CV joint? Or maybe something else? Motor mounts?

It all started more than a month ago when I drove to Mineral King in Sequoia NP (I'll never drive there in anything but a rental). The road is almost 30 miles of twists and hairpins in succession, mostly uphill, bombarded and full of craters and waving. The best part is that you can't avoid the holes either because there's too many of them, either because this two way road only has a narrow lane for both directions, so there's no space to avoid them. I found myself with little gas in the tank, so I didn't slow down enough for the obstacles in an effort to save gas. We're quite found of our baby Taurus, it always goes uphill in stride :)
Now this is the bad part. On the way back/down we noticed a weird grinding noise coming from the left side, when we took turns, but only in 1st gear. It didn't occur when in Drive (meaning at higher speed, when the transmission would shift in a higher gear), or when the turnings were milder (quite rare).
I feared the left CV joint (knowing what it does and where it is, not that I ever repaired another one), and hoped for a fallen plastic fender cover (as the grinding had a high tone somehow) which would rub against the tire. When I reached "civilization" and stopped for gas I noticed it wasn't the fender cover. But it didn't give me any more trouble, as there were no more hairpins. So I happily drove home doing XXXmph.
Since then, every day driving to work I turn off the radio and listen to the horrible grinding (I actually had a nightmare one night).

Here are the facts:
1.
A low speed sharp turn with acceleration guarantees grinding. (It would probably do the same at high speeds, I just can't take sharp turns at those speeds :)). It will not grind if I slow down and decelerate (although that's how grinding first occurred) or keep a steady speed. I'm thinking there's no stress on the joints on flat surfaces while decelerating. Today I got some grinding on a higher speed turn also, but I was accelerating hard, I was about 50-60 mph (in a lower speed zone).
2.
It grinds mainly in first gear, but lately I get a bit of grinding when it changes to second also. It does this in straight lines also, from about 1800 rpm to higher, although it does seem to go away above 3000 rpm. It doesn't grind in higher gears and from 25-30mph onward (I've become terrified of traffic lights and stops).
3.
It grinds when accelerating in first gear mainly. If I accelerate mildly and very carefully (enough to annoy the people behind me) it does not grind. If I accelerate hard it doesn't seem to grind (although I may not hear it because of the engine noise).

That's about it. I've driven my Taurus through hairpins many times before, even for similar distances, but I always had a smooth road surface. So I blame the holes ... and myself :(

As I said before, I have little idea of what to look for and I'd appreciate the most detailed posts. I checked the CV boots, and they seem ok, they're quite nice actually, considering some of the rust underneath my car.
I take into account (with my fictional expertise):
-the CV joints
-the motor mounts
-the transmission/the shaft that drives the cv joints

I haven't taken it to a mechanic, because I don't want to be ripped off yet, not to mention I can't afford it. I'm in the process of getting someone to look at it though.
I would appreciate some clues as to determining the cause.
Thanks for your posts!

Edit: Sorry, I got carried away with the long post. It's a '99 Taurus wagon Duratec V6
My impression is that the noise doesn't come from the wheel area, but rather from the inner CV joint area. But I can't say for certain.

Sorry to hear your mtn trip was soured by the sickening sound of something grinding under your Taurus. Just to let you know, it would be helpful in your first post to include the year, engine and sometimes body style of your taurus so that we can better help you out. I'm no tranny expert, so I won't offer much help there, but I would like to allay your fears there by starting you elsewhere. I'll suggest the two easiest things first and then others will have to pick up from there, but I'm hopeful you don't have a trans problem, which is the most expensive. First take her out to a dry clean parking lot and make tight, left and right full circles, slowly. If you hear clicking, thunking, possibly grinding with the other sounds then its a cv joint. If all you hear is grinding, especially in a right turn then your bearings are the problem, most likely. I assume you have no grinding when/caused by braking? Second. jack up the left side so you can yank on the tire, pushing and pulling at the top or pulling on top with one hand while alternately pushing on the bottom of the tire with the other. If loose, its your bearings for sure. Go ahead and rotate the tire to listen for noises wiggling it back and forth and then do it free spinning( you may need to put it in neutral to do this) Putting the tire in different directions and wiggling it may help in investigating if you have a cv joint problem. Also, from underneath, yank on the cvjoint and shaft for play, then try rotating the shafts on either side of the cv joint checking for rotational play. My first guess and gut say you have a bearing going/gone bad. Hopes this helps.

Just out of curiosity, have you been having any difficulty with the starter motor engaging? Also, does the noise occur when turning in either direction, or primarily only when turning one direction?

A co-worker experienced a grinding noise during left-hand turns on his Aurora. It sounded like the pullies were hitting the subframe. However, there was no polish or rub marks anywhere to be found. We were all over the car looking for indications of where the noise could be originating from. We looked for a few days. Progressively, his starter was becoming less reliable. We decided to change the starter out (not fun on the '97 V-8 Aurora). When we got it out, we noticed the solenoid was bad, not holding the gear in a retracted position. A local automotive electronics shop rebuilt the starter, we installed it, and the noise was gone. What apparently was happening was on left-hand turns, the starter gear was sliding into the flywheel and making the grinding noise.

-Rod

Shorod, that's just one for the books, obscure, weird and who would have ever guessed!? But I guess if it can happen once, it can happen again. Lightning does hit the same spot more than once.

maybe ur frame bushings gone! bout 150 to take care that!

@tripletdaddy
I've tried a few things this weekend.
I tried the parking lot spin, I couldn't get it to grind.
Increasing the speed made the tires squeal, so if it grinded at higher speeds, I wouldn't have been able to hear it any way.
I did the reverse spin in a decaying parking lot with a bit of gravel on it.
I wasn't able to hear anything unusual (except the gravel).
After all that, I put the car on jack stands. I tried to find play sideways in both front wheels, but they were ok.
I only noticed some play when changing rotation direction (like forward - backward), doing it with my hands.
I don't know if this is unusual, as there's nothing I can compare it with. It made a sound, ..well...like more than one component was moving.
I tried to find play in the drive shafts (I refer to the shafts between the inner and outer CV joints), but I only found a tiny bit of play, when pushing the shafts inward/outward, same for both sides. I thought that could be normal.
Lastly, I got my wife accelerating and turning the wheels while the car was on jack stands, wheels off. I couldn’t hear any thing unusual.

@shorod
The car starts ok, and the short delays in the morning or after parking front end up on slopes are related to gas feed. The starter (the electric motor that starts cranking right?) is ok, it starts spinning instantly.
The car has the grinding on both sides. And in a straight line as well. I’m beginning to suspect the differential or something like that.

I forgot to mention a couple of things in the first post:

1. I took out about a quart of excess tranny oil a week or two before the trip. It still has some excess oil. (I have this in another topic here on the forum). The car is about 118k miles (although I think the odometer might have been rolled back about 10k). Is it possible that the tranny was overfilled to mask problems?

2. There were 2 occurrences that really got me worried.
a. Once I was taking a sharper left turn, pretty fast and I accelerated at the end of it, exactly when hitting a bump. There was a more powerful grinding, and I felt like something slipped because the engine revved more than was supposed to.
b. Another time, I took a speedy left U-turn on a wider street, accelerating (lightly) at the end (that’s how my reactions are, I couldn’t help it), and the engine revved again, way too high, covering the grinding. It felt like slipping for both me and my wife.

3. In day to day driving, the grinding occurs mostly when changing from 1st to 2nd. (I take caution when turning these days.). It grinds before changing gear, and a little bit after changing. But sometimes it doesn’t grind.

Could someone more experienced than me respond to this? I wouldn't want to be wrong and I'm not experienced enough to bring bad news that may be of this sort.

Tripletdaddy, are you implying that is smells of transmission issues too? Speaking of smells, maybe zorobabel should pull the transmission dipstick and check the color and odor of the fluid. Dark with a strong odor = not a good sign. Pink with minimal odor = not really a bad sign, yet.

-Rod

if the wheel bearings check ok the diff in the trans is on the wayyy out

Tripletdaddy, are you implying that is smells of transmission issues too? Speaking of smells, maybe zorobabel should pull the transmission dipstick and check the color and odor of the fluid. Dark with a strong odor = not a good sign. Pink with minimal odor = not really a bad sign, yet.

-Rod

The transmission fluid is pinkish/reddish, more like pink to me, but then again I never saw brand new mercon. Pretty similar in color to a serviced Accord. However, once gathered in a 2L coke plastic bottle, it gets a lot darker.
The smell is strong enough, some kind of chemical smell.
But I would say it isn’t anywhere near burnt smell (like the burnt brown tranny oil I smelled in a '92 Camry).
I've got to start smelling transmissions tomorrow :).

@danauto,
I was thinking of the differential myself, but I can't say why :rolleyes: .

Oh, and one last thing, I forgot to mention.
I have a leak on the left side, although I haven't been able to determine what it is.
Now that I think of it, what a coincidence! How could I have been so stupid? But this leak came with the car, 8k miles ago.
Is the differential lubed by tranny fluid?
Are they built together, as in transaxle?

Hmm, leak plus fluid gathered in a 2 liter Coke bottle (hopefully not 2L worth of tranny fluid), you probably are a bit low on fluid. When you checked the fluid condition, was it via the dipstick, and did you check the level with the engine hot idling in park or neutral? You may be on to something there. Please report back.

The Taurus does use a transaxle, and the transmission fluid would also lubricate the differential and drivetrain. I'm not sure low transaxle fluid would lead to a grinding noise, but certainly worth remedying if the level is low.

-Rod

Yesterday I noticed the grinding while in park (cold started the car and the rpm went to about 1900), and intrigued, I later noticed it in neutral, but only the first time I revved it, as I couldn’t replicate it. By the way, this was the first time I’ve ever put it in neutral, and revved it. *(please see end of post). I started thinking that it was the torque converter.

Then last evening, I finally check the tranny fluid with the engine running, and guess what: No oil on the dipstick. The manual says you shouldn’t drive the car if the fluid is low …. I’ve driven it almost 2000 miles :banghead: . I took the fluid out a couple of days before going on the trip.

Thanks God, Rod has a nose for dumb people. Thanks a lot Rod.
I did read the manual, but apparently not carefully enough. I probably focused more on the passage where it said to turn off the engine. I should have read carefully until the end. It was common sense for me that the tranny oil level would drop with the engine stopped. I was wrong. I’ve done some reading and understood better. I can’t believe how stupid I was. (Appreciations on private please:grinno: ).

I refilled the tranny, and now it seems to work. I still have some noise when shifting from 1st to 2nd, but it always was like that, I guess it’s normal. Now the tranny fluid level is at the bottom of the crosshatch, but it will be adjusted soon, as I plan servicing the transmission at 120k, or maybe sooner.

The bottom line: problem solved! User error. Thanks Rod. Thanks all you guys for trying to help me.

For the record:
-What caused the grinding? I suspect the torque converter. As I said before, the grinding had a high tone/high frequency. That would explain the slipping in those 2 cases. (but how was the grinding/slipping connected to turning?)
-Where does the fluid go when the engine starts? I think either TC or tranny fluid pump.
-What side effects might the tranny experience in the future?

Thanks again guys, especially Rod!
I’m happy again! :popcorn:

*
(I noticed something strange, I have no idea if it’s normal or not, but when driving at high speeds, if I put it in Neutral, the rpm rises compared to overdrive, and rises to about 3000 rpm, and slowly goes down as the car loses speed. A/C is off. Is this how it’s supposed to be? I’ve done some reading on automatic transmissions and torque converters, and kind of understood how they work, but is there that much drag in the torque converter?

Glad to hear you're running down the road again. Thank you for the follow up.

Can't comment of if what you experience when putting the transmission in neutral at high speeds. I try not to go to neutral when driving. ;) Doesn't seem too outrageous though that the engine speed might increase if you change from heavy loading to minimal loading.

-Rod

Glad to hear you're running down the road again. Thank you for the follow up.

Can't comment of if what you experience when putting the transmission in neutral at high speeds. I try not to go to neutral when driving. ;) Doesn't seem too outrageous though that the engine speed might increase if you change from heavy loading to minimal loading.

-Rod

No, thank you Rod!
I forgot to mention that I have the foot off the gas when trying the neutral "stunt".

No, thank you Rod!
I forgot to mention that I have the foot off the gas when trying the neutral "stunt".

I agree with rod, I remember that my Taurus RPMs would jump up then go back down if I put the car in neutral while driving, even if I had my foot off the gas. I think it's a computer thing and the sudden loss of load that causes it.

The rpms jump up because you have disengaged a loaded engine that will then easily increase in rpm. The computer/electronics have nothing todo with this. Then the momentum of the transmission, ie. fluid, torques converter, shafts, etc. will continue to turn but will "drive" the engine so the engine rpm doesn't just instantly drop to idle. Usually you think of only a stick shift trans as being able to restart your engine if it stalls while rolling. Well, with this momentum of the auto trans and the "driving" of the engine by the trans, I've been able to restart the engine. I didn't think it could be done, but I proved myself it could.

Ok, here's a situation:
If I go downhill at about 60mph in overdrive, when I put it in neutral, the rpm jump up like I said. But, as I catch more speed (let's say 75), the rpm go higher, like adjusting to the speed of the vehicle. This is what's odd to me.
Now I've tried other cars in the same situation, and the rpm drop to idle. I guess it's just the way the AX4N works (or at least mine).