FIA proposed cost cutting rules.
Veyron
01-15-2003, 03:01 PM
Read all about it on grandprix.com Go to news page. I don't think all these will be approved by the teams, but it's worth reading.:)
ales
01-15-2003, 04:01 PM
I'll be taking my precious long time before I comment - to read thoroughl and see how what will happen. But I must say right away that banning pit-to-car radio communication is plain stupid!
RallyRaider
01-15-2003, 06:15 PM
Banning radio communications between driver and pit :eek: Hell of a way to stop team orders!
Quarantine cars between qualifying and race - Bye bye qualifying specials and maybe even setups!
One engine for 2 then 6 races - If you blow an engine in one race are you then screwed for the next 5?
No spare cars - What will Schumacher Sr do when it looks like rain?
Bloody hell! Next Max will get rid of the road corses and introduce ovals? Seems he wants an open wheeler form of NASCAR :bloated:
Quarantine cars between qualifying and race - Bye bye qualifying specials and maybe even setups!
One engine for 2 then 6 races - If you blow an engine in one race are you then screwed for the next 5?
No spare cars - What will Schumacher Sr do when it looks like rain?
Bloody hell! Next Max will get rid of the road corses and introduce ovals? Seems he wants an open wheeler form of NASCAR :bloated:
ales
01-16-2003, 03:37 AM
Alrite.
Here is the "short" version.
http://www.fia.com/PRESSE/F1-A/2003/15-01-2003-Measures.pdf
eliminate pit to car telemetry
All for. Goodby DC's engine in Monaco 2002 and JPM's overtaking maneuvre on Heitfield whwen BMW just upped his revs on the straight.
eliminate car to pit telemetry;
All for. Or rather have nothing against tis proposal.
eliminate all radio communication between team and driver;
Why? Bloody hell why??? Are we going back to the stoneage? I want to see racing when instant and non-orthodox changes in tactics can bring victory. I want the team to be able to tell the driver to get the hell out of the burning car if he is unawareof the fire, I want the team to be able to tell the driver that there is a problem on the track somewhere. I want the driver to be able to tell the team that he has developed a problem and is coming in. I want to see the brilliance of Ross Brawn's tactical mind. How is it a cost cutting measure?????? The radio systems are not THAT expensive to and it's not an area that needs constant development, and all teams already have the bloody radio systems that they can pretty well use for years to come!
There has to be a reason. Is it to ensure that there are no team orders? Good luck. First of all, the FIA have full access to team radios and would know about team orders. And the teams are not that stupid - they will prolong the pitstop, they will have a pre-arranged agreement and/or some covert signal on the pit board.
Is it to ensure radio communication is not used for two-way telemetry? well, just make sure the radio system is disconnected from any other system, especially the ECU and stuff.
So far this is the proposal that has angered me the most as I fail to see the necessity in making the top motorsport series amateurish. Even amateurs now how two-way radios.
allow only two cars per team (ie no spare car);
This will hit smaller teams with generall not too reliable cars uch more than bigger teams. Ferrari (at least one of them :)) were bloody bulletproof in 2002.
place cars in parc fermι between final qualifying and the race (teams will be unable to work on them, except under strict supervision);
Why????? What if the car is crashed or has developed a big problem on the cool-down lap of the "superpole"? How is starting the race with an unrelible or even broken car cost cutting? It's not even safe! And I'm sure sponsors will love it when some teams are unable to even start the race because the cars are plain and simple broken.
eliminate traction control, launch control and fully automatic gearboxes
All for (and even more so!) We have seen the last of Renaults' amazing starts and we wil see less youngsters on the pace. I'm sure we'll see a lot more spins too :) Might bring out JPM's better qualities to the fore as he has amazing car control (at least had it in CART). And I expect Coulthard to beat Kimi this season - unfortunately. Though I really really really doubt it will slow MS too much. He'll have less buttons to play with when he's miles ahead of the opposition and lose concentration and give his fans a heart attack (US 2001).
To sum it up - while I feel most of the proposed changes are beneficial, some are plain and simple stupid. At least now, when the FIA gave no explanation as to the reasons behind them. I hope that during discussion with the teams those ridiculous ones are left out and we get a sport that we wan to have.
Alex
thoughts on post-2003 proposals coming up.
Here is the "short" version.
http://www.fia.com/PRESSE/F1-A/2003/15-01-2003-Measures.pdf
eliminate pit to car telemetry
All for. Goodby DC's engine in Monaco 2002 and JPM's overtaking maneuvre on Heitfield whwen BMW just upped his revs on the straight.
eliminate car to pit telemetry;
All for. Or rather have nothing against tis proposal.
eliminate all radio communication between team and driver;
Why? Bloody hell why??? Are we going back to the stoneage? I want to see racing when instant and non-orthodox changes in tactics can bring victory. I want the team to be able to tell the driver to get the hell out of the burning car if he is unawareof the fire, I want the team to be able to tell the driver that there is a problem on the track somewhere. I want the driver to be able to tell the team that he has developed a problem and is coming in. I want to see the brilliance of Ross Brawn's tactical mind. How is it a cost cutting measure?????? The radio systems are not THAT expensive to and it's not an area that needs constant development, and all teams already have the bloody radio systems that they can pretty well use for years to come!
There has to be a reason. Is it to ensure that there are no team orders? Good luck. First of all, the FIA have full access to team radios and would know about team orders. And the teams are not that stupid - they will prolong the pitstop, they will have a pre-arranged agreement and/or some covert signal on the pit board.
Is it to ensure radio communication is not used for two-way telemetry? well, just make sure the radio system is disconnected from any other system, especially the ECU and stuff.
So far this is the proposal that has angered me the most as I fail to see the necessity in making the top motorsport series amateurish. Even amateurs now how two-way radios.
allow only two cars per team (ie no spare car);
This will hit smaller teams with generall not too reliable cars uch more than bigger teams. Ferrari (at least one of them :)) were bloody bulletproof in 2002.
place cars in parc fermι between final qualifying and the race (teams will be unable to work on them, except under strict supervision);
Why????? What if the car is crashed or has developed a big problem on the cool-down lap of the "superpole"? How is starting the race with an unrelible or even broken car cost cutting? It's not even safe! And I'm sure sponsors will love it when some teams are unable to even start the race because the cars are plain and simple broken.
eliminate traction control, launch control and fully automatic gearboxes
All for (and even more so!) We have seen the last of Renaults' amazing starts and we wil see less youngsters on the pace. I'm sure we'll see a lot more spins too :) Might bring out JPM's better qualities to the fore as he has amazing car control (at least had it in CART). And I expect Coulthard to beat Kimi this season - unfortunately. Though I really really really doubt it will slow MS too much. He'll have less buttons to play with when he's miles ahead of the opposition and lose concentration and give his fans a heart attack (US 2001).
To sum it up - while I feel most of the proposed changes are beneficial, some are plain and simple stupid. At least now, when the FIA gave no explanation as to the reasons behind them. I hope that during discussion with the teams those ridiculous ones are left out and we get a sport that we wan to have.
Alex
thoughts on post-2003 proposals coming up.
ales
01-16-2003, 03:56 AM
http://www.fia.com/PRESSE/F1-A/2003/15-01-2003-Measures.pdf
... and that it intends to introduce sporting rules for 2004 which will
require the use of a standard braking system;
Bah!
require the use of a standard rear wing;
Bah! Again. If these are indeed pushed through, goodbye Formula 1. Yes, the races will be closer, but then they might as well introduce mandatory pitstops during certain pitstop windows. This is F1. This is the bloodu pinnacle of motorsport. Bernie, Max, get a clue! We don't want a standardized series. We have IRL and CART for that. We don't want another CART. We already have one thank you very much. So artificially making the cars run closer is cheap and disgusting. I think I'll be switching the cable provider and will watch bikes instead. :rolleyes:
require the use of long-life components;
Yeah whatever.
ensure that car manufacturers involved in Formula One supply engines to all competing teams;
Don't care.
and that for 2005 it intends to bring in further sporting rules to require
engine life to be extended from one to two races;
Don't care. Should be interesting to see though.
a further extension to the life of major components;
:rolleyes:
new penalties for engine or component changes outside permitted times;
Yawn.
and that for 2006 it intends to bring in a further sporting rule to require
engine life to be extended to six races;
If you say so.
and that it will seek the agreement of the teams to introduce a new technical regulation to
eliminate the use of expensive exotic materials in any part of the car,
including the engine.
Oh I know!!!!!!!!!!!! Let's make cars of wood (unexotic enough?) and engines from steel!!! Also use steel wheels and plastic steering wheels. Might as well use housefold switches in the cockpits (very good for limiting the amount of electronic gizmos - there will be no room for all the controls! :D ) and while we're at it, and since the braking system is supposed to be standardized anyway - why not use the braking systems from the mk2 Ford Fiesta? They're cheap!
Bottom line - I don't want to see another standardized racing series with artificially close-runnign cars made of stoneage materials. So 2003 will be the last year of F1 as we know it if the FIA proposals go through. Enjoy it while you can.
full text can be found here: http://www.fia.com/PRESSE/F1-A/2003/15-01-2003-Note.pdf I can't be bothered (at this time at least) to give my comments on the full text. I'll be waiting eagerly for the reaction of the teams and of course looking forward to reading what all of you have to say on the matter.
Alex
... and that it intends to introduce sporting rules for 2004 which will
require the use of a standard braking system;
Bah!
require the use of a standard rear wing;
Bah! Again. If these are indeed pushed through, goodbye Formula 1. Yes, the races will be closer, but then they might as well introduce mandatory pitstops during certain pitstop windows. This is F1. This is the bloodu pinnacle of motorsport. Bernie, Max, get a clue! We don't want a standardized series. We have IRL and CART for that. We don't want another CART. We already have one thank you very much. So artificially making the cars run closer is cheap and disgusting. I think I'll be switching the cable provider and will watch bikes instead. :rolleyes:
require the use of long-life components;
Yeah whatever.
ensure that car manufacturers involved in Formula One supply engines to all competing teams;
Don't care.
and that for 2005 it intends to bring in further sporting rules to require
engine life to be extended from one to two races;
Don't care. Should be interesting to see though.
a further extension to the life of major components;
:rolleyes:
new penalties for engine or component changes outside permitted times;
Yawn.
and that for 2006 it intends to bring in a further sporting rule to require
engine life to be extended to six races;
If you say so.
and that it will seek the agreement of the teams to introduce a new technical regulation to
eliminate the use of expensive exotic materials in any part of the car,
including the engine.
Oh I know!!!!!!!!!!!! Let's make cars of wood (unexotic enough?) and engines from steel!!! Also use steel wheels and plastic steering wheels. Might as well use housefold switches in the cockpits (very good for limiting the amount of electronic gizmos - there will be no room for all the controls! :D ) and while we're at it, and since the braking system is supposed to be standardized anyway - why not use the braking systems from the mk2 Ford Fiesta? They're cheap!
Bottom line - I don't want to see another standardized racing series with artificially close-runnign cars made of stoneage materials. So 2003 will be the last year of F1 as we know it if the FIA proposals go through. Enjoy it while you can.
full text can be found here: http://www.fia.com/PRESSE/F1-A/2003/15-01-2003-Note.pdf I can't be bothered (at this time at least) to give my comments on the full text. I'll be waiting eagerly for the reaction of the teams and of course looking forward to reading what all of you have to say on the matter.
Alex
RallyRaider
01-16-2003, 04:39 AM
Originally posted by ales
So 2003 will be the last year of F1 as we know it
Naa... that was 1997. :rolleyes:
So 2003 will be the last year of F1 as we know it
Naa... that was 1997. :rolleyes:
Neutrino
01-16-2003, 06:30 AM
FIA just doesn't get the tricks is not putting more rules but removing some of the rules.The rule that i find the stupidest was puting treads on slics and saying that by reducing traction it will force them to go slower and therfore making it safer. Now in wich stupid world having crappy tires is safer??? If i see someone destrying the tread on my tire and stating that it will improve my safety i would beat the snot out of him.
Those new rules have the same inteligence in tme.:mad: .Crap if FIA manages to trash F1 all i'll have left is WRC since i'm not too much into bikes.
Those new rules have the same inteligence in tme.:mad: .Crap if FIA manages to trash F1 all i'll have left is WRC since i'm not too much into bikes.
Veyron
01-16-2003, 07:39 AM
To sum it up, there needs to be a couple of funerals at the top of FIA!:eek: :devil:
ales
01-16-2003, 07:46 AM
So far:
Frank Williams - reasonably pro
Eddie Jordan - very much pro
Paul Stoddart - same as EJ
Ron Dennis - seems very disappointed
No idea about the rest at this point. And also here are Michael's views
http://www.pitpass.com/news2/news.cfm?newsid=4456
Alex
Frank Williams - reasonably pro
Eddie Jordan - very much pro
Paul Stoddart - same as EJ
Ron Dennis - seems very disappointed
No idea about the rest at this point. And also here are Michael's views
http://www.pitpass.com/news2/news.cfm?newsid=4456
Alex
ales
01-16-2003, 09:36 AM
Toyota now voiced their "reserved" yes - they hope there will be constructive discussion.
Guido
01-16-2003, 02:49 PM
If Ron is very disappointed, I'm very disappointed.
This whole dam thing is becoming a big farce. Mr. Mosley doesn't seem to understand that F1 is the top showcase of what the Automotive industry can develop, create and supply. Let's not forget that whatever is engineered and pioneered in F-1 will make it's way through to production cars - active body control, brake by wire, drive by wire etc. etc. It IS a technical showcase and it should stay that way!
These regulation changes are only made because they are scared to loose audience and they don't have faith in the teams to spice up the show. NO-ONE cried this shit when McLaren dominated in the late '80 early '90s and NO-ONE cried the same shit when Williams did the same thing thereafter. It's just the nature of modern F1 that 1 team focuses all his efforts in a damn good car that lasts for 2 to 4 years. The competition makes up - does the same thing focus and be cool for 2 to 4 years, and so it goes round and round and round. I'm pretty sure one team or another is going to kick Ferrari's ass in the years to come - regardless new regulations or not! And after that another will come for the same period etc.
If they want a low-cost championship with equal changes to all drivers - GO DO THE FORMULA FORD CUP OR THE CLIO CUP, for crying out loud.
Although I'm a huge McLaren fan, I'll be watching more DTM and WRC this year, then this crazy business. I'll stay foot and see what the future of F1 holds.
Guido
This whole dam thing is becoming a big farce. Mr. Mosley doesn't seem to understand that F1 is the top showcase of what the Automotive industry can develop, create and supply. Let's not forget that whatever is engineered and pioneered in F-1 will make it's way through to production cars - active body control, brake by wire, drive by wire etc. etc. It IS a technical showcase and it should stay that way!
These regulation changes are only made because they are scared to loose audience and they don't have faith in the teams to spice up the show. NO-ONE cried this shit when McLaren dominated in the late '80 early '90s and NO-ONE cried the same shit when Williams did the same thing thereafter. It's just the nature of modern F1 that 1 team focuses all his efforts in a damn good car that lasts for 2 to 4 years. The competition makes up - does the same thing focus and be cool for 2 to 4 years, and so it goes round and round and round. I'm pretty sure one team or another is going to kick Ferrari's ass in the years to come - regardless new regulations or not! And after that another will come for the same period etc.
If they want a low-cost championship with equal changes to all drivers - GO DO THE FORMULA FORD CUP OR THE CLIO CUP, for crying out loud.
Although I'm a huge McLaren fan, I'll be watching more DTM and WRC this year, then this crazy business. I'll stay foot and see what the future of F1 holds.
Guido
ales
01-16-2003, 03:05 PM
I'm with you, Guido. Mostly.
I think the reason they start the bs now is that it is not the british team which is dominating. I hate to say this, but I feel this is the way it is in reality. Brits consider F1 ""theirs" and can't stand it when they are not winning. (Hopefully, the British members will see my point not as a personal attack).
I'd hate to be the real McLaren fan right now - seems the FIA doesn't believe their team can beat Ferrari without the help from the rules. And I am really looking forward to what the Macs will do this season. I have a sneay suspicion they have something special and will be able to fight Ferrari.
There is one VERY IMPORTANT point I forgot to mention (actually, more like 2 points:) ):
There has been NOTHING done to make sure the teams that are in financial troubles NOW (Jordan and Minardi) are on the safe side NOW. And a more important one - if they really wanted to help the lesser teams, they should have rethought the principles of dividing TV money. 51% of it go to Bernie, and the rest are unequally divided between the teams. So I say Bernie, dear Bernie, control your greed and make sure everyone gets enough. There.
Alex
I think the reason they start the bs now is that it is not the british team which is dominating. I hate to say this, but I feel this is the way it is in reality. Brits consider F1 ""theirs" and can't stand it when they are not winning. (Hopefully, the British members will see my point not as a personal attack).
I'd hate to be the real McLaren fan right now - seems the FIA doesn't believe their team can beat Ferrari without the help from the rules. And I am really looking forward to what the Macs will do this season. I have a sneay suspicion they have something special and will be able to fight Ferrari.
There is one VERY IMPORTANT point I forgot to mention (actually, more like 2 points:) ):
There has been NOTHING done to make sure the teams that are in financial troubles NOW (Jordan and Minardi) are on the safe side NOW. And a more important one - if they really wanted to help the lesser teams, they should have rethought the principles of dividing TV money. 51% of it go to Bernie, and the rest are unequally divided between the teams. So I say Bernie, dear Bernie, control your greed and make sure everyone gets enough. There.
Alex
Guido
01-16-2003, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by ales
I'm with you, Guido. Mostly.
I'd hate to be the real McLaren fan right now - seems the FIA doesn't believe their team can beat Ferrari without the help from the rules. And I am really looking forward to what the Macs will do this season. I have a sneay suspicion they have something special and will be able to fight Ferrari.
Alex
You bet they are. DC has been setting the pace this week in Spain during wintertesting, so it looks promising...
I'm with you, Guido. Mostly.
I'd hate to be the real McLaren fan right now - seems the FIA doesn't believe their team can beat Ferrari without the help from the rules. And I am really looking forward to what the Macs will do this season. I have a sneay suspicion they have something special and will be able to fight Ferrari.
Alex
You bet they are. DC has been setting the pace this week in Spain during wintertesting, so it looks promising...
ales
01-17-2003, 02:08 AM
Originally posted by huudo
You bet they are. DC has been setting the pace this week in Spain during wintertesting, so it looks promising...
McLaren were also breaking lap records last year in winter testing, as was Prost ;)
You bet they are. DC has been setting the pace this week in Spain during wintertesting, so it looks promising...
McLaren were also breaking lap records last year in winter testing, as was Prost ;)
Veyron
01-17-2003, 01:05 PM
McLaren were also breaking lap records last year in winter testing, as was Prost
Yep, testing always paints a pretty picture of everyones times, then when the season starts, it's :crying:
Yep, testing always paints a pretty picture of everyones times, then when the season starts, it's :crying:
NSX
01-17-2003, 07:18 PM
Speaking of British teams, any word on BAR, or is it BAT now?
Menu dei Motori
01-19-2003, 02:58 PM
i΄ve also heard about these changes...
that΄s really horrible!!!:(
that΄s really horrible!!!:(
Guido
01-20-2003, 04:54 AM
Well GPWC, who groups all car manufacturers, is very much against the new regulations! I wonder what Max and Bernie will do when they indeed start their announced brake away series in 2008! We'll see how much will be left over when Ferrari, Mercedes, Ford, Renault and BMW pull out of F-1... right nothing.
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