Starter is dying

So every so often I have to keep clicking the starter (3-20 times) before the selinoid kicks in and the starter actually starts the car.

It is the 3.1 in a 94 GP. Are there any surprises that go along with changing the starter? I compared the repair manual to what I see, and am not necessairly finding what the book says I should, but it is starting to get dark and it is awful greesy and dirty down there.

Am I in for any surprises once I get into this thing? Is that back bolt as hard to get at as it seems?

Thanks
Andy

Shouldn't be any surprises but make sure you use the same shims on the starter when you install the new one. Also make sure you remove the battery terminal before you start. Also you can save some money because the starter itself is probably still good just the solenoid is going bad based on your description.

GTP DAD,
I'm having the same problem as andy above. Same year and engine.
It takes anywhere from three to ten times before the engine starts. When I try to start the car the engine doesn't keep cranking. It will crank once then stop.
You hear like a winding down noise. Have to shut the key off and try it again.
It will eventually start, (knock on wood). Once it starts, it runs fine. engine idles
real smooth. Does this also like the starter to you? I made sure all my connections where clean and tight. I got to hang onto this car another six months. I just wanted to get some advice before I went and bought one.
BTW, do you think this is a sympton of a bad solenoid? IF so can you buy that part seperate and put it on the starter? Thanks for any advice.

bogart,

If you take the starter off and take it into an advance or autozone they will check it for free.

If the selinoid is bad... it seemed to me a better deal to spend the extra $30 and get a whole new starter with lifetime warranty... especially with wierd noises comming from it. Also as far as I can tell you need to take the starter off to change the selinoid anyway.

It is real easy to change. A couple plastic shields, two long bolts from under, couple wires, and it slides out the bottom of the car.

The starter all together cost me about $85. I also went through and wired-bruched all the main power connections... NO more problems.

Hoped that helped.

Andy,
Thanks for the quick response! Your right, autozone has a starter with lifetime warrenty for about $85. They also one for $65 with a one year warrenty. I'm hoping to get another 6 months out of this car then junk it.
The power windows don't work, ac compressor is shot, fender is damaged, needs new tires, plugs wires etc. I just want to put the least amount of money into this vehicle as I can. I wonder how different the two starters are? Just the warrenty?
My car is acting the same as what you described and I'm pretty sure its the starter also. Also, appearently its an intermittant problem thats just getting worse. A question. Is that test that autozone does on the starter pretty reliable? I mean will it catch a problem that is intermittant? Money is real tiht right now and it would hurt to change it and come to find out it was something
else.(like it does a lot of times). Like you said, if you have to pull the starter to put on a new solenoid you might as well get another one.
As a side note, I wonder if junk yards sells starters? If the autozone testing procedure is good, you might be able to pick one up at a junk yard, say for $20-$25, then take it to AZ to get it tested. I think the junkyards around here will give you three days to bring something back.(I got a AZ and
two junkyards within 5 min. from my house). Just curious as to what you think. Thanks again for your feedback and you and everyone else on this board have a merry Xmas!

Get yourself a yard part. Here in Cali most yards give you 60-90 days warranty on their parts.

all All advance seemed to do to mine was hit it with power. They bolt it down to a machine with a couple guages and hit it with power a couple times. Mine turned the first time then just clicked away... confirming that at least my selinoid was on its way out. I probably could have gotten some more time out of the motor, but for me it was worth it to go all new.

I can not tell you how to spend your money, or exactly what else could be wrong with your car. It sounds like tell tale signs of selinoid/starter failure.... but I can not be sure. In my opinion in your situations the junk yard sounds like your best option here. Just get one and see if it makes it better for you... if not bring it back.

I think I had my old one out in about 20 min, then after the run to the part store the new one slid back in in about 15min. Just be REAL careful about ALL your connections. Make sure they are clean and tight.

good luck to you

Think I will try to find one at the bone yard first, then take to AZ to have tested. Got to wait for the weather to clear up a little. Will report back after I do it. Thanks again for the advice!

andy,
Took the starter out and took to autozone. They tested it twice. It tested ok. I thought for sure that was the problem. Just to clarify, when I try to start it, it will crank just once and winds down. I have to shut the key off then try to stsrt it again. It doesn't sit there and just crank. I checked all the connections and cleaned all the terminals and checked the wires and didn't see nothing suspcious. After about six or so times it will start and seem to run fine. I was getting 12+ volts at the starter at the big terminal. I then put my volt meter between the small terminal at the starter and the ground terminal at the battery. I had my kid start it while I watched the meter.
When he was trying to start it (and it wouldn't start) I was reading like 6,8,9 volts. When it finally did start, the most I ever read on the meter was about 10 and half volts. I thought this isn't right. Shouldn't I be getting 12 volts down at that small terminal when trying to start it? I followed that wire (purple) back to a connector. took apart it was clean. From there it went into a bundle to I believe the key ignition switch. I'm stumped now. Maybe a ignition switch going bad? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!
Merry Christmas all!

Actually I would have to think you have a problem with the main battery cable coming from the battery. It is probably internally corroded and causing a tremendous voltage drop when you hit the key. If the ignition were bad the car wouldn't attempt to start. When you try several times you overcome the resistance and the power gets to the starter and it will eventually start. Unfortunately the main cable on these cars is expensive. You may want to look for one out of a junker or just live with it.

Hi GTPDad,
Merry christmas. I don't remember if I had my volt meter on the large terminal of the starter and was watching it As my kid was trying to start it.
I just was watching the meter hooked up to the small terminal on the starter.
thats when I didn't get more than 10 1/2 volts. I can try running a wire directly from the large termianl of the starter to the battery and see if that helps. I measured 12 volts at the large terminal. But when I try to start it, that voltage could be dropping and I'm not aware of it. Will report back what I find. Thanks!

Followup. Car basically doing the same thing. Took alternator in. Checked out ok. Took battery in. Guy said looked suspicious. Had one reading down to 7 volts one time. Bought new battery .That wasn't it. Kid claims its better than it was. I doubt it. It shouldn't be doing that. Will change the main cable going from the batt to the starter this weekend. Will see what that does.
Any other stray thoughts would be welcomed. Will post followup. Thanks all!

bogart, that to me sounds like a bad bendix, not siloniod or cable problem. that is from your discription of the winding down discription.
Hit the key and you hear a whine up, and when you let off the key it whines down. In most cases a basic starter bench test wont catch that.
this has nothing to do with load on the stater eather. If you had low voltage the starter would hit(enguage) and do nothing but sit there. you would hear a click or hard thunk sound and then nothing.
just like a half dead batt. would do.
In this case I would reomve the starter, dissassembel, while you have it down I would install brushes and a bendix.
the voltage drop you are seeing is from the load draw on the starter.
one question:
when the starter enguages will it crank just fine and start the car? Is there a slow crank ordraging sound or does it crank the engine just fine?

bogart, that to me sounds like a bad bendix, not siloniod or cable problem. that is from your discription of the winding down discription.
Hit the key and you hear a whine up, and when you let off the key it whines down. In most cases a basic starter bench test wont catch that.
this has nothing to do with load on the stater eather. If you had low voltage the starter would hit(enguage) and do nothing but sit there. you would hear a click or hard thunk sound and then nothing.
just like a half dead batt. would do.
In this case I would reomve the starter, dissassembel, while you have it down I would install brushes and a bendix.
the voltage drop you are seeing is from the load draw on the starter.
one question:
when the starter enguages will it crank just fine and start the car? Is there a slow crank ordraging sound or does it crank the engine just fine?

Hey GAS,
Thanks for the help. Yes, once it starts it fires right up and seems to run fine. Yes, you try to start it and it will make that short wine up then wine down noise then nothing. you have to turn the key back to off then try it again. Sometimes this might take 10 times doing the same thing. I had auto zone do the bench test on it and they said it was ok. Like you said however, a benchtest might not catch this. I tend to think its the starter but you know how that goes. Can I buy brushes and a bendix for this starter and rebuilt it myself? I already checked at a junk yard and I can get a starter for $35 with a 30 day warrenty. I'm just tryng to get another 6 to 12 months out of this car. What do you think?

Hey GAS,
Thanks for the help. Yes, once it starts it fires right up and seems to run fine. Yes, you try to start it and it will make that short wine up then wine down noise then nothing. you have to turn the key back to off then try it again. Sometimes this might take 10 times doing the same thing. I had auto zone do the bench test on it and they said it was ok. Like you said however, a benchtest might not catch this. I tend to think its the starter but you know how that goes. Can I buy brushes and a bendix for this starter and rebuilt it myself? I already checked at a junk yard and I can get a starter for $35 with a 30 day warrenty. I'm just tryng to get another 6 to 12 months out of this car. What do you think?

I'd go with replacing the starter and get it over with.

I'd go with replacing the starter and get it over with.

That is what I'm going to do. Will report back how I made out. Thanks!

As Wally stated, just replace the starter. Your symptoms could be a starter drive or solenoid, replace the whole unit and be done with it.

Will do :)

Well I put on another starter and that was the problem. Autozone wanted
$75 for one. I just got one at the boneyard for $35 - 30 day guarentee. Most of you guys kept saying to chnage the starter out and be done with it. I guess I had a bout of swapitis. You know, fear of changing out parts until you hit the right one. If you have a newer vehicle that you plan on keeping a while its not as painful although it can still hurt in the pocketbook. This GP my kid is driving is falling apart and I'm just trying to keep on the road so he can get to work and back. When we save up some money we will get another car for him so my headaches can continue. Thanks again guys for all the help:)

Well I put on another starter and that was the problem. Autozone wanted
$75 for one. I just got one at the boneyard for $35 - 30 day guarentee. Most of you guys kept saying to chnage the starter out and be done with it. I guess I had a bout of swapitis. You know, fear of changing out parts until you hit the right one. If you have a newer vehicle that you plan on keeping a while its not as painful although it can still hurt in the pocketbook. This GP my kid is driving is falling apart and I'm just trying to keep on the road so he can get to work and back. When we save up some money we will get another car for him so my headaches can continue. Thanks again guys for all the help:)

If you keep the repairs under $100 a month, you are probably ahead of the game. With care these things will last a long time.

wlkjr, 320,000 miles!! Wow, Mines gonna make that too someday. I love my car WAY too much to ever want to sell it. Plus I like the 97-03 body style WAY better than the 04-up. No offence anyone.

wlkjr, 320,000 miles!! Wow, Mines gonna make that too someday. I love my car WAY too much to ever want to sell it. Plus I like the 97-03 body style WAY better than the 04-up. No offence anyone.

That was a year ago. Today it has 336,000 with the help of Bob and Rich and some other forum members.

Well, I cant believe I have to post here again. It has been about a month and a half and the car has been starting fine, up until about last week. Now I am back to clicking until it starts. It is a brand new starter so I can't imagine that being my issue, but if it comes down to it.... I guess that is why I got the lifetime warrante.

Last week, I started to notice that after sitting a couple days (in cold outside) the first start would take a couple clicks. Today delivering pizzas in the pouring rain during the super bowl <it sucked, I am a huge football fan> The car was as bad as ever. Almost every time I got in and started it, it had to click a couple times before starting.

I dont have a volt meter to really test the wires, but due to it giving more problems in the rain than ever before, I am kind of thinging I have bad power wires.

Where do I start to figure this out. I know I read through the postings here with Bogart, and someone mentioned that the main battery wires tend to rot from the inside out. Is it worth it/possible to change the terminal wires? What about the few other wires all tied into the starter? What do they do? Could they be the problem? Could I be looking at relay issues? Could I just have gotten another bad starter?

I appreciate any help. I am getting lost here. I am really tired of dealing with all the issues on this thing and constantly putting money into it. Piece by piece this thing is going to be a new car. I've just never had good luck with a GM. (besides this I am also developing a trans issue, and have already fixed a long list of problems and neglected maintinance) If that little 3.1 didnt run so good I would have given up a long time a go.

Thanks
Andy

Hello andy,
Getting tortured again I see. I know the feeling. I'll make a few suggestions that I have gathered on this forum that hopefully will help. First off, the clicking noise you are hearing got to be coming from the starter no doubt. It sounds like the solenoid is engaging but the starter is not getting enough voltage from the battery to turn over. It appears at this point it is either the battery or the cable from the battery to the starter. If when this happens, if you could have someone move around the cable from the batt to the starter and see if it starts. I'll state the obvious, make sure your battery is good, (autozone free load test), alternator is charging properly and make sure nothing is draining your batt when you shut the car off. Even though the starter is new, it could still have a problem with it. If that batt cable looks even a little corroded, maybe thats the place to start. You might just have to use the process of elimination. Intermittant problems on cars can be a bear to figure out. There are alot smarter guys on this board that maybe can give you better direction. This is all I could come up with at this time. Let us know how you made out.Good luck!

Thanks for the reply... I had an Advance check the battery and altenator. Both checked out fine. AS FAR AS I KNOW there is no drain on the battery when the car is off (because it always does eventually start).

When it does click I agree that it sounds like the selinoid is hitting, just the starter not turning.

I will check that main power wire/replace it if possible when I get a decent day. Right now it is 35 degrees and pouring.

The fact that you put a boneyard starter in it is where I'd start.

The fact that you put a boneyard starter in it is where I'd start.

Rich, I believe andy said it was a brand new starter :)