Weird idle then stalls
Blaiser17
12-22-2007, 08:53 PM
Ok well I have a 91 camaro RS. I recently have done a tune up (plugs, wires, distributor, rotor). If my car is run at idle at lights and stop signs too long the idle will begin to sputter, and then the RPM's will slowly drop until the car stalls. When I pull up to a stop and I hear it start to sputter, if I throw the car into park for the entire stop, it will idle fine. I do not understand why it would do this. Sometimes this fails, but most of the time it works. I do also think that I might have vapor lock. Air is blown out of the gas cap when I loosen it sometimes. I do not know what could be the cause of all this. Possibly a clogged catalytic converter, bad idle air control, pcv valve, vacuum leak, tps sensor, or fuel pump. I recently have had the fuel lines replaced along with the fuel filter, and the injectors have been cleaned. I was hoping that someone might be able to point me in the right direction before I just go replacing everything. Your responses are more than appreciated. Thank you in advance.
wrightz28
12-26-2007, 04:45 PM
This all started after the 'tuen-up' ? Retrace your steps, make sure your plug wires are in the corrrect order, and fully seated.
Vapor lock does not occur with sealed port injection.
Vapor lock does not occur with sealed port injection.
Blaiser17
12-27-2007, 11:28 AM
No, this was occurring before the tune-up. If it's not vapor lock, then why is air blown from the gas cap? It make a big "whoosh" noise. I have a feeling I have to replace the fuel pump. Once my new fuel pump/injection tester comes in maybe I'll know.
wrightz28
12-27-2007, 04:10 PM
, then why is air blown from the gas cap? It make a big "whoosh" noise. .
Because the system is sealed with the pressure ahving nowhere to go. You have sealed tank systems and vented systems, which have a vented gas cap in which this phenomina does not occur.
Vapro lock is a condition in which air/fuel vapor is trapped in the lines and starves the motor of fuel.
Definately get your hands on a fuel pressure gauge, a must have tool.
Is it safe to assume that the check engine light is not on?
Because the system is sealed with the pressure ahving nowhere to go. You have sealed tank systems and vented systems, which have a vented gas cap in which this phenomina does not occur.
Vapro lock is a condition in which air/fuel vapor is trapped in the lines and starves the motor of fuel.
Definately get your hands on a fuel pressure gauge, a must have tool.
Is it safe to assume that the check engine light is not on?
Blaiser17
12-27-2007, 05:20 PM
Yea, I have a gauge coming in, I ordered it it should be in by tomorrow. It is a must have though, you're very right. The check engine light is not on tho, you're right. It only comes on when I leave the car run at idle in park for more than 10 minutes. Other than that it never comes on.
Thanks so much for filling me in about the sealed system, I did not realize that at all. I was worrying about something that wasn't a problem at all haha. I'll definitely let you know what my fuel pressure is when I get the tool. How hard is it to drop the tank and get the fuel pump? Any tips if I have to do that?
Thanks so much for filling me in about the sealed system, I did not realize that at all. I was worrying about something that wasn't a problem at all haha. I'll definitely let you know what my fuel pressure is when I get the tool. How hard is it to drop the tank and get the fuel pump? Any tips if I have to do that?
Blaiser17
02-11-2008, 11:10 PM
Well I have finally had the chance of checking my fuel pressure and it is 42 psi. It's steady there all the time, it even holds for about 20 minutes after the car is off to let me know there are no leaky injectors. The idle has not been as bad lately but I think it has something to do with the temperature. I still have the problem of the check engine light coming on about 10 minutes after the car is idling warm. I think it may have something to do with the catalytic converter.
wrightz28
02-12-2008, 09:17 AM
If it's were a catalytic problem, it would make itself apparent under load when exhuast flow is heavier.
Atleast now we can rule out fuel, hooking up a gauge, is a whole lot easier than assuming it's a pump an dspending a long day on it for nothing huh? :lol:
Can you sitll not get a trouble code out if it?
Atleast now we can rule out fuel, hooking up a gauge, is a whole lot easier than assuming it's a pump an dspending a long day on it for nothing huh? :lol:
Can you sitll not get a trouble code out if it?
Blaiser17
02-12-2008, 01:17 PM
Yea you are definitely right about just testing it instead of going wild and crazy and buying stuff I don't need :lol2:
I know I can smell rotten eggs sometimes, but the converter never glows at night or seems to get crappy under load. The only evidence would be that smell, but this I still do not believe is the root of the problem. I was searching on here and found that the ICM could be bad. Does this sound about right?
I have an OBD II, but I'll get my hands on an OBD I to see what code is thrown when the check engine light comes on. With my luck though that'll take days cause it's only once in a while that it'll come on. It's like that car has a mind of it's own. But the code should still be stored from the previous times right?
I know I can smell rotten eggs sometimes, but the converter never glows at night or seems to get crappy under load. The only evidence would be that smell, but this I still do not believe is the root of the problem. I was searching on here and found that the ICM could be bad. Does this sound about right?
I have an OBD II, but I'll get my hands on an OBD I to see what code is thrown when the check engine light comes on. With my luck though that'll take days cause it's only once in a while that it'll come on. It's like that car has a mind of it's own. But the code should still be stored from the previous times right?
wrightz28
02-12-2008, 01:32 PM
I have an OBD II, but I'll get my hands on an OBD I to see what code is thrown when the check engine light comes on.
Umm, you odn't need to buy a "scanner" for OBDI, can you say paperclip or jumper wire? :rofl:
Seriously, that's all you need there.
I got to thinking on your previous post and I'm leaning a little further more on a bum CTS (coolant temp sensor), it would explain why it 'seems temp related' and the excess fuel being dumped (which make sure it hasn't contaminated your oil with fuel. :eek: )
Umm, you odn't need to buy a "scanner" for OBDI, can you say paperclip or jumper wire? :rofl:
Seriously, that's all you need there.
I got to thinking on your previous post and I'm leaning a little further more on a bum CTS (coolant temp sensor), it would explain why it 'seems temp related' and the excess fuel being dumped (which make sure it hasn't contaminated your oil with fuel. :eek: )
Blaiser17
02-12-2008, 04:23 PM
Ok well I did the paper clip thing, I got a code 45. Which means oxygen sensor rich. Is this the root of the problem or just something else?
wrightz28
02-12-2008, 04:31 PM
.
I got to thinking on your previous post and I'm leaning a little further more on a bum CTS (coolant temp sensor), it would explain why it 'seems temp related' and the excess fuel being dumped )
Maybe a cause and effect. .
I got to thinking on your previous post and I'm leaning a little further more on a bum CTS (coolant temp sensor), it would explain why it 'seems temp related' and the excess fuel being dumped )
Maybe a cause and effect. .
Blaiser17
02-21-2008, 11:50 AM
Ok well I replaced the coolant sensor about 4 days ago. Since then the car has puttered at idle a lot, but it did not actually stall out, so I figured maybe the sensor was the key. Well I took the car for a longer drive today it puttered every time it came to a stop. When I came home it stalled out as I parked in the driveway. So it appears I still have the same problem. No codes were thrown at all. Although the new sensor did make the rich fuel ratio code go away! So I guess thats one small thing to be excited about. Any more ideas on how I might go about this? I'm pretty stumped. If it has fuel, has spark, has power...whats left? Some time next week I am going to hollow out the cat, I'm sure it won't make a huge difference when the car still wants to stall out all the time.
wrightz28
02-21-2008, 12:14 PM
If you bought a Wells sensor, i have had some be bad out of the box so keep that in mind.
And, if it were running that rich beofre, the O2 may still be fouled up and causing the "sputter effect". $20 well spent (I always replace mine every tune up, cheap and easy).
A tankful of quality gas and injector cleaner might also help clear thing up too. :thumbsup:
And, if it were running that rich beofre, the O2 may still be fouled up and causing the "sputter effect". $20 well spent (I always replace mine every tune up, cheap and easy).
A tankful of quality gas and injector cleaner might also help clear thing up too. :thumbsup:
Blaiser17
02-21-2008, 12:26 PM
Well I just went out to leave to go to work, and the car stalls about 5 seconds after it starts.
The sensor was not a Wells, it was a BWD automotive. So I guess thats a plus. The car has half a tank of new gas I got yesterday and I've been running lucas fuel cleaner everytime I fill up.
I don't know what the problem could be, any other ideas?
Thanks for keepin on trying to help me wrightz28!
I'm going to get a new O2 sensor tomorrow then when I can use my parents' car.
The sensor was not a Wells, it was a BWD automotive. So I guess thats a plus. The car has half a tank of new gas I got yesterday and I've been running lucas fuel cleaner everytime I fill up.
I don't know what the problem could be, any other ideas?
Thanks for keepin on trying to help me wrightz28!
I'm going to get a new O2 sensor tomorrow then when I can use my parents' car.
wrightz28
02-21-2008, 12:32 PM
Hey no problem. We'll get this thing licked.
Blaiser17
05-25-2008, 01:38 AM
Ok, I'm finally back. School is out and as you said wright, I am ready t get this thing licked. Replaced the O2 sensor worked to no avail. Car still cranks and sometimes seems as though it will start and then just doesn't. Battery is charged, fuel pressure is good, and I can hear the pump kick on and off. I'm starting to lean towards VATS. I have a bypass coming in soon. Tomorrow I'm going to check out the MAF, TPS...again, ignition control module, and ignition pickup. If none of these things seem to kick the issue, the only thing I think to be left would be ECM and fuel injectors. But I'll keep you updated.
Now we begin....ROUND 2
Now we begin....ROUND 2
Blaiser17
05-25-2008, 01:00 PM
Well I went out today and checked out the TPS, and MAP. They seem to be working fine. To tell if the MAP is bad you just disconnect and it see if it runs better, right? And the TPS should work the same? Although I did try adjusting the TPS, but nothing different really happened.
As for how it sounds, it still wants to start but just won't. I have an AC Delco fuel pump on the way. The VATS bypass should be here by Wednesday, but I really don't think it's VATS now. The security light never blinks when I try to crank, so I'm thinking it's not VATS.
The smell of gas still remains when I crank long enough. And I remember it used to wreak of gas after driving sometimes.
At this point I'm leaning towards bad fuel pump/ clogged cat.
I will be going out right now to hollow out the cat as a matter of fact. And then I am going to test the injectors, but I'm not quite clear on how that works yet. Can someone fill me in?
Any advice is appreciated! Thanks!
As for how it sounds, it still wants to start but just won't. I have an AC Delco fuel pump on the way. The VATS bypass should be here by Wednesday, but I really don't think it's VATS now. The security light never blinks when I try to crank, so I'm thinking it's not VATS.
The smell of gas still remains when I crank long enough. And I remember it used to wreak of gas after driving sometimes.
At this point I'm leaning towards bad fuel pump/ clogged cat.
I will be going out right now to hollow out the cat as a matter of fact. And then I am going to test the injectors, but I'm not quite clear on how that works yet. Can someone fill me in?
Any advice is appreciated! Thanks!
Morley
05-25-2008, 06:26 PM
As for how it sounds, it still wants to start but just won't. I have an AC Delco fuel pump on the way. The VATS bypass should be here by Wednesday, but I really don't think it's VATS now. The security light never blinks when I try to crank, so I'm thinking it's not VATS.
The smell of gas still remains when I crank long enough. And I remember it used to wreak of gas after driving sometimes.
At this point I'm leaning towards bad fuel pump/ clogged cat.
I will be going out right now to hollow out the cat as a matter of fact. And then I am going to test the injectors, but I'm not quite clear on how that works yet. Can someone fill me in?
Any advice is appreciated! Thanks!
If it cranks over then VATS is a non issue. VATS interrupts the starter.
First start by disconnecting the injectors and put an ohm meter across their terminals. They should read 15-17 ohms and there should be no more than 0.5 ohms difference between any of the injectors.
If they check good I would next look at spark
The smell of gas still remains when I crank long enough. And I remember it used to wreak of gas after driving sometimes.
At this point I'm leaning towards bad fuel pump/ clogged cat.
I will be going out right now to hollow out the cat as a matter of fact. And then I am going to test the injectors, but I'm not quite clear on how that works yet. Can someone fill me in?
Any advice is appreciated! Thanks!
If it cranks over then VATS is a non issue. VATS interrupts the starter.
First start by disconnecting the injectors and put an ohm meter across their terminals. They should read 15-17 ohms and there should be no more than 0.5 ohms difference between any of the injectors.
If they check good I would next look at spark
Blaiser17
05-25-2008, 09:04 PM
Thanks Morley! I am going to do that first thing tomorrow when I have light. I was hoping to get to that today, but I'll definitely let you know by tomorrow.
Ok well I accomplished a few things before relatives came over this afternoon. I do have spark, so I guess thats a plus. Also I have 42 psi fuel pressure, which I have checked once again to make certain. I can hear the pump kick on and off loud and clear.
Morley I agree with you about the VATS not being an issue, thats a good point you made. I'm just an idiot haha.
I unplugged the MAP, I adjusted the TPS, and I cleaned the IAC. Sprayed some starting fluid, and the engine almost kicked but didn't. So injectors do seem like the logical thing to check before I jump, and accuse the fuel pump.
Keep in mind, before this all started my fuel filter got clogged and my line blew up lol So fuel seems to be the most likely culprit, now that spark is eliminated.
So tomorrow I'll check the ohms on the injectors, and if that doesn't work I guess it's either fuel pump or ecm.
Thanks once again for the input fellas!
Ok well I accomplished a few things before relatives came over this afternoon. I do have spark, so I guess thats a plus. Also I have 42 psi fuel pressure, which I have checked once again to make certain. I can hear the pump kick on and off loud and clear.
Morley I agree with you about the VATS not being an issue, thats a good point you made. I'm just an idiot haha.
I unplugged the MAP, I adjusted the TPS, and I cleaned the IAC. Sprayed some starting fluid, and the engine almost kicked but didn't. So injectors do seem like the logical thing to check before I jump, and accuse the fuel pump.
Keep in mind, before this all started my fuel filter got clogged and my line blew up lol So fuel seems to be the most likely culprit, now that spark is eliminated.
So tomorrow I'll check the ohms on the injectors, and if that doesn't work I guess it's either fuel pump or ecm.
Thanks once again for the input fellas!
Morley
05-26-2008, 01:31 AM
Since you say fuel pressure is 42 psi we are going to assume it is a TPI.
Check the fuel pressure while cranking the engine. If it doesn't drop at all check the inj1 & inj2 fuses on the fuse block. If they are good see about getting a "noid" light (auto parts store). The light goes in place of one of the injectors on the harness. Crank the engine and look for it to be flashing, check each injector connector. If the light doesn't flash, pull the ignition module and have it tested. If it fails the test even once, replace it with an AC delco unit. The module sends an ignition refrence pulse to the ECM to tell it to fire the injectors. If it passes and the noid light didn't light up you'll need a schematic to check the refrence pulse wire for a short to ground or open. If it checks out good it may be time for a new ECM.
If the noid light works, you have proven out the ECM, fuses and harness side of it and the problem is now narrowed to the engine side.
(ohm out the injectors before replaceing them)
Now, if the pressure does drop a lot during cranking you probably have an injector or 2 stuck wide open and flooding the engine. Then its time for 8 new injectors OR the pump is trashed and can't keep up the flow.
If the fuel pressure drops some (not drastically) you could have an injector or more stuck closed, again, time for new injectors.
At this point we can rule out the O2 sensor (has nothing to do with starting).
The only sensors that are going to come into play at this point are the MAP, TPS and CTS.
A bit of bad news...you have Multec injectors. They are crap and the fuel system cleaner has done more harm than good. Those injectors are so bad that the people that run the injector cleaning and flow matching services won't touch them. If you send them in they will send them back and recommend that you throw them away.
A good replacement are the Five-0 motorsport injectors found here
http://www.fiveomotorsport.com/Injector_SetsTPI.asp#caddy Down near the bottom of the page on the LH side. For the 305 look for
Bosch/Ford
1985-88 Camaro 5.0
1985-88 Firebird 5.0
New - Flow Matched Set
$305.50/8 Set
If you have a 350, at the top of the page one column over from the LH side. Look for
Bosch/Ford
1985-91 Corvette
1985-92 Camaro 5.7
New - Flow Matched Set
$305.50/8 Set
Check the fuel pressure while cranking the engine. If it doesn't drop at all check the inj1 & inj2 fuses on the fuse block. If they are good see about getting a "noid" light (auto parts store). The light goes in place of one of the injectors on the harness. Crank the engine and look for it to be flashing, check each injector connector. If the light doesn't flash, pull the ignition module and have it tested. If it fails the test even once, replace it with an AC delco unit. The module sends an ignition refrence pulse to the ECM to tell it to fire the injectors. If it passes and the noid light didn't light up you'll need a schematic to check the refrence pulse wire for a short to ground or open. If it checks out good it may be time for a new ECM.
If the noid light works, you have proven out the ECM, fuses and harness side of it and the problem is now narrowed to the engine side.
(ohm out the injectors before replaceing them)
Now, if the pressure does drop a lot during cranking you probably have an injector or 2 stuck wide open and flooding the engine. Then its time for 8 new injectors OR the pump is trashed and can't keep up the flow.
If the fuel pressure drops some (not drastically) you could have an injector or more stuck closed, again, time for new injectors.
At this point we can rule out the O2 sensor (has nothing to do with starting).
The only sensors that are going to come into play at this point are the MAP, TPS and CTS.
A bit of bad news...you have Multec injectors. They are crap and the fuel system cleaner has done more harm than good. Those injectors are so bad that the people that run the injector cleaning and flow matching services won't touch them. If you send them in they will send them back and recommend that you throw them away.
A good replacement are the Five-0 motorsport injectors found here
http://www.fiveomotorsport.com/Injector_SetsTPI.asp#caddy Down near the bottom of the page on the LH side. For the 305 look for
Bosch/Ford
1985-88 Camaro 5.0
1985-88 Firebird 5.0
New - Flow Matched Set
$305.50/8 Set
If you have a 350, at the top of the page one column over from the LH side. Look for
Bosch/Ford
1985-91 Corvette
1985-92 Camaro 5.7
New - Flow Matched Set
$305.50/8 Set
Blaiser17
05-26-2008, 07:13 PM
Actually MPFI. I don't know if thats the same.
I did follow the procedure you gave me though which was soooooo helpful I might add!
I checked pressure while cranking, stayed at 42 psi never went down even a little. So after this I checked the inj1 and inj2 fuses, they were both in tact. Then I went and got a noid light and checked the harnesses going to the injectors. They all made the noid light up.
So this told me ignition is all good, right?
Then I ohmed out the injectors, and this is where the problem lies I believe.
2 injectors came to 16. 3 injectors came to 13.5. And 1 injector came to 10.
I am assuming this is a huge problem haha.
So I pulled out the throttle body and intake and I'm cleaning those, while they are off.
I'm going to order a new set of injectors. And I have an AC Delco fuel pump coming in already from summit. Do you agree this could be the problem? I'm going to check out the injectors on that site you gave me Morley. Thanks!
You have no idea how helpful you have been I really appreciate it.
Let me know if you can think of anything else, I'll keep you updated with what happens. Also, is there anything else you can think of I should replace while I have this all torn apart.
I also must add, I've torn apart several engines, but never this one in the 3 years I've owned it. And it was cake to work on, I love it.
I did follow the procedure you gave me though which was soooooo helpful I might add!
I checked pressure while cranking, stayed at 42 psi never went down even a little. So after this I checked the inj1 and inj2 fuses, they were both in tact. Then I went and got a noid light and checked the harnesses going to the injectors. They all made the noid light up.
So this told me ignition is all good, right?
Then I ohmed out the injectors, and this is where the problem lies I believe.
2 injectors came to 16. 3 injectors came to 13.5. And 1 injector came to 10.
I am assuming this is a huge problem haha.
So I pulled out the throttle body and intake and I'm cleaning those, while they are off.
I'm going to order a new set of injectors. And I have an AC Delco fuel pump coming in already from summit. Do you agree this could be the problem? I'm going to check out the injectors on that site you gave me Morley. Thanks!
You have no idea how helpful you have been I really appreciate it.
Let me know if you can think of anything else, I'll keep you updated with what happens. Also, is there anything else you can think of I should replace while I have this all torn apart.
I also must add, I've torn apart several engines, but never this one in the 3 years I've owned it. And it was cake to work on, I love it.
Morley
05-27-2008, 03:08 AM
Actually MPFI. I don't know if thats the same.
Close enough for our troubleshooting
I did follow the procedure you gave me though which was soooooo helpful I might add!
I checked pressure while cranking, stayed at 42 psi never went down even a little. So after this I checked the inj1 and inj2 fuses, they were both in tact. Then I went and got a noid light and checked the harnesses going to the injectors. They all made the noid light up.
So this told me ignition is all good, right?
Kind of, this tells us that the ECM is getting the refrence pulse from the ignition and that the wiring harness is good.
Then I ohmed out the injectors, and this is where the problem lies I believe.
2 injectors came to 16. 3 injectors came to 13.5. And 1 injector came to 10.
I am assuming this is a huge problem haha.
There's the problem! You have 2 good injectors, 3 on their way out and one that is complete trash. That one at 10 ohms is probably shorted enough that it prevents the other 5 from firing when you crank it over.
I'm going to order a new set of injectors. And I have an AC Delco fuel pump coming in already from summit. Do you agree this could be the problem? I'm going to check out the injectors on that site you gave me Morley. Thanks!
Well, since you already paid for the pump and are going to be waiting for the injectors to get to you and winter is over...may as well replace the pump.
I would hold off on replacing anything else (unless you KNOW it is broken) until you get the new injectors in.
Close enough for our troubleshooting
I did follow the procedure you gave me though which was soooooo helpful I might add!
I checked pressure while cranking, stayed at 42 psi never went down even a little. So after this I checked the inj1 and inj2 fuses, they were both in tact. Then I went and got a noid light and checked the harnesses going to the injectors. They all made the noid light up.
So this told me ignition is all good, right?
Kind of, this tells us that the ECM is getting the refrence pulse from the ignition and that the wiring harness is good.
Then I ohmed out the injectors, and this is where the problem lies I believe.
2 injectors came to 16. 3 injectors came to 13.5. And 1 injector came to 10.
I am assuming this is a huge problem haha.
There's the problem! You have 2 good injectors, 3 on their way out and one that is complete trash. That one at 10 ohms is probably shorted enough that it prevents the other 5 from firing when you crank it over.
I'm going to order a new set of injectors. And I have an AC Delco fuel pump coming in already from summit. Do you agree this could be the problem? I'm going to check out the injectors on that site you gave me Morley. Thanks!
Well, since you already paid for the pump and are going to be waiting for the injectors to get to you and winter is over...may as well replace the pump.
I would hold off on replacing anything else (unless you KNOW it is broken) until you get the new injectors in.
Blaiser17
05-27-2008, 07:18 AM
Sounds like a plan Morley!
I'll get the stuff in, and let you know how it goes this weekend!
Thanks!
I'll get the stuff in, and let you know how it goes this weekend!
Thanks!
Blaiser17
05-27-2008, 07:35 AM
Before I purchase these injectors do you recommend 15, 17, 19, 21, or 24 lbs./hr?
They are all equal price, just curious what would work best for my car.
Also, what is the stock pushing?
Again, this is for my '91 3.1L v6 189 MPFI Camaro
They are all equal price, just curious what would work best for my car.
Also, what is the stock pushing?
Again, this is for my '91 3.1L v6 189 MPFI Camaro
Blaiser17
05-27-2008, 09:12 PM
Ok nevermind I was able to finally find some information on it. For my car 15#'s is stock, but I guess 17# would work without needing a computer mod too because of it being high impedance. I'd rather not risk it so I'm going with 15#, plus this is just my daily driver not my race car.
Morley
05-28-2008, 02:23 AM
Ok nevermind I was able to finally find some information on it. For my car 15#'s is stock, but I guess 17# would work without needing a computer mod too because of it being high impedance. I'd rather not risk it so I'm going with 15#, plus this is just my daily driver not my race car.
Yes, go back with stock fuel flow injectors. Since your car is MAP based you'd need a custom chip burned for anyhting over stock flow. MAF based systems are a bit more forgiving and can stand a couple pound increase without reprograming.
Yes, go back with stock fuel flow injectors. Since your car is MAP based you'd need a custom chip burned for anyhting over stock flow. MAF based systems are a bit more forgiving and can stand a couple pound increase without reprograming.
Blaiser17
05-31-2008, 11:34 PM
Well I managed to get the fuel tank out to replace the fuel pump, and man was that a biznitch. Did it without having to do anything to the shocks, but I had to cut off the exhaust and blowtorch every other possible bolt all while trying not to blow myself up. So it was an interesting experience needless to say. The tank looks like brand new though, so the combination of having a new fuel pump, new filter, and new injectors, I hope clears up the situation. I plan on finishing up the project tomorrow, and I'll let you know how it goes.
Morley
06-01-2008, 03:01 AM
Cutting the exhaust is a real bummer. When I did my pump (back in 1994) I took the entire cat back out and put in an after market one.
Blaiser17
06-01-2008, 09:29 PM
Hell yeah! Camaro is resurrected! It was the injectors! Thanks so much Morley!
Yeah I had to cut off the exhaust before the cat cause the cat was plugged anyway. Suck part about it was everything after the cat is only 8 months old haha. But it was the cheapo exhaust I put on when the car was running shitty. Now that it runs again, I'll treat my baby well and get a nicer exhaust.
Kinda funny that before all this the car went to 3 shops, because I had too much going on with school, and none of them could figure it out. I have had it back now for 2 weeks and with your help it started like a charm.
HELLZ YEAH!
Yeah I had to cut off the exhaust before the cat cause the cat was plugged anyway. Suck part about it was everything after the cat is only 8 months old haha. But it was the cheapo exhaust I put on when the car was running shitty. Now that it runs again, I'll treat my baby well and get a nicer exhaust.
Kinda funny that before all this the car went to 3 shops, because I had too much going on with school, and none of them could figure it out. I have had it back now for 2 weeks and with your help it started like a charm.
HELLZ YEAH!
Morley
06-01-2008, 09:46 PM
Congratulations. Feels good to fix it yourself, huh?
Blaiser17
06-06-2008, 07:50 AM
You sure as hell got that right....as long as it stays fixed for a little now. haha
....Now to buy a whole new exhaust, b/c one of my headers were cracked anyway...and the rest required dicsonfigurement...lol
Never thought I'd be content throwing a few more bucks into this thing though, and now I don't mind!
....Now to buy a whole new exhaust, b/c one of my headers were cracked anyway...and the rest required dicsonfigurement...lol
Never thought I'd be content throwing a few more bucks into this thing though, and now I don't mind!
Blaiser17
06-08-2008, 06:29 PM
Ok well I may have gotten excited too soon.
Car started a few times the other day and now it tries to start and just won't. The entire fuel system has been replaced pretty much, I still have good pressure at 42, therefore...it is getting fuel.
I have spark.
So I'm thinking ECM?
At the moment I'm trying to see if there are any codes being thrown yet since the car has now ran a few times, but the computer won't kick on now to throw codes. So thats what I am thinking at least.
Let me know what you guys think.
Car started a few times the other day and now it tries to start and just won't. The entire fuel system has been replaced pretty much, I still have good pressure at 42, therefore...it is getting fuel.
I have spark.
So I'm thinking ECM?
At the moment I'm trying to see if there are any codes being thrown yet since the car has now ran a few times, but the computer won't kick on now to throw codes. So thats what I am thinking at least.
Let me know what you guys think.
Morley
06-08-2008, 10:00 PM
When you jump pins A&B you don't get the check engine light flashing? If that is the case..blown ECM fuse or bad ECM, if the check eng light works.
Blaiser17
06-09-2008, 07:27 AM
Yup, no flash. The ECM worked before I had it down at that shop last month...and the mechanic did tell me he was experimenting with it...oh well
Typically mine would make this clicking sort of noise when it was reading the codes off and the fan would kick on sometimes, but now it doesn't do any of that.
Well anyways, I ordered a remanufactured AC Delco ECM for $96, and I SHOULD have it by weeks end, so I'll keep updating for anyone else who may have any similar issue.
Thanks Morley.
Typically mine would make this clicking sort of noise when it was reading the codes off and the fan would kick on sometimes, but now it doesn't do any of that.
Well anyways, I ordered a remanufactured AC Delco ECM for $96, and I SHOULD have it by weeks end, so I'll keep updating for anyone else who may have any similar issue.
Thanks Morley.
Morley
06-10-2008, 02:43 AM
Yup, no flash.
Typically mine would make this clicking sort of noise when it was reading the codes off and the fan would kick on sometimes, but now it doesn't do any of that.
The clicking is normal as it the fan coming on. If the fan only came on "some times" there was an impending and intermittant problem there.
The clicking is all of the relays in the system energizing (including fan relay). This is part of the self diagnostics of the system.
You just don't seem to be able to buy any luck.
Typically mine would make this clicking sort of noise when it was reading the codes off and the fan would kick on sometimes, but now it doesn't do any of that.
The clicking is normal as it the fan coming on. If the fan only came on "some times" there was an impending and intermittant problem there.
The clicking is all of the relays in the system energizing (including fan relay). This is part of the self diagnostics of the system.
You just don't seem to be able to buy any luck.
Blaiser17
06-12-2008, 09:20 PM
Ok so I got a remanufactured AC Delco ECM, and now I have a code 34. Which is nothing because I have the air filter off anyway. And disconnecting the MAP doesn't improve anything.
Does that make sense? The MAP is saying not enough air....but I have the air filter off....so it should be getting tons of air. The proper way of testing it is just taking it off and the computer should retrieve a correct temporary voltage right?
The exhaust is cut off right before the cat, could the issue be back pressure?
The car wants to start...
Any ideas? Tomorrow I'll try replacing the plugs in case the old fuel injectors dumped too much fuel and burned them out...
Does that make sense? The MAP is saying not enough air....but I have the air filter off....so it should be getting tons of air. The proper way of testing it is just taking it off and the computer should retrieve a correct temporary voltage right?
The exhaust is cut off right before the cat, could the issue be back pressure?
The car wants to start...
Any ideas? Tomorrow I'll try replacing the plugs in case the old fuel injectors dumped too much fuel and burned them out...
Morley
06-13-2008, 02:10 AM
The MAP is saying not enough air....but I have the air filter off....so it should be getting tons of air. The proper way of testing it is just taking it off and the computer should retrieve a correct temporary voltage right?
That code indicates either a bad vacuum leak or bad sensor. But you shouldn't be getting that code for a vacuum leak if the engine won't even start.
That code indicates either a bad vacuum leak or bad sensor. But you shouldn't be getting that code for a vacuum leak if the engine won't even start.
Blaiser17
06-13-2008, 08:01 PM
Well even tho the plugs were fairly new, I sanded them down cuz they looked burnt. Stuck em back in, and she turned over. Putted for a lil, then started going like shes never gone before. Sounded magnificent. Well it should after all these new parts haha.
I guess the bad injectors were an assistant in burning up my plugs.
And it's not just once, it'll start consistently. I let it run 5 times, each time for at least 5 minutes.
So I'll keep you updated!
Only codes were 34 again, and 22. So I'll just replace both the TPS and MAP and they should go away.
Morley, thanks for hangin in there with me!
I guess the bad injectors were an assistant in burning up my plugs.
And it's not just once, it'll start consistently. I let it run 5 times, each time for at least 5 minutes.
So I'll keep you updated!
Only codes were 34 again, and 22. So I'll just replace both the TPS and MAP and they should go away.
Morley, thanks for hangin in there with me!
Morley
06-14-2008, 01:38 PM
Well even tho the plugs were fairly new, I sanded them down cuz they looked burnt. Stuck em back in, and she turned over. Putted for a lil, then started going like shes never gone before. Sounded magnificent. Well it should after all these new parts haha.
I guess the bad injectors were an assistant in burning up my plugs.
And it's not just once, it'll start consistently. I let it run 5 times, each time for at least 5 minutes.
So I'll keep you updated!
Only codes were 34 again, and 22. So I'll just replace both the TPS and MAP and they should go away.
Morley, thanks for hangin in there with me!
Glad you got it going again. Don't just jump right at changing the MAP sensor. Check the electrical connector and check the little vacuum hose to it for leaks and check any of the other hoses that might tee off from where it hooks to the plenum. Then try setting the TPS. If you still have a code for the TPS after setting it it will need to be replaced.
I guess the bad injectors were an assistant in burning up my plugs.
And it's not just once, it'll start consistently. I let it run 5 times, each time for at least 5 minutes.
So I'll keep you updated!
Only codes were 34 again, and 22. So I'll just replace both the TPS and MAP and they should go away.
Morley, thanks for hangin in there with me!
Glad you got it going again. Don't just jump right at changing the MAP sensor. Check the electrical connector and check the little vacuum hose to it for leaks and check any of the other hoses that might tee off from where it hooks to the plenum. Then try setting the TPS. If you still have a code for the TPS after setting it it will need to be replaced.
Blaiser17
06-21-2008, 12:26 AM
Had the rest of the exhaust put back on today...sounds amazing. The guys at the muffler shop loved the way it sounded. Nice and throaty...never been so proud of my baby :biggrin:
MAP code went away I guess because the engine just needed some back pressure. Least thats the only thing I can think of. Idles kind of funny, but it's throwing 2 TPS codes, so thats to be expected. I tried adjusting it, the sensor seems to be dead. I'll be picking one up tomorrow.
Hope this thread can help solve someone else's issues in the future, because it started off just plain strange and unraveled into a big ball of things :rofl:
MAP code went away I guess because the engine just needed some back pressure. Least thats the only thing I can think of. Idles kind of funny, but it's throwing 2 TPS codes, so thats to be expected. I tried adjusting it, the sensor seems to be dead. I'll be picking one up tomorrow.
Hope this thread can help solve someone else's issues in the future, because it started off just plain strange and unraveled into a big ball of things :rofl:
Blaiser17
06-22-2008, 06:46 AM
OK so I am finally back to the issue at hand which started this thread. "Weird idle then stalls" Only code I'm getting is low voltage at TPS. TPS is brand new and seems to be working properly and I traced the wiring and it is all OK from what I can see.
This is what the car does. Idles fine at startup...if you drive a little and come to a stop, and have to idle for a longer period of time at a light the idle will gradually bounce between 750 and 500 RPMS, and if sitting to long it will then die. If I rev it it'll then plop down and die after the rev. If I gas it steadily it's fine. I'm thinking IAC. Let me know if you have any other ideas.
If the IAC were bad, would it somehow effect the TPS? I mean they both operate based on the throttle body and air/fuel...
This is what the car does. Idles fine at startup...if you drive a little and come to a stop, and have to idle for a longer period of time at a light the idle will gradually bounce between 750 and 500 RPMS, and if sitting to long it will then die. If I rev it it'll then plop down and die after the rev. If I gas it steadily it's fine. I'm thinking IAC. Let me know if you have any other ideas.
If the IAC were bad, would it somehow effect the TPS? I mean they both operate based on the throttle body and air/fuel...
Morley
06-22-2008, 11:19 AM
If the IAC were bad, would it somehow effect the TPS? I mean they both operate based on the throttle body and air/fuel...
Actually the IAC has nothing to do with air/fuel ratio, it is controlled by the ECM strictly based on engine RPM. It does sound like you have a sluggish IAC or blocked/gummed up IAC passages. Pull the throttlebody and remove the IAC. Get some Valvoline Synpower Carb & Throttlebody cleaner. Spray it in where the IAC sat and let it sit for 10 minutes. Spray off the IAC pintle end. Then go back at the throttlebody again, spraying it out throughly. The Synpower requires no scrubbing to get the carbon and gunk out, it is amazing how quickly and throughly it works. Put it all back together and see how it works.
The IAC shouldn't be affecting the TPS. Ususally when the TPS goes you just get a really high idle (2k rpm) that will hit out of the blue, then sometimes go back to normal. The 750-500 RPM hunting idle is more like a sticky IAC, along with stalling.
Do you by chance have a laptop with a serial port?
Actually the IAC has nothing to do with air/fuel ratio, it is controlled by the ECM strictly based on engine RPM. It does sound like you have a sluggish IAC or blocked/gummed up IAC passages. Pull the throttlebody and remove the IAC. Get some Valvoline Synpower Carb & Throttlebody cleaner. Spray it in where the IAC sat and let it sit for 10 minutes. Spray off the IAC pintle end. Then go back at the throttlebody again, spraying it out throughly. The Synpower requires no scrubbing to get the carbon and gunk out, it is amazing how quickly and throughly it works. Put it all back together and see how it works.
The IAC shouldn't be affecting the TPS. Ususally when the TPS goes you just get a really high idle (2k rpm) that will hit out of the blue, then sometimes go back to normal. The 750-500 RPM hunting idle is more like a sticky IAC, along with stalling.
Do you by chance have a laptop with a serial port?
Blaiser17
06-22-2008, 11:37 AM
Ok that makes sense now.
Well then what could cause the TPS to go awry still...today at startup it went up to 2k like you said but after being driven the idle went back to normal. So the TPS is still messed up even after replacement haha. What could I do to solve this issue?
As for the IAC I pulled out the other one and it was caked with carbon build up. I previously cleaned the intake and throttle body extensively when I had it all apart for the fuel injectors, so I'm glad I did that now. But the IAC looked horrible. So I'm going to try it out after cleaning it with that stuff you were saying...I may have a ripoff version of that...and then I'll test it out. Assuming that fixes the bobbing idle and stall how do I fix the TPS issue?
Thanks again Morley!
Well then what could cause the TPS to go awry still...today at startup it went up to 2k like you said but after being driven the idle went back to normal. So the TPS is still messed up even after replacement haha. What could I do to solve this issue?
As for the IAC I pulled out the other one and it was caked with carbon build up. I previously cleaned the intake and throttle body extensively when I had it all apart for the fuel injectors, so I'm glad I did that now. But the IAC looked horrible. So I'm going to try it out after cleaning it with that stuff you were saying...I may have a ripoff version of that...and then I'll test it out. Assuming that fixes the bobbing idle and stall how do I fix the TPS issue?
Thanks again Morley!
Blaiser17
06-23-2008, 07:34 PM
Alright well I replaced the IAC, it fixed the stalling issue at idle, and when I rev it. TPS seemed to act up more today though. Still throwing the TPS code, and the throttle response seemed very delayed, moreso than yesterday. Also it still starts out at 2 grand, and then after driving will idle at normal. It seems to be pulling more in drive also. This is all due to the TPS I know, but how do I fix it?
Blaiser17
06-26-2008, 10:39 AM
Well I finally figured out how to properly adjust the TPS. My haynes manual said nothing, thirdgen.org was vague/wrong with their instructions at least on the way they apply to my vehicle, and every source I searched for seemed to be inaccurate and left out steps. But I finally found a link which proved to be very helpful today, and I plan on giving it a shot when I get home from work. The site is:
http://www.iroczone.com/techarttpsadj.html
In case anyone else ever needs to know. I'll let you know how it goes.
http://www.iroczone.com/techarttpsadj.html
In case anyone else ever needs to know. I'll let you know how it goes.
Morley
06-26-2008, 12:22 PM
Well I finally figured out how to properly adjust the TPS. My haynes manual said nothing, thirdgen.org was vague/wrong with their instructions at least on the way they apply to my vehicle, and every source I searched for seemed to be inaccurate and left out steps. But I finally found a link which proved to be very helpful today, and I plan on giving it a shot when I get home from work. The site is:
http://www.iroczone.com/techarttpsadj.html
In case anyone else ever needs to know. I'll let you know how it goes.
Yep, that's the way to adjust it. I didn't know you didn't know the correct way to adjust it. Don't worry if you don't get the 4 vdc at WOT. As long as you get around 3.75 you are good.
http://www.iroczone.com/techarttpsadj.html
In case anyone else ever needs to know. I'll let you know how it goes.
Yep, that's the way to adjust it. I didn't know you didn't know the correct way to adjust it. Don't worry if you don't get the 4 vdc at WOT. As long as you get around 3.75 you are good.
Blaiser17
06-30-2008, 10:01 AM
Well I can get 4.09 at pretty much every spot I adjust the TPS to. I can get under that only a few places. I managed to get an erratic voltage under 1V, so I just left it there after fooling around with it for 2 hours. I used both the new TPS and old TPS, no difference between the two. I don't know how to go about fixing this. The car seems to run fine except when initially started in park (1350 RPM). It settles down to normal when being driven, and when stopped. No issues with idling now that the IAC has been replaced. Has anyone else ever experienced this issue with the TPS not wanting to adjust properly? And how come my code says low voltage at the TPS, but the issue seems to be I can never get it go from high (4.07-4.09). Maybe I purchased a faulty TPS, but I highly doubt that it's ACDelco.
Morley
06-30-2008, 11:09 AM
If you can't get below 1V with the throttle at idle setting and it is the same with 2 different TPS's, then you have 2 bad sensors. The TPS is nothing more than a variable potentiometer. It receives 5V, and depending on its position, sends a voltage signal back the the ECM which relates to a throttle position. Since you can get the full 4V WOT output but not the .54V idle output, you either have 2 bad sensors OR are doing it wrong or your "idle screw" is out too far not letting the TPS close all the way. I'm not sure on how to set minimum air on the V6 but on the V8 you jump pins A & B on the ALDL, turn the key on and wait 20 seconds. Then remove the connector from the IAC. Then turn key off and remove jumper. Next, start the car and adjust "idle" speed to 600 RPM (this is known as minimum air). Turn car off and hook up the IAC. Start the car and check/set the TPS You should have the key on, engine off and back probe pins A & B of the harness connector with a digital volt meter. Then adjust the TPS to obtain .54-.75 VDC. Lock down the TPS and check it again. Then check to ensure you are getting 3.75+ volts at WOT. Just like the article you linked to. This is ALL for a V8 car, again, I have no experiance doing the adjustments on the V6's.
Blaiser17
06-30-2008, 02:38 PM
I'm up for trying anything at this point! I'll give the V8 technique a shot. And I'll go exchange the TPS. Thanks buddy!
Morley
07-01-2008, 02:57 AM
I'm up for trying anything at this point! I'll give the V8 technique a shot. And I'll go exchange the TPS. Thanks buddy!
Before you take the TPS back, hook the connector to it without installing it on the throttle body. Back probe it and see if you are below 1V then. If you are then the minimum air adjustment is probably buggered (screw run in too far) and you'll need to do that adjustment.
Before you take the TPS back, hook the connector to it without installing it on the throttle body. Back probe it and see if you are below 1V then. If you are then the minimum air adjustment is probably buggered (screw run in too far) and you'll need to do that adjustment.
Automotive Network, Inc., Copyright ©2026
