1997 LeSabre Trans. Lockout Question

Did a quick search and couldn't find anything on this: I have a '97 LeSabre that is "fishbiting" from time to time. It's not all the time and it doesn't always do it on an incline.

I seem to remember that this is caused by a faulty solenoid, but can only be fixed quickly on some trannys. On others, the trans needs to come out. What's the best way to determine if I have a trans that can be fixed easily? I"m not sure if I have a 60 or 65 tranny. . .no markings on the pan, but the tag says "AS" on it. Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

jeff

According to my documentation you have the 4T60E not the 4T65E. The GM RPO code is M13 so check the SPID label located on either the doors, trunk lid or spare tire cover.

It could be a bonfide problem with the autotransaxle related to the TCC or even a secondary ignition problem like spark plugs, ignition wires, or coil packs. You can get it scanned with a trans capable scanner to see if any tranny related DTCs are stored.

I have 2 '97 Lesabres and one of them has had the "fishbite" for a very long time. It now has just under 185,0000 miles on it. It does not do it during the winter months. It only does it during the warmer months when cruising, tcc locked in (when the tranny is hot). From what I understand, the valve body in the tranny has rubber seals that expand and allow fluid to pass by. This results in slip when the tcc solenoid is locked in. I had a transmission shop look at it at about 80,000 miles. They said if they took it apart, they would want to rebuild it. If not, I could just drive it until it goes out completely and then rebuild it.

I installed a switch so that I can apply 12 volts to the tcc circuit when the "fishbite" is happening during the warmer months. The 12 volts locks the solenoid out completely (as an override). The result is no "fishbite". The trade-off is, the tcc is not locked-in when cruising. It is not a big deal. Automatic transmissions in the 70's did not have tcc lock-ins. The rpms increase slightly and I have been told the gas mileage will drop some. I really haven't noticed much of a difference though. The check engine light will come on. When the switch is back in the off position, the check engine light will clear on the 3rd start. It does eliminate the "fishbite"...and I have been driving it this way for over 100,000 miles. The tranny seems fine otherwise.

I tapped into the tcc wire at the tranaxle and ran a loop into the cab. Hope yours works out okay. That "fishbite" is aggravating.

Thanks for the quick reply guys. Since the winter months are on their way here in WI, I'm going to try to make it through the winter with this car. Man, that 4T60E is a pain. I recently had a '95 with it that gave me grief too. My '97 Park had the 65, so I guess I thought the LeSabre would too.

I'll take a look at adding the switch too. . .that sounds like an interesting low cost fix.

OH, I searched a little more and found "chuggle." I believe that's what GM calls the fishbite, correct? Have an excellent weekend.

Jeff

OH, I searched a little more and found "chuggle." I believe that's what GM calls the fishbite, correct? Have an excellent weekend.

Jeff

Correct, one and the same. Also known as TCC surge or shudder. We have several threads concerning the issue on AF at various GM forums.


GM TSB #050604058 -- INTERMITTENT CHUGGLE OR FISHBITE ON LIGHT ACCELERATION OR A HIGHWAY SPEEDS WITH NO DIAGNOSTIC TROUBLE CODES (DTCS). *TT (NHTSA ID #10017568, SEPTEMBER 01 2005)

It may be the same problem, but possibly not. To me, a chuggle or shudder may have more to do with the tcc switch not disengaging causing the car to die- kind of like trying to pull to a stop in a manual transmission without pushing the clutch in. I guess it depends on what the problem really is. I haven't experienced the shudder, but I would think that would trigger a code.

The "fishbite" I have encountered does not trigger a code, however, when cruising, it is a "tug" or 'pull" that you can feel and it can be seen in the tach. The tach needle bounces fairly consistently as the slip occurs when the tcc is locked-in (no power to the tcc). The tcc lock in solenoid is actually working correctly. It is more prevelant on an incline (under load), but will also occur when cruising.

The "fishbite" I have encountered does not trigger a code, however, when cruising, it is a "tug" or 'pull" that you can feel and it can be seen in the tach. The tach needle bounces fairly consistently as the slip occurs when the tcc is locked-in (no power to the tcc). The tcc lock in solenoid is actually working correctly. It is more prevelant on an incline (under load), but will also occur when cruising.

Smith: I know what you're saying. I had a '89 Regency that must have had the "true" chuggle. . .in that case the tcc wasn't working right and the car would want to die and gave a more jerky motion.

What I'm experiencing in my '97 is the "fishbite". I can visually see via the tach that the tc is locking out, but I'll get a light tug from time to time. You can see the tach bounce about 100-200 rpm or so when this is happening. No codes are showing.

I tried the easiest fix and disconnected the battery last night. So far, no fishbite today. I pulled a couple plugs (AC's), and they look decent, but plugs and wires are never a bad idea. I'm going to check the MAF today as well.

What I'm gathering is that the "fishbite" is probably more of an engine issue than a tranny issue, no? The only problem is that without a code, we can spend a fair amount of money throwing parts at our cars.

I've also read that the vapor canister filter/solenoid/valve can cause the fishbite too.

Is there an "order of operations" per se when trying to fix this problem? It's more annoying than anything, but am I actually hurting anything by not getting it fixed? Thanks again fellas-

Jeff

Pulling the battery cable may or may not help. The problem may return after a few drive cycles. It has something to do with clearing adaptive shift information stored in the PCM and/or clearing false misfire history DTCs. But it has worked for others on AF. :grinyes:

There is really no order of operation or troubleshooting but IMO that is based on the severity of the problem, time you are willing to put into the problem and budget (monetary) but engine problems will show up as fishbite or a mild undetected misfire condition so I would start there first. Do the least expensive. For example GM claims the TPS is an issue per the TSB out but I have never seen a TPS cure the problem. But you can check that with a DMM. 5 volt PCM reference voltage at the input and output .4 volts dc at idle and around 4.5 volts at WOT. Linear and progressive upward movement with no erratiic or bad spots as you move the accelerator at ignition to on. But based on my experiences on '96 and up GM odb-ii cars a bad TPS will normally set off a DTC.

Spark plugs and wires are the best starting point since it may just be a minor misfire but not enough for sufficient crank variation to set off any misfire DTCs like P03XX. Check coil primary and secondary resistance with a DMM. Also, I have seen fuel supply problems cause fishbite. One member had a clogged fuel filter. Also, a flaky before CAT convertor 02 sensor since fishbite also occurs at the transition between open and close loop mode PCM operation and the 02 sensor is depended upon in closed loop operation to help control emissions and keep the air/fuel mixture ratio at that ideal 14.7:1.

On the two TCC fishbite problems I had one was resolved with new spark plugs and ignition wires. IMO the best wires to use are the AC Delco Premium Silicone 7mm wires. For plugs any AC Delco double platinum or Iridium work fine. Also, NGK Iridium such as the TR55IX. On the other I used Sea Foam tranny additive and Lubegard. Ran it for a few hundred miles. Then then a pan drop and screen filter replacement.

The point is there are alot of variables and possible solutions. Important part is not to give up.

This is excellent information. It could be an engine problem. It took me quite some time to determine the source of the "fishbite" problem in my '97. I replaced the plugs, etc. Checked for vacuum leaks and so forth. It went on for some time. I monitored the tps voltage with a digital voltmeter. The tps progressed through the range normally. When hot out and the car, very warm, the problem would stilll present itself.

Finally, I tapped into the tcc solenoid lock in circuit and ran a loop into the cab. I attached a 12v test lamp. I could watch the lock-in and lock-out of the tcc with the test lamp. When accelerating and at lower speeds cruising (below 40-45 mph), the light would be on (tcc locked-out). When reaching about 45 mph, the tcc would lock-in (light would go out) and the fishbite would immediately follow (provided the car was good and hot, outside temp fairly warm, etc). I knew where on hills I would encounter the problem.

My test was to apply 12 volt to the loop continuously above 45 mph. This resulted in no tcc lock-in and no "fishbite". It cruised smoothly at slightly higher rpms. I have had some loose plug wires and misfires and have usually experienced a code. With the "fishbite" problem, I never did get a code.
A plug miss does feel similar.

I also have used Lucas and Slick 50 addititves. I use them in all of my vehicles with automatic transmissions and have had great results.

The fishbite problem you are having sounds very similar. I would say no, it is not really hurting anything by not fixing it. It is very annoying though. The guy at the transmission shop said heat is the transmission's #1 enemy and it can damage the rubber seals that are used internally. Anything you can do to keep the transmission cooler is a plus. The add-on transmission coolers are a fairly cheap add-on and will help reduce the heat. Some good additives can help reduce friction and heat as well.

Gentlemen,

I appreciate your detailed responses. I have a few things to try. I'll report back to give any updates. Thanks for all your help.

Jeff

Hello. I'm a new member here. I was reading about the fishbite issue with 4t60e transaxle and figured I'd register so I could share my own info about this. My car with this issue is a 97 Lumina LS with the 3100 engine and 4t60E transaxle. I bought the car used with 104K on it. It ran great for several months and did not have the fishbite issue. At near 130K, the trans started slipping, so I changed the fluid and filter. It ran good for another 10K, then did the same thing. I changed the fluid and filter again, knowing the trans was probably going to have to come out the next time. After about another 5K, which brings us to 145K, it was done for. I let Aamco pull it out to rebuild it. They said the damage was so extensive, it couldn't be rebuilt. They offered to get a used transaxle and rebuild it instead. I agreed, so the deed was done. After I got the car back, it was great, and the trans still works well now at about 190K, except for one thing. FISHBITE. I didn't notice the rebuilt trans was doing it for several months because my wife was driving the car and she almost never drove on the interstate at the time. When I drove the car on the interstate, I found that it was chuggling exactly at 74 mph. The tach gauge would start to bounce up and down between 2000 and 2500 rpm at about 2 cycles per seconds. Under load, it goes away, and when the throttle is off. With light to moderate throttle, it is always there as long as the car is over 74 mph. It doesn't matter whether the cruise control is being used or not. Once you drop below 74 mph, it goes away. Also of interest, the symptom occurs at about 55 mph if you are in Drive instead of Overdrive. By the time I knew about the problem, Aamco's 6 month warranty was out. The problem is not engine related at all. As a matter of fact, I just finished putting another engine in the car last week. The cam bearings had finally worn out and the camshaft broke. With the new engine, which runs great, there is no change at all. There are some consequences to driving the car with this issue. The engine and transaxle mounts will wear prematurely. The CV axles will wear prematurely, and irregular tire wear may occur. If I keep the car below 74 mph, I have nothing to worry about, but when you drive on the interstate a lot like me, you feel like an old granny while everybody else is passing you.

Hello. I'm a new member here. I was reading about the fishbite issue with 4t60e transaxle and figured I'd register so I could share my own info about this. My car with this issue is a 97 Lumina LS with the 3100 engine and 4t60E transaxle. I bought the car used with 104K on it. It ran great for several months and did not have the fishbite issue. At near 130K, the trans started slipping, so I changed the fluid and filter. It ran good for another 10K, then did the same thing. I changed the fluid and filter again, knowing the trans was probably going to have to come out the next time. After about another 5K, which brings us to 145K, it was done for. I let Aamco pull it out to rebuild it. They said the damage was so extensive, it couldn't be rebuilt. They offered to get a used transaxle and rebuild it instead. I agreed, so the deed was done. After I got the car back, it was great, and the trans still works well now at about 190K, except for one thing. FISHBITE. I didn't notice the rebuilt trans was doing it for several months because my wife was driving the car and she almost never drove on the interstate at the time. When I drove the car on the interstate, I found that it was chuggling exactly at 74 mph. The tach gauge would start to bounce up and down between 2000 and 2500 rpm at about 2 cycles per seconds. Under load, it goes away, and when the throttle is off. With light to moderate throttle, it is always there as long as the car is over 74 mph. It doesn't matter whether the cruise control is being used or not. Once you drop below 74 mph, it goes away. Also of interest, the symptom occurs at about 55 mph if you are in Drive instead of Overdrive. By the time I knew about the problem, Aamco's 6 month warranty was out. The problem is not engine related at all. As a matter of fact, I just finished putting another engine in the car last week. The cam bearings had finally worn out and the camshaft broke. With the new engine, which runs great, there is no change at all. There are some consequences to driving the car with this issue. The engine and transaxle mounts will wear prematurely. The CV axles will wear prematurely, and irregular tire wear may occur. If I keep the car below 74 mph, I have nothing to worry about, but when you drive on the interstate a lot like me, you feel like an old granny while everybody else is passing you.

Welcome to AF.

Thanks for sharing your experiences. Sorry since this is an old thread it has been closed pursuant to our forum guidelines (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=635166).

You're welcome to make a new post at our Chevrolet Lumina forum.