Dealing with peacenics - debate

Edit: split from peacenics joke - Heep

And what exactly have you achieved?
Oh thats right you've started a decent into a Hobesian world.

Hmm, yeah thats a real good idea.

And Id like to see you explain it to the Judge when he sentanceing you for Assult.

Considering the current state of the world, I dont find that in least bit amusing.

Also you'll notice there concerned with inocent lives, If you punch them you give up your inocence, and become a combatant, I would like to see you actualy try that, When a Mob of angry protestors are chasing you down the road you might change your mind.


(please note that this a smart arse reply ment with lots of sarcasim from a non-believer in the effectivness of war.) :D
:finger:

Originally posted by DVS

(please note that this a smart arse reply ment with lots of love and affection from a true believer in the effectivness of war.) :D
:finger:


I'm at a loss for words.:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Moppie
Also you'll notice there concerned with inocent lives, If you punch them you give up your inocence, and become a combatant, I would like to see you actualy try that, When a Mob of angry protestors are chasing you down the road you might change your mind.



You are right. The US is the angry mod chaising down that scum sucking pig fucker bin laden.

The "inocent lives" thing is the largest pile of shit I've heard of since this thing started. The people there are not "inocent". The people in a country are responsible for the actions taking place there. They've done nothing about this and have actively supported it. Are they in uprising? Are they demanding that bin laden be turned over? Are they renouncing the terrorists? Of course not. Once again I'll remind you that they have three choices. Help, get the fuck out ot die.

The world is a tough and harsh place. My life has been threatened. Fuck them. If they dont want to help stop it, I dont care how many die screaming in pain or watch their children do the same. Support the death of my family, friends and you'll get no mercy from me. I'm a strong believer in live and let live so on the flip side of that, fuck with me and prepared to get royally fucked-up yourself.

True that!

I 2nd Y-VR4's comments!

Originally posted by YogsVR4


You are right. The US is the angry mod chaising down that scum sucking pig fucker bin laden.

The "inocent lives" thing is the largest pile of shit I've heard of since this thing started. The people there are not "inocent". The people in a country are responsible for the actions taking place there. They've done nothing about this and have actively supported it. Are they in uprising? Are they demanding that bin laden be turned over? Are they renouncing the terrorists? Of course not. Once again I'll remind you that they have three choices. Help, get the fuck out ot die.

The world is a tough and harsh place. My life has been threatened. Fuck them. If they dont want to help stop it, I dont care how many die screaming in pain or watch their children do the same. Support the death of my family, friends and you'll get no mercy from me. I'm a strong believer in live and let live so on the flip side of that, fuck with me and prepared to get royally fucked-up yourself.





:ylsuper :ylsuper :ylsuper

Preach on!

Originally posted by YogsVR4


You are right. The US is the angry mod chaising down that scum sucking pig fucker bin laden.

The "inocent lives" thing is the largest pile of shit I've heard of since this thing started. The people there are not "inocent". The people in a country are responsible for the actions taking place there. They've done nothing about this and have actively supported it. Are they in uprising? Are they demanding that bin laden be turned over? Are they renouncing the terrorists? Of course not. Once again I'll remind you that they have three choices. Help, get the fuck out ot die.

The world is a tough and harsh place. My life has been threatened. Fuck them. If they dont want to help stop it, I dont care how many die screaming in pain or watch their children do the same. Support the death of my family, friends and you'll get no mercy from me. I'm a strong believer in live and let live so on the flip side of that, fuck with me and prepared to get royally fucked-up yourself.

exactly! i'll give more props :D :ylsuper :ylsuper :ylsuper

all those greenpeace supporters can go fuck a whale :D

Originally posted by YogsVR4
[B]

The "inocent lives" thing is the largest pile of shit I've heard of since this thing started. The people there are not "inocent". The people in a country are responsible for the actions taking place there. They've done nothing about this and have actively supported it. Are they in uprising? Are they demanding that bin laden be turned over? Are they renouncing the terrorists? Of course not. Once again I'll remind you that they have three choices. Help, get the fuck out ot die.
B]


That is quite posibly the most ignortant pile of shit I have ever heard regarding the whole series of events.
You clearly know nothing at all about Afganistan, its most recent history, or its culture. You are worse than the terrorists you seem to hate so much.

Try a little experiment. Throw away everything that you own except for a pair of pants and a shirt. Take a wife and 2 children into the Arozina desert, with only $2 in cash. Now try and live there, in absolute poverty for one month. If you try and leave the desert some one shoots you, and if you wander too far you walk into an unmarked mine field.
If you object even the smallest bit someone shoots you.
Randomly and for no apprent reason some one shoots at you.
I bet you couldn't even last for 2 days living like this.
Your ingornace would get you killed.

Now think about the people of Afganistan who have had to live like this for the last 30yrs, 30yrs in a hell they can not escape from. They've tried uprising, what do you think the Northern Aliance is all about? They are the the Afgan people trying to fight back, the only problem is during the 1980s they had to fight against Troops armed and trained by Americans. While they only had access to out dated Russian weapons.
Their troops were still are uneducated and under feed, while the American equiped Taliban stole all the Aid supplies, and used money given to them by the Wold bank and America.
I know Afgans at Uni, and who have managed to escape at great personal loss, and the Taliban is not surported by the Majority of the Afgan people.

Moral of my Rant: Its almost impossible to rebel against a poltical system that was Violently forced upon you by a superior fighting force when you can't even find enough food to feed your family for one day.

These people are Innocent, they have been beaten into the ground, and need help to get out agian, not hate. Hate will only lead to more hate, its what feeds terrorism.

Try actualy wartching the news, and listening to what the commentars are saying, Go do some resurch on the history of Afganistan, take note that are currently experiancing a 4yr drought, Go learn a little about Islam, and what it means to be a Muslim. Not a Fundamenalist Muslim, like a KKK member, But a regular everyday Muslim like the old lady Christain who goes to church every sunday and helps her sick neighbor.

If you want to retain the attidute you expressed above then I hope you are Victim of any future Terrorist attacks, that way maybe some of the more Educated Americans will be saved and prehaps change the worlds view of America and change Americas view of the world.

So what do you think is an appropriate course of action, Moppie?

Originally posted by Moppie

(please note that this a smart arse reply ment with lots of sarcasim from a non-believer in the effectivness of war.) :D
:finger:


Must be a fucking tree hugger.

Well Moppie, I see you're pretty much educated in this topic as am I. So what I would like to point out something that you haven't mentioned in your post.

Here we have a nation that has obviously been through a great deal more suffering than we could ever imagine. People living on the streets, make shift houses, children living in poverty. A government so forceful, that if your beard is not long enough, you can serve hard time. Amongst other attrocities that I don't care to get into, I see something that you failed to mention. Yes you are dealing with a government that is deadly in the least, but, other nations also side with that same forceful government that oppresses it's own people and deny them refuge to the ones that get out.

Let's not forget the fact that these people have been fleeing Afghanistan for many years now. Civil war aside, that is all that they can do. Now, simply as an observer, I'm seeing millions and millions of people leaving a "Country", not an area, it would definitely raise my eyebrow. Now comes the dilemna, the United States is looked down upon by many Muslim nations and as such would be considered an Infidel in their eyes. Hell, we supplied their enemies, trained them, even funded some of them. Some of their enemies actually worked for us and then left us and now have their own power(Osama Bin Laden). Osama, being the radical muslim that he is, blows a smoke screen over peoples eyes so thick, they don't want to try and see the big picture. Afraid, maybe so, but at the same time, they are so into their religion that whatever a Taliban official says, is perceived as scripture.

Supporters of the Taliban also want to make sure that they stay in power, why, because of the money that they are receiving from Drugs, Military and what have you. After doing some research, I've come to the conclusion that the United States being the only one brave enough to challenge this Regime, should wipe out the Taliban. Then let the Northern Alliance gain some control of this country and then let the people decide what government they should have. Because as you've stated in your post, "Moral of my Rant: Its almost impossible to rebel against a poltical system that was Violently forced upon you by a superior fighting force...". Now, you have Indonesia, Pakistan, Iran, and other Muslim nations condemning what the U.S. is doing. But this is not an attack on Islam, it's against that force which oppresses and puts fear in those same people that you defend. As I've stated before, I don't support anything 100%, without knowing all the facts or information. But if the United States doesn't do what it is doing now, this will only get worse.

A friend of mine who is Muslim and from Pakistan, now walks around in fear and concern. His car has American flags all over it so that they don't mess with him. He's American, he's also born and raised here. Why should he walk around in fear of getting bashed or worse, shot. While I may be mean at times, I'm not cruel. It pisses me off when I see someone who can't defend themselves, get picked on by others because they think they are superior than he. I am all for this War on Terrorism and the fuckin' Taliban. I disagree with what they say and think. But it isn't my place to put my ideals on others. The people of that country and the people alone must take that step. So if nothing else comes from this, at least I know that if that country comes to flourish, they know who the fuck they can thank for that. Same applies to all the other nations that hate the United States for what they stand for and protect.

The same way you told Yogs about his attitude and him being a victim of a terrorist attack. I pose the same scenario to you. Regardless of your beliefs, morals, etc., if New Zealand right now were under attack(God Forbid) by these terrorists, tell me right now a clean cut thought out process of resolving this issue. I'm not criticizing you in anyway, shape or form. My sole intention is to paint a bigger picture than the one you've painted.

DVS you never cease to amaze me,
Its good to know there are people like you in the US, I just hope their in positions of power, its gives me a vague sense of hope.
Its important that people see the whole picture, but to many poeple dont do what you have done and look deeper than whats presented on the surface.

Some of what I said above was a bit over the top, but Im a little sick of a lot of the misinformed Racism Iv been seing on the net and form some of the American Media.

I totaly agree with what you said above, The Taliban needs to be wiped out, and yes the US is the only nation with the spare resources to do it.
However I have problems with the current use of force, its to easy for people like Osama Bin Laden and other members of the Taliban to distort and lie to the Muslim world about the true facts of What is happening.
Its to easy for them to inflate civilian casualities, and make up stories about american attrocities that never happened.

There is a real fear that if the US does not tread lightly, then the Muslim world could turn against them, and the rest of the western world at the same time.
Especialy if they see the type of attitude expressed by certain members here.
Even the speachs made my Bush jnr are easy to edit and make into very Anti Islamic statements.

Living next to the largest Muslim Nation in the world this all makes me a little Nervous, Especialy since at the moment NZ troops make up a large part of the UN peace keeping force in East Timor. (and so our governments arnt exactly on speaking terms)

You mentioned that the Taliban needs to be wiped out the people let to choose thier new leaders, well there is a very large fear that the US will wipe out the Taliban and then leave. This would leave the country wide open to another authortiarain regime to take over.
You also have to remember that the Afgan people are probobly more patriotic than Americans.


Islam is a most interesting Religion, It can be compared to Cristianity in a lot of ways. In its most common form its is as common as what you could call an everyday Christian, some one who goes to church on a regular basis, follows the ten commandments, has a nice job, a wife and 2.4 children. Then there are the Fundlementalists, people like the KKK, or some of the crazy cults, Branch Davidians for example.

Its important that the attacks by the US are not seen as attacks on all of the Islamic faith, but merely as attacks on the unpopular extremist views. The same as the attacks on Waco were seen not as attacks on christian people, but on misguided fundlementalists.

For this to happen the US needs to show a more open and friendly attitude towards more Islamic nations, not a controling do it our way type attitude as they have done in the past. (e.g. the manipulation of the middle east for oil, and Indonesia for economic gain)

Theres a fine line between sticking up for the weak, and helping someone as a means to getting something out of them. The US likes the world to think it does the former, but in reality has only ever done the later.

How do I think the US should deal with this?
Well take all those refugees who are trying to leave the country, and rehouse and reducate them in America. There is more than enough room in the US for a few extra million people. Move them out under military escort, protect them. Those who don't like the Taliban but also dont want to leave thier home lands, should be housed and protected while the US military makes a full scale assult on the Teliban.
The poeple that are protected should not be convertd to Christianity, ther own faith should be respected. But they should also be helped, educated, etc. And let the rest of the Islamic world see this.
Us the immense power the US weilds to set up some pro America and Islam propoganda. Show the Islamic world who the Taliban really are, then when thier gone the US needs to set up an Islamic goverment in Afganistan, and monitor and control it for maybe 20yrs as they did with Germany and Japan after WW II.

The biggest problem is seperating Islam from the Taliban and from Osama bin laden. Otherwise anythin the US tries is going to be seen as an Attack on the Islamic faith, and an attack on a large and very militant chunk of the worlds population.
Its important that the christian western world does not attack the Islamic faith, and makes it clear to the Islamic world that what is being attacked is Terrorism in all its forms, no just Islamic terrorism.


And prehaps you all need to try finding some Non US based media resouces, the BBC offers a good non biased perspective.

Originally posted by Moppie
That is quite posibly the most ignortant pile of shit I have ever heard regarding the whole series of events.
You clearly know nothing at all about Afganistan, its most recent history, or its culture. You are worse than the terrorists you seem to hate so much.

I see that you are ignorant of self-determination. Its culture wants to see/support the death of my family. Clearly I am worse then that because I want to defend myself. What cockeyed thinking that is.


[/i] Try a little experiment. Throw away everything that you own except for a pair of pants and a shirt. Take a wife and 2 children into the Arozina desert, with only $2 in cash. Now try and live there, in absolute poverty for one month. If you try and leave the desert some one shoots you, and if you wander too far you walk into an unmarked mine field.
If you object even the smallest bit someone shoots you.
Randomly and for no apprent reason some one shoots at you.
I bet you couldn't even last for 2 days living like this.
Your ingornace would get you killed.

You’re right I wouldn’t last a few weeks like that. I’d get the fuck out or die trying. The fact they are in such a fuck hole has no bearing on this at all - none what so ever. So their government is repressing a people – do something about it. If that government supports the attacking of my family, then it’s going to be obliterated. Don’t think we should sit here and die because the Afgan people suck at mounting a revolution.

[/i] Now think about the people of Afganistan who have had to live like this for the last 30yrs, 30yrs in a hell they can not escape from.

Think of Americans dieing because we fail to stop the motherfuckers who have killed us and have threatened to kill more.

[/i] They've tried uprising, what do you think the Northern Aliance is all about? They are the the Afgan people trying to fight back, the only problem is during the 1980s they had to fight against Troops armed and trained by Americans. While they only had access to out dated Russian weapons.
Their troops were still are uneducated and under feed, while the American equiped Taliban stole all the Aid supplies, and used money given to them by the Wold bank and America.
I know Afgans at Uni, and who have managed to escape at great personal loss, and the Taliban is not surported by the Majority of the Afgan people.

Again, what does this have to do with us defending ourselves? By your way of thinking, if a group of Americans borrowed some heavy equipment from the US military and started to blow the hell out of China they wouldn’t fight back. Our government could simply say, “It wasn’t sponsored by the government and we don’t plan on doing anything about it, so don’t attack us.” Obviously that’s a bunch of fucking horseshit.


[/i] Moral of my Rant: Its almost impossible to rebel against a poltical system that was Violently forced upon you by a superior fighting force when you can't even find enough food to feed your family for one day.

Guess what - I feel sorry for the bastards. I really do. However, its come down to them or my family. That being the case, fuck them. I’d rather see the whole country turned to glass then to see my family suffer.


[/i] These people are Innocent, they have been beaten into the ground, and need help to get out agian, not hate. Hate will only lead to more hate, its what feeds terrorism.

Try actualy wartching the news, and listening to what the commentars are saying, Go do some resurch on the history of Afganistan, take note that are currently experiancing a 4yr drought, Go learn a little about Islam, and what it means to be a Muslim. Not a Fundamenalist Muslim, like a KKK member, But a regular everyday Muslim like the old lady Christain who goes to church every sunday and helps her sick neighbor.

Did I say anything about targeting muslims? Hell no. The miserable mother fuckers who perpetrated this and those who support them need to be annihilated. The people of Afganistan need to help in their rebellion, flee or die. There is no other option.

[/i] If you want to retain the attidute you expressed above then I hope you are Victim of any future Terrorist attacks, that way maybe some of the more Educated Americans will be saved and prehaps change the worlds view of America and change Americas view of the world.

Fuck you. Wish death on me? Up your ass you useless fuckwad cocksucker! We need to sit here and take it? Fuck that. We were fucking attacked you dimwitted asswipe! Get it though your thick skull. I can only hope that someday some you have to go through this and see how well you moral superior attitude holds up.

So let me end by saying FUCK YOU

Originally posted by Moppie
DVS you never cease to amaze me,
Its good to know there are people like you in the US, I just hope their in positions of power, its gives me a vague sense of hope.

Thanks!:D

I totaly agree with what you said above, The Taliban needs to be wiped out, and yes the US is the only nation with the spare resources to do it.
However I have problems with the current use of force, its to easy for people like Osama Bin Laden and other members of the Taliban to distort and lie to the Muslim world about the true facts of What is happening.
Its to easy for them to inflate civilian casualities, and make up stories about american attrocities that never happened.

To this I say, that is why the U.S. needs to, without compromising ongoing operations, to inform the public of exactly what it is doing. Now I know it is impossible to do this, but with what is going on over there with the people being misinformed, the U.S. has to take a proactive approach to let the Afghans and Muslims in general know what is taking place. But in that same note Moppie, understand that the people need to also make themselves aware that their government can and is misleading them. All the proof in the world is not going to convince them if they only believe what their government is saying.

There is a real fear that if the US does not tread lightly, then the Muslim world could turn against them, and the rest of the western world at the same time.
Especialy if they see the type of attitude expressed by certain members here.
Even the speachs made my Bush jnr are easy to edit and make into very Anti Islamic statements.

That is something that no matter what the U.S. does, they will always misinterpret and confuse the people.

Living next to the largest Muslim Nation in the world this all makes me a little Nervous, Especialy since at the moment NZ troops make up a large part of the UN peace keeping force in East Timor. (and so our governments arnt exactly on speaking terms)

Investing in a fallout shelter would be in order.:D

You mentioned that the Taliban needs to be wiped out the people let to choose thier new leaders, well there is a very large fear that the US will wipe out the Taliban and then leave. This would leave the country wide open to another authortiarain regime to take over.
You also have to remember that the Afgan people are probobly more patriotic than Americans.

That my friend is far from the case. The U.S. right now has contact with among others, the former leader, I forget his name, and the Northern Alliance themselves. But whose to say which one would be better. That would be up to the people as I previously stated. The U.S. cannot and should not make that decision. As it can be easily interpreted as the "West" interfering with their way of living. We should only provide the corridor, they need to walk through it.


Its important that the attacks by the US are not seen as attacks on all of the Islamic faith, but merely as attacks on the unpopular extremist views. The same as the attacks on Waco were seen not as attacks on christian people, but on misguided fundlementalists.

For this to happen the US needs to show a more open and friendly attitude towards more Islamic nations, not a controling do it our way type attitude as they have done in the past. (e.g. the manipulation of the middle east for oil, and Indonesia for economic gain)

Unfortunately, this is one of my disagreements with this country. The U.S. for all it's good, in my opinion, meddles too much in other countries business. I'm sorry, but the way I feel is this, we have enough problems within our borders to play the police of the world. So many things going on here and yet, our attention is overseas to preserve our "Interests". I know not a lot of people see it that way, but it is true. If two countries are going at each others throats, by all means, let them kill each other. What is my government doing for me and people who are homeless here. Unemployment, Hunger, Poverty, we have that and they don't fix it. It's always spend money here, spend money there, etc. I'm not a politician, I'm a businessman. 24hrs a day, 7 days a week, all year round, I look and treat everything as a business. You'd be surprised how everything revolves on one form or another, a business. In the end, you make a decision and hope for the best.

Theres a fine line between sticking up for the weak, and helping someone as a means to getting something out of them. The US likes the world to think it does the former, but in reality has only ever done the later.

See previous comment:D

How do I think the US should deal with this?
Well take all those refugees who are trying to leave the country, and rehouse and reducate them in America. There is more than enough room in the US for a few extra million people. Move them out under military escort, protect them. Those who don't like the Taliban but also dont want to leave thier home lands, should be housed and protected while the US military makes a full scale assult on the Teliban.
The poeple that are protected should not be convertd to Christianity, ther own faith should be respected. But they should also be helped, educated, etc. And let the rest of the Islamic world see this.
Us the immense power the US weilds to set up some pro America and Islam propoganda. Show the Islamic world who the Taliban really are, then when thier gone the US needs to set up an Islamic goverment in Afganistan, and monitor and control it for maybe 20yrs as they did with Germany and Japan after WW II.

We're not as big as you may think we are. Like I previously said, there are a lot of things that are going on in here that the U.S. leaves out in informing the general public. I definitely don't think that the U.S. should install the government over there but provide the ability for one to form of the people.

The biggest problem is seperating Islam from the Taliban and from Osama bin laden. Otherwise anythin the US tries is going to be seen as an Attack on the Islamic faith, and an attack on a large and very militant chunk of the worlds population.
Its important that the christian western world does not attack the Islamic faith, and makes it clear to the Islamic world that what is being attacked is Terrorism in all its forms, no just Islamic terrorism.


And prehaps you all need to try finding some Non US based media resouces, the BBC offers a good non biased perspective.



I need a drink!:D

Originally posted by YogsVR4

So let me end by saying FUCK YOU


good finish :D
I agree with you 100% yogs

wasn't this a topic about knocking out tree huggers?

Originally posted by Moppie
Well take all those refugees who are trying to leave the country, and rehouse and reducate them in America. There is more than enough room in the US for a few extra million people.


yeah okay, whatever man
why would we want to take them into our country and lose millions of dollars on them? It's not our fault they're in that bad situation. That would ruin the economy
U.S. doesn't equal Jesus... sorry
why doesn't your country do that? because it would be a stupid move

Originally posted by gang$tarr


why doesn't your country do that? because it would be a stupid move

Becaasue the State of New York has more land area, and more natural resources than our whole country.
Go learn some high school geography.




Thank you DVS, its nice to have rational discussion about things some times.

You made some good and very valid points. They are all True, and all hold a lot of weight, I even agree with most of them.
(especialy that the US should sort out its own problems first, which as you mentioned are far greater than man Americans realise)

I do however disagree with how you feel the war should be conducted, but thats one of those issues where we won't know the right or wrong of, till its over. At the moment we can only have differnt opinions on it.
(not that we have any control over it anyway)

But one thing is certain, what is occuring at the moment will cause a major Global change for the futrure.
And we are witnessing what will become one of the most significant events in the History of Global civilisation.


DVS I do hope that your in the majority of US citizens, But I fear from what I see here and else where that it is people with closed minds and cave man type attitudes, that rule.


Yogs, your more than welcome to your opionion, but just remeber that Violince will only attract violince, and your flirting dangerously with some of the most violent people in History. They also out number the US population 4-1.
I suggest you try and find some reading or prehaps a kids story video on cultures out side of your own, we live in a very diverse world, American only makes up a very small part of it, and unless everybody can learn to tolerate each other then DVS's crack about building a fall out shelter could have more meaning than it was intended to carry.

Originally posted by Moppie


Becaasue the State of New York has more land area, and more natural resources than our whole country.
Go learn some high school geography.

Yogs, your more than welcome to your opionion, but just remeber that Violince will only attract violince, and your flirting dangerously with some of the most violent people in History. They also out number the US population 4-1.
I suggest you try and find some reading or prehaps a kids story video on cultures out side of your own, we live in a very diverse world, American only makes up a very small part of it, and unless everybody can learn to tolerate each other then DVS's crack about building a fall out shelter could have more meaning than it was intended to carry.

oh my... this was just too funny moppie
You're tellin me to learn some high school geography..... you know what? I think YOU need to learn some high school ENGLISH!! haha
learn to spell Violence i don't think that's a typo, cause you wrote it twice!
before you tell me to get schooling, i think you should first :finger:

and all i'm saying is that it would be stupid to take millions of people into new york and educate them, and feed them.... why don't we wipe their ass for them too? I don't mean to sound harsh here, but what the hell do you think we are? freakin Jesus?

and another thing, wow they out number us 4-1.... what does that matter? really? are they going to throw rocks at us? or maybe try to get sticks and whack us when we go there? That was the stupidest arguement.... maybe you should do some research on the shape of their military

i'm not really tryin to flame you or anything but i just had to comment on these things

Originally posted by Moppie

Yogs, your more than welcome to your opionion, but just remeber that Violince will only attract violince, and your flirting dangerously with some of the most violent people in History. They also out number the US population 4-1.
I suggest you try and find some reading or prehaps a kids story video on cultures out side of your own, we live in a very diverse world, American only makes up a very small part of it, and unless everybody can learn to tolerate each other then DVS's crack about building a fall out shelter could have more meaning than it was intended to carry.

We are all entitled to our opinions. You seem to be under the mistaken assumption that I dont know abuot the rest of the world. Sure there are things that I do not know. However, I've been a histroy buff since I was in college all those years ago. No shit, there are lots of different cultures out there. My finace happens to be Chinese although she was raised in Korea unil she moved to the states fifteen years ago (we are both in our thirties). My grandparents are from finland on my moms side and my fathers side is American Indian. Don't presume to lecture me on "different cultures" With that said, I am a big believe in live and let live, but fuck with me and you will pay. Kill my relatives and prepare to be treated in kind.

To many people sit around the world condeming everything, stand for nothing and cower in fear of one thing or another. I stand up for my family, friends and country. Are we perfect, hardly, but we also are not cattle to be slaughtered without acting because it might "upset" someone whos been brainwashed in wanting us dead in the first place.

Originally posted by YogsVR4

With that said, I am a big believe in live and let live, but fuck with me and you will pay. Kill my relatives and prepare to be treated in kind.


And herein lies the problem I have with what you've said about attacking Afganistan. Its not the Afgan people that want to hurt you, and its not the Islamic faith that wants to hurt you.
Its a VERY small minority of the population that harbors a mis guided hatred for the Western world, and see's America as the strongest symbol of western power. They dont just hate you, they also hate me and my family as well. And if the shit hits the fan, I stand a much greater chance of being activly invovled than you do. (unless your a frount line combat soilder in the US military.)

Hate the Taliban, and hate all forms of terrorism, but dont hate the Afgan people, they are as innocent a victim as you are.
If you cant see that then you are being ignorant.

Originally posted by Moppie


And herein lies the problem I have with what you've said about attacking Afganistan. Its not the Afgan people that want to hurt you, and its not the Islamic faith that wants to hurt you.


uhh, notice how we're only attacking taliban locations? like military installations and air strips... we're not attacking afgans

and what you said about only the taliban and a small minority hating the U.S. , that is somewhat ignorant.... notice all the celebrating palestinians and other people all over the middle east celebrating that innocent americans have died.... and it's not only people in the middle east, there are people that live in the U.S. and in Canada that are saying fuck USA
and that just pisses me off more than anything, if they hate the U.S. why did they move here, why don't they take their asses back to their poor country and live in cave

Originally posted by gang$tarr
[B]

uhh, notice how we're only attacking taliban locations? like military installations and air strips... we're not attacking afgans

Yes, But try and tell that to the Civilians who are being killed by the missiles that miss, and the Afgan people who only see American planes dropping bombs on thier country.
Imagine if you lived in a Town almost totaly inhabbited by KKK members, and you were one of only a few non members. The FBI comes in shooting trying to get the KKK members and accidently, shoots up your car. Would you pissed off at the FBI? or would you just sit back and say, "Oh thats alright, they didnt mean to". Now imagine if it was a family member who got shot?

notice all the celebrating palestinians and other people all over the middle east celebrating that innocent americans have died.... and it's not only people in the middle east, there are people that live in the U.S. and in Canada that are saying fuck USA
[B]

Damn, you really need to try and listen to the news as well as watching it, and DONT BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU SEE ON TV!!!!!!!!!!! Your as much a victim of brainwashing as the terrorists, and the MINORITY of people who think Osama is right.
In pakistan there have been a lot of protests but 17,000 people out of a country of over 125million does not constitute a majority.
The same is true all over the world.
There will always be groups of people who will protest any decision, no mater much surport it may gather, but they are merely a Vocal minority. The silent majority, now matter what there numbers, does not attract News coverage, because it makes for poor ratings.

And just becuse someone Hates you is no reason to attack and kill them. Its only when they threaten you life that you have a right to defend yourself. But remember Hating them back merely gives them more of a reason to hate you enough to attack you.

If there is ever going to be a chance for peace on this pathetic little planet, then we must learn to tolorate people who have different beliefs to us.

The point that is being made is being missed, especially by you GS.

What is being debated is not that the retaliation not be taken. I'm affected by this thing more than you can imagine. Hell, I live near the damn buildings so speaking as someone who's actually in the vicinity, I want some retribution. But I'm not going to wipe out a whole country for an ignorant minority.

You see, The Taliban has brainwashed a bunch of folks out there. Yeah, I saw those Palestinians celebrating in the streets when the incident ocurred. I was angered beyond anything comprehensible. But my anger and vengeance is directed to those that misguided these people into believing that we are a cruel and unpractical world. In an example that Moppie used, understand that these people have American warplanes dropping bombs, American missles hitting targets, troops armed to the teeth with American weapons. Let's say for all intents and purposes to this discussion, you're one of them. Now remember one very important fact that you are not getting. You're not allowed to express your own thoughts or ideals. With that said, now you see these things happening in your country, you would hate America too. The government is telling you that they are being attacked through unprovoked circumstances. You would immediately take their word and want to fight back against America.

This is the impression that most Muslims deal with. They mainly on only deal with their Religion. Their religion dictates what actions they take. We in the free and civilized world are able to think for ourselves and therefore, have the luxury to say if we don't like something, fuck it.

Yogs point is not a mute one in that, if he's attacked, he's going to bite. I understand his anger and know that it is not aimed at the general populous. These people have been fleeing their own country for years and no one here has ever heard of this till the Sept.11 incident. Now everyone is seeing what is going on over their and wondering what they can do to help.

Hopefully, these terrorist organizations can be dismantled for good(wishful thinking) and never be brought back to existence.

A nice post Doc, you summed it all up perfectly. :cool:

Just going to add a little thought that came to me while reading it.

In our free western world religion and goverment are mostly seperated. (not totally, as our laws and ideals tend to come from jeudo-christian thought) but generaly we sperate our religeous and our political beliefs.
In the Islamic world there is no seperation. Thier culture is one where thier religious beliefs and thier political system are the same thing, and so they tend to see the west the same way. (and vice-versa)

Originally posted by Moppie

And just becuse someone Hates you is no reason to attack and kill them. Its only when they threaten you life that you have a right to defend yourself. But remember Hating them back merely gives them more of a reason to hate you enough to attack you.

If there is ever going to be a chance for peace on this pathetic little planet, then we must learn to tolorate people who have different beliefs to us.

uhh they don't just hate us, they did attack us

and we do tolerate people with different beliefs, i think north america is the most multicultural continent in the world, they don't tolerate OUR beliefs
i know lots of muslim people, i don't discriminate against them

and both of you guys don't understand what i'm saying.... I never said bomb their whole country (in this thread :) )
and it's not just a tiny minority that hates america, i bet well over 1/2 of the population of middle eastern countries hate america. Even people from middle-eastern origin in north america hate the U.S.
did you see that gathering of anti-america people in pakistan? there were a TON of people there probably most people in the city were there

and i don't care that they hate the U.S. i'm not going to attack them, i just want to attack the taliban and get bin laden, cause they carried out action. I don't care about somebodies opinion of hating america, but if they attacked america then i will retaliate
i pretty much feel the same as yogs

Originally posted by gang$tarr

did you see that gathering of anti-america people in pakistan? there were a TON of people there probably most people in the city were there


GO reread my post, and then read the docs post.

According to both the BBC and ABC there only about 15-17,000 people gathering in Pakistan to protest their cooperating with the US.
In a country with a population of over 125million people (half the US population) thats a pretty small minority. I could find a much larger group in the US who think that teaching evolution in school is a bad thing. They are a small number of fanatics, amonst a majority of moderates. Under Islamic law Osama would be tried for Murder, and prombtly executed. In fact many (non-taliban) Islamic leaders have offered to do it, but the US has turned them down.

North America is not the most multicultural continent, in fact its up there with being pretty moncultural if get down and examine it. Europe would be the most multicultural continent, followed by the asian sub-continent.

Originally posted by Moppie

In a country with a population of over 125million people (half the US population) thats a pretty small minority.

North America is not the most multicultural continent, in fact its up there with being pretty moncultural if get down and examine it. Europe would be the most multicultural continent, followed by the asian sub-continent.

aright first, in a poor country how do you expect everybody to get to the anti-american thing? It was just people out of that city.... and don't tell me that every person in the middle-east or pakistan that hates america was there.... cause i'm sure that protest was a tiny minority of the U.S. haters

Canada is known as the most multicultural country in the world
and hell no all of europe is not even close to multi cultural... i've been to lots of places in europe.. when i went to Germany i probably saw like 5 black people there during the WHOLE trip! Each country has it's own group of people, there are like no multi-cultural countries in europe... the most multicultural is probably the U.K.
while here i see hundreds of black people, muslims, asians and every possible culture, EVERY single day

Originally posted by gang$tarr


Canada is known as the most multicultural country in the world
and hell no all of europe is not even close to multi cultural... i've been to lots of places in europe.. when i went to Germany i probably saw like 5 black people there during the WHOLE trip! Each country has it's own group of people, there are like no multi-cultural countries in europe... the most multicultural is probably the U.K.
while here i see hundreds of black people, muslims, asians and every possible culture, EVERY single day


Gee, that means you saw every single person for any given country!:rolleyes:

The US is hardly a monocultureal society. Here is the population breakdown. Remember, white is lumped together although it ranges from Irish, Sweeds, English, German, Russian and a host of others under "white". Places in Europe, when white is mentioned, it is mostly that countries white population. So the "white" percentage here is misleading to the number of cultures it comes from. The same goes for the "black" population. They are from many differing cultures in Africa.

White ..................................... 211,460,626 75.1
Black or African American ................... 34,658,190 12.3
American Indian and Alaska Native ..... ... 2,475,956 0.9
Asian .................................... 10,242,998 3.6
Asian Indian ............................ 1,678,765 0.6
Chinese ................................ 2,432,585 0.9
Filipino ................................. 1,850,314 0.7
Japanese ............................... 796,700 0.3
Korean ................................. 1,076,872 0.4
Vietnamese ............................. 1,122,528 0.4
Other Asian ........................... 1,285,234 0.5
Native Hawaiian......................... 140,652 +
Chamorro .................. 58,240 +
Samoan................................ 91,029 +
Other Pacific Islander .................. 108,914 = 0.1
other race ........................... 15,359,073 5.5
Mexican ................................... 20,640,711 7.3
PuertoRican ............................... 3,406,178 1.2
Cuban .................................... 1,241,685 0.4
Other Hispanic or Latino .................... 10,017,244 3.6

To say this is monocultural is not to understand the US at all. Canadas population would adjust these numbers slightly but considering the population differences in whole numbers, its adjustments would be small. US - 281,421,906 Canada 30,750,087

Mexico at 101,879,171 would impact the number significantly. There are a large number of differring ethnicities and cultures that are part of Mexico. They are hardly monocultural.

www.census.gov
www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/People/popula.htm#pop
www.encarta.msn.com/find/concise.asp?mod=1&ti=062DF000&page=2

I dont know where you are getting your numbers from. If you want to consider a whole continent, then yeah, its probably more monocultural, but they sure dont live together under the same rules as they do in the three principle countries of North America. We've learned and continue to learn to live with and appreciate each other. Can the same be said of China and South Korea? India and Pakistan? Thialand and Japan? Indonesia with itself? Bosnia? Ireland and Britian? Russia and Chechnia? Turkey and Greece? Shall I go on? Its clear that there is a wide variety among those continents population, but they play worse together then the do in North America.

Thank you Yogs for the FACTS. Now, GS, what do you have?:rolleyes:

Originally posted by DVSNCYNIKL



Gee, that means you saw every single person for any given country!:rolleyes:

that's the stupidest reply i could have thought of....
i don't need to see every single person in a country, i went all over the damn countries, what are all the people of different cultures hiding? I've been to alot of countries in europe and each country has mainly one type of people (except for the U.K they were pretty multi-cultural, compared to the others)
So i went to Germany and during the WHOLE trip i only saw like 4 black people... but they're still multi-cultural right? :rolleyes: It was like that in almost every country, it was mostly one group of people

Originally posted by DVSNCYNIKL
Thank you Yogs for the FACTS. Now, GS, what do you have?:rolleyes:

i didn't mean continent... i was basically talkin about Canada, the U.S. is almost as multi-cultural... I mean like compare the U.S. or Canada to any other country, not continent

and yogs said we're not monocultural
Don't tell me you haven't heard that Canada is the most multi-cultural country in the world, that's what this country always brags about

hey DVS, based on those facts that Yogs gave.. what other country in the whole world has as big a diversity of people?

Hey GS, Guess what the colour of someone's skin does not dertermine thier cultural beliefs. If you think it does, then your practising racisim.

GS is right that Canada is one of the most Multicultural societys, but its not the most. It is a favourite destinaitoin for a lot of people fleeing places like South Africa, India. However the Climate is a bit of a turn off.

Here in New Zealand we have an even larger multicultural society. There are people living here from all the pasfic islands, all the countries in the Aisan region, a lot of people from the Middle east, people from all of Europe, as well as Candadians, and Americans.
At my University, as a White male of European decent, I am in the Minority.
However the Europe has an even wider selection of different peoples. Just becasue most have white skin, dosnt mean they have different cultural beliefs. Combine this with all the different people from around the world who moved to Europe and you get the most Multicultural continent. (remeber that the UK is part of Europe)

GS Germany is a very poor example, its treatment of immigrants is not exactly world class, however even with in Germany, there are great regional difference between people.



Now a bit thats on Topic.
One of the many reasons, a lot of Islamic people see the attacks on the Teliban as an attack on Islam, and so don't like the US.

As I said earlier a western capitalist society seperates it Religion and Government. This means law's are made by men, and can be changed and altered.
However an Islamci country does not seperate the religion and government. Laws are not allowed to be deicied by men, but are siad to come from "god".
By attacking the Teliban, the US is attacking the Ideals and beliefs of the Teliban. However the Islamic people don't see the ideals and beliefs of the Teliban as being the ideals and beliefs of men.
They see them as being the ideals and beliefs of God.
So attacking the teliban is the same as attacking thier god. (which by the way is the god of Abraham, who is also the god of the jews, and so the same god who sent his son jesus.)

The US, to be succesfull needs to seperate the Taliban from the religion.
This is hard to do, and requires a huge shift in thinking on the part of the both Americans, and Muslims.
The only way I can see it happening, is to get the rest of the Islamic world to see the Talibans interprataion of the Koran as being Incorrect, and so turn the Islamic world against them, in the same way the Christian world is turned against fundamentalist christian groups like the KKK.
There is already a movment of this kind amongst the more moderate islamic people, especialy those who want to join the western world, and see the radical interprations of the Koran as preventing that.

Rember under a moderate interpration of Islam, peace is promoted as much as it is in moderate Christianity, and just the same under a Fundamental interpration of Christianity Violence against your enemys is as accepted as it is in a Fundamental interpration of Islam.

Moppie, there's like a ton of media coverage in the U.S. right now that's all telling Americans the we are not at war with Islam, we are not at war with the Afgan people. The media here is going out of it's way to explain this to the general public.

Originally posted by jay@af
Moppie, there's like a ton of media coverage in the U.S. right now that's all telling Americans the we are not at war with Islam, we are not at war with the Afgan people. The media here is going out of it's way to explain this to the general public.

You slightly missed my Point Jay, (and im very disapointed. :( )

The problem is that due to differences in beliefs and perceptions of the world, a lot of Mulims think that the US by waging a war aginst the Taliban, is attacking the beliefs and values of all Muslims. This is of course, false, but they don't see that.
The problem isn't with the US perception of Islam, but Islams perceprion of the US.
Its no good making a huge point in the US media about how thier only attacking the Taliban, if only a small number of Muslims see it.

Originally posted by Moppie

GS is right that Canada is one of the most Multicultural societys, but its not the most. It is a favourite destinaitoin for a lot of people fleeing places like South Africa, India. However the Climate is a bit of a turn off.


climate? where i live, it's right inbetween michigin and new york. The climate here is just the same as most of the U.S. except for the really south states. During the summer it was always over 85*F and there were a couple days at or above a 100*F :eek: it was HOT!! in celcius that would mean it was around 30*C most of the time and it was up to like 37*C a couple days (that's not really accurate, but just a guess) i remember lookin at the humidex on the weather channels and they were over 40*C often
it gets cold in the winter but not any colder than most of the states... like it never goes under -10*C

Originally posted by gang$tarr


it gets cold in the winter but not any colder than most of the states... like it never goes under -10*C

If your from a country a little closer to the equator, or even a little more Temporate, then that is way to cold. Here we will get maybe 2-3 days where its at 0C for about an hour in the morning, then a high of about 8.
In the summer we get peaks in the mid 30s but thats only for a few days. Mostly our average temp is around 21degrees C

It certainly never gets cold enough here to snow. You have to goto the lower south island for that.

Originally posted by Moppie


If your from a country a little closer to the equator, or even a little more Temporate, then that is way to cold. Here we will get maybe 2-3 days where its at 0C for about an hour in the morning, then a high of about 8.
In the summer we get peaks in the mid 30s but thats only for a few days. Mostly our average temp is around 21degrees C

It certainly never gets cold enough here to snow. You have to goto the lower south island for that.

oh, i know that!! I wasn't comparing it to NZ.. i was comparing it to the U.S.
but it's a really good climate compared to countries that aren't really south (well north if you're down under)
like compared to England, Russia, Germany, etc.
you guys don't have as much variation in temperature too because the air current from the ocean warms up the land surface, and it takes alot longer to get warmer or cooler, because than the water has to get warmer or cooler.... and it's hard for the water to get really cold, cause the suns always shining on it

Where is that god damn "Quit changing the fucking subject picture" when you need it.

Originally posted by YogsVR4
Where is that god damn "Quit changing the fucking subject picture" when you need it. http://www.users.qwest.net/~bkc3/+junk/stopsubject.jpg

Originally posted by jay@af
http://www.users.qwest.net/~bkc3/+junk/stopsubject.jpg

Much obliged!