Turn the key and nothing

I have a 2002 Town & Country Limited, last night I parked it and had no problems at all, this morning I went out to start it and there was nothing. The battery is fully charged per a battery test, all the idiot lights come on as usual when I turn it over however the starter doesn't turn over. I turned the headlights on to see if there was any draw when I turn the key and there is absolutely no draw so the power isn't making it to the starter. I cleaned the posts on the battery, removed the positive terminal to reset the system. Still nothing, I turn the key and there is no draw at all. This was a very sudden thing, any ideas as to what else I can check? Very frustrating problem and I don't want to be at the dealers mercy not to mention I would need to get it towed.

Drop me a line if you have any suggestions [email protected]

Could be the neutral safety switch. Try putting the transmission selector in Neutral (N) and turn the key to start. If that doesn't work, hold the ignition key in the start position while moving the transmission selector through all the gears and see what happens.

Note: If your van is equipped with a STARGARD antitheft device, whether you have a removable key or not, this could be the culprit, as well.

Let us know what you find and what you do.

Another thing to try is find the starter relay in the fuse panel next to the battery. Turn the key and tap on the relay. Still nothing? Swap the relay with another nearby identical relay. Still nothing? Check for power at the relay with a test light or meter. Should see constant 12vdc on one contact and 12vdc coming and going on another as you turn the key. This will verify power to the contact for the relay coil and through the ign switch then the neutral park switch to the relay switch contacts. One of these should be missing. If you see both, reverify you have a good battery. A load test is the true test. Worst case scenerio? The PCM is not supplying the ground to the relay coil.

Being it is the Limited it has the anti-theft device, how do I reset that to see if that is the culprit? Thinking back the only thing I did different that I've never done before is as follows, before I went home I ran into the gocery store and left my car running, I locked the doors with mt remote while it was running. Now I notice when I try to start the car the "red dot" on the dash for the anti-thft stays lit constantly while the key is in the on position, I'm not sure it did that before, I thought it blinked and went off. Could the anti-theft be my problem? Is there a way to reset it?

I don't know that the security system is StarGuard, my van has the chip in the ignition key and the van came equipt with a security system from the factory. I tried different keys but no luck.

Added info, the battery tested fine under load, I just plugged it into the computer to check it, no problems, no codes. I tried unlocking the doors with the key too, nothing is resetting the theft system. More and more I'm leaning toward being locked out by the theft system but I have no way of knowing how to reset it. FYI, it's a 2002 Chrysler T&C Limited.

The STARGARD system I mentioned is an after-market device that some dealers installed in all vehicles prior to sale, then tried to make you pay for it when you bought the car. If you chose not to buy the device, they merely broke the key off in the receptical and left the device in the car. I just mentioned it because my father's Ram 1500 has one in it that he didn't buy from the dealer. Every once in a while we have to pull the wiring harness from the receptical to engage the starter. Do you see any after-market style LED lights blinking under the dashboard??

The factory anti-theft system is easy to reset. Insert the ignition key in the outside driver door lock, lock the door with the key, then unlock the door with the key. Try that and see what happens.

Did you try holding the ignition key in the start position and running the selector through the gears? What happened??

RIP's suggestion about the relay should be checked next. What were your results here??

Please keep us posted on your results.

I ran through the gears with the key turned, nothing. It is the factory anti-theft however unlocking and locking the door did nothing, next step is the relays. I'm very frustrated, I was told if it was the anti-theft it would start briefly and stall. It doesn't do anything and it is clear the starter isn't drawing any current. This started suddenly which realy perplexes me.

Here is another trouble shooting step to try. Turn the ignition to the "On" position, pull the transmission selector into Reverse (R), then check to see if the reverse lights are on, on the rear of the vehicle. If they are on, I would suspect the starter relay. If not, AND the two bulbs are good, I would suspect a bad neutral safety/reverse light switch in the transmission, or a loose connector at the transmission. The two switches are integral to a single device.

Try that and let us know what happens.

Just checked the relays, specifically the starter relay, it appears all are "clicking" but the one I really need, the starter relay, I even removed all the others to make sure I was hearing and feeling it correctly. Does the "Immobilizer Security System" disable all of this stuff? I really don't know what to do other than tow it to the dealer and I know they will soak me. I assume if the relay isn't working it would appear it is not a starter problem since the relay sends power to the starter, looking more toward the security system in my opinion, would you lean towards that as well? Are there fuses under the dash that could be an issue?

BTW, before you ask, yes, I swapped the relays around with no success. In addition I locked the doors and watched the security system turn on "flashing red dot on the dash" so I am really perplexed.

The starter relay only uses four of the contacts. #30 is to have power at all times supplied by fuse #9. #86 is from the ignitiob switch. #85 is the ground supplied by the pcm. #87 is the output to the starter. You can jump 30 to 87 and see if it will crank. Ck 85 for a ground and 86 for power with key turned to start position.The missing signal will tell you what direction you have to go for further diagnosis.

Are they numbered clearly, I see you referenced numbers but I don't want to cause any problems.

Here goes, #30 to #87 cranks the engine over, no power at #86 (used a test light connected to negative battery cable, ignition switch on), no ground at #85 (used a test light connected to positive battery cable, ignition switch on). So, not to be completely ignorant but what does this mean? At least now I know the starter is OK. Of course if this means the PCM is toasted is it common to happen so quickly? I drove it home and parked it, tried to start it in the morning and nothing. Any suggestions on where to get another completely programmed PCM for this vehicle IF this is my problem?

Just got off the phone with a reputable rebuilder of PCM's, he said the PCM definitely isn't the issue, the car would turn over even if the PCM wasn't connected. So, anymore suggestions for a frustrated Chrysler owner?

Just tested the security system, locked the doors with the window down then waited until the "red dot indicator" light stopped blinking to ensure it was armed (16 seconds). I reached through the window and opened the door from the inside, the alarm went off. I put the key in and turned it to the on position but it wouldn't disable the alarm, I had to use the remote to disable it by locking and unlocking the doors with the remote.

BTW, also put it in reverse with the key on, the backup lights work as they should.

Here goes, #30 to #87 cranks the engine over, no power at #86 (used a test light connected to negative battery cable, ignition switch on), no ground at #85 (used a test light connected to positive battery cable, ignition switch on). So, not to be completely ignorant but what does this mean? At least now I know the starter is OK. Of course if this means the PCM is toasted is it common to happen so quickly? I drove it home and parked it, tried to start it in the morning and nothing. Any suggestions on where to get another completely programmed PCM for this vehicle IF this is my problem?

Just got off the phone with a reputable rebuilder of PCM's, he said the PCM definitely isn't the issue, the car would turn over even if the PCM wasn't connected. So, anymore suggestions for a frustrated Chrysler owner?

Looks like I made a mistake in my prior response, #86 lights the light when I turn the ignition ket to start, I just tested it in the on position prior, my mistake. There is still no ground at #85, I suspect this is the culprit. Where do I go from here?

I still think it is the neutral safety switch. I just don't know which connector to the transmission needs to be removed and jumpered to test this theory. Anyone else out there with the knowledge would need to jump in. This is the best I can do to help.

Thanks for your input, anyone else have anymore ideas? Would the neutral safety switch make #85 lose ground? I have noticed a slight transmission leak, would a bad NSS leak transmission fluid? The leak has been there for a while but I haven't got around to checking that out yet. The van always ran fine and this was very sudden.

I looked and I cannot find the neutral safety switch, does anyone know where it is located on this vehicle? Does it definitely have a NSS?

Look at the picture on this site it may help you:

http://www.robskorner.org/faqs/Trans/a604trans33.html#93v

Unfortunately my 2002 Town & Country uses a different type of neutral safety switch, I cannot find an exploded view of my model van. Mine is a 3.8L limited model, the switch doesn't screw into the transmission case as in other models, just my luck. If anyone looks at this and reads back though the entries and thinks they can help me I'd be grateful.

Under the starter relay when I used a testlight at post #86,it lights the test light when I turn the ignition ket to start as it should. There is no ground at post #85 and I was told there should be a ground at that location, I suspect this is the culprit. Where do I go from here? I realize I may have reposted this in the thread a few times but I really need to stress the issue so I am clear. The dealer said I have the 4 speed tansmission which doesn't have a neutral safety switch.

Every automatic transmission has a neutral safety switch. Without one, you would be able to crank your starter when the transmission was in any gear, like D or R, and that would not be safe. Now the service manual for my Volvo calls this the "starter inhibitor switch". But no matter what it is called, it is designed to prevent starter engagement when the automatic transmission is in any gear other than Park or Neutral. If the switch fails safe, then the starter won't engage in any gear, including P and N.

Any mechanic who says your automatic transmission doesn't have a neutral safety switch is an IDIOT and should be ignored. Time to find a smart mechanic.

I have read posts in this forum that have stated that the NSS and reverse light switch are one in the same, meaning that it allows the starter to engage when the selector is in P or N, and turns on the reverse lights when the selector is in R. But I am not familiar with the location or wiring arrangement on the modern vans.

These switches have been known to fail safe. I have seen more than one person replace perfectly good starters, solenoids and relays multiple times only to find later, after much money and time wasted, that this switch was culprit all along.

Note: Some cars have this switch screwed into the side of the transmission case, some have them mounted inside the transmission pan, some have them attached to the steering column and others are attached to the gear shifter mechanism. I have no idea where yours is mounted, but it is there, someplace.

I called the dealer and they said the 3 speed transmission automatic has a NSS but the 4 speed automatic does not, it isn't even listed in the part book.

I'm no professional mechanic but I do know a little about keys. You might contact a locksmith and see if they would check the programming of your "transponder" key. Your control module may have dropped the information out therefore not allowing power to the starter. Did you say you have tried other keys and if you did do they have the chip in the head of the key?

I called the dealer and they said the 3 speed transmission automatic has a NSS but the 4 speed automatic does not, it isn't even listed in the part book.

Er...well...yes and no. It may be called a "Transmission Range Selector" or TRS switch. Here's one on a generation 3 van (scroll to 41TE transmission) : http://www.autozone.com/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/1a/47/90/0900823d801a4790/repairInfoPages.htm Chrysler made it a jack of all trades switch and true to form made it a pain in the ass to change.

Guess we have to stop using the generic term for the switch. The guy at the counter should have known what you meant. Course the parts guys aren't usually the brightest bulbs at dealerships.

your van has a TRS( transmission range sensor) as you look down at the trans from above it is just to the right of the solenoid pack. I thas a 10 way connector. It incorporates 4 different switches for gear selection; plus a trans temp sensor. It is hard to diagnose without a scan tool. You need to see the switch inputs for each gear selected. You can start the van if you want. Have someone sit in the van with parking brake on and foot on brake pedal. Jump the relay like I told you in aprevious post. Van should start. You can try and drive it at slow speed to see how it reacts. I would check the main harness from the tran and it's routing to see if you can see any areas where the harness has rubbed and possibly shorted a wire. Also check for possible battery acid damage. Chrysler engineers have been very stupid about routing wiring harnesses under and near batteries. Good Luck John

Thanks, tonight we towed it to my friends Volvo repair shop. He is going to check it out. I will post the resolution if we find it.

Would this be the part your looking for:
http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail.aspx?MfrCode=NIE&MfrPartNumber=NS43291&PartType=401&PTSet=A

That's a TRS; a neutral safety switch is a 3 pin switch.Don't know about the quality at that price. Sometimes cheap parts can compound the problem.You install a part that is no better than the one you took out; thinking it is good and you start looking elsewhere.

There is no ground at post #85 and I was told there should be a ground at that location, I suspect this is the culprit. Is it possible that this switch is causing the problem of no ground at post #85? In an earlier post it was said this is a ground to the PCM. I just want to have all my ducks in a row, I'm working with a friend to troubleshoot the problem, the good part is I live in NY and its cold outside, now I have a warm garage with a lift to work in.

The ground on 85 is supplied by the PCM. It is a safety feature. The starter can't be engaged when the engine is running. The TRS sensor supplies different switch states to the computer based on the position of the shifter. If your friend has a good scanner and Alldata or Mitchell he can get the proper diagnostics for your problem.

If the chip in the key isnt working right, i have an idea, try resetting the vans computer by unhooking the battery for about 5 minutes and hook it up and try again. If this doesnt work then its dealer time....

The battery was disconnected overnight, no luck, tried 3 different keys, no luck. It's at a friends shop now, he has another guy that is good with Chryslers looking at it. Everyone is perplexed because of how sudden the issue was. No problems leading up to the issue.

Apparently there is a receiver for the "chipped" key in the steering column. If it needed to relearn for any reason and I interupted the process this may be the result, a dead vehicle. Does anyone know how to force it to relearn? This is a stab in the dark, I have a really good tech on it and he is lost right now. He doesn't know the relearn sequence but is searching for it. He ordered and is waiting for a special "key" for his computer so he can look at the van computer components in detail.

Now they are leaning toward replacing the PCM and/or BCM, I thought I was told the car would crank over even if the PCM was bad or burned out, am I wrong? The guy has roughly 8 hours of time invested and is no further ahead as far as diagnostics go. Is it possible for a PCM to go that quickly without any indication? Would the car still crank over if the PCM is bad?

Totally Frustrated

I explained to you in post #24 how to try and start the van did you try it?

I didn't read all post but with the security concern,with that van if thats the problem it would of started and died a few times before the no crank,so thats not whats wrong unless it did that.So here we go!1. Verify the Crankshaft Position Sensor (CKP), Camshaft Position Sensor (CMP) or their wiring is not shorted to ground.

2. Verify the Manifold Absolute Pressure Sensor (MAP), Throttle Position Sensor (TPS), A/C Pressure Sensor or their wiring is not shorted to ground.

3. Test the power supplies at pin 20 on the C1 connector. Pin 46 on the C2 connector.

4. Test the ground supplies at pin 10 on the C1 connector. Pin 50 on the C2 connector.

5. If the powers and grounds are normal and the sensor or their wiring is not shorted to ground, replace the PCM.Good Luck

Dealer only to set up the new PCM,they are a big problem!

I think I read in one of your post that you did not have a ground to the starter relay, looks more and more like the PCM and a bad pcm WILL CAUSE a no crank.

I explained to you in post #24 how to try and start the van did you try it?

Yes, I could get the car to crank over but it wouldn't start.

I found a PCM rebuilder online, they guarantee the PCM they send you for 1 year and guarantee all the newest updates. What they need to program is mileage, VIN, Part # of current PCM if possible. Anybody have any luck with these companies? Less than $300 shipped via 2 day express shipping. Would the PCM fail overnight?

Did you do exactly like I told you. Key in run position and jump it at the relay. If the pcm is good and getting power from the switch and you jump the relay it should start. If the signal is not right from the TRS the computer does not know it is in park or neutral. Also a PCM is warrantied for 8 yrs or 80 thousand miles. It is less tha 8yrs old. How many miles on it?

Yes, I did exactly what you said, it would turn over but not start. The van is a 2002 with 90,000 mles on it.

Ordering a new computer tomorrow, hope this is the problem.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&viewitem=&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fws%2Fsearch %2FSaleSearch%3Fsofocus%3Dbs%26satitle%3D320223034 801%26sacat%3D-1%2526catref%253DC5%26dfsp%3D1%26from%3DR7%26nojsp r%3Dy%26pfid%3D0%26fsop%3D1%2526fsoo%253D1%26fcl%3 D3%26frpp%3D50%26fvi%3D1&item=320223034801

Read this. It gets to the PCM towards the end: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=887164

Sounds familiar but I'm buying the rebuilt PCM, my BCM is fine. I have the factory anti-theft in the van, the computer rebuild company (SOLO) told me they would make sure it was programmed to original specs and options via the VIN number. In order to purchase from them I have to provide them the VIN#, mileage, and part number of the one in the van currently. I've check out everything else and it all points back to the PCM.

$285 for the PCM, next day delivery. I'll let everyone know if it resolves the problem tomorrow evening. Wish me luck, lots of it!:runaround: :banghead:

As long as they program the pcm with the correct vin# you will be back on the road.
Good Luck

A little hint for everyone that goes to order a PCM. When I decided to purchase a rebuilt PCM from SOLO Auto Computers I provided the VIN number to the guy and then asked him to provide me with the information about my vehicle. He gave me my name, address, options on the vehicle, etc. etc. This is what you need to do to make sure they are programming it or at least looking it up I guess. In addition I supplied P/N of the original PCM and exact mileage (he said within 1000 miles). He informed me that the PCM will be upgraded with the latest updates (hope it increases my gas mileage).

Got the new PCM and still have the same problem, it won't start. This has got to be the most frustrating issue I've ever had on a vehicle. So far I'm into the PCM for $285. Someone else said to check the EATX Safety Shutdown relay, I checked it and swapped it but no luck. Is their a seding unit for that relay somewhere? I'm without a vehicle for 2 weeks now.
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

The only thing I did with this van that I never did before was I used the remote to lock the doors while the van was running. When I went home and parked it I didn't drive it again until the next day. Could the security system be a problem? Is it possible it was activated when I locked it while it was running and after driving it to my house it disabled the van thinking it was stolen?

Did your freind ever get the right key for his scanner? You need to see if a scanner will communicate with the PCM or BCM.

No, he was so sure it was the computer he didn't bother. Anyhow, it just left on a flatbed to the dealer, looks like I am at their mercy at $89 per hour for diagnosis. The only thing I can hope is that they are reasonably honest.

Well, I got the van back, its fixed. The problem cost me $600 labor and $3.06 for parts. They said a new harness was $2400 but they could repair it for the price I paid. Apparently the wiring harness had a break in it somewhere, they didn't show me. In addition while it was in they found that the shift module on the front of the transmission was leaking, another $400 work I had completed. The wiring harness seems to be a pretty common failure, something about the way it is routed. Hope this long post helps some other person out so they don't get sucked in like I did.

Review my post # 24.

My wife has a 2002 Chrysler T&C and we experienced the exact same problem. From this thread and other research it seemed like the problem was with the key sentry system. We tried the other key but that didn't help. I decided to remove the three screws from the bottom steering column cover. With the three screws removed, the top and bottom covers un-snap from each other and can be removed. (The traction control swith is in the top cover.) There is an electronic module encased in black plastic mounted on the bottom of the steering column and it attaches to the ignition key switch. I assumed this must be the receiver for the key sentry. I unplugged the cable from this module and tried to start the car; same problem. I re-connected the cable and tried again; the red light went off and the car started. I'm not sure if I'm totally out of the woods but the car is mobile again. Perhaps the problem is a loose connection right in this connector. Thanks for all of the posts; they helped out immensely.

i have a chevy 1500 silverado with stargard and the chip broke off?? any suggestions?? please help!

i have a chevy 1500 silverado with stargard and the chip broke off?? any suggestions?? please help!

I suggest you ask your question in the chevrolet ck section of this forum. You will have a better chance of someone helping you there.

good luck

Go to neverhotwired.com and read up on this site.It tells alot about the manufactured anti theft system install by the Ford.Chrysler Gm etc.I don't know if it will shed some light.