Okokok... Why is it that everytime
Earlsfat
11-29-2007, 10:03 PM
there's a good thread to flame the ever loving crap out of someone, it gets locked before I can hop in on the action?
I think the mods need to put a sticky up, maybe with the forum rules, that we camaro guys, most of us anyways, are fanatical about our cars (hence why we congretgate here) and don't take kindly to someone casting aspersions at us, or threatening to violate a perfectly innocent vehicle. (ON TOP of getting involved in another camaro owner's marital woes. I mean like, W.T.F.?)
Anyhoo, I think we need to have a flame forum or something, kinda like a forum heavy bag where we can go and just get ignorant with someone for having the balls and stupidity to throw themselves to the lions.
Your thoughts???
(Poor snake.)
I think the mods need to put a sticky up, maybe with the forum rules, that we camaro guys, most of us anyways, are fanatical about our cars (hence why we congretgate here) and don't take kindly to someone casting aspersions at us, or threatening to violate a perfectly innocent vehicle. (ON TOP of getting involved in another camaro owner's marital woes. I mean like, W.T.F.?)
Anyhoo, I think we need to have a flame forum or something, kinda like a forum heavy bag where we can go and just get ignorant with someone for having the balls and stupidity to throw themselves to the lions.
Your thoughts???
(Poor snake.)
Genopsyde
11-30-2007, 04:53 AM
Sorry, maybe I shouldn't have recommended locking it. You are about a week late on it tho.
Blackcrow64
11-30-2007, 06:57 AM
I thought thats what the Banter thread was kinda for? Anything goes?
Earlsfat
11-30-2007, 08:56 AM
Heh.. . I'm about a week late on EVERYTHING Geno. And I had all kinds of good stuff to say on that one, lmao.
BC, yeah but it's not the same. With the banter thread you get people whining about stupid crap in the middle of a good flaming, just because they don't want to read 500+ pages to catch up. If it had it's own forum it would be like... concentrated flaming. I could see some "internet bullying" issues coming out of that though.
Hmmm.... Maybe someone could tell her to come back and post up some more inflamatory tripe so I can get a piece of action... I'm in the middle of a huge no-flame dry spell.
BC, yeah but it's not the same. With the banter thread you get people whining about stupid crap in the middle of a good flaming, just because they don't want to read 500+ pages to catch up. If it had it's own forum it would be like... concentrated flaming. I could see some "internet bullying" issues coming out of that though.
Hmmm.... Maybe someone could tell her to come back and post up some more inflamatory tripe so I can get a piece of action... I'm in the middle of a huge no-flame dry spell.
wrightz28
11-30-2007, 09:22 AM
there's a good thread to flame the ever loving crap out of someone, it gets locked before I can hop in on the action?
bitch, bitch, bitch :swear:
:disappoin
snooze you lose. :icon16:
bitch, bitch, bitch :swear:
:disappoin
snooze you lose. :icon16:
Earlsfat
11-30-2007, 09:26 AM
Ehhh... a few cheesesteaks will make it all better.
I think I need to be a mod so I can unlock threads and flame people and relock them.
I think I need to be a mod so I can unlock threads and flame people and relock them.
wrightz28
11-30-2007, 09:32 AM
I think I need to be a mod so I can unlock threads and flame people and relock them.
I think you just sealed the fate on that one. :disappoin
You'd have alot of fun with spammers that's for sure :lol2:
I think you just sealed the fate on that one. :disappoin
You'd have alot of fun with spammers that's for sure :lol2:
cuda_dude
11-30-2007, 10:25 AM
haha, don't worry Jim... your day will come... next time we have a pmsing chick, I will throw you a PM
wrightz28
11-30-2007, 10:49 AM
haha, don't worry Jim... your day will come... next time we have a pmsing chick, I will throw you a PM
:yikes:
You really wnat to let him loose on somebody????
See Jim's idea of "ther perfect guard dog" in his posts, that's what I envision. :disappoin
:yikes:
You really wnat to let him loose on somebody????
See Jim's idea of "ther perfect guard dog" in his posts, that's what I envision. :disappoin
Earlsfat
11-30-2007, 12:21 PM
***Evil laugh*** haaaahaaaahaahaaaaaaaa... :devil:
Lemme At'em :smokin: :iceslolan :chair: :ylsuper: :bananasmi
Edit - Cuda, guess I'm extra charged up because I'm dealing with one of those at home. :disappoin THEM'S JUST JOKES HONEY! I DIDN'T MEAN IT! :smooch: :sorry:
Lemme At'em :smokin: :iceslolan :chair: :ylsuper: :bananasmi
Edit - Cuda, guess I'm extra charged up because I'm dealing with one of those at home. :disappoin THEM'S JUST JOKES HONEY! I DIDN'T MEAN IT! :smooch: :sorry:
stepho
11-30-2007, 05:11 PM
***Evil laugh*** haaaahaaaahaahaaaaaaaa... :devil:
Lemme At'em :smokin: :iceslolan :chair: :ylsuper: :bananasmi
Edit - Cuda, guess I'm extra charged up because I'm dealing with one of those at home. :disappoin THEM'S JUST JOKES HONEY! I DIDN'T MEAN IT! :smooch: :sorry:
YOUR WIFE IS TRYING TO PUT RD'S ENGINE IN HER MINIVAN!!!?!?!?!
Lemme At'em :smokin: :iceslolan :chair: :ylsuper: :bananasmi
Edit - Cuda, guess I'm extra charged up because I'm dealing with one of those at home. :disappoin THEM'S JUST JOKES HONEY! I DIDN'T MEAN IT! :smooch: :sorry:
YOUR WIFE IS TRYING TO PUT RD'S ENGINE IN HER MINIVAN!!!?!?!?!
Earlsfat
12-03-2007, 09:57 AM
Over my dead body. NO ONE touches RD but me and those deputized by me.
Deputization only comes after thorough research into ones knowledge of all things Chevrolet, ones ability to consume large quantities of non-girly alcoholic beverages, ones commitment to the cause of all things funny (such as farts, feeding dogs brussels sprouts, bad sex, farts, automotive mishaps, farts, hi-lights clips of great football hits and ... farts), ones commitment to ones buddies in times of need (RD not running, Jim out of beer / booze, no cheesesteak supplies in fridge, etc), ones ability to successfully fend off midgets whilst partaking of heinous carnage on Xbox 360, ones ability to successfully fend of intrusions by females into the sanctity of: Xbox 360 games, "working" on RD in the garage - or just being in the garage in general, a good laugh at a ridiculously long fart, etc, ones ability to aid in the renovation / construction process - amongst other technical qualifications. Only a limited few have actually passed these qualifications, and I can assure you that the only female to have passed these qualifications would be my wife only because she side-stepped the deputization process by providing "services" whilst I was: driving RD, working on RD, putting in a hardwood floor, playing Xbox 360, etc. (That still doesn't mean she's allowed within 30 feet of RD with any sort of tool (except mine :wink: ).
Deputization only comes after thorough research into ones knowledge of all things Chevrolet, ones ability to consume large quantities of non-girly alcoholic beverages, ones commitment to the cause of all things funny (such as farts, feeding dogs brussels sprouts, bad sex, farts, automotive mishaps, farts, hi-lights clips of great football hits and ... farts), ones commitment to ones buddies in times of need (RD not running, Jim out of beer / booze, no cheesesteak supplies in fridge, etc), ones ability to successfully fend off midgets whilst partaking of heinous carnage on Xbox 360, ones ability to successfully fend of intrusions by females into the sanctity of: Xbox 360 games, "working" on RD in the garage - or just being in the garage in general, a good laugh at a ridiculously long fart, etc, ones ability to aid in the renovation / construction process - amongst other technical qualifications. Only a limited few have actually passed these qualifications, and I can assure you that the only female to have passed these qualifications would be my wife only because she side-stepped the deputization process by providing "services" whilst I was: driving RD, working on RD, putting in a hardwood floor, playing Xbox 360, etc. (That still doesn't mean she's allowed within 30 feet of RD with any sort of tool (except mine :wink: ).
goldz28
12-03-2007, 10:11 AM
The shit you come up with just cracks me up man. Gotta love your sense of humor.
SG007
12-03-2007, 10:14 AM
Over my dead body. NO ONE touches RD but me and those deputized be me.
Deputization only comes after thorough research into ones knowledge of all things Chevrolet, ones ability to consume large quantities of non-girly alcoholic beverages, ones commitment to the cause of all things funny (such as farts, feeding dogs brussels sprouts, bad sex, farts, automotive mishaps, farts, hi-lights clips of great football hits and ... farts), ones commitment to ones buddies in times of need (RD not running, Jim out of beer / booze, no cheesesteak supplies in fridge, etc), ones ability to successfully fend off midgets whilst partaking of heinous carnage on Xbox 360, ones ability to successfully fend of intrusions by females into the sanctity of: Xbox 360 games, "working" on RD in the garage - or just being in the garage in general, a good laugh at a ridiculously long fart, etc, ones ability to aid in the renovation / construction process - amongst other technical qualifications. Only a limited few have actually passed these qualifications, and I can assure you that the only female to have passed these qualifications would be my wife only because she side-stepped the deputization process by providing "services" whilst I was: driving RD, working on RD, putting in a hardwood floor, playing Xbox 360, etc. (That still doesn't mean she's allowed within 30 feet of RD with any sort of tool (except mine :wink: ).
How long did it take you to write that. lol
Deputization only comes after thorough research into ones knowledge of all things Chevrolet, ones ability to consume large quantities of non-girly alcoholic beverages, ones commitment to the cause of all things funny (such as farts, feeding dogs brussels sprouts, bad sex, farts, automotive mishaps, farts, hi-lights clips of great football hits and ... farts), ones commitment to ones buddies in times of need (RD not running, Jim out of beer / booze, no cheesesteak supplies in fridge, etc), ones ability to successfully fend off midgets whilst partaking of heinous carnage on Xbox 360, ones ability to successfully fend of intrusions by females into the sanctity of: Xbox 360 games, "working" on RD in the garage - or just being in the garage in general, a good laugh at a ridiculously long fart, etc, ones ability to aid in the renovation / construction process - amongst other technical qualifications. Only a limited few have actually passed these qualifications, and I can assure you that the only female to have passed these qualifications would be my wife only because she side-stepped the deputization process by providing "services" whilst I was: driving RD, working on RD, putting in a hardwood floor, playing Xbox 360, etc. (That still doesn't mean she's allowed within 30 feet of RD with any sort of tool (except mine :wink: ).
How long did it take you to write that. lol
Earlsfat
12-03-2007, 01:28 PM
The shit you come up with just cracks me up man. Gotta love your sense of humor.
The funny part is I could actually see myself standing at a podium rattling that off to a bunch of people wanting to be deputized. Cowboy hat, cowboy boots, handle bar moustache, big old sunglasses, badge on lapel... the whole 9 yards.
How long did it take you to write that. lol
About 10 minutes. I actually keep a lot of mental lists and add to / edit them all the time.
You should see my "list of shit that you'll never see me do..." My wife HATES that list. Sumich is about 15 miles long...
Wife: "Honey would you ______ for me...."
Me: "You know that list... the one of shit you'll never see happen... you can add that one to the bottom."
The funny part is I could actually see myself standing at a podium rattling that off to a bunch of people wanting to be deputized. Cowboy hat, cowboy boots, handle bar moustache, big old sunglasses, badge on lapel... the whole 9 yards.
How long did it take you to write that. lol
About 10 minutes. I actually keep a lot of mental lists and add to / edit them all the time.
You should see my "list of shit that you'll never see me do..." My wife HATES that list. Sumich is about 15 miles long...
Wife: "Honey would you ______ for me...."
Me: "You know that list... the one of shit you'll never see happen... you can add that one to the bottom."
stepho
12-03-2007, 04:17 PM
Over my dead body. NO ONE touches RD but me and those deputized by me.
Deputization only comes after thorough research into ones knowledge of all things Chevrolet, ones ability to consume large quantities of non-girly alcoholic beverages, ones commitment to the cause of all things funny (such as farts, feeding dogs brussels sprouts, bad sex, farts, automotive mishaps, farts, hi-lights clips of great football hits and ... farts), ones commitment to ones buddies in times of need (RD not running, Jim out of beer / booze, no cheesesteak supplies in fridge, etc), ones ability to successfully fend off midgets whilst partaking of heinous carnage on Xbox 360, ones ability to successfully fend of intrusions by females into the sanctity of: Xbox 360 games, "working" on RD in the garage - or just being in the garage in general, a good laugh at a ridiculously long fart, etc, ones ability to aid in the renovation / construction process - amongst other technical qualifications. Only a limited few have actually passed these qualifications, and I can assure you that the only female to have passed these qualifications would be my wife only because she side-stepped the deputization process by providing "services" whilst I was: driving RD, working on RD, putting in a hardwood floor, playing Xbox 360, etc. (That still doesn't mean she's allowed within 30 feet of RD with any sort of tool (except mine :wink: ).
HAHAHA! Hilarious. Reminds me of Dr. Cox from Scrubs.
Deputization only comes after thorough research into ones knowledge of all things Chevrolet, ones ability to consume large quantities of non-girly alcoholic beverages, ones commitment to the cause of all things funny (such as farts, feeding dogs brussels sprouts, bad sex, farts, automotive mishaps, farts, hi-lights clips of great football hits and ... farts), ones commitment to ones buddies in times of need (RD not running, Jim out of beer / booze, no cheesesteak supplies in fridge, etc), ones ability to successfully fend off midgets whilst partaking of heinous carnage on Xbox 360, ones ability to successfully fend of intrusions by females into the sanctity of: Xbox 360 games, "working" on RD in the garage - or just being in the garage in general, a good laugh at a ridiculously long fart, etc, ones ability to aid in the renovation / construction process - amongst other technical qualifications. Only a limited few have actually passed these qualifications, and I can assure you that the only female to have passed these qualifications would be my wife only because she side-stepped the deputization process by providing "services" whilst I was: driving RD, working on RD, putting in a hardwood floor, playing Xbox 360, etc. (That still doesn't mean she's allowed within 30 feet of RD with any sort of tool (except mine :wink: ).
HAHAHA! Hilarious. Reminds me of Dr. Cox from Scrubs.
Blackcrow64
12-03-2007, 07:00 PM
Over my dead body. NO ONE touches RD but me and those deputized by me.
Deputization only comes after thorough research into ones knowledge of all things Chevrolet, ones ability to consume large quantities of non-girly alcoholic beverages, ones commitment to the cause of all things funny (such as farts, feeding dogs brussels sprouts, bad sex, farts, automotive mishaps, farts, hi-lights clips of great football hits and ... farts), ones commitment to ones buddies in times of need (RD not running, Jim out of beer / booze, no cheesesteak supplies in fridge, etc), ones ability to successfully fend off midgets whilst partaking of heinous carnage on Xbox 360, ones ability to successfully fend of intrusions by females into the sanctity of: Xbox 360 games, "working" on RD in the garage - or just being in the garage in general, a good laugh at a ridiculously long fart, etc, ones ability to aid in the renovation / construction process - amongst other technical qualifications. Only a limited few have actually passed these qualifications, and I can assure you that the only female to have passed these qualifications would be my wife only because she side-stepped the deputization process by providing "services" whilst I was: driving RD, working on RD, putting in a hardwood floor, playing Xbox 360, etc. (That still doesn't mean she's allowed within 30 feet of RD with any sort of tool (except mine :wink: ).
I got so lost reading that... What the hell is RD?
Deputization only comes after thorough research into ones knowledge of all things Chevrolet, ones ability to consume large quantities of non-girly alcoholic beverages, ones commitment to the cause of all things funny (such as farts, feeding dogs brussels sprouts, bad sex, farts, automotive mishaps, farts, hi-lights clips of great football hits and ... farts), ones commitment to ones buddies in times of need (RD not running, Jim out of beer / booze, no cheesesteak supplies in fridge, etc), ones ability to successfully fend off midgets whilst partaking of heinous carnage on Xbox 360, ones ability to successfully fend of intrusions by females into the sanctity of: Xbox 360 games, "working" on RD in the garage - or just being in the garage in general, a good laugh at a ridiculously long fart, etc, ones ability to aid in the renovation / construction process - amongst other technical qualifications. Only a limited few have actually passed these qualifications, and I can assure you that the only female to have passed these qualifications would be my wife only because she side-stepped the deputization process by providing "services" whilst I was: driving RD, working on RD, putting in a hardwood floor, playing Xbox 360, etc. (That still doesn't mean she's allowed within 30 feet of RD with any sort of tool (except mine :wink: ).
I got so lost reading that... What the hell is RD?
stepho
12-03-2007, 07:11 PM
I got so lost reading that... What the hell is RD?
Where have you been? RD is short for Red Death which Jim affectionately named his Camaro.
Where have you been? RD is short for Red Death which Jim affectionately named his Camaro.
Earlsfat
12-03-2007, 09:24 PM
I got so lost reading that... What the hell is RD?
:disappoin ** Immediately kicked to the back of the line for deputization **
No brussels sprouts, cheesesteaks, beers / booze or burnouts for you, buddy. You got a whole lot of catching up to do. :disappoin :runaround:
THIS is Red Death ** Because if you don't get outta my way you're gonna be part of my paint job. :grinyes:
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/1259/1141438dr4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
This bitch has been the largest pain in the ass ever nightmared by me... times 2.
:disappoin ** Immediately kicked to the back of the line for deputization **
No brussels sprouts, cheesesteaks, beers / booze or burnouts for you, buddy. You got a whole lot of catching up to do. :disappoin :runaround:
THIS is Red Death ** Because if you don't get outta my way you're gonna be part of my paint job. :grinyes:
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/1259/1141438dr4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
This bitch has been the largest pain in the ass ever nightmared by me... times 2.
Blackcrow64
12-04-2007, 05:58 AM
Holy squirrel fucking! :eek:
That thing is tits! :grinyes:
Sorry, I think I had heard it called Red Death before, I just wasn't thinking right.
That thing is tits! :grinyes:
Sorry, I think I had heard it called Red Death before, I just wasn't thinking right.
SG007
12-04-2007, 08:17 AM
Because if you don't get outta my way you're gonna be part of my paint job.
If it ever runs again.....:lol:
If it ever runs again.....:lol:
goldz28
12-04-2007, 08:20 AM
Ouch that has to hurt.
Earlsfat
12-04-2007, 08:47 AM
If it ever runs again.....:lol:
SG, :nono: ... Play nice...
I would have the time to finish it if it weren't for the dirty, rotten, no good IRS and the State of PA Department of Community and Economic Development and the PA Department of Revenue and the idiot governor... audits, audits, audits.
On a positive note, think I have wiring problem down to a bad alternator. But I also want a 770 Street Avenger (was thinking 870, but that'll make me even poorer, lol) and a couple other toys before I go ahead a sew it up.
Not sure if I just want to sideline it until April, or get it running just for peace of mind... but if I wait, it'll be done right, no half-assing to get it temporarily running.
EDIT: LMAO, you'll REALLY be a part of the paint job now... brakes aren't hooked up.
SG, :nono: ... Play nice...
I would have the time to finish it if it weren't for the dirty, rotten, no good IRS and the State of PA Department of Community and Economic Development and the PA Department of Revenue and the idiot governor... audits, audits, audits.
On a positive note, think I have wiring problem down to a bad alternator. But I also want a 770 Street Avenger (was thinking 870, but that'll make me even poorer, lol) and a couple other toys before I go ahead a sew it up.
Not sure if I just want to sideline it until April, or get it running just for peace of mind... but if I wait, it'll be done right, no half-assing to get it temporarily running.
EDIT: LMAO, you'll REALLY be a part of the paint job now... brakes aren't hooked up.
goldz28
12-04-2007, 10:11 AM
Just do it right
SG007
12-04-2007, 10:39 AM
SG, :nono: ... Play nice...
On a positive note, think I have wiring problem down to a bad alternator. But I also want a 770 Street Avenger (was thinking 870, but that'll make me even poorer, lol) and a couple other toys before I go ahead a sew it up.
what? :dunno: :smooch:
You know, I could come over and help with the alternator....:naughty:
On a positive note, think I have wiring problem down to a bad alternator. But I also want a 770 Street Avenger (was thinking 870, but that'll make me even poorer, lol) and a couple other toys before I go ahead a sew it up.
what? :dunno: :smooch:
You know, I could come over and help with the alternator....:naughty:
goldz28
12-04-2007, 10:44 AM
You two need to get a fuckin room
SG007
12-04-2007, 03:16 PM
hush goldie!
Blackcrow64
12-04-2007, 10:27 PM
If it ever runs again.....:lol:
It feels good to know I'm not the only one who hear's that joke a lot about his project car. lol
It feels good to know I'm not the only one who hear's that joke a lot about his project car. lol
wrightz28
12-05-2007, 11:05 AM
The funny part is I could actually see myself standing at a podium rattling that off to a bunch of people wanting to be deputized. Cowboy hat, cowboy boots, handle bar moustache, big old sunglasses, badge on lapel... the whole 9 yards.
I've gotta get my good ol wicker cowboy hat with the plastic star and my Hop-a-long Cassidy watch back. :grinno:
I've gotta get my good ol wicker cowboy hat with the plastic star and my Hop-a-long Cassidy watch back. :grinno:
wrightz28
12-06-2007, 09:26 AM
On a positive note, think I have wiring problem down to a bad alternator. .
This is one of those things that just picks and picks at the back of my mind, there were no issues with the alternator prior to dissasembly, right? SO, what has changed??? :screwy:
This is one of those things that just picks and picks at the back of my mind, there were no issues with the alternator prior to dissasembly, right? SO, what has changed??? :screwy:
Earlsfat
12-06-2007, 10:18 AM
This is one of those things that just picks and picks at the back of my mind, there were no issues with the alternator prior to dissasembly, right? SO, what has changed??? :screwy:
You know... I haven't got a friggin clue... Starter tested out ok... just about the only thing left is the alternator... right? I know the new harness worked fine, I know the MSD box works fine... I didn't drop the alt, or hammer it or anything..... I painted the upper and lower alt brackets but that would be the opposite of what's happening here....
YOu can take an alt to Autozone or whatever and have them test it right?
(Just thought of a good homemade alternator test... chuck the pulley spindle into a drill and put your tongue on the terminals... should work right? :lol: )
I'm just gonna put my starter back in, hook everything back up (except the alt) and see if I get a light show.
Have to wait until I get my heater out... too cold to work in may garage lately. Looks like your original predicition of 6 years my be right...
You know... I haven't got a friggin clue... Starter tested out ok... just about the only thing left is the alternator... right? I know the new harness worked fine, I know the MSD box works fine... I didn't drop the alt, or hammer it or anything..... I painted the upper and lower alt brackets but that would be the opposite of what's happening here....
YOu can take an alt to Autozone or whatever and have them test it right?
(Just thought of a good homemade alternator test... chuck the pulley spindle into a drill and put your tongue on the terminals... should work right? :lol: )
I'm just gonna put my starter back in, hook everything back up (except the alt) and see if I get a light show.
Have to wait until I get my heater out... too cold to work in may garage lately. Looks like your original predicition of 6 years my be right...
wrightz28
12-11-2007, 03:06 PM
I painted the upper and lower alt brackets but that would be the opposite of what's happening here....
...
This keeps twacking me in the back of the head, and I know it's been proven I'm not the most electrically accurate person some of the time, but I seem to recall that all grounding point must be clean and unpainted, and I would think this be especially true of case grounded items, ie- alternators and starters :dunno:
...
This keeps twacking me in the back of the head, and I know it's been proven I'm not the most electrically accurate person some of the time, but I seem to recall that all grounding point must be clean and unpainted, and I would think this be especially true of case grounded items, ie- alternators and starters :dunno:
Earlsfat
12-11-2007, 04:06 PM
A. Not a grounding point.... is it?
2. Bolt holes had to be drilled out - used larger diameter due to stripped holes - so the holes are clean and I honestly don't think that there's a no contact issue. Unless I'm misunderstanding something (which could very well be the case)... the large bolt that oes to the left side into the block and the small bolt on the right that anchors into the bracket should be clean (ie good contact).. the bottom I don't recall cleaning off, but it was powder coated prior to my painting it in the first place.
I may just go through and use a little (forget the name of the stuff) and clean the bolt holes / contact patches again. Whenever I feel like getting to it... getting depressed about this whole mess.
2. Bolt holes had to be drilled out - used larger diameter due to stripped holes - so the holes are clean and I honestly don't think that there's a no contact issue. Unless I'm misunderstanding something (which could very well be the case)... the large bolt that oes to the left side into the block and the small bolt on the right that anchors into the bracket should be clean (ie good contact).. the bottom I don't recall cleaning off, but it was powder coated prior to my painting it in the first place.
I may just go through and use a little (forget the name of the stuff) and clean the bolt holes / contact patches again. Whenever I feel like getting to it... getting depressed about this whole mess.
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