Getting dumber?

Why is it that there are more students in schools these days who have no ambition to learn? Im surrounded by people at my school who scoff at books by authors such as Thoreau and Emerson, saying that their writings dont mean anything and call them "boring" and "stupid", people try to get into intellectual arguments with other people and use words completely out of context, some of them they dont even know what they mean, then you have people who fail math because they cant add properly. honestly? what happened to work ethics in school? Ive seen people goof off all day for the entire semester in classes and then bomb their final and wonder what happened. I see people reading magazines or drawing or sleeping in class. This leads me to believe that a lot of people these days dont care how they end up in life, they have no goal set for themself so they figure "oh, I dont know how to do it, so I wont try". This isnt really what irritates me about all of it, its the fact that the teachers see it happening and they dont say anything about it, they just let it happen. perhaps its a case of salutary neglect? who knows, I just think its sad that people who have potential to become anything they want just sit and piss their life away because they are lazy and dont feel like learning anything because it looks "lame" or its "too hard". Life is hard sometimes and in this day and age, if you dont have an education or dont know something about something, you end up having a career that requires saying "would you like fries with that"

Fascinating sentiments. And I thought I was the only one...
I finished high school recently (November) and can agree with every one. I actively participated actively in every class (except Maths - that I just plain sucked at) and took something positive away, in most cases enjoying the experience. My final marks however did reflect an attitude towards life that I do not regret - a balance. I got a high than average mark - but not outstanding. I also enjoyed things throughout my final year such as friends, parties, leadership, holidays, hiking, camping, new part time job etc.

Good luck in school, however long you have left to go, and I hope you take away from the experience what YOU want out of it - not what is acceptable to your peers. And just think - they'll be that much easier to beat at the end. :)

Well, maybe that's what YOU think.

I on the other hand, am/was one of those people with no ambition to learn. Or so it seemed. I goofed off all day just to piss my teachers off, i got bad grades and I didn't care. My math teacher even said something about her not wanting to pay the taxes for my stay at prison.

Now I'm at the University of Massachusetts College of Engineering...ironic how in 4 years ill be making twice as much money as her, and after working for the same amount of years that she has, i'll be in the 6 digits.

That's right, i goofed off all through high school, because high school is a JOKE. No If's and's or but's. My high school was extra bad - just this past semester there were aobut 15 or so students all suspended right before Christmas break because they were giving out Bible literature with candy. Yes, our whole school system was made fun of by one of the big rock stations around here too, to no end. Heehee:devil:

Now I'll agree and say that sure, there are those that will just jerkoff all day and ecome wastes. But think about my whole argument when you see half of the people you see as wastes. Like, you know the one who seems pretty smart and funny, but doesnt do good in school, nor seems to care....;)

So how did you get into college, Steel?

Time for an 'old guy' rant here..........

Quite honestly,it's down to the teachers.They can't maintain order,and are more interested in being 'political correctness' than hard facts and true knowledge.Most of the teaching profesion is underskilled,the school system does not want to tackle the issues of dicipline and effort,and the qualifications and education requirements for higher education have been watered down to reflect the piss poor performance of high schools in general.
Back when I was in school,higher education was a priviledge only granted to those who were talented and hardworking[unless you went to a private school,and Daddy knew the right people].Thesedays Universities seem to be offering degree courses in just about any subject,however bizarre or subjective,just to boost their student numbers.

LOL :sleep:

Originally posted by ILike2DriveCars
...Im surrounded by people at my school who scoff at books by authors such as Thoreau and Emerson, saying that their writings dont mean anything and call them "boring" and "stupid", people try to get into intellectual arguments with other people and use words completely out of context, some of them they dont even know what they mean, then you have people who fail math because they cant add properly. ...

And then you have those students who haven't a clue how to punctuate, and forget capitalizing....

Just poking fun. Seriously, though, there's a serious decline in school nowadays, with lowered academic standards and such. So, I'm with you. BTW, Mr. T, part of the reason the teachers can't maintain discipline is fear of being sued for harassment or abuse.

:mad: BTW, AFers (not you, ILike2Drive, I'm thinking of Yogs, Moppie, and many, many others here), the word "it's" is a CONTRACTION of the words "it" and "is" and is NEVER, hear me, NEVER, to be used as a possessive pronoun. Do you use an apostrophe when saying hers, his, theirs, ours, yours? You damn well better not!

The following sentence is incorrect:
I think we have seen it's limitations. IN THIS INSTANCE IT IS INAPPROPRIATE TO USE AN APOSTROPHE. The appropriate use of "it's" is as follows: It's a good product.

DO WE HAVE THAT CLEARED UP?!?!?! :mad: :mad:

:uhoh: :biggrin2:

Originally posted by boingo82


BTW, Mr. T, part of the reason the teachers can't maintain discipline is fear of being sued for harassment or abuse.

:

Not the case in New Zealand,thankfully.People are much,much slower to go to court in this country.I truly believe that the 'anti-corporal punishment' brigade have got it wrong.Discipline is about compliance or facing the consequences.If the consequences don't scare the pupils,you're never going to get the compliance.

Also,I'm not sure about the U.S., but the teaching industry in New Zealand is now largely staffed by women.With so many families running without a father,it must be really hard for boys to get to grips with the skills that will make them into men.

Originally posted by taranaki
Not the case in New Zealand,thankfully.People are much,much slower to go to court in this country.I truly believe that the 'anti-corporal punishment' brigade have got it wrong.Discipline is about compliance or facing the consequences.If the consequences don't scare the pupils,you're never going to get the compliance.

Also,I'm not sure about the U.S., but the teaching industry in New Zealand is now largely staffed by women.With so many families running without a father,it must be really hard for boys to get to grips with the skills that will make them into men.

well said T. and about your comment about being staffed by mostly women.

I feel sorry for male teachers these days. especially early school level. All you need is some child to exaggerate something "my teacher touched me funny" (and kids do lie and exaggerate), and the teacher will quite often get screwed. And it's getting worse with kids realising they can use the abuse card these days. They don't understand what it means and the consequences behind it.

Alot of teenagers especially here have less and less respect for teachers. They then taunt and complain at teachers who then lose their drive to actually teach these kids anything.

Originally posted by Oz
So how did you get into college, Steel?

oh yeah, 1450 on my SAT's and something good on my ACT's, and i DID do good in AP German and AP Physics.;)

I wish my school offered AP German, I had to settle for AP Spanish. :rolleyes:

I haven't inserted my 2 cents into the meter for a while so all those newbies who are incredulous at the length of the attached post... Hush! You'll get over it someday.

I've read a lot of material in the past few years about the phenomenon mentioned in the posts on this thread. Having worked in the world of spin (public relations/marketing and advertising) for a while and having spent a good deal of my life in institutions (the educational kind) in one way or another - here are some observations:

Attention spans and spin
As the diffusion of mass media transferred from the written word (ie print) to the spoken word (wireless) to the televised messages - the messages we have been transmitted and received have progressively reduced in their content.

Most televised news programs have item lengths of less than 3 minutes which has meant issues have to be broken down to their simplest elements. Often because of the irregular pattern of reception of broadcasts, the whole issue has to be outlined, discussed and summarised each time. This is in contrast to the journals that the print media can effectively use to provide the detailed background and explanation that can explain the complexity of issues that deserve.

Elections are not won or lost on the 50 page manifesto any more, we are more likely to have the media simplify the election to a single issue choice rather than delving into the comprehensive and complex policies that each choice entails.

Education
In New Zealand at least and a lot of other countries we have seen the profession of teaching lose stature and respect within our communities. It is not an aspirational occupation any more. We have also seen a wholesale shift associated with a change in the composition of the teaching profession to political correctness to the extreme. Children are now given the message of participation and minimum achievement benchmarks as opposed to a culture of excellence and competitiveness.

A close friend of mine has observed that the profession has changed from conservative folk focussed on teaching skills such as reading, spelling, grammar and mathematics with a focus on sporting excellence to one where a bunch of ex-hippies provide messages about creativity, worrying about participation and making everyone feel good about themselves.

Now I hated some of my teachers. Some of them had no business being in a classroom influencing the minds of children or in fact being in contact with normal human beings. On the other hand, some of them inspired me, some of them gave me the appropriate channels for my aspirations, some of them gave me enough room to grow and some of taught a pile of lessons from the school of experience too.

But when it comes to full participation and creative outlets - I'm sorry but in the real world ie the one where I could be your employer - if you can't spell, read, write an intelligible and grammatical correct application letter or have a conversation on the telephone using appropriate vocabulary and politeness - then don't ask me for a job.

I'm an overachiever but I ain't going to apologise if I trample you along the way to get there - although I'll try and be nice about it when I do. No-one excels at something unless they truly strive for excellence.

And finally, Emily you can now see someone at AF can use the apostrophe correctly.

Comments on the teaching profession:
These comments apply to my personal experience as a member of a family with a teacher of 20+ years in it, and as someone who has just concluded 13 years in the Australian education system.

The first part of the problem is the necessity to have alarge amount of teachers because of the amounts of kids in the system. The second part of the problem is the fact that the majority (90%) are paid by the government, leading to pathetic pay rates for professionals with 2 degrees and 20 years of experience.
The other side of this is ZERO respect from members of the public. Witness attitude above (no offence guys). This is mainly because teachers have to fight like cats and dogs for every dollar they get paid in a thankless job. Add to this a less-than-stellar portrayal by the media and you have to think WHO THE FUCK WOULD WANT TO BE A TEACHER? No one who could succeed in ANY other profession would take this one by choice. This means that with a severe lack of new graduates coming through to replace the old ones, the government has had to lower entry standards to a laughable level (ANY person from my graduating grade could have become a teacher if they finished the degree - scary). So you have an average age of teachers now somewhere at high 40s and growing at about .7-.8 per year.

All of this contributes to the slow-motion destruction of the education systems. My Mum quit teaching in June 2002, after 23 years to pursue a career in Real Estate. She now makes 3x what she did teaching and has told me she will smack me over the back of the head if I choose teaching through a lack of other options.

Rep - I think we're turning the post whore tide. :wave:

Nobody yet seems to have latched onto the fact that we have tended to offload the enire responsibility for our childrens'education onto the state.It wasn't that long ago that children were taught,coached,encouraged and disciplined from the moment they woke,to the moment their head hit the pillow[or later if they had a bedtime story.Thesedays,we have a culture of 'me first' which means that Mum and Dad spend less and less time with their most valuable assets[kids] and spend more and more time working to provide their children with material wealth that is no substitute for knowledge.Couple that with a state education system that teaches how to pass exams rather than the subtleties of the subjects,and what to think rather than how to think for yourself,and we are producing a generation of lesser people.

Excellent remarks, people! I was a teacher for about 3 years and I was treated like crap by all but a few people:angryfire I was moved around to 3 different schools because the board of education had a "plan". I left the profession and am now a treatment counselor that gets treated like crap but I get a sense of accomplishment from my career; I still see some of the children I used to teach and some of them tell me that I was their favorite teacher. Kinda sentimental but as was stated above, it's kind of hard to go to a job that's basically looked upon as a joke.:( I am, however, deeply involved in the education of my own 2 children; I am always interested in what they're learning and my wife (another former teacher) are constantly involving them in the educational process while making sure they have a healthy attitude toward learning. I agree that too many people depend on others for their own children's education.

I agree there is most deffinatly a problem somewhere in the system. I'm not sure where but it's out there and we need to find it. I have two friends who both share this additude that school and education in general is a big joke. Well I won't lie my high school flat out sucked and no I didn't try as hard as I should have but even slacking off I still pulled off above average grades. I often wondered if my school would just pass anyone, I mean my one friend that is still in high school has done nothing his whole time there yet I can assure you he will graduate. I find it both sad and dissapointing that we as a society support the additude that we can just give up if things are "hard", instead of tring a different way of teaching in order to help those people learn. We all learn a different way, I am a very hands on kind of learner (which is why I am majoring in Chemistry, a very hands on science :) ). but instead of tring different ways we teach the same old way we always have and those that are naturally very smart do very well no matter what, and those that would learn better if taught a different way are just seen as "dumb or stupid" (instead of geting the oppertunity to be taught a different way) and so they accept this label and don't try anymore. very sad, good luck to all of you whatever career path you choose.:)

I have a lot to say about all this.

First, I do not really blame the teachers for poor educational standards. I blame more the parents, and ultimately society (yes, isn't that such a liberal position to take?). For example, look at the Osbournes. Both Jack and Kelly are high school dropouts, and not sure about Jack, but Kelly is embarking on a singing career, that promises to be lucrative, at least on a short term basis. Parents give their kids so little attention these days, that the idea of family has thinned and been watered down to parents and children living under one roof, and maybe having one meal together a day. Kids just don’t care anymore, and I think it is primarily because of parental neglect. The idea of TV and internet becoming the surrogate mom and pop seems all too common.

About teachers, I have a friend from college, a guy, that has taught high school for about a year and a half now. He has already had at least three incidents of girls going to the powers that be, falsely accusing him of sexual harassment, or something along those lines, he claims because he gave them bad grades. He just has the gall to fail a “don’t give a shit” kid. In these cases, the school has apologized and begged him to stay on with them. It is not bullshit, it happens.

For me personally, I think that teaching is a very honorable profession... and not one that I would touch with a 10-foot pole. Echoing sentiments stated above, there is just no money in it, generally speaking. There are high end gigs that pay pretty well (I have a friend that teaches public school in one of the richest counties in the state of CT, and also the country, and he is in his late 50's, and makes about $75K), but generally it just doesn't pay. Aside from taking crap from students, it is tough work, and to me, just not worth the effort you put in. Like pay increases in nursing in recent years, society needs to find more money to make these all-important careers more attractive to ambitious young people. For enough money, people will truly do anything (if you don’t believe me, just subject yourself to an episode of Fear Factor some time :rolleyes: )

About high school, I agree with Steel, that it is a joke. I had lots of friends in high school that were dropouts, cutting class chronically to drink, smoke, do drugs, or just goof off. And unfortunately, I think I burned myself out in high school a bit, as I worked very hard, and then slacked off much more in college. Now, I wish I had fucked off more in high school and applied myself more in college. Most of my friends that dropped out in high school just found their way to a career path a little later in life, that's all. Nothing wrong with that. One of them is now in grad. school at U Chicago at age 25, and another is a concierge at a plush hotel in Times Square, and puts my salary to shame. These are just two examples of people that screwed around in high school. Like I said, they just needed longer to find their own path, and rather then taking guidance from their parents, needed to experience for themselves the importance of applying themselves in life. Some people just learn that way. So where is my reward for staying the path, getting good grades in high school, and graduating from a prestigious college in four years?

As for the idea of many high school kids today being on a path to nowhere, because they don’t give a shit, I don’t buy it. Hey, I hope it’s correct, because people like me that are ambitious will have an easier time of getting to the lofty places they wish to go, wading through the masses of people uninspired and without purpose. But I think they are gradually picking up on the idea that they can afford to coast through high school, and make up the needed ground later in life to find success and happiness. Not everyone will “make it,” of course, but many will. Many of my friends from high school are living proof.

Rep, can’t respond to all of your observations, but they are interesting and well-stated.

And boingo, thank you; the butchering of grammar that goes on is astounding, but I have simply just chosen to ignore it most of the time. Glad that someone else notices.

Yes, another point, what is it with women who think they can just go around falsely accusing men of sexual harassment, as in JD's post? That's one thing that really REALLY pisses me off. I dunno what else to say now because I'm so pissed. Sorry.:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Pay is definetley an issue in the quality of teachers an area can get. My home school district pays 2/3 what most of our teachers could make in surrounding counties, which are in many cases equally distant from their homes. The school board isn't so much to blame here as they have no power to tax. The board of supervisors, however, do have the power to raise taxes and continue to refuse to do so even though it's an absolute necessity. That's just our situation. But it shows that in some cases the authorities in charge of the schools do work for the teachers and students. Remember the Gold Rule: He who has the gold, makes the rules.

Education has gone down hill simply because nobody gives a crap anymore. Even parents and teachers don't give a crap.

Hmmm not sure if i agree, but i will agree that some parents are getting dumber

Originally posted by Scott 02
Hmmm not sure if i agree, but i will agree that some parents are getting dumber

I'm not sure if that's true, it's just that in this day and age of newer technology, its becoming harder & harder for everyone to keep up.
ie. In the AUtomotive world, there's no way you can keep up with all the news that happens everyday.

Originally posted by NSX


...in this day and age of newer technology, its becoming harder & harder for everyone to keep up.


I agree, just as the students are learning material from the teachers, the teachers themselves are learning different things that used to be taught a different way or things that hadn't been taught at all before. School nowadays is just as much a learning experience for the teachers as it is the students.

Originally posted by ILike2DriveCars
School nowadays is just as much a learning experience for the teachers as it is the students.

Yah, but I think the education system is flawed right now.