firewall.
When we built the cars for the Marlboro Penske Racing Experience, (the 10 actual cars, not the 4-5 GT-RA's they borrowed and painted up like their other cars) we worked out a proper cable arrangement that had a nice feel to it, looked like it was supposed to be there, and worked reliably. Unfortunately, it was not cheap so it has never found its way onto anything else. There's not enough demand to productionize the solution right now, unless we run out of other tasks.
I may have a solution for the external slave cylinders but I need to test it first. I've installed it on my father-in-laws GT-RA which we'll run at a driver's school/Regional race in Memphis in two weeks. It has so far survived the winter without puking it's fluid on the floor from sitting, so I'm cautiously optimistic. It will also be a very economical update if it works so I'll update everyone when I have some data to support it.
Cobra4B
03-04-2008, 11:21 AM
Item: 1. Rear deck lid is prone to come off, and this is common, I have new rear rubber latch, heavy duty from Jw whitney VW catalog, and 3 of the quick grab fastners. This not enough need to have all the holes all 7 with fasterners. Racers tapes works but this is a stupid issue. I also removed the rear, reflector and replaced with screens to vent air out of the back of the car.
I had no issues with this... I have a plastic car, but my deck lid is fiberblass. The outer lip goes over the rear bumper part, it does not tuck in. I have 3 of the screw type fasteners along the front part (closer to the back lexan) and two of the rubber T-straps at the rear bumper side.
Item 2: Spark Plug Wires. another issue with these cars, I have header wrap and the thermal boots on the spark plug wires and still fried 3 plug boots to day to the extent that the car was stumbling at 3500-400o rpm and the spark was definately arching. I corrected this and the car ran fine afterwards, and this is with MSD new wires, coil and cap and rotor, the boot need to be 90o boots and covered in thermal wrap and pulled as far away fro mthe headers as possible.
I replaced my wires with fresh FRPP black 9mm wires... my car came with cool sox type insulation boots and I reused those. I installed NGK TR-55s that came pre-gapped for the 5.0 and han no issues all weekend.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/cobra4b/Panoz%20GTRA/DSCF1228.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/cobra4b/Panoz%20GTRA/DSCF1229.jpg
Item 3. Shift light, the cars dash has alot to offer but no really visible shift light and it is dark and not easy to read. Installed a Shift light with a 5k chip.
I found I could shift by ear/feel... the car has no balls over 5000 rpms, but I agree that the PI dash display is a bit too low to be looking down.
Item 4. Brake pedal and pressure, the car need alot of brake effort to stop the car from 120 plus mph you need to be ready for this, I installed OMP pedal covers for better grip( $28) this helped alot, but with no power brakes and a minimal amount of travel to the brake pedal the brakes are not what most people will be used too. Similar to a skip barber school car.
I agree with this... but I found that I loved it once I got used to it. The manul brakes and endurance pads made for a maintenance free weekend.
Item 5. Front window is prone to cracking, a lexan or plex would be a good alternative, make sure the clips have rubber under them and possible remove the center as it can stress the winshield when the car flexs. Friend broke a new window frist track day after replacement.
Ours has a crack vertically down the right side... it passed tech inspection just fine. I'm going to leave it be until the cracks progress to the left... if they every do. We got a spare windshield with the car as they're prone to cracking them.
And... I love the manual clutch... it's not hevy when on track and none of the hydraulic issues I used to have with my Corvette.
I had no issues with this... I have a plastic car, but my deck lid is fiberblass. The outer lip goes over the rear bumper part, it does not tuck in. I have 3 of the screw type fasteners along the front part (closer to the back lexan) and two of the rubber T-straps at the rear bumper side.
Item 2: Spark Plug Wires. another issue with these cars, I have header wrap and the thermal boots on the spark plug wires and still fried 3 plug boots to day to the extent that the car was stumbling at 3500-400o rpm and the spark was definately arching. I corrected this and the car ran fine afterwards, and this is with MSD new wires, coil and cap and rotor, the boot need to be 90o boots and covered in thermal wrap and pulled as far away fro mthe headers as possible.
I replaced my wires with fresh FRPP black 9mm wires... my car came with cool sox type insulation boots and I reused those. I installed NGK TR-55s that came pre-gapped for the 5.0 and han no issues all weekend.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/cobra4b/Panoz%20GTRA/DSCF1228.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/cobra4b/Panoz%20GTRA/DSCF1229.jpg
Item 3. Shift light, the cars dash has alot to offer but no really visible shift light and it is dark and not easy to read. Installed a Shift light with a 5k chip.
I found I could shift by ear/feel... the car has no balls over 5000 rpms, but I agree that the PI dash display is a bit too low to be looking down.
Item 4. Brake pedal and pressure, the car need alot of brake effort to stop the car from 120 plus mph you need to be ready for this, I installed OMP pedal covers for better grip( $28) this helped alot, but with no power brakes and a minimal amount of travel to the brake pedal the brakes are not what most people will be used too. Similar to a skip barber school car.
I agree with this... but I found that I loved it once I got used to it. The manul brakes and endurance pads made for a maintenance free weekend.
Item 5. Front window is prone to cracking, a lexan or plex would be a good alternative, make sure the clips have rubber under them and possible remove the center as it can stress the winshield when the car flexs. Friend broke a new window frist track day after replacement.
Ours has a crack vertically down the right side... it passed tech inspection just fine. I'm going to leave it be until the cracks progress to the left... if they every do. We got a spare windshield with the car as they're prone to cracking them.
And... I love the manual clutch... it's not hevy when on track and none of the hydraulic issues I used to have with my Corvette.
Squerly
03-04-2008, 11:51 AM
That engine is so clean it makes me uncomfortable... :grinyes:
Cobra4B
03-04-2008, 01:25 PM
^ Yeah I'm a damn waxer at heart!
panoz302
03-04-2008, 03:49 PM
My wires are msd 8.5mm reds, they made it for 2.5 trackdays then got cooked, I have the boots and wrapped the headers, the best solution is to get wire supports and or looms and pull them as far away from the headers as possible. I met Bob Turnpage at PBOC/PCA race weekend, he was Panoz Lead Instructor and DATA wiz. He thinks the computer can function and download if you have the codes and the software. Each unit has a Serial number on the rear to get the user code. I will try to get in touch with him re this item. He also stated the school cars had the rear toe/end link issue so this is a good update to do.
Cobra4B
03-04-2008, 05:06 PM
Where are yours getting cooked? I just used zip ties to get the wires in an orderly fashion... all of mine are fine. My father and I used the car back to back Sat/Sunday... car had 32 sessions that weekend.
panoz302
03-04-2008, 05:26 PM
The boots close to the headers, I also tie wrapped them and moved them they seem to be fine now. The car get hot and I guess it is normal, I went to the MSD sight and they have pro temp boots for like 50buck seems like a good investment nothing like loosing power when you are tring to accelerate down the straight.
David Eastman
03-04-2008, 06:18 PM
I found the GM 90degree boot work better than the Ford 45degree boot. Just get a set for a small block Chevy and you will have alot more clearance.
David :p
David :p
Cobra4B
03-04-2008, 07:29 PM
Hmmm... again mine are standard 45 degree wires w/ the cool zox and zip ties acting as wire loom.
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