Sneaky nitrous

Hey guys, as many of you know, I am going for a "stock appearing" look for the Talon. Well, one thing I have always sorta been interested in was nitrous, probably due to my F&F ricer roots. Well, I have always believed that direct port is the way to go and if I wasnt putting limits on my project I would, but the direct port system isnt stock looking or easily disguised.

I have sorta updated my plans to include a built tranny, built head with 280s, an 18g or bastard 20g, and as much power as I can get. The 18g is rated to 400 hp and the bastard 20g is rated at something like 440, but is that possible on my "stock appearing" setup? Nopers. I think the 18g is going to be ideal, better compressor efficiency than the 16g, but the bastard 20g has a bit more lag than the standard 440hp turbo I think, plus I have heard bad things about the reliability of them. I dont have any explicit power or 1/4 mile ET ideas, I am just going to go for the best I possibly can. I think if I can get to 400 hp or mid 11 second ET's with out the nitrous I will just skip it, but if I cant get it to either/both of those, I think I might want to invest in it.

This wont happen for a long time, but if I get a big break it may come sooner rather than later. Plus I think it would be the extra kicker, if I pulled this off right the average non DSMer probably couldnt tell that my car is significantly modded, I think it would be the extra tits if I had some nitrous tucked in there too.

I was sorta thinking about a wet kit tucked in somewhere sneaky. If memory serves you put the wet nozzle like 6"-8" from the TB right? I was thinking I would put the nozzle under the pipe and do the best job I can hiding it. I will then have nitrous and fuel lines to hide, which would be done with the wire loombs (spelling?) which I plan to use quite a bit to cover/clean shit up. I wouldnt probably be nitrousing the shit out of it, but I figured I would start with a 35 shot, move up to a 50, and if I was feeling particularly bad ass, maybe bump it up to a 65 shot. Oh yeah, I would hide it the same way as I would hide my CO2 tank, in the "2 seater conversion" thing I am planning on (background on that is basically using the back panels from a Fiero or Del Sol or something fabbed behind the front seats to hide the harness bar and obviously the tanks).

So what do you guys think? Worth a shot? Any ideas for hiding the lines and what not? Is this even a good idea?

Cliff notes for Brian:
-Thinking of nitrous to push my car into the mid 11's or 400+ hp range (probably several years down the line)
-Want it to be incognito so direct port is out, and I dont like the idea of dry kits
-Is it a good idea? Any ideas for hiding the lines and such?

It would be really easy to hide a dry kit since there isnt much to it. I dont know how easy it would be to hide a wet kit since its got all that extra do do, but I'm sure you could do it.

We done a small dry shot on the civic hatch. We had the bottle mounted in a very visible spot, the braided line all too visible, and under the hood you could see the nozzle going into the intake tube and the solenoid mounted on the intake manifold (the crap under the hood wouldnt have been visible after we close the hood....but the car doesnt have a hood. Fucken ricers) . It would have been extremly easy to hide but being the big ricers we are we wanted it to be seen, lol.

All you have to do is:
-obviously hide the bottle somewhere which won't be too hard
-run the line under the car so its not visible
-have the line coming up into the engine bay from underneath so its not visble
-mount the nozzle like you said, under the tube
-hide the solenoid somewhere, like under the intake manifold
-hide the arming switch in the center console or under the dash
-And maybe a remote bottle opener so you dont have to reach into the back of the car to turn the bottle on, or so you dont have to get out of the car and go open the hatch to turn the bottle on, which would be quite obvious.

And there u go, Sneaky Gorilla's hidden spray system....yeah that name sucks.

vanilla g

Yeah, I know the dry shot would be easiest, but that would require me to tune it rich so that when nitrous is added it would be the right AFR, but I wont be running nitrous all the time, just when I see someone on the street I would want to embarass or someone I would need a little extra for. This is why I want to do the wet shot.

I figured I would get like a 15-20 lb bottle for the CO2 IC sprayer (since it would get used more) and like a 5-10 lb bottle for the nitrous. Both would be mounted under the new back peice either easily accessed via a fold down trap door so I can open them myself or they would have remote bottle openers. I thought I would run the line (both nitrous and CO2) either under the car in a protective metal tube or in the same tube through the center console and out the firewall. The CO2 would be disguised as a body harness and run through a black loom to the supra SMIC. I figured I would run the nitrous and fuel lines in the same fashion to the UICP and maybe hide the nozzle in a box or shield welded to the pipe. Maybe try to disguise it as a IAT sensor? Like you said, I would mount the solenoid either under the IM or in a box on the firewall. The arming switch will be mounted like various other switches I am going to have, either wire them to stock switches that wont be in use or maybe just have the switches on my custom dash part I am going to make, the inside of it isnt going to be as sneaky as the outside or engine bay. :)

One thing I should explain is my reasoning for going with the two separate systems for the IC sprayer and the nitrous. Being that I think I am going to rig the IC sprayer up to come on under WOT after a set RPM it is going to get a lot more use than the nitrous and being that CO2 can be filled in my home town and is far cheaper than nitrous I am going to split them. Besides, I think nitrous and CO2 will do the same job as an IC spray so why not go with the cheaper option?

EDIT: I should also say that I am probably going to go with the cheapest wet kit, probably a used Nitrous Express system. I should also mention its going to be done right with a bottle heater, purge valve, and all that. Hahahaha... I just got a great scenario in my head... muscle head, no Viper hears the fart can, sees no FMIC, and thinks he sees a stock turbo and pretty unassuming engine bay. Then we line up... he sees the laptop screen's light, uh oh some engine management. Then a quick couple plumes of nitrous from the purge valve. Shit. Then the stutterbox. Fuck. Then while he spins through first I hook and go, before he knows I am gone :p. Fuck now I am getting all riled up. But how pimp would that be? We have like 15-18 cock ass Viper owners that come to town for the car show ever year, I think in like 4 years when I get my project done I am going to have to take a trip back home and see whats up. :D

Never spray your intercooler while racing. It can lean you out like hell. People just use it to cool if off a little after a few runs so its not heatsoaked.

Ohhh, ok. I always assumed you did it while you were running to further cool the charge. Either way, I am going to need it with that 18g and all that boost :p. Thanks Silvr.

The leaning out only applies if you cool it with nitrous, and it's because the nitrous eventually finds it's way into the intake. This is also why some "intercooler sprayer" companies were able to claim 50 whp gains. ;) With the planned use of CO2, this is not an issue. With very good intercooling however, there is no need for this added bulk and complexity. There are a very limited number of cores that perform extremely well, and I've only tried one. It's expensive as hell, but it's worth it. Buschur uses it in the EVO "race" core, and now offers DSM versions as well. DSMs will struggle with it a little more because of the front end design, but on the EVO it can't be beat.

Dry shot on a turbo car is never a good idea IMO, except when running AEM, which can add the additional fuel with your already installed fuel injectors. Gotta love AEM. This type of setup has some very distinct advantages, and is how I will be running the RWD.

You can keep a direct port stealthy by tapping the nozzles in on the BOTTOM of the intake manifold runners. No way to see that shit in a DSM. Doesn't have to be on top like you're trying to show it off. ;)

I installed my nitrous setup in the EVO without any of it being visible. I ran it for months before anyone knew I had it, and I'm at the track every single week. Wet fogger was installed under the UICP between the battery and head; no way to see it. Solenoids were installed under the battery, so the lines from the solenoids to the nozzles were also hidden by default. The one line that could have been seen was the fuel feed line from the regulator to the solenoid, but some black wire loom handles that. The nitrous line comes up under the car to under the battery, can't be seen, but wire loom can help there too. The purge solenoid was also under the battery and just purged into the tranny or something, who cares. I'd tap it real quick, purging as little as possible. People must have heard it still, but since there is nothing to see, they probably assumed it was a car in the staging lanes. On the street you don't have this luxury, so I'd say don't bother to purge. Running a little rich for 1 second isn't going to hurt performance too much. The arming and purge switches were installed in the glovebox, couldn't be seen. The system was controlled by DSMlink, so there were no other switches or control boxes that could be found by a trained eye. The bottle is tougher to hide in a hatch, but was easy in a sedan obviously. When I had to open the trunk to take the sapre out and stuff, I just had an old coat over the bottle in the corner.

Good call Kevin! Direct port it is. :) If I cant get it cheap enough anyway, we'll see how it goes down the line.

Also, I wont have overly good intercooling which is why I am planning on the sprayer. I want to keep it stockish looking so I am going to go with a Supra SMIC and the sprayer to keep shit cool. Its also good that I can spray that while I'm running, defeinately pumped for this project to get done!

Oh noes. I think Thor's plans just got a fucking monkey wrench thrown into them. A big, 10 lb bottle, 4 nozzle monkey wrench. :D

I was just looking for a certain local DSM forum and found a local (acutally the guy I bought my Talon from) advertising his old NOS direct port nitrous system for sale... a VERY good price. And no, I will not tell you how much or provide a link, its mine you savages :p. Anyway, I am kinda broke, but I have money socked away and I think I might have to give myself a Christmas present, or hell that birthday present I never gave myself. It does need a new bottle to solenoid line, but shit, I can get it when I am actually ready to put it in. After all, I do need DSMlink, 1000cc injectors, a new clutch, and preferably that supra SMIC before I even think about fucking with nitrous.

So heres my long ass list of questions and Kevin, your infinite wisdom would be greatly appreciated :). First off, am I going to be able to run a 35 shot on this? I dont think I am going to want more than that, atleast not until I am for sure I am ready. I did just check around and it looks like I can go as low as 50, and I think I can handle that :uhoh:. Next question, is this going to be safe on my stock motor and headgasket? As I remember, as long as its tuned right and not a shit ton of nitrous, it shouldnt matter much right? I wouldnt push it past 50 until I have taken my setup to that next level, but I for sure dont want to blow a motor on this. Its just the abnormally high cylinder temps that would eat the rings, valves, and pistons right, so as long as I dont lean the bitch out I should be fine, right? Kevin, how often did you have to refill the tank and how big did you have? I wouldnt use this much, I figured a good few times to get it tuned decent, but other than that, just after I get comfortable at the track and MAYBE like twice on the street to embarrass a cocky Mustang or Camaro :D.

So yeah, thats my excitement for the night. Input appreciated ASAP, I might be making a bad decision on this very soon!

Typically the smallest shot you can run is 20 with a wet system, and you'll have 4 nozzles, so that's 80. You can only go so small on the fuel jet, and it needs to be small at EFI fuel pressures. ;) You may want to install one nozzle in a single fogger configuration to get used to the nitrous, then put a plug in it (it's just 1/16th or 1.8th NPT) and install the direct port parts.

Every 10 hp from nitrous is similar to another 1 lb/min of airflow from a turbo if AFR is tuned right. Aside from the potential need for reduced timing due to the faster burn rate of course. Cylinder pressure will be similar, so HGs and the like should fare the same.

Definitely run non-projected plugs. 7s if you have to, 8s if you can make them last.

I ran a 10 lb bottle in the EVO, and a 15 lb in the RWD. The 10 pounder was good for weeks worth of runs, maybe 20 or so, with a 30 shot. At the 75 shot level I think I may have been good for about 8 full drag runs, but I always filled up for each trip to the track, where I got an average of 5-6 runs.

Mmmm, ok. So I can just essentially plug the other 3 holes and run the direct port in wet kit fashion? That would be nice, like you said, to get used to the nitrous. So when this all happens, I shouldnt have to adjust AFRs in DSMlink should I? Unless I am mistaken, the direct port is like 4 wet kits so the fuel should come from with the nitrous through the nozzles right?

Man I am such a noob. :D

The direct port kit I found is complete except it needs a new bottle to solenoid line. Well there is a guy also down here selling his wet kit complete except he doesnt have the electronics (I think). I think I may buy both systems to make one complete, plus I will have two bottles which will be nice if I burn through it quick, and I can sell the remainder of the wet kit if theres anything left to sell.

EDIT: Ooop, just found out that its a NOSzle system... that means rather than the standard Y looking nozzle, the nozzles are built so that you plug the injector into them, then plug the injector/nozzle assembly into where the injector is supposed to go. I was a bit sad that my incognito thing would be blown, but after looking at the pictures, it shouldnt be too hard to cover up. Rather than mount the solenoids on top of the mani, I can mount them underneath to either the firewall or where the manifold "stay" or whatever the fuck that gay bracket is called used to be. I can then just turn the NOSzle sideways inwards so the lines just run around the side of the IM runner. Then to cover the NOSzle I will just make sure that part of the wiring harness gets in the way! I cant remember right now if it does or not, but an oversized loom and some zip ties should fix that right quick. I think this is the right way to do it too, no fucking around with tapping the IM and all that.

I did a little looking and Holley suggests that with the 75 shot direct port thing that you use a 22 jet for the n2o, a 14 for the fuel, and you run 2-4 degrees timing retard. Does this sound about right? I assume that the 22 jet is the same thing as the .022 right? It does say that its adjustable down to 50, but I cant find jetting specs for it. Oh well, looks like I am going to have to start with a rich tune to begin with, then pull a few more degrees of knock than is necessary, cross my fingers, and give 'er fuckin hell, right? I figure if richen up and take out some timing of the DSMlink tune to start with, then rather than take off 2-4 degrees when it engages, I will have DSMlink take off more like 8-10 or something just to be on the uber safe side for the first run just to make sue I dont fuck something up. I can then do trial runs adding fuel and timing to the base tune to get it back to where it should. Then provided I havent run into any huge problems, I should be able to start taking a degree or two off the nitrous activation control on DSMlink until I am safely not knocking. Is this the right idea?

If you run one fogger type setup first, you'll plug all 4 runner holes. If you plan to run the same AFR on nitrous as off it, just jet it accordingly. If you want it a little richer, same thing. Essentially the on nitrous AFR tunng is done with the jets. You can find jets smaller than 14, but when you see how small the orifice is you'll start losing sleep at night if you start thinking about what happens if it gets block with a single grain of dust or something. ;)

I would back the timing down while you tune AFR like you mention, then once AFR is back in get within about 4 degrees of what you would normally run. Then feed it in tuning as you normally would. Tunng for knock is risky with nitrous perhaps, if possible get on a dyno and watch torque increase per degree added. It may fall off before it starts to knock. In my testing I found that the motor took just abut the same timing as it did without nitrous. a 75 shot is pretty small in the grand scheme of things.

I've never seen one of those injector piggy back type systems used on DSMs. What do you use to space out the fuel rail? Also sounds like an invitation for boost leaks. Not sure I like the idea, but I've hardly seen one, never mind used one.

The leaning out only applies if you cool it with nitrous, and it's because the nitrous eventually finds it's way into the intake. This is also why some "intercooler sprayer" companies were able to claim 50 whp gains. ;) With the planned use of CO2, this is not an issue. With very good

This might sound stupid, but if you spray the intercooler with CO2....What if the CO2 finds its way into the intake? Won't that kill power?

Not necessarly, there is already plenty co2 in the ambient air. I think its different on the dyno where the air isnt really circulating much, I think spraying the SMIC with air flowing over it the co2 wont have a shot in hell flowing up to the filter :). This would be different, however, with a FMIC as that would have a better shot at flowing up to the filter.

Spacing out the fuel rail is just going to take some enginuity. I figured I would use washers possibly, otherwise I have a spare set of those plastic deals, I can just hack one set down to the right height. So a 75 shot isnt going to blow my doors off eh? I am honestly scared as hell for this, but ready. Now the bigger turbo isnt such a necessity either, and maybe I can make a run at your 11th place spot for a 16g on dsmtimes.org Kevin :p.

I did talk to the guy today, it does come with a purge valve as well. This is actually going to be a bad call on my part, but the way I see it is if I finish out the kit I could sell it complete for the same as what I've got in it or a little extra.

Also, thanks for the suggestion on the nitrous, I think I will get it about good and take it in for the fine tuning. I think a 1 hour dyno session to get a few extra would be worth it.

I think the notion that CO2 will have less of an effect on ambient air that is 80% inert than nitrous on ambient are that is 20% oxygen is valid.

I had no idea that I had such a decent spot on the 16g list, that's cool. :)