Paddle shifting american cars?

Ok, i was just in the Mustang forum and read that the new mustang is going to have an option for paddle style shifting. My stomach just gets tied in knots thinking that good ol' italian(ferrari) and german(m3) engineering has now moved on to the assembly line at Ford. Just knowing that an american car offers this option upsets me, there is no way the engineering will be done as well as BMW or Ferrari. In fact I expect fords shifters to just fall right off the steering column...hahaha. This is a pretty pointless post but I had to let my anger off some where. Does anyone else agree that this makes the whole appeal of the F1 style shifters lose its value?

I agree 100%. Ford would be the last company I would want bringing this great feature to American cars. They will mess it up in someway, but get an A for effort... LOL. :silly2:

Sure, they have paddle shifters, but that doesn't nessicarily mean that they are F1 based like Ferrari's.:)

Originally posted by YellowMaranello
Sure, they have paddle shifters, but that doesn't nessicarily mean that they are F1 based like Ferrari's.:)


well the mr2 has a sequentia sfifter but it takes like a sec to sfift. Most people can do muche better than that with a clutch.

Originally posted by Neutrino



well the mr2 has a sequentia sfifter but it takes like a sec to sfift. Most people can do muche better than that with a clutch.
Exactly. Anyone that can shift faster then Ferrari's sequential tranny with a clutch can't be human.

You should probably not let it get to you. In 5 years paddle shifters will be a common as a sun roof. Every car line will offer them. It's not like Ferrari has exclusive rights to hire engineers. Not a big ford fan, but they'll just throw money at it until they get it right. And they do have tons more money to throw away than Ferrari. So, it doesn't upset me, it will just be less cool when your neighbor hood Camry has it.

the mr2 sequential system doesnt take a second to shift...it takes about a 1/2 a second..and if ure really good you can switch on the fly and the car wont stall or nething..so technically its alot faster than u precieve it to be..

Originally posted by SilverLotus340R
the mr2 sequential system doesnt take a second to shift...it takes about a 1/2 a second..and if ure really good you can switch on the fly and the car wont stall or nething..so technically its alot faster than u precieve it to be..

i never tryed it myself so i don't know that personally but every article about it said that its quite slow and crappy. They just gave points for trying.

Apparenlty Schumie's car can make a shift in 0.060 seconds I hope I got the decimal right, it makes a difference.

Also, you must keep in mind that Magneti Marelli, not ferrari makes these gearboxes, Getrag makes BMW's I believe, Xtrac makes WRC transmission which I'm also sure are sequential and damn quick.

Luetic is right, this stuff is going to be avaliable in 5 years to everyone the new technology also gets implemented (A good 90% of the time) in the company's top models, and it trickles down after that.

It's not a quesiion of wether or not it will be available , it's SHOULD they people be allowed to drive cars like that. People are :bloated: as it is, we don't need them going faster, faster.

Yes Leutic and Porsche, yall are right. It doesn't bother me all that much, I'm just worried about other companies giving the system a bad name by screwing it up. Yea it will be on everything in 5 years, sh*t, theyll probably offer it on a Chevy Silverado. Porsche, I agree again their are too many damn :bloated: drivers around, so lets tighten up license laws and keep all the crappy drivers who endanger all of us good drivers off the road.

Ok, i was just in the Mustang forum and read that the new mustang is going to have an option for paddle style shifting.

Greetings! What thread did you read that in? I can guarantee you that the 2005 Mustang will NOT have a paddle shifter.

Just knowing that an american car offers this option upsets me, there is no way the engineering will be done as well as BMW or Ferrari.

I hate to be the one to break this to you, but the same guys who engineered the paddle shifter in the 355 and current Ferraris are the guys who did the work on the Ford (Aston Martin) paddle shifter. And the Aston has fourth generation technology. It is miles above and beyond what is in the Ferraris.

In fact I expect fords shifters to just fall right off the steering column...hahaha.

Having battled with the Ferrari shifter for almost two yrs and now having enjoyed the shifter that Ford has placed into my Mustang race car, I can tell you that you're laughing up the wrong tree. I can understand your prejudice, but it is ill placed here.

Does anyone else agree that this makes the whole appeal of the F1 style shifters lose its value?

Have you driven a Ferrari with a paddle shifter? Do you only care about it's ooh-aah value rather than its actual drivability? Again, I can fully understand the yearning for Ferrari mystique, but when you are judging specific functions and features, then it comes down to what works.

C.

I thought I would clear a few things up...

Sure, they have paddle shifters, but that doesn't nessicarily mean that they are F1 based like Ferrari's.

The F1 technology that first appeared in a street car in the form of the Ferrari 355 F1 has been further refined and used in various other cars, including the Aston Martin Vanquish. Ford owns Aston. Any paddle shifters that you see from Ford will come from that program.

well the mr2 has a sequentia sfifter but it takes like a sec to sfift. Most people can do muche better than that with a clutch.

The MR2 shifts in less than a full second, but I would bet money that it is slower than 250 milliseconds, which is how quickly my Mustang shifts. However quick that might sound, I have been told by every profesisonal race car driver that has been in it that they can power shift faster than that with a standard transmission. The paddler shifters are quick, but the street versions are still slower than you think.

There is something else to consider when you hear numbers thrown around claiming shift speeds. For instance, when BMW makes their claims about how quickly their paddle shifter works, they are talking about only the time it takes for the actuator to move from gear to gear. They do not take into account the full amount of time that it takes from when you request the shift to full actuation. That includes throttle blip, clutch opening and closing, etc. When all that is taken into account, the BMW is slower than the Aston which means that it's slower than my Mustang. :)

Anyone that can shift faster then Ferrari's sequential tranny with a clutch can't be human.

I would agree that no one can shift manually faster than Ferrari's F1 cars, but not only can a pro shift faster than the street Ferrari shifter, but I can shift faster in my Mustang. BTW, the Ferrari doesn't actually have a sequential gearbox, it is merely actuated sequentially.

C.

ok people, i hate threads like this, not only is half of the information incorrect, it's also twisted and distorted beyond believe, then throw in your average ferrari hater and people don't know what to believe.

i have just a few points to make,
1. Ferrari are not idiots, when they put paddle shifters on their cars they do it for a good reason, They ARE Faster!. However i am not saying that if you would put two identical drivers in two ferraris, one in a paddle shifter and the other in a manual that whoever is in the paddle shifter will always win a race, this is because give or take a few fractions of a second here and there, a ferrari road car will shift gears about the same as a pro driver. Any advantage gained by a paddle shift over the coarse of a full lap could be thrown away by a small mistake in just one corner!. So for a professional driver, paddle shifts in ferrari cars may not be a big deal, however i myself are an amateur driver and i know that if i step into a ferrari with paddle shifts i will be able to change gears like a pro EVERY TIME!!. plus in a paddle shifter you can keep your hands on the steering wheel saving more time as you don't have to fiddle with a stick whilst trying to break into a tricky corner.

2. The paddle shifters in the ferrari 575 or enzo and later cars do change faster than even a pro driver, this has been proved by pro test drivers - fact.

3. I don't know why you're getting upset about paddle shifters appearing on run of the mill (or crap) cars, it doesn't matter, the chances are there crap and are just for show. Ferrari done it first, and if you look in the history books ferrari where the first to do quite alot of things!. I don't know too much about mustangs or cammys as we don't get too many of them around here, but over here we get paddle shifters on a whole host of cars, for instance for somewhere between £10,000 - £15,000 you can buy a citroen saxo vtr and get a paddle shift as standard, but i know it's knowwhere near as good as ferrari cars. It always makes make me laugh when i see some boy racer in his souped up saxo with a stupid body kit trying to impress a bunch of idiots on a friday night by tearing his tyres to shreads thinking he's micheal schumacher, just because some idiot at citroen put a crappy "automatic" gearbox with a couple of pieces of plastic on the steering wheel and called it a paddle shift!!. So don't worry about Ford or anybody elses execs trying to make a little more profit by pretending to have F1 technology in their cars. "immatation is the best form of flattery"

4. Don't go around comparing anything to an F1 gearbox, nothing comes close not even an enzo, an F1 gearbox costs more than most sportscars and only has to last 200 miles!

5. For most people who buy a ferrari it's simple a matter of taste which gearbox they choose. Most of the old guys prefer the manual which is still one of the best gearboxs in the world.

tiger racing is this carol

tiger racing is this carol

:wave: This is me. And who are you?

C.

ok people, i hate threads like this, not only is half of the information incorrect, it's also twisted and distorted beyond believe

Indeed. Let's see if we can make some sense of this.

1. Ferrari are not idiots, when they put paddle shifters on their cars they do it for a good reason, They ARE Faster!

You've spoken to the Factory about this? You're quite certain about their reasoning in this matter?

i myself are an amateur driver and i know that if i step into a ferrari with paddle shifts i will be able to change gears like a pro EVERY TIME!!

Um... no, you won't. Professionals can shift standard trannies faster. At least that's what Cort Wagner, Paul Brown, Chris Cook, Cary Eisenlohr, Bill Auberlen and Terry Borchellor, among others, have told me.

plus in a paddle shifter you can keep your hands on the steering wheel saving more time as you don't have to fiddle with a stick whilst trying to break into a tricky corner.

Heh. You got that part right, at least.

2. The paddle shifters in the ferrari 575 or enzo and later cars do change faster than even a pro driver, this has been proved by pro test drivers - fact.

You have proof for this? Which pro drivers are you citing here?

3. I don't know why you're getting upset about paddle shifters appearing on run of the mill (or crap) cars, it doesn't matter, the chances are there crap and are just for show. Ferrari done it first

Actually, Magnetti Marelli done it first for Ferrari, but have since done it for a few others. Do you know anyone who has driven both a Ferrari paddle shift car and an Aston Martin, for example? And what do they say about the two systems? Oh... wait! I've driven both. The Aston is better.

So don't worry about Ford or anybody elses execs trying to make a little more profit by pretending to have F1 technology in their cars. "immatation is the best form of flattery"

Yer funny. :lol2:

C.

.Ok i don't want to get drawn into some pointless argument which is already destined to end without conclusion!, i have better things to do with my time and no doubt yourself also! However i may have been a little vague with my comments and you have every right to challenge them, so i will try to clarify my arguments to show you the point i am trying to make.

1. No i have not spoken directly to any representative of ferrari about the issues refereed to in this forum, and yes i am quite certain about their reasoning in this matter!, The introduction of a F1 style paddle shift semi automatic gearbox on ferrari road cars is to improve performance, and dynamics of driving such cars. Let me be more specific, i will use a Ferrari 360 Modena as an example:
First a Ferrari 360 Modena is not a racing car!, Now say we set Cort Wagner a challenge of taking the 360 with each gearbox around a track and see which one will set the fastest time, maybe he will be able to set a faster time with a standard H than with a F1 box and maybe he won't, but any time difference would be negligible at best, and lets not forget that Cort Wagner is not your average driver!, but if we were to get a more average driver and set him the same challenge he's going to set a faster time with the F1 box. Why is this? This is my point - automation! "gear shifting demands a lot of concentration and effort for any driver, with a paddle shift you take this task away from the driver letting him concentrate on other things, plus a paddle shift won't let you make any silly mistakes and blow the engine! In my experience with the 360 F1 box you have to slightly lift off under full power to upshift but not to downshift.
Maybe with the standard 360 gearbox Cort Wagner and co can upshift a fraction of a second quicker than the 360 F1 box but they will NOT be able to downshift any faster.
So is the sole reason that Ferrari offers an F1 style gearbox as an option on their road cars to make the car faster? - no, they could easily make the standard 360 a lot faster by changing the suspension or brakes etc, hence the Challenge Stradale.
The 360 as standard is set up for an exhilarating driving experience on both road and track, with excellent steering feedback, balance, etc this car is beautiful to drive and for most people who are not biased or prejudiced in their decision it is the best handling car on the planet, for some people a F1 gearbox only increases this experience while others prefer the manual.

2. I doubt that i can give you 100% proof that the 575 and later models can change faster than even a pro but that is what i believe and have been told, the driver i am referring to is Luca Badoer. Also a few articles from tests done from magazines seemed to confirm that.

3. Ok i suggest you go back to reread the posts, i clearly stated that paddle shifts appearing on crap cars will also tend to be crap, why do you reference an Aston Martins gearbox to a 360s?, are you saying that an Aston Martin is a crap car?.... in which case by your own logic you are negating the fact that a 360 is crap also!, anyone who states that is either very biased or knows little about cars.

i worked for adam cox (ace motorsport) for awhile. also i saw your mustang in mm&f.
i never met you adam just told me about your racing and i thought it was cool.

oh yeah my name is k.c. dougherty

i worked for adam cox (ace motorsport) for awhile. also i saw your mustang in mm&f.
i never met you adam just told me about your racing and i thought it was cool.

oh yeah my name is k.c. dougherty

Hi, K.C.!

Adam worked with my dad for a few yrs on his vintage cars and was my first crew chief in Ferrari Challenge. If you're still in touch with him, send him my best. I haven't seen him in ages and hope his shop is doing well.

Did you see the article in the December issue of 5.0 Mustang? My car was featured on the cover and they did 11 pages on it. Very in depth, very technical article. I think you can still view it on their website.

C.

adam is working somewhere else right now. i moved from sonoma county to florida so i don't hear from him much any more. adam is definatly a very cool guy i am stoked i was able to work for him.

i have the magazine. the car is cool looking. is it a mustang tranny thats been swithed to sequeintial? how are the gears being shifted?

imust have missed the tranny part in the mag. oops
how does this system shift an h pattern shifter?

which car d p you prefer to drive the stang or your challenge car.

i have rode in acouple challenge cars i havnt been able to get in a better car

.Ok i don't want to get drawn into some pointless argument which is already destined to end without conclusion!

It's only pointless if nobody learns anything.

i may have been a little vague with my comments and you have every right to challenge them, so i will try to clarify my arguments to show you the point i am trying to make.

Actually, I don't think you've been vague at all. I think you're just wrong about some of it. :)

1. No i have not spoken directly to any representative of ferrari about the issues refereed to in this forum, and yes i am quite certain about their reasoning in this matter!

You admit that you've not spoken to the Factory, but somehow still feel free to speak directly for them. Based on what? Do you work in the industry? Have you ever been connected with Ferrari? Are you more psychic than I am? I would think it would be more prudent to stick to expressing your opinion and to relating specific facts that you can actually back up. It lends more credence to your arguments.

The introduction of a F1 style paddle shift semi automatic gearbox on ferrari road cars is to improve performance, and dynamics of driving such cars.

I'd agree with that.

say we set Cort Wagner a challenge of taking the 360 with each gearbox around a track and see which one will set the fastest time, maybe he will be able to set a faster time with a standard H than with a F1 box and maybe he won't, but any time difference would be negligible at best

Racing is measured in tenths of seconds. Nothing is negligible.

if we were to get a more average driver and set him the same challenge he's going to set a faster time with the F1 box.

I expect that's true. The only thing I disagreed with you about was your adamant assertion that the paddle shift systems available on street cars shift faster than a pro does with a dogbox. They don't, according to the professionals that I have spoken to.

In my experience with the 360 F1 box you have to slightly lift off under full power to upshift but not to downshift.

You've actually driven a 360 with a paddle shift? And you lifted on the upshifts? Interesting. The 360 you drove must have had a crappier system in it than my 355 F1 Challenge car does, because there is no way that lifting on the upshifts is faster. OTOH, you do need to blip the throttle slightly on the downshifts in the 355 for fastest shift times. I've been told that you don't have to do that in a 360 and you sure as Hel don't have to do it in the most recent versions, like what is in the Vanquish.

Maybe with the standard 360 gearbox Cort Wagner and co can upshift a fraction of a second quicker than the 360 F1 box but they will NOT be able to downshift any faster.

When did Cort tell you this?

So is the sole reason that Ferrari offers an F1 style gearbox as an option on their road cars to make the car faster?

Doubtful. The paddle shift technology is also much easier on the mechanicals of the car. The system has redundant safeties built in and the force used by the actuators to move from gear to gear are far less than are exerted by a human.

The 360 as standard is set up for an exhilarating driving experience on both road and track, with excellent steering feedback, balance, etc this car is beautiful to drive and for most people who are not biased or prejudiced in their decision it is the best handling car on the planet

You do have a tendency to make rather broad statements of fact without providing any supporting evidence. As I am a lifelong Tifosa, I would never argue that the 360 is an exceptional car, but I'm not about to go making claims that I know what the best handling car on the planet is. I'll leave that to the experts who have actually driven a few hundred cars and make their living comparing them. Are you one of those people?

2. I doubt that i can give you 100% proof that the 575 and later models can change faster than even a pro but that is what i believe and have been told, the driver i am referring to is Luca Badoer. Also a few articles from tests done from magazines seemed to confirm that.

When did you speak to Luca? And which articles are you referring to? You could at least provide a link or two.

3. Ok i suggest you go back to reread the posts, i clearly stated that paddle shifts appearing on crap cars will also tend to be crap, why do you reference an Aston Martins gearbox to a 360s?, are you saying that an Aston Martin is a crap car?

Try to keep up. If you would reread a post or two, then you would understand that Aston Martin is owned by Ford and so any shifter system that you find on a Ford product in future is going to be derived from the one that is on the Vanquish. At least, until further notice.

You tried to dismiss any shifter system that appeared on a Ford as an attempt by them to pretend to have F1 technology. You are flat out wrong. Again, what Ford has right now is equal to or better than anything that Ferrari has put into their street cars and I've got the Mustang to prove it.

C.

1. No I don’t speak for Ferrari as you well know, I simply felt the need to respond to your original posts as you seemed to imply that Ferraris F1 gearboxes were inferior to just about every other implementation of a F1 gearbox as well as Ferraris own manual shift. This is far from the truth and is the reason for my original post. Now I certainly do not need to be connected to Ferrari or even psychic to realise why a manufacturer like Ferrari adopts new technology in their road cars, in fact the reason is, one would think, obvious!

”Racing is measured in tenths of seconds. Nothing is negligible.”

This quote may be accurate when talking about racing which is precisely the point I was making, a 360 is NOT a racing car and a tenth or two IS negligible in the real world, especially when you are talking about the difference between a pro driver and a complete amateur.



“I expect that's true. The only thing I disagreed with you about was your adamant assertion that the paddle shift systems available on street cars shift faster than a pro does with a dogbox. They don't, according to the professionals that I have spoken to.”

Ok I will concede that on Ferraris first generation paddle shifts that a pro driver can shift a fraction faster than the F1 box, and even on the second gen boxes too, but this is a mere fraction of a second, also this is only referring to the physical gear change and not the entire process. Although I still agree that even taking everything in to account that a professional racing driver can still change faster. However there are still occasions that a pro would be inferior to even the first gen box. Now lets stop talking about professional racing drivers, I would still argue that a 355 F1 box is faster than the standard shift – by physically shifting faster than most people are capable of and by eliminating the human variables. If you look at the acceleration capability of a Ferrari with a F1 box and the same Ferrari without a F1 box the times are the same. This is because any difference is negligible to most people, you on the other hand seemed to imply that, the difference was significant, I disagree.
Plus, the latest generation of Ferrari F1 gearboxes change at a MINIMUM speed of 150 milliseconds, like on the Enzo, Stradale and so on, this is faster than even the professionals, it’s also faster than the vanquish, there are numerous resources on the net that will confirm this.

“You've actually driven a 360 with a paddle shift? And you lifted on the upshifts? Interesting. The 360 you drove must have had a crappier system in it than my 355 F1 Challenge car does, because there is no way that lifting on the upshifts is faster”

I agree totally, because I never stated that lifting on the upshifts was faster, in fact it’s slower, I was just stating that the downshifts on the 360 are much smoother than the upshifts under full power, it’s not a flat shift, it can be a little jerky and can be made smoother if you lift off slightly. Obviously this isn’t something your going to want to do in a race but if your out on the track just to have fun you may want to try it.

When did I speak to Cort? I didn’t, Cort is only human and I am saying that I don’t believe that even a pro has an advantage over a 360 when downshifting.

As for my statement about the 360 being the best handling car on the planet, this is my opinion but it is based on the opinion, research and testing of experts who do this for a living.

Also for your final point you say, that what Ford has right now is equal to or better than anything Ferrari has. Show me a gearbox that is in a current Ford model that is equal to or better, than say the gearbox in the 360 Stradale.
Ok when I said about ford not having a quality f1 gearbox I was wrong but I wasn’t focusing on ford, rather on those manufacturers that are now putting these gearboxes on everyday cars.

imust have missed the tranny part in the mag. oops
how does this system shift an h pattern shifter?

Electrohydrauliclly controlled actuators move from gear to gear. If you want more specifics, I would either direct you to the 5.0 Mustang article or I can ask my crew chief to post. My understanding is sufficient to pilot the vehicle, but I'm just the driver. :)

which car d p you prefer to drive the stang or your challenge car.

I am still honoured to have been able to race a Ferrari and even though I got my butt kicked on a regular basis, I really loved driving that car. However, there is no comparison to my Mustang. This is a real race car. This car has twice as much torque as the Ferrari had horsepower. It's faster, it handles better, it's more reliable and it sure as Hel doesn't cost as much to run. We also don't have to deal with the Ferrari Factory's BS. On the contrary, we are being technically supported by Ford.

I sometimes miss the sound of that Ferrari V8, but overall, I am really enjoying the power of American Iron.

C.

1. No I don’t speak for Ferrari as you well know

Then don't.

I simply felt the need to respond to your original posts as you seemed to imply that Ferraris F1 gearboxes were inferior to just about every other implementation of a F1 gearbox as well as Ferraris own manual shift. This is far from the truth

I didn't say that Ferrari is inferior to everything, I said it's not the best and that as new manfacturers come out with systems on their cars, they will be as good or better than Ferrari's older systems. The OP claimed that Ford's system was junk. It's not. It's better than the the 355 and the 360.

This quote may be accurate when talking about racing which is precisely the point I was making, a 360 is NOT a racing car and a tenth or two IS negligible in the real world, especially when you are talking about the difference between a pro driver and a complete amateur.

The conversation has flowed back and forth between street drivers and pros. If you're going to talk about track times or respond to my comments, then I am going to reply to your comments as well. And if a tenth or two IS neglible in the real world then why put these systems on street cars at all?

Ok I will concede that on Ferraris first generation paddle shifts that a pro driver can shift a fraction faster than the F1 box, and even on the second gen boxes too

Damn skippy.

but this is a mere fraction of a second, also this is only referring to the physical gear change and not the entire process.

Um, no. I have always been talking about the entire process of shifting from gear to gear. And, of COURSE, we are talking about fractions of seconds. Seconds are how long it takes to shift. What else would we talk about?

Although I still agree that even taking everything in to account that a professional racing driver can still change faster. However there are still occasions that a pro would be inferior to even the first gen box.

How many ways can I tell you that you're wrong according to the pros themselves? The guys who have actually driven the different cars and who get paid to know what they are doing say that you're wrong.

Plus, the latest generation of Ferrari F1 gearboxes change at a MINIMUM speed of 150 milliseconds, like on the Enzo, Stradale and so on, this is faster than even the professionals, it’s also faster than the vanquish, there are numerous resources on the net that will confirm this.

Provide links to these sources and make sure that they are measuring the same thing. I've already addressed this. Some manufacturers give times that only represent the movement of one gear to another. Other manufacturers talk about the full process of blipping the throttle, opening and closing the clutch and changing gears.

When did I speak to Cort? I didn’t

Well, I have. He's driven my Challenge car. I suggest that you don't make any claims regarding him without speaking to him directly or at least being able to quote him from a reputable source.

Cort is only human and I am saying that I don’t believe that even a pro has an advantage over a 360 when downshifting.

You're wrong.

As for my statement about the 360 being the best handling car on the planet, this is my opinion

Okie doke. It's rather irrelevant to this conversation though.

Also for your final point you say, that what Ford has right now is equal to or better than anything Ferrari has. Show me a gearbox that is in a current Ford model that is equal to or better, than say the gearbox in the 360 Stradale.

I don't think you're paying attention. I've said more than once that the paddle shifter in my Mustang is outstanding and is better than what Ferrari has been putting in their street cars.

Ok when I said about ford not having a quality f1 gearbox I was wrong

Kind of you to admit it.

but I wasn’t focusing on ford, rather on those manufacturers that are now putting these gearboxes on everyday cars.

Like who? You didn't name anyone but Ford. This whole thread was started to slam Ford and basically anyone who isn't Ferrari. You joined in to agree with that. I'm glad you now realize that you're wrong.

And that's really all this conversation comes down to. Somebody claimed that they heard Ford would be putting a paddle shifter into the new Mustang, which is utterly untrue and then a bunch of people claimed that if they did, it would be a crappy system that would be an embarassement compared to what Ferrari has. Also untrue.

Nothing against Ferrari at all. I am a die hard Tifosa, but I am also eternally grateful to Ford for helping me put a paddle shifter into my Mustang race car. A paddle shifter that kicks butt. :)

C.

“No I don’t speak for Ferrari as you well know”

“Then don’t”

I didn’t !!!


“The conversation has flowed back and forth between street drivers and pros. If you're going to talk about track times or respond to my comments, then I am going to reply to your comments as well. And if a tenth or two IS neglible in the real world then why put these systems on street cars at all?”

You’re the one that’s comparing Ferrari road cars to racing cars, then you compare Ferraris obsolete gearboxes to Aston Martins latest offering, if you’re going to make a comparison then at least make a fair one!

You say that a pro driver is superior In everyway to the gearbox in say, a 360 F1, you’re wrong, maybe he can edge out an advantage in some areas, he may also post slightly faster lap times, this much is true but there is no doubt that certain situations will inevitably occur during the coarse of a race in which the 360 F1 box will have an advantage.

The point I am trying to emphasize in previous posts is this: -
We could put Forest Gump in a 360 F1 and any time he would lose by changing gears compared to even a pro driver would not be worth talking about. In fact any time lost in gear changes would be more than made up for in his general driving by not having to concentrate as much on changing gears. I do agree with you on the racing standpoint but try to see the point I am making.

The reason I didn’t post any links is because that would be biased, it’s much easier to search yourself and come to your own conclusion.


“I don't think you're paying attention. I've said more than once that the paddle shifter in my Mustang is outstanding and is better than what Ferrari has been putting in their street cars.”

Once again I will asked you to tell me which models from Ford are equal or better than what Ferrari has, is this mustang of yours just an ordinary mustang with a paddle shift that anyone can buy from a Ford dealer (like a 360 F1), or is a specially prepared mustang for racing with an aftermarket transmission? Just post me a link to show me Ford road cars with these superior gearboxes!

“Like who? You didn't name anyone but Ford. This whole thread was started to slam Ford and basically anyone who isn't Ferrari. You joined in to agree with that. I'm glad you now realize that you're wrong.”

I did name Citroen, and no that is not why I joined this thread, I only joined because of YOUR original posts, while this thread may have been started with unrealistic posts, it was just people having a little fun. You changed that with your serious claims and that is why I responded, you may have been coming from the right direction but your words were just a little strong.
Ferrari have always been at the cutting edge of technology, like putting a paddle shift on a road car, but I am not saying that no one else can do this too! Any manufacturer as big Ford is going to have the resources to develop just about anything, but this doesn’t mean they will, when I slammed Citroen for putting an inferior paddle shift on a saxo, I’m also aware that they make paddle shifts for their WRC cars which are state of the art.

You’re the one that’s comparing Ferrari road cars to racing cars

Untrue. I've merely spoken of cars in a race setting. I've not been talking about racing gearboxes compared to street boxes. Well, except to try to clear up this misconception that so many people have that F1 paddle shifters allow amateurs to shift faster than professional drivers. That's not true. A pro with a dogbox can shift faster than a paddle shifter designed for street use.

then you compare Ferraris obsolete gearboxes to Aston Martins latest offering, if you’re going to make a comparison then at least make a fair one!

I try to be careful to only speak of that which I know. Up until 2003, I am quite sure that Aston Martin (Ford's) paddle shifter was better than anything Ferrari was putting on the street. I'm not positive about how things are now. What is in the 612 and Enzo may be the same generation technology as what is in the Vanquish or a later gen.

The point behind this thread was to clarify that what Ford would put on the street would NOT be vastly inferior to what Ferrari has.

You say that a pro driver is superior In everyway to the gearbox in say, a 360 F1, you’re wrong

You have nothing to base that on, but your amateur opinion. OTOH, the professionals that I've spoken to say that their experience is quite different.

The point I am trying to emphasize in previous posts is this: -
We could put Forest Gump in a 360 F1 and any time he would lose by changing gears compared to even a pro driver would not be worth talking about. In fact any time lost in gear changes would be more than made up for in his general driving by not having to concentrate as much on changing gears. I do agree with you on the racing standpoint but try to see the point I am making.

I don't see the point you're making here at all. You're now claiming that any idiot using a paddle shifter could beat a professional using a standard shifter because they don't have to concentrate as much on changing gears? That's the silliest thing I've heard on this thread yet.

The reason I didn’t post any links is because that would be biased, it’s much easier to search yourself and come to your own conclusion.

You must be new to this online thing as that is not how things work. If you are going to make statements of fact, then you are going to be asked to back them up with some evidence. If you are then going to claim that there are articles and professional opinions out there that support you, then you need to produce them. Else you cannot expect your opinion to be highly valued at all.

Once again I will asked you to tell me which models from Ford are equal or better than what Ferrari has

The Vanquish.

is this mustang of yours just an ordinary mustang with a paddle shift that anyone can buy from a Ford dealer (like a 360 F1), or is a specially prepared mustang for racing with an aftermarket transmission?

This is a race prepared Mustang that has been fitted with a completely stock T-56 transmission and shifter system out of the Aston Martin Vanquish, a readily available street car. The shifter has been calibrated to work with the Ford V8, but the tranny itself is stock.

I only joined because of YOUR original posts, while this thread may have been started with unrealistic posts, it was just people having a little fun. You changed that with your serious claims and that is why I responded, you may have been coming from the right direction but your words were just a little strong.

Interestingly enough, the guy who started this thread is nowhere to be seen. Regardless, what started this was:

1) Misinformation. Ford is NOT putting a paddle shifter onto the '05 Mustang.

2) Ignorance. If and when Ford does put a paddle shifter onto one of their street cars, it will be as good or better than whatever Ferrari has on theirs.

Ferrari have always been at the cutting edge of technology, like putting a paddle shift on a road car, but I am not saying that no one else can do this too! Any manufacturer as big Ford is going to have the resources to develop just about anything, but this doesn’t mean they will

This is seriously getting redundant. AGAIN... Ferrari's paddle shifter was designed by Magnetti Marelli. So was Aston Martin's. Ford owns Aston Martin. As of right now, any paddle shifter that appears on a Ford product, like my Mustang, will be a derivative of the Italian system.

C.

Ok I think were almost done here, but there still seems to be a few crossed wires yet.


“You have nothing to base that on, but your amateur opinion. OTOH, the professionals that I've spoken to say that their experience is quite different.”

All I’m saying about this point is that pros do make mistakes, and what about say, a four car battle, constantly out breaking each other, with a little bit of over steer thrown in for good measure, there are moments when you need to keep both hands on the wheel, it’s during these moments that a F1 box is the better option.


“I don't see the point you're making here at all. You're now claiming that any idiot using a paddle shifter could beat a professional using a standard shifter because they don't have to concentrate as much on changing gears? That's the silliest thing I've heard on this thread yet.”

NO,NO,NO absolutely not, this is not what I’m saying at all, that’s your biggest insult so far. The idiots lap time would be awful, he may not even make it around for one lap: -
His breaking would be too early, too late and generally poor,
His cornering wouldn’t be on the right lines and generally poor.
He would have poor judgement on pretty much everything and wouldn’t be able to react to his mistakes,
He wouldn’t be able to feel the car nor push it near its limits,
However when he changed gears he would do so quickly, efficiently and without any hassle (weather he would select them at the right moment isn’t relevant to this point) and in this area he would be virtually as quick as a pro.
This is what I’m saying, for the majority of people, having a F1 box adds to their ability, not subtract from it!



“You must be new to this online thing as that is not how things work. If you are going to make statements of fact, then you are going to be asked to back them up with some evidence. If you are then going to claim that there are articles and professional opinions out there that support you, then you need to produce them. Else you cannot expect your opinion to be highly valued at all.”

I’ve already stated I’m not about to post links, you’re the one who initiated this discussion by stating that the vanquish was superior to anything Ferrari had, this would include such models as the 575, Challenge Stradale and the Enzo, why don’t you back up your claim with some valid proof?

“The vanquish”

This must mean that Ford hasn’t introduced a paddle shift onto a single road car yet! Because contrary to what you may believe, the vanquish is not a Ford, it may share a switch or two but people don’t buy a Ford vanquish, nor an Audi gallardo nor do people think that the latest model from Fiat is the Enzo. So until a paddle shift appears on a road car wearing the blue oval no one can say for sure how good it’ll be. Although If one were to appear on a mustang or a Ford GT, I would expect it to be a quality one, (I’m reasonable certain that it wouldn’t fall off the steering wheel!)

“This is seriously getting redundant. AGAIN... Ferrari's paddle shifter was designed by Magnetti Marelli. So was Aston Martin's. Ford owns Aston Martin. As of right now, any paddle shifter that appears on a Ford product, like my Mustang, will be a derivative of the Italian system.”

Fair enough, but you say this like Ferrari buys these gearboxes off the shelf, not true, Ferrari have had a long and close relationship with Magneti Marelli, and this is more of a joint venture which MM certainly didn’t do alone.

I have the paddle shifts. :smokin:

I agree 100%. Ford would be the last company I would want bringing this great feature to American cars. They will mess it up in someway, but get an A for effort... LOL. :silly2:

Well, not necessarily though. If you look at the Aston Martin DB9 it has one of the smoothest F1 gearboxes around. And as we all know Aston Martin, even though it 's not engineered by Ford, is owned by Ford. Therefore they can very well take the gearbox from an Aston.

hmm, can we kinda leave the very specific 'paddle shift' and talk about the semi-auto style change as a whole instead.

from what i gather, what most people don't like is that while the actual changing of gear is a very quick process, there is almost always a delay between you selecting the gear and the gear engaging
and
if the gearbox just shoves cogs together, there is usualy a jolt (which is what the blip was for)

so in effect, while the semi-box, be it paddle or otherwise, can change gears faster than a person, the process as a whole tends to be marginally slower, slightly removed and as a whole, not as smooth.

another thing.
from what i gather, the gearbox in the vanquish doesn't like going into reverse gear.
does that make it a better gearbox?

from what i gather in the press, the best semi-auto boxes in a car currently are the double clutch from audi, the one in the mr-s, galllardo's e-gear and bmws smg as seen in the m3, all for different purposes.
i don't ever recall seeing them say anything particularly good about the aston martin or the ferrari systems.

all i hear about is these pencil dickk yuppies complain about a paddle shiter on an american car, and if anything, a paddle shift option is more of an owner's preference then anything else, so who in the hell are you to say what cars should have an F1 tranny or not? and if any american car should have a paddle shifter set up it would be the new corvette. pared with a head's up display. the only other experiance close enout to driving such a machine would be flying an F/A-18E super hornet.


P.S america created the high performence sportscar. dont forget your god damn roots and hide behind a $200,000 window sticker

Very old thread....let it go.