ESi TSi chip swap?

ok, so i got this 1995 Eagle Talon ESi that I was thinking about adding a turbo to. Here's my question (and problem)... I'm a soldier currently stationed in Germany, the good thing about that is I've got the only Talon in the area, the bad thing is I'ts impossible to find someone who can tune them. So my question is... if I add a turbo to my ESi can I just swap out the chip with a TSi? is it even neccessary?

You cant change out the ECU with a turbo one. How much power do you want? Depending on the power levels you want you may not have to tune it at all. If you just want to run like 7-8psi it wont need to be tuned, just run a 12:1 FMU. It you want to build the bottom end and upgrade the fuel system you will need to have to tune it somewhat.

eventually I'll add new pistons rods cams and cam gears but for now the rest of the engine probably won't be upgraded until the interior work is done.
So 8psi should be fine, is there anything else I should slap on real quick to make sure my engine will be ok?

I'm assuming you already have an upgraded exhaust? If not, do that before you turbo it, and if you don't want to do a complete exhaust, you could always just go with a GS-T axle-back for a bit more flow. Also, make sure you do a COMPLETE tune-up before doing any type of big modifications (like a turbo), your motor will thank you.

should I replace the head gasket? I also forgot to mention the turbo I want to put on now, I would like to be able to press a good 20 - 25 ibs of pressure out of and just regulate it to 5-8ibs until I upgrade the rest of the engine. would a T3 be ok, and does it need to be intercooled for just 8ibs of boost?

8psi on a T3 is probably more than your stock internals are going to hold for very long, now if it was 8psi on a T-25 or 14b it wouldn't be so bad, but even at the same pressure, they flow very different numbers. Also, with running anything other than a T-25, you'll need some bigger injectors, upgraded fuel pump, AFPR, and a tuning device. A front mount intercooler wouldn't be needed, but a stock turbo eclipse/talon side mount intercooler you'll need. As for the HG, you shouldn't need to replace it unless it's bad.

I have a feeling you need to do a shitload more reading before even thinking about attempting this upgrade. By the questions you just asked, I'm assuming you don't know very much about modding dsms, or any type of forced induction for that matter. Not trying to be an ass, but you need to learn and understand exactly what you're doing before you go throwing thousands of $$ at it and just end up breaking more shit.

lol, actually you hit the nail on the head. This is my first project car, I've never really modded out a car before and wanted to give it a shot. In fact I'm an F-body guy, so the tuner thing is all foreign to me. I've been in the ARMY so as you can imagine I don't get out much. and from the answeres I've been getting to my questions I think I need to read into all of this alot more too. lol.

ok, new question, (and I'm sure this has all been brought up before somewhere so even just a link to the thread would be helpfull.) Can you give me a complete list of everything I would need to mod, tune, and/or replace to get this car upto a good 400whp? any info (or links to info) you could provide me with would be helpfull and greatly appreciated. I don't need costs of the items, and the work, my buddies and I can do ourselves. (were all aircraft mechanics and most of us were car mechanics at one time.) And whether or not it would be worth it or required to keep the 420a or to swap it.

A lot of people who run the T3 turbos like the 60 Trim. I would personaly stick with a 16g or something. As far as the set up you will need:
Manifold, Downpipe, Turbo, External Wastegate(perferably), FMIC, Intercooler pipe, BOV, Vortech SFMU, 310cc injectors aren't a bad idea, Walbro 255 fuel pump, Gauges-boost-EGT-a/f

Im sure I have left some things out but this is most of it. This setup will support you up to about 13psi with fuel which in plenty on a stock motor. This is pretty much what I run right now and it works great, very little tuning to do.

With what you are looking at trying to get (400whp) you might want to consider just getting a factory turbo car. That will save you a good bit on money. 420a motors usually cant handle much boost without extensive work whereas a stock turbo 4G63 can easily do 12-15psi or beyond with the right stuff.

In all honesty dude, if you are looking for a 400 whp car, you are barking up the wrong tree. To get 400 whp out of your car, you are looking at a very lengthy and costly build of the 420a or a very lengthy and costly swap/build of a 4g63. Not to mention that should you get the 400 fwhp, you will have a bastard of a time getting it to hook.

Here is a pretty good list of what you will need, though there may be a thing or two needed that is not on the list as I am not 100% familiar with the 420a car/motor.
-Built bottom end with forged pistons and rods and I think an aftermarket crank
-Built top end to support the cams necessary to make that kind of power. You'll need the cams (272's at least), some more aggressive springs and retainers atleast, others will argue for a port and polish, valve job, etc.
-Built tranny and probably some aftermarket axles. My 420a Neon buddy snapped axles like toothpicks on his 400+ hp Neon.
-Decent clutch. Along the lines of a ACT 2600, Zoom/Fidanza Stage 3, etc. A lightweight flywheel isnt necessary but may be a good idea.
-Nice fuel system. You'll need a Walbro 255 pump, an aftermarket fuel pressure regulator, and some bigger injectors (I think you'll need 750cc+ for 400 hp on gas, not entirely sure though) and I am pretty sure you will need aftermarket fuel lines as well.
-A good FMIC
-The turbo system. This includes turbo (a decent 50 trim should do you fine for 400 whp), exhaust manifold, wastegate (if not on the turbo), 3" exhaust, intercooler pipes, BOV, all necessary oil/water lines, probably other stuff I am too tired to remember at the moment.
-SMIM and bigger TB. I would assume the stock intake manifold and throttle body would be completely insufficient to make 400 hp so it would need to be replaced with a sheet metal one.
-Megasquirt. Probably the best option for tuning for the 420a. I doubt the SAFC would work for ya, I dont think it can support big enough injectors for 400 hp and without ignition timing 400 whp is pretty impossible I think.
-Good tires to get all that to hook.

I would start off with small goals. Try for 200 whp first. When you can get that, try for like 300whp, then 350, then go for 400. Just know that this is going to be a long, expensive road for any DSM, but way more so for the 420a.

Side note, you're an aircraft mechanic huh? The guy that lives across the hall from me is an aircraft mechanic as well and is currently stationed in Germany, at Rammstein I'm pretty sure. I cant remember the names of the systems he maintains, but they are the antimissile ones that drop shit to distract the missiles.

An Aircraft mechanic in the Army? I'm guessing helicopters? Do they even have planes? Just wondering. Yeah my goal is 400 awhp in the gsx, the cost hasn't been that bad so far, but now that I had to redo my fuel system for the 2nd time, upgrade to an eprom, and of course the bigger turbo, it's starting to add up.

yah I'm a 15-R (Appache attack helicopter mechanic/crew-cheif) and I've been to rammstein... those air-force guys really live it up! but i'm stationed in Illesheim (small and shitty base)

..anywho I realize it will be expensive and take some time, but trust me... with the team I put together I'm sure it's not going to take that much time at all. We did a complete Appache transmission swap (normally a one week task for a full team working 24/7) in 4 hours w/ paperwork. we even set an ARMY record. so I have confidence we can pull it off. the problem is we're all new to tuner cars, we're all F-body and fox body guys, and most of us have produced or worked on actuall car teams that have produced seriouse power. I worked with All Mustang Performance, (AMPperformance.com) before I joined the army.

yah I'm a 15-R (Appache attack helicopter mechanic/crew-cheif) and I've been to rammstein... those air-force guys really live it up! but i'm stationed in Illesheim (small and shitty base)

..anywho I realize it will be expensive and take some time, but trust me... with the team I put together I'm sure it's not going to take that much time at all. We did a complete Appache transmission swap (normally a one week task for a full team working 24/7) in 4 hours w/ paperwork. we even set an ARMY record. so I have confidence we can pull it off. the problem is we're all new to tuner cars, we're all F-body and fox body guys, and most of us have produced or worked on actuall car teams that have produced seriouse power. I worked with All Mustang Performance, (AMPperformance.com) before I joined the army.

Man I think me and you are two peas in a pod! I was a Marine, who worked on helicopters (CH53E's the big fast ones) and also before I came to DSM's I was an Fox Body guy as well. (I have also worked on a number of F-bodies as well) I have owned several mustangs from a 91,95 to an 03 cobra.

I don't doubt you guys have the technical know how. But like the others said, this is going to be a costly rebuild for those numbers. Very costly.


Side note, you're an aircraft mechanic huh? The guy that lives across the hall from me is an aircraft mechanic as well and is currently stationed in Germany, at Rammstein I'm pretty sure. I cant remember the names of the systems he maintains, but they are the antimissile ones that drop shit to distract the missiles.

The countermeasure systems?

oh yah! the 03 cobra was a damned good car! anywho... the money's coming from a car I just recently sold in the sates, so I've got atleast 10k to start off with right now. the rest is my paychecks spending money (about 1k a month). The reason I'm so set on putting so much into a Talon is because these germans have never seen or heard of them before and they absolutely love tuners, cause they really can't get that kind of stuff here without paying up the wazoo for shipping. (luckilly the APO helps with my shipping costs.) a talon in a German car show is almost guarenteed to place!

I actually sighned up at that carsponsorships.com thing. it worked but I think those sponsors are sponsors everybody gets after sighning up with them. And the'yre really not all that great. usually just partiall sponsorships that give you 30-40% discounts on certain products. but they do autimatically quallify you for full sponsorships if you win a trophy at a local car show. So as much as I hate to say it, I'm probably going to go with the looks right now so I can place in a car show, get my money back, and put that money into the engine. ( I just hate having a tricked out ricer with no balls!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor06
Side note, you're an aircraft mechanic huh? The guy that lives across the hall from me is an aircraft mechanic as well and is currently stationed in Germany, at Rammstein I'm pretty sure. I cant remember the names of the systems he maintains, but they are the antimissile ones that drop shit to distract the missiles.


Quote:
Originally Posted by defiancy (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=339649)
The countermeasure systems?

...Chaffs

I wouldnt get too excited about carsponsorships.com... waste of time IMO.

If you've got 10+ g's to throw at it, you're good with tools, and you've got a lot of spare time I would almost suggest you try an Evo swap. The 4g63 is a way better power plant and if you get an Evo IV and up motor and tranny, the engine/tranny orientation will be right so the mounts will be atleast semi close. Then throw in the GSX rear end and you'll be all set. I guess thats what I would do atleast, I think all the Evo motors were atleast as stout as the 6 bolt motors so I dont think you'll have to worry about a bottom end rebuild (though you'd want more aggressive cams) or a tranny rebuild atleast for a while I dont think. Then you'd also have AWD so you wont have to try so hard to get it to hook. Just my two cents.

I agree with you on the carsponsorships.com thing. it seemed like it was just some deal that the site made with those companies, rather than them actually having an agent try to get sponsors for your car. as far as the evo swap I was actually thinking the same thing. Do you really think they'll match up ok enough for me not to have to do alot of fabrication? I don't think welding would be a big deal, one of the guys I know is a master tig and wig welder.

Well, I'd be lieing to you if I said I think it would be easy, but it sure as hell would be easier to put the Evo 4g63 in than the DSM 4g63. If you've got a buddy that is good at welding and you guys are good with cars I dont think theres any reason you cant get it done. Maybe then you could use DSMlink too, might want to check into that. Plus I'm pretty sure you should be able to get a hold of a Evo 4g63 somewhere over there for cheaper than a built 420a and tranny. You should be able to find a writeup on 420a to Evo 4g63 swaps someplace, check www.dsmtuners.com (http://www.dsmtuners.com). In doing this you'd also have something pretty rare and unique, no doubt the way I would go.

Wow I can't believe I have missed this thread. The title was just so ridiculous that I didn't bother to look (sorry) :) I gotta say its pretty awesome what you're doing. Those germans and there VW's lol I hated that commercial where they launched a riced out eclipse but i guess that is what ricers deserve.
But yah I can tell you have lofty goals and also the mechanical know how so now you just need to get the right parts and do it RIGHT the first time preferably.
I gotta agree with thor that the evo swap is the right way to go for 400hp. I mean right after you drop that motor in you are already over half way there. Compared to being like 110 whp in your esi.
Not to mention more cost efficient for not having to build the bottom end. You will still need a ton of parts and evo trans, diff etc. And then the added horsepower you will need 60-1 or so some 1000cc injectors to be on the safe side definitely a form of engine management. the evo FMIC would do pretty well. There is a 420a swap here somewhere im gonna look for it.

Wow I can't believe I have missed this thread. The title was just so ridiculous that I didn't bother to look (sorry) :)
lol, yah I kicked myself after I asked it.

can someone please post a direct link for a walkthrough of a 420a to evo 4g63 swap.

the evo and eagle tsi blocks are the same right? they just have different components?

There are no direct walkthrough swaps that have been done, or at least documented. The 420a to 4g63 swap is a very expensive and long project to be doing. We have a member on here that is doing an Evo 8 swap I believe, but he's maybe halfway done, but the Evo 8 swap is somewhat easier because the motors sit the same way and the mounts line up closely versus a 4g63, which sits opposite of the 420a.

found this is sorta what you are looking for hope it helps.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37019

Garrett, he is talking about an Evo 4g63 swap.

Garrett, he is talking about an Evo 4g63 swap.

What the fuck is the difference between that and a regular 4g63 swap? Besides a few little things, it's still a major model to model conversion as far as I'm conerned and will run just as much, if not more because the Evo motor will cost more.

Yes, but the Evo motor is on the passenger's side as with the 420a which would make it substantially easier compared to the DSM 4g63 swap. Plus he is in Europe so getting an older Evo (gen 4+) motor, tranny, harness, ECU, and all the other stuff shouldnt be too much harder than us getting a decent DSM 4g63 and related stuff. Granted I bet there is a lot more DSM stuff here than Evo stuff over there, but I still dont think it'll be too hard to find. Plus for him being in Europe it should be cheaper to do an Evo swap than a DSM swap since there arent hardly any DSMs over there.

I thought he was talking about an earlier 4g63 swap, and that's why I commented about the Evo 8 swap, it's the same way as the 420a, motor on passenger side, tranny on drivers side. And there's actually someone that has a partially documented swap on that.

Robby, read here.
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=739086

well first i got to get the damn thing runnin. I jurry rigged the ignition coil together and it still didn't help, so I'm on my way to go pick up some spark plugs and wires, which all looked and still look good to me.

Ok, I guess I will have to order spark plugs and wires too! since none of the shops around here have them! :banghead:

I'm writing up the details on this problem in a different thread, here: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=5010197#post5010197

on a side note... does anyone know if a eclipse door will fit on my talon? trunk hatch?

on a side note... does anyone know if a eclipse door will fit on my talon? trunk hatch?

Yes it will. Same body except for slight bumper differences.

Yes. It might not look 100% right with the moldings though, but yes it will fit. Even 1g and 2g doors are compatible... how do I know? My buddy's old 1991 Talon (which turned into my parts car and is now scrap metal) came with a fucking 2g Eclipse door. Some people are retarded....

sweet, thanks.

also, do you know of a glass alternative that is street legal?

sweet, thanks.

also, do you know of a glass alternative that is street legal?

Just the plastic stuff that race cars use. Not sure how street legal it is. Scratches easily too. Wouldn't recommend it in a non-full-race application.

That stuff is not street legal, unless they make some special to fit the requirments. Its not in the us anyways.

Definately better ways to save 100 lbs.... they are pretty expensive for how little they reduce and like Dave said, it should only be used in a track car only situation.