Nut and bolt your car...

after each event. I've been told this several times and now I'm going to reiterate it to you all. I thought I was doing this pretty well but apparently not. I checked all the logical stuff but failed to look inside of the carb... and a bolt got loose and dropped down into cylinder #5. Game over.

The bolt is apparently lodged in the cylinder head so I'm assuming a total engine rebuild? Any input will be appreciated.

after each event. I've been told this several times and now I'm going to reiterate it to you all. I thought I was doing this pretty well but apparently not. I checked all the logical stuff but failed to look inside of the carb... and a bolt got loose and dropped down into cylinder #5. Game over.

The bolt is apparently lodged in the cylinder head so I'm assuming a total engine rebuild? Any input will be appreciated.

If the engine was running when you lost the bolt, the changes go WAY UP that you will have caused some damage! At a minimum the heads will have to be rebuilt or even possibly replaced. The extent of the damage will only be known after the head is pulled and you can examine the cylinder itself.

If the engine wasn't running, and you have NOT turned it over, then its possible all you'll need to do is pull the intake manifold and attempt to retrieve the bolt. If that doesn't get it, you'll then have to pull the head.

Because of the sealed spec racer GTS engine, the above work will have to be performed by an authorized engine rebuilder such as L&B, if you want the car to remain eligible to run in SCCA GT2.

Sorry! :crying:

Rod

If the engine was running when you lost the bolt, the changes go WAY UP that you will have caused some damage! Yep, the engine was running. We pulled the intake manifold but couldn't find any sign of the bolt. Started pulling plugs and found #5 plug was smashed. I'm sure that this was caused by the bolt. I couldn't fish the bolt out threw the spark plug hole, nor could I see it, but I could see some dents on the piston that were surely caused from hitting the bolt. I'm pretty sure it's lodged in the head.

What now? Rebuild the entire engine or just try to fix that one cylinder and the head? I'm assuming that once were that deep into the engine it won't make any sense not to rebuild the entire thing.

Sorry, but it sounds like the entire engine needs to be pulled to me! If you want to do things right contact the folks at L&B about having your engine rebuilt.

Sorry, but it sounds like the entire engine needs to be pulled to me! If you want to do things right contact the folks at L&B about having your engine rebuilt.I agree. Expensive lesson but wtf... guess that's just the way it goes. :frown:

I agree. Expensive lesson but wtf... guess that's just the way it goes. :frown:

Yes indeed it is an expensive lesson to learn! BTW...are you going to pass on the Road Atlanta DE event or bring something else?

Rod

Yes indeed it is an expensive lesson to learn! BTW...are you going to pass on the Road Atlanta DE event or bring something else?

RodI have a 996TT that I drove before I bought the Panoz, but I've just had it painted and I'm reluctant to track it now. Hell, I only got it out of the paint booth a couple of months ago! I'll probably just pass on RA and spend the weekend looking for sympathy that I know I won't find... :rolleyes:

Squerly - where did the bolt come from? I mean, what was it supposed to be holding? I can't think of any bolts in the carb short of the little screws in the throttle plates...

Squerly - where did the bolt come from? I mean, what was it supposed to be holding? I can't think of any bolts in the carb short of the little screws in the throttle plates...I'm not sure what the name for it is but there is a hollow tube that the fuel is forced through that then sprays the fuel down toward the butterflies that lead into the intake manifold.

Anyway, there are two of these short tubes, one on the front and one on the back of the carb. Each is held in place by a bolt (with a Phillips head) and the screw/bolt came loose on the back one and was promptly swallowed by the carb. I wouldn't have known what happened but I decided to check the jets for my trip to Road Atlanta and when I pulled the air cleaner off I realized that the bolt was missing. This started the hunt and it was obvious where it was going to end.

I'm actually surprised that vibration would affect the carb in this manner, but apparently so. It's to late now, but I found that the bolts that hold the bowls on were also getting very loose. Who would have thought???

Jim

I am bumming out. I am sure you are sick to your stomach !

I just tightened the same bolt last weekend before our race @ NPR. I was surprised when I found it was loose.

Are you going to go back with the spec engine rebuild in order to run SCCA ?
If so, I have a contact in Atlanta who swears by a certain shop to rebuild to spec.

I also have a # for a GTS owner in FL who is running a high horsepower stroker motor on pump gas.

I have not decided what I am going to do when I have to rebuild my motor -
big horsepower or spec? I only have 45 hours on the motor so hopefully I will not have to make that decision for quite a while.

Let me know if you need some phone #'s to do some research on engine rebuilders.

Guys - I NEED to understand why folks are going to carbs...the FI systems are working fine on our cars....

The guys above have GTS cars, which only came with carbs. They have approximately 400hp Ford 351's as opposed to the bone stock 225hp 302's in the school cars.

Wow... I'm sorry to hear that... go buy a bunch of painters tape, tape up the Porsche and go have fun.

Wow... I'm sorry to hear that... Yeah, it really sucks. I spent a pretty good amount of time on maintenance over the last week or so, and I was feeling pretty good about the car in general. Not feeling so good right now...

But seriously, where do you draw the line on nut-and-bolting? Are we supposed to look inside the bell housing and trans too?

^ I've never had a carb'd race car... I have no clue what's important. I had a carb'd 22R in my '87 Toyota beater truck, but that POS was indestructible.

^ I've never had a carb'd race car... Nor have I, all my P-Cars are injected. Damn... education is just so expensive... :banghead:

^ Just go flog the Porsche and take your mind off the other p-car for a bit :D Then build it back better.

I guess it's official... Harry at Harry Williams Imports removed the head and agrees that a rebuild is in order. So where do I take a Panoz GTS to be rebuilt?

^ Build it back better! Unless of course you have to put a sealed crate motor in for competition use.

I'd build a badass 408 (stroked 351) maing 500+ rwhp :D

^ Build it back better! Unless of course you have to put a sealed crate motor in for competition use.

I'd build a badass 408 (stroked 351) maing 500+ rwhp :DWell that's the dilemma I face right now... I wouldn't mind having that 500+ beast but then it wouldn't be raceable in SCCA/NASA events. Also a consideration would be later resell. A crate motor may be entertain a larger audiance...

^ True true... keeping it true to what it is may be better in the long run. You could always build a monster now, then put a crate motor back in before you sell it (if you sold it) that way the buyer would know it's 100% fresh.

NASA ST2 is HP/weight... but I guess you're doing GT2.

You could always build a monster now, then put a crate motor back in before you sell it...I need to get a job where you work... apparently money flows a little better there than it does here. :wink:

^ You're the one w/ the TT Porsche ;) Build the motor how you want it... then come sale time put the crate motor in and sell the built motor on a mustang forum.

Jim

Here is the info I was able to get from a friend who has had GTS engine rebuilt to SCCA Spec. I did a cut and past job from the email he sent me today..............

"The best and most reasonable guy I know is JR Werner. His shop is near Atlanta Motor Speedway in Locust Grove, GA His phone number is (678) 583-1641"

"Overall JR took my engine from a starting dyno 405 hp to 465hp. He put in a lightweight crank, new heads, pistons, etc. ended up at 485hp. It was night and day difference in power AND all legal with SCCA."

Also call Panoz, I believe they have a list of "approved" rebuilders which this guy is on... and they need to put the seals on the motor to meet SCCA regs.

I sent you a PM with my contact info if you want to talk.

Doug

485 hp in a 2500lb car ain't bad at all :D Is that crank or wheel hp?

Humm.... I don't see how a lightweight crank could possibly be legal on a sealed spec motor... But the whole concept of "spec" on these cars has been a joke from day one. Very few drivetrain and brake parts haven't changed since the "speck" was locked in with SCCA in '99. Originally the SCCA was dyno checking and equalizing then sealing all the engines.

Humm.... I don't see how a lightweight crank could possibly be legal on a sealed spec motor... But the whole concept of "spec" on these cars has been a joke from day one. Very few drivetrain and brake parts haven't changed since the "spec" was locked in with SCCA in '99. Originally the SCCA was dyno checking and equalizing then sealing all the engines.

Hmmm... 15% more horsepower in a "spec" sealed engine??:eek7:

Humm.... I don't see how a lightweight crank could possibly be legal on a sealed spec motor... But the whole concept of "spec" on these cars has been a joke from day one. Very few drivetrain and brake parts haven't changed since the "speck" was locked in with SCCA in '99. Originally the SCCA was dyno checking and equalizing then sealing all the engines.

The spec has changed a number of times over the years. Originally the car was classified in GT-1 (V8 engine tube frame chassis) but it was at a huge disadvantage due to power, weight, and tire width limitations. The original GTS specification was 385hp @ 2950lbs running on 17x9 wheels.

Later the car was reclassified to GT-2 where it was supposed to help the participation numbers for the GT-2 class. As part of its reclassification, the SCCA promised to help the GTS be more competitive by revising the specification. I know horsepower was increased, brakes improved, wheel diameter and width increased, rear gear ratio reduced, and maybe a couple other items to help it to compete with other GT-2 cars.

The 485hp sounds a bit on the high side, but then again I haven't kept up the latest spec. In any event you NEED to talk to PAD about what to do with you engine rebuild if you want to be sure its done right!

Rod

To the change list add:
power steering, headers, carb spacers, cowl induction, bigger fuel lines...

The best part was each of these changes and the ones mentioned above each knocked off 2-3 seconds per lap at Road Atlanta according to the guys making the changes. These things ought to be faster than LMP cars now!

[quote=94_panoz_#7]To the change list add:
power steering, headers, carb spacers, cowl induction, bigger fuel lines...

.....as well as....Higher compression and upgraded carb

Jim

Give us an update on your engine rebuild.

Who did the work?
Will it be Panoz spec or did you go for more H.P.?
Did you Dyno?

Will you be at the race @ NPR in March ?

Doug

Jim

Give us an update on your engine rebuild.

Who did the work?
Will it be Panoz spec or did you go for more H.P.?
Did you Dyno?

Will you be at the race @ NPR in March ?

Doug

Hey Doug, thanks for checking on me. Panoz recommended Elan Motorsports so I shipped it to them. In the end, I opted for engine specs outside of what one normally gets in a Panoz. :wink: Hopefully I will be able to run ST1 or ST2 but the weight/HP ratio will definitely keep me out of the GT class. Haven't dynoed the engine yet as it is just now being re-installed. At this time I am planning on making the event. I don't have much of a chance given that I've missed 2 out of 6 races and the 3rd I spent chasing everyone after the "incident" :uhoh: But what the hell, it's fun and a good primer for future events.

What's this I heard about you taking the FASSST class? Someone looking for a license???

Glad to hear you will be back in action.

What kind of extras did you have done to the engine?
I'm sure Elan has plenty of tricks up their sleeve. Did their high-end technology translate in to a large bill ?



Yep, Did the Fasst deal last month so I can get licensed. Leaning more towards NASA than SCCA. Will need to get the car dyno'd, HANS device, and right side net in order to be legal @ NASA.

You did not miss much at Feb NPR race. It was not a good day for me. The track was fine on Fiday. For some reason Saturday the track was very slippery. Qualifyng was a disaster. Everyone sliding and spinning out. Could not get a fast lap in. Then the session was cut short due to Vintage Camaro blowing engine and catching on fire.

At the start of the race, a Ferrari Cup Car spun out right in front of me between turn 11 and 12. Locked up the brakes and barely missed him. More slipping and sliding. Had a vibration in front right wheel (weights came off). Had trouble keeping all 4 tires on the track. Decided that I had enough slipping and sliding and returned to the pits. No need to tear up the car.

Doug

Doug - thanks for the report..very cool. It looks like NASA has a more natural home for the cars...I've run with SCCA for 25 years and may have to switch, at least for these cars. SCCA will allow us to run but probably in SP which will be totally out of their league...basically an unlimited class...but the real reason I'm posting is that we have Texas cars (6) which have the seemless tubing, and we decided to get them teched by SCCA to see if we could get a log book - DONE!! The guy was very impressed with the cars...we basically had cleaned up the car, changed belts and charged the extingusher and they passed with flying colors...maybe that adds to their value??

You did not miss much at Feb NPR race. It was not a good day for me. The track was fine on Fiday. For some reason Saturday the track was very slippery. Qualifyng was a disaster. Everyone sliding and spinning out. Could not get a fast lap in. Then the session was cut short due to Vintage Camaro blowing engine and catching on fire.

At the start of the race, a Ferrari Cup Car spun out right in front of me between turn 11 and 12. Locked up the brakes and barely missed him. More slipping and sliding. Had a vibration in front right wheel (weights came off). Had trouble keeping all 4 tires on the track. What do you mean I didn't miss much? Sounds like a wildly eventfull day! :lol: Cars crashing, burning up, sliding around... hell man, what does it take to register on the "Eventfull Meter" :eek2: ???

Fun to watch, not participate.

OK, Spill the beans on your motor.

OK, Spill the beans on your motor.All in good time my man, all in good time. :wink:

OK Squerly

Cat's out of the bag ............. ST-1 stickers on order !!!!!

Spill the beans..... What did it dyno ?

Doug