2003 Lesabre Ltd high speed vibration

2003 Buick Lesabre Ltd w/ 93K miles. Smooth as glass ride up to 65 mph, then progressively increasing "vibration" to 75 mph and doesn't get any worse at higher speeds.

"Vibration" feels almost like an out of balance wheel in that the front end shakes, but not much or to the point you can't continue driving at speed. The steering wheel does not oscillate left-right-left. I'm a decent backyard mechanic, so from my experience the vibration feels something like a weight fell of the flywheel. There's no vibration in the brake pedal when braking so the rotors should be ok. There's no looseness in the steering wheel meaning it's a tight feel when turning the steering wheel left-right-left.

The wheels have been balanced 3 times (high speed balanced once). 4 new Goodyear Assurance ComfortTred tires installed by Goodyear.

Have owned the car since 15K miles - no accidents. Problem began gradually about 15K miles ago.

I'm a very careful backyard mechanic. I was thinking about lifting the front-end (very safely) and running the wheels at 70 mph to carefully look for obvious signs. Second option is to replace the struts. The only other option I can think of is take it to a dealer and open my wallet which I really prefer not doing just yet.

Any recommendation would be appreciated. Thank you in advance.

I am sure by now, you have moved the tires from side to side and front to rear, to see if the vibration moves with the tire/wheel. Click Here (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=253267&highlight=VIBRATION) for a prior discussion on this subject!

There is probably no need to spin them that fast. Any warpage, misalignment, or bent members should be apparent at lower speeds . You might also want to observe the tires themselves, since carcass construction can impart an out of round condition even if the wheel is straight, true, and the beads are parallel.
Move the front tires to the rear, and retest.

Relying on struts to dampen out of round or imbalance is a sure way to destroy a new set of struts in short order. They are not intended for that.

Another factor is rear wheel alignment, which can impart forces through the entire car, not just the rear.

With 93K miles most likely time to replace the struts if they are the original. :grinyes:

I recall the condition described may be addressed by various GM TSBs and appears to be a problem with the last generation LeSabre and even other GM cars. Corrective procedures are typically common sense and standard wheel/suspension troubleshooting which includes what has been suggested by others. One such example:

Date: 02/01/2004
Component Name: 020000 SUSPENSION
NHTSA #: 000310007E
SUMMARY: SHAKE/VIBRATION IN STEERING WHEEL, FLOOR, SEAT AT HIGHWAY SPEEDS ON SMOOTH ROADS. *TT UPDATE. *TT

And welcome to AF.

With 93K miles most likely time to replace the struts if they are the original. :grinyes:

And welcome to AF.

Not to question your wealth of knowledge, however my wife's 2000 has over 160,000 miles with the original struts. Rides beautifully, like it is on glass

Not to question your wealth of knowledge, however my wife's 2000 has over 160,000 miles with the original struts. Rides beautifully, like it is on glass

It was just my two cents worth. :wink:

160K miles? Maybe consider getting new struts and it will probably ride and handle much better. :biggrin: The problem with worn or high mileage struts is you get used to them. I don't care what anyone says in contradiction but the initial wear starts as early as 70K miles.

I think you overlooked the problem: It may indeed be with the rotors

I had this same issue. Wheel vibration at 60-70 mph, but none at moderate speeds. Drove me nuts. Replaced the rotors and it went away.

The modern day brake pads are made semi-metalic. They are more abrasive than the old style pads. They cause very minor wear on the soft steel of the rotor surface. Even though the rotors look even, they should be resurfaced after changing pads. You don't brake evenly, you brake in spurts so the rotor face isn't true even after a while.

Not to question your wealth of knowledge, however my wife's 2000 has over 160,000 miles with the original struts. Rides beautifully, like it is on glassSorry, your wifes car has nothing to do with what's wrong with your car, or when you should replace a part.

It was just my two cents worth. :wink:

160K miles? Maybe consider getting new struts and it will probably ride and handle much better. :biggrin: The problem with worn or high mileage struts is you get used to them. I don't care what anyone says in contradiction but the initial wear starts as early as 70K miles.

You are probably correct, however, we like the ride (compared to my Lucerne which has square wheels) so until it begins to bounce for five minutes after hitting a bump, we will keep the struts for now. :smile:
Yes, 160K miles. Our LeSabre has been so good, it is all original except for tires, brakes,plugs and wires. (normal maintenance) The transmission has been flushed once, one new front hub, and regular oil changes. Beautiful car!!!

Sorry, your wifes car has nothing to do with what's wrong with your car, or when you should replace a part.

I had to read this several times to try and determine what your point was. Either you are trying to be funny (ha ha) or I am being chastised in some way. Maybe I should have another coffee, or something stronger, and revisit this post later.
:wtf:

I had to read this several times to try and determine what your point was. Either you are trying to be funny (ha ha) or I am being chastised in some way. Maybe I should have another coffee, or something stronger, and revisit this post later.
:wtf:


:lol:

From what I see and I hope the thread doesn't get derailed is there are a lot of variables when it comes to suspension and tire/wheel issues so it is hard to say who is right or wrong or what solution will work. Although your input is nice to know there are many variables when it comes to the issue the OP is having. It may or may not be relevant. Good annecdotal info but it is quite obvious the OP has some issue otherwise this thread would not exist. Also, GM TSBs support there is some issue although the solutions or fixes vary. We don't even know what suspension option the OP has. For example soft ride RPO code FE1 or firm ride & handling RPO code F41. On the F41 option/package the struts are part of a tuned GT type suspension system which includes the struts, strut coils and other components.

And everyone is free to weigh-in as long as we play nice and the recommended solution or two cents worth appears to be reasonable. :wink:

:lol:

From what I see and I hope the thread doesn't get derailed
And everyone is free to weigh-in as long as we play nice and the recommended solution or two cents worth appears to be reasonable. :wink:

Hi BN... I agree and wasn't trying to derail this thread, but simply offering my experience with our high mileage 2000 LeSabre and the original struts. Your
"two cents" reply to my post was welcomed and informative.

However, happydogs post make no sense. He says, "Sorry, your wifes car has nothing to do with what's wrong with your car, or when you should replace a part".

I don't HAVE anything wrong with my car.

Perhaps he was trying to say, that my experience with my wife's car, has nothing to do with wjshipe's (the original poster) problem, and that my experience with my wife's car should not dictate when wjshipe should replace parts. If that is what happydog500 is try to express, I can agree with him. However, I would suggest grammar lessons be considered. :yikes:

Sorry wjshipe for this deviation. I hope you get your problem solved.
PZ

2003 Buick Lesabre Ltd w/ 93K miles.
The wheels have been balanced 3 times (high speed balanced once). 4 new Goodyear Assurance ComfortTred tires installed by Goodyear.
Have owned the car since 15K miles - no accidents. Problem began gradually about 15K miles ago.
.

I'd like to put in my 3 Cent's worth. The tires sound like recent additions. Did you have this out-of-balance feeling before those tires?

One factor is the wheels and tires need to be roadforce balanced wth a Hunter 9700 balancer. This will show up any unevenness in how the tire crush under the weight of the car. This was a problem with the Symmetry Michelins on my 03. Michelins are the best as far as being round and actually rolling round.

The suggestion of moving the tires to see if the feeling of being off balance moves with the wheels is good. But I'd find a Hunter 9700 Roadforce balancer with a knowledgeable operator.

http://www.gsp9700.com/pub/search/findgsp9700.cfm

is the page to let you find a list of the stores and dealers nearby with a Hunter 9700. A Buick dealer may be more in tune to troubleshooting the wheels and new tires. It may be worth any extra cost.

Next is the possiblity of a slight misalignment. The service manager at my Buick dealer started life as an alignment guy. So under warranty when he was checking the minor imbalance I felt with vibration sensors, he also checked wheel alignment. When I told him I felt it more on a new I65 section going up a slight hill where the motor was pulling on the front wheels and didn't feel it at the same speed on the down slope on the same pavement he decided to check. He found instead of the front toe being slightly off, the rears were toed-in slightly. He said everything needs to be right at optimum. Many stores say if it's within the range for the specs it doesn't need to be aligned; but that's not true.

Fixed mine.

Now I have new Harmony tires by Michelin on the car and the balancing from the tire store spin balancer seems to be good enough to preventing any tire unevenness from causing vibration. The car also has 50K more miles on it.

Thanks to everyone who posted and appreciate the humor. In response to the questions:
- the problem has not changed with tire rotation
- there was no wear indication on the previous set of tires

Weekend game plan:
- raise the front, spin the tires at 30 mph, eyeball any wobble, bent rim, out of round tire, straight and true beads
- swap front/back wheels and redo above
- if the above doesn't find anything, there are about 10 Hunter 9700's nearby of which one is at the Buick dealer

Eventually:
- replace pads and rotors (note: I usually replace, not turn, the rotors when replacing pads, just don't have the time to wait around for the shop to turn them). Not that I want to deviate into another thread, but would like to know an excellent brand for brake pads and rotors.
- give in and go to the dealer

Again, thanks to everyone for their 1, 2 and 3 cents. I'll let you know how this turns out as I go.

Just a thought, could you have a tie rod end starting to go? I know if you road force balance the tires that should eliminate a tire or wheel problem.

Did the Op ever get the alignment checked? Normally bad tie rods show up during that type of service. You can do the 9 and 3 o'clock test on the wheel (raised) and watch the tie rod at the steering knuckle. Look for slop which is common when the odometer gets around 100K miles. Also, GM put out some TSBs about the wrong torque used at assembly on the outer tie rod end jamb nut. Also, check the lower control arm bushings.

Although I am a GoodYear tire fan I really don't think the GoodYear Assurance ComforTred are the best around or even above average. Most only have a UTQG Rating of 700AB. Maybe a good high mileage tire but definitely not a real overall performer. Reviews are mixed with many negatives so I would not rule them out. :grinno:

Here are the results from the w/e. Rased the front wheels, ran at 10 (idle) and 30 mph and noted the following observations:

LF The LF turned much slower than the RF and eventually the LF stopped altogether while the RF kept spinning (no slow down). There was no noise such as the pads/rotor rubbing. The LF rim tracked perfectly – no in/out movement and perfectly round. Looking at the outside edge of the tire, there was a 1/16” low spot for about 1/8 rotation. Noticed the drive shaft between the transmission and wheel (inner/outer CV joints) was out of round much more than I would have expected, perhaps 1/16” – 1/8” up/down movement while turning. No looseness from 9/3 test.

RF The wheel turned much faster than the LF. The rim tracked perfectly. No low spot on the tire. While watching the tread from the front, there was some left/right movement that tracked with a slight run between the pads/rotor. In other words, I heard the pads/rotor slightly rub when the tire tracked to the right (towards the engine). It wasn’t much of a noise, just very slight. The right drive shaft spun without any up/down movement.
I cranked it up to 70 mph and didn’t “see” anything significant like excessive vibration from an unbalanced wheel, but reached in and felt the strut assembly and felt vibration. Unfortunately, I couldn’t isolate whether it was caused from either the left or right side. My suspicion is it’s the left drive shaft. No looseness from 9/3 test.

Swapped the front/back wheels (front end still raised) and reran the car at 10 & 30 mph.

LF There was a very slight low spot, much less than the original LF. The wheel continued to run very slow as before.

RF Absolutely perfect. One out of four isn’t bad.

Left the tires swapped and gave it a road test at 70 mph. The good news: The vibration was reduced, almost acceptable. The bad news: It was still there, not nearly as noticeable, but still there. Not the smooth as glass ride that a LeSabre Ltd should have.

So I ask the experts of this forum for their analysis (besides replacing the brake pads & rotors). Thanks.

I agree with BNaylor (Bob), that GoodYear tires may not be of the same quality they use to be, however, this problem is not limited to GoodYear! I recently had another popular brand that would balance perfectly and ride smooth for about 1K miles, then for some unknown reason, the vibration would return. Never did figure out the reason other than belts shifting. I did rotate them on a more than regular basis, to alleviate some of the irregularities. I might add that, I did replace all four tires with the same brand and they have been as smooth as glass at all speeds for over 5K. All it takes is one bad tire on these cars and you can feel the vibration transferred all over the car! Just like a wife, sometimes you get a bad one and sometimes you get a good one!

I agree with BNaylor (Bob), that GoodYear tires may not be of the same quality they use to be, however, this problem is not limited to GoodYear!

Yeah I hear you Bo. Not that it makes any difference in this thread but add Firestone and General to the list. :thumbsdow

Another awful GoodYear brand is the Integrity but you get what you pay for. However, the higher performance GoodYear tires like the Eagle RSA and F1 "All Season", etc. are pretty darn good although up there in cost. :grinyes:

Not to throw a wrench into this thread, but before I had the ComfortTreds, I had bought a full set of TripleTreds, ran them for about 2k and the front end began to vibrate. The dealer said they were too aggressive for the Ltd and convinced me to go with the ComfortTreds. Oh, well.

On a different note, replaced a set of Michelins on my wife's Odyssey with Yokohama T4's and it now rides like the Ltd should. Even my wife noticed the difference. Darn.

One last question: Is the 1/16" - 1/8" out-of-round movement in the front left drive shaft acceptable?

Thanks to everyone for their help.

Have you checked that rear wheel alignment yet? It's been a couple weeks now.

I'll agree completely that tyre quality has been on the decline ever since D.O.T. has allowed 3 ply treads and one ply sidewalls. Carcass quality has suffered as a result, and movement or loosening of the reinforcement is almost inevitable unless you never drive on bumps.

Did you find out what was your problem, I have an 05 Lesabre with the vibration at 60 mph and higher. I have had a wheel alignment, new struts, new pads and rotors all the way around, and new lower control arms on the front. I still have the vibration, and now I have vibration when first take off from stopped but then stops after reaching 30 changing gear.

Any help will be appreciated.

Seems common, my 2005 did this for years, , tires never corrected it, wheel bearings, excess hub runout, light weight suspension components added up to this issue

Did you find out what was your problem, I have an 05 Lesabre with the vibration at 60 mph and higher. I have had a wheel alignment, new struts, new pads and rotors all the way around, and new lower control arms on the front. I still have the vibration, and now I have vibration when first take off from stopped but then stops after reaching 30 changing gear.

Any help will be appreciated.

Those era cars had a problem with the body structure that resonated in sympathy with any vibration, particularly wheel end vibrations. Even the lightest amount got amplified. The fix was to reinforce the body structure so it resonated at a different (Higher!) frequency. Kind of expensive and a lot of work.