2004 brakes?

I have a 2004 caravan sxt with 48,000 miles on it, My wife drives it and she told me that some times the van would jerk to the right side when she was going down the road.

So I looked at the front rotors today and they look black like the brakes have been dragging in the front. So I jacketed up and pulled the tires off and put a screw driver behind the pad and rotor to squeeze the caliper open, and they seem to move free. Any ideas? We had the master cyl replaced at 5000 miles because we didn't have any brakes at all. Damn thing!

Black residue is probably brake dust as some pads dust more than others. How are the wheels, any blackness there?

It's not brake dust, the rotor's metal it's self looks black and discolored from heat. The rotors don't look shinny and silver like a normal rotor would look.

I cringe whenever I hear about bad brake stories with these Caravans. In my opinion, brakes are the MOST important safety feature of any vehicle. I own an 05' Caravan SXT, and I've also experienced Chryslers under engineered brakes. In all my years of driving, (30) and all the American vehicles I've owned, I've never experienced such crappy brakes as I have on this stupid Caravan. I am so fed up with under engineered, over priced American vehicles, that I'm now considering a Toyota or Lexus for my next vehicle.

At 19,000 miles, I too felt a slight pull sometimes (either right or left), and the pedal began to pulsate. I went to my trusted repair shop, (never the dealer unless it's warranty, and brakes are only warranted to 15,000 miles) and they showed me how the brake pads were 'freezing' within the sliders on the calipers, and how the rotors took on a .0025" TIR warp. Apparently, because the pads were not sliding freely within the caliper sliders, the pads began to deteriorate prematurely, and the extra heat generated from the pads against the rotors caused the rotors to degrade and warp. (The OEM pads are the cheapest you can find, and the steel in the OEM rotors is not the best.) My shop turned the warp out of the rotors and they cleaned and lubed the pad sliders with 1500 degree silicone grease. The brakes worked fine after that, but at my 21K mile service, the pads were almost gone, and the rotors continued to deteriorate. I had the shop put new rotors on, (better grade of steel) and new lifetime warranted pads that do not generate black brake dust. My brakes now work as they did when the vehicle was driven off the lot.

As the rotors / pads heat up, the materials begin to grow. If the pads are freezing against the rotors, the pulling or pulsating gets worse due to the heat buid up and growth. I disagree with homefree, the rotors should be a nice silvery gray steel color. They should not be discolered black, blue, or any other color. When my van was new, the rotors were not black. My new rotors are also not black but shiny steel. I'm now at 24K miles, and my new rotors still look shiny new. Your rotors could be discolered from all the heat. I would put a dial indicator on the rotors, and if the runout is more than .001" TIR, I would replace them. I would also replace them if the parallelism is also out more than .001" TIR, or if they are thinner than allowable limits. I don't have the minimum thickness value, but I could call my garage if you can't find that information. (Took me years to find that garage and I've been with them for years as I trust them implicitly. They show and tell me everything!)

Bottom line, it sure sounds like you need new rotors, pads, and a check of the system.

Good luck

Doctor S.

I wrote:

"I disagree with homefree, "

I wanted to say that I disagree with Bear. I've never seen black rotors due to brake dust.

Sorry Homefree. I should have seen that you were the original poster.

Doctor S

Wow thanks for the tip Doc!
But when you are talking about the slider, are you talking about were the caliper that has the piston part is bolted to the 2nd part of the caliper or were the pads ride them self?

You know I've also thought the same thing about the braking system being pretty cheaply made! Piss poor design i thought! They are like a two piece caliper. I'm going to rip it apart and look for what you are talking about, but ya I see what you are saying about them sticking, hum.

The sliders are the bolts that you remove to take the caliper off.

Thanks Bear! I'm going to check'em out.

Hey Homefree;

Where the pads slide within the calipers. Not the bolts. What my garage actually showed me was the rails the pad(s) slides back and forth. If they get gunked up or oxidized from road spray or road salt, the pads will stick and will not return to their normal position away from the rotors. If the pads do not slide freely, they will 'hang' against the rotors, and the heat build up and the pad deterioration / rotor degradation will begin.

The tracks the pads slide in are what my garage lubed with 1500 degree silicone grease. They had to clean them up with a wire brush first to get rid of the build up of oxidation so the pads would slide back and forth to begin with. Then they lubed them up and reinstalled everything. The cheap metal the pad slides are made of is what is being attacked by road spray, and that is what prevents the brake pads from moving away from the rotors when you remove your foot from the brake pedal.

Good luck.

Doc

Ok Thanks Doc!
You know when I bought this van new in May of 2004 it's been a piece of junk! In October of 2004 the rear brakes would get water in them and freeze the back drums to the shoes so I would have to pull out the propane torch and heat the drum up to free the wheel. So I called dodge up and the had a update (replacement parts) for the rears, put it this way they replaced everything, backing plats, shoes, springs and the drums. Then the master cyl went out and we had no brakes at all, now the damn things are sticking in the front. This really makes a guy wonder if buying something new is really worth it!
And on top of it all, I bought a new in 2004 a DODGE neon SRT-4, but that's been good as far as troubles so far, but it does like to burn off the front tires for some reason. Hmmm

Here's one for you guy's to check on you're van. The rear seatbelts on mine don't catch if you give them a quick jerk but my fronts do. I'm just wondering if you're van is the same?

Hey Homefree!

Thanks for the heads up on the rear seatbelts. I am going to check all of them. The priceless cargo (kids) ride back there, and if I find the seatbelts are not locking, I will drive straight to the dealer and demand action. If they don't believe me, I will get the service manager's to take a ride with me, and they will be in those seats. I will take them for a good ride, and 'slam' the brakes to prevent hitting that deer in the road I thought I just saw. If one of them hits the back of the seat in front of them and gets a bloody nose, they will also be steam cleaning the interior for me, as well as a wash and wax and replacement seat belts. I will also forward this info to consumer affairs and the NHTSA. I will post the outcome here as well. I've been pretty busy lately rebuilding the side entrance to my home, and I can only find time to get on the net once a week, but I will post the outcome.

I also bought my 05' in 2004, but that was after I returned an 04' Caravan with 600 miles on it back to the dealer. At a little over 500 miles, the interior began to fall apart! Yes that's right, the backs of seats and interior panels started to fall off! The dealer said they could fix it up, and I said BS! What's going to fall off in the next 500 miles? The transmission? Was this thing made on a Friday quickly to get their weekly quota before the workers headed to happy hour? I said no way, you are taking it back and your going to give me a deal on this blue 05' I just found on your lot. Otherwise I told them, I'm leaving this POS right in front of your building and I will walk home, then I will go shopping for something better. The salesman immediately dropped what he was doing and started to write up the paperwork. I think a couple of customers also left the showroom after hearing me.

You are right about buying new American cars, they are cheaply made. Corporate greed I guess, plus the money the autoworkers make and they want their health care paid for. So they use cheap materials and add extra cost to the vehicle to pay the exhorbitant salaries and health care for the auto workers. No one pays for my health care but me. This entire experience has really soured me on American auto's. I really do not want to buy another American vehicle ever again. I'd rather pony up the money for something that's built like a Toyota, a Lexus, a BMW, heck I'll even look at a Subaru or Mazda for that matter.

DrS

I really do not want to buy another American vehicle ever again.

DrS people like you are what subsidise my low price car buying habits! that means more cheaply priced used cars for me! not every body is having your experience dr s! i just picked up a 2001 caravan this week for 5 large (grand). it has the 3.3. and judging by the flood of voyagers, caravans, and town and countrys in allpar's 200,000 mile club. i am going to have it quite a while! here is the link below. keep hitting next at the end of the page because there are 8 pages of just caravans some with over 500,000 miles on them. if you want to search voyagers and town and countrys do it on you own time, but i will warn you their is over 10 pages of those.

http://www.allpar.com/old/club/search.php?q=caravan&type=model

Hey 2Kizusu;

I really do hope you enjoy your plastic minivan and you don't have issues like many people do. (This board is full of owners with problems) You have to remember though, you get what you pay for. I just drove by two Chrysler minivans dead on the side of the road with a white flag hanging out the drivers side window just this week!

As far as "search voyagers and town and countrys do it on you own time, but i will warn you their is over 10 pages of those." I would not waste my time. You can search for them all you want. Maybe you'll find your next plastic minivan on that site.

Good luck & God Speed. (Hopefully your brakes will slow you down when you need them the most!)

Doctor S

Hey Homefree;

I did get a chance to check out all the seatbelts in my Caravan this week, and as you posted, none of the rear belts in my van lock either. With a really hard yank on the rear belts, they do lock, but by the time they lock, your face has been planted into the seat back in front of you. Just for a sanity check, I had the wife try it as well, and she actually hit her hand on the seat back, thinking it would lock as the front belts do.

To this end, I am now on a new mission. I am going to shoot a video of these non locking belts and upload it to our local news station, as well as youtube. I am then going on a letter writing campaign. The manual states that all outboard seats have locking belts. This is obviously not true. This is a serious safety issue. I'm now thinking of pulling out the rear seats so no one rides back there. My daughter does not want to ride in those seats now knowing the seat belts are defective.

Great American engineering huh? I think not. No more American made junk for me!

DoctorS

Hey Homefree;

I did get a chance to check out all the seatbelts in my Caravan this week, and as you posted, none of the rear belts in my van lock either. With a really hard yank on the rear belts, they do lock, but by the time they lock, your face has been planted into the seat back in front of you. Just for a sanity check, I had the wife try it as well, and she actually hit her hand on the seat back, thinking it would lock as the front belts do.

To this end, I am now on a new mission. I am going to shoot a video of these non locking belts and upload it to our local news station, as well as youtube. I am then going on a letter writing campaign. The manual states that all outboard seats have locking belts. This is obviously not true. This is a serious safety issue. I'm now thinking of pulling out the rear seats so no one rides back there. My daughter does not want to ride in those seats now knowing the seat belts are defective.

Great American engineering huh? I think not. No more American made junk for me!

DoctorS


They won't lock just yanking on them , thats not the way they are engineered . there is a lot more to these than you think , in the event of a collison the belt tensioner has a pyrotechnic device which triggers along with the airbag to rapidly retract the belt so as you see even the belts are monitored by a computer . The belt tensioners have to be replaced in event of an accident . This is right out of the chrysler 2004 service manual . So just yanking on them or stopping hard in a parking is not going to lock the belts.

Hey 2Kizusu;

I really do hope you enjoy your plastic minivan and you don't have issues like many people do. (This board is full of owners with problems) You have to remember though, you get what you pay for. I just drove by two Chrysler minivans dead on the side of the road with a white flag hanging out the drivers side window just this week!

Good luck & God Speed. (Hopefully your brakes will slow you down when you need them the most!)

Doctor S

1) good luck finding an import without a plastic interior! plastic is the # one interior trim foreign and domestic! my old camrys had plastic everywere. (not complaining about it just noting it)

2) all other forums are full of owners with problems also! go visit other A.F. makes and models. the majority of people don't come to forums to say my car is running great. they are here for friendship and free advice for a diy habit! but when you consider there are roughly 300,000 caravans and t&c sold a year. the problems are well within perspective.
here is a link to a toyota forum site
http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/
plenty of problems as you can see! but know more than normal. just like this site!

3) also you act like no foreign cars are broken down on the side of the road.
on my daily commute i see plenty of both foreign and domestic on the side of the road (usually3-4 of both). and none have ever had a white flag hanging out! and you see two white flags in a short amount of time? :2cents:

good luck and godspeed to you also! (my brakes are still working!) mike

Hi Vipergg;

Thanks for the post and the information. I'm sure Homefree will appreciate the info as well if he reads it. That does make me feel a bit more comfortable knowing there's more than meets the eye.

It is surely strange though that the fronts lock very quickly, and the rears do not. One time in a hurry after jumping in the front seat of the van as I was late to work, I grabbed the belt to buckle in, and it locked. My grip slipped, and since I reach up and behind to grab the belt, I hit myself in the face with my hand. Now I tug on them gently when I buckle in.

My wife drives a 96' Lesabre, and all her belts lock with a quick tug, even the rear ones. Come to think of it, I haven't seen a seat belt that does not lock with a quick tug.

With pyro-technic devices and the need to replace them after a collision, It sounds like Chrysler just wants to get their hands deeper into your pockets!

DoctorS

Hi 2KIzusu!

Yeah, unfortunately the cheaper imports are heavy on the plastic as well. Plastic is Ok, but not every single interior piece! I'm more interested in the Lexus, Jaguars, or BMW's, not the Toyota's, Subaru's, etc... I used to drive a conversion van, with wood, chrome and softness all around you, very little plastic. Unfortunately, they are hard to find now in my area, so that is the reason I went with the Caravan. I guess the conversion van spoiled me.

Yes, I have visited many forums. And yes, many vehicles have many problems. The more of them on the road, the more owners, the more problems. IMO, about the only boards with very little posts and problems are the Lexus boards. Albeit, not very many Lexus on the road. My trusted garage services several customer's Lexus, and they told me that everyone one of them loves their Lexus. I asked them what was the worst breakdown or repair they ever did on a Lexus in the past 10 years, and they told me that the most work they have ever done to a Lexus was replace the O2 sensor.

I also see white flags all the time on the roads. Rough NY roads and harsh weather is not good for vehicles. I've seen many Subaru's, Fords, Chevy's, Toyota's, Chryslers, Pontiacs, to name a few, on the road side with the infamous white flag. And it was strange that I saw two Caravans in one week dead on the road side. Just this week, a Pontiac minivan was dead on the road side. It may have sounded like I implied that no foreign cars are ever on the side of the road dead, but I was only talking about Caravans. I hope I've cleared that up for you.

As far as buying American again, I'm not the only one who feels that way. Here's some links for you to check out:

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007/10/ford_recall_parts.html

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007/10/lincoln_spark_plug.html

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007/10/cr_best_buys.html

http://www.dontbuydodgechryslervehicles.com/

http://www.fordreallysucks.com/more_info.html

http://www.gmsucks.net/

DoctorS

Hi 2KIzusu!

I'm more interested in the Lexus, Jaguars, or BMW's, not the Toyota's, Subaru's, etc...

I asked them what was the worst breakdown or repair they ever did on a Lexus in the past 10 years, and they told me that the most work they have ever done to a Lexus was replace the O2 sensor.

I also see white flags all the time on the roads.

As far as buying American again, I'm not the only one who feels that way. Here's some links for you to check out:

DoctorS
1) good luck with lexus, jaguar and bmw below are links to consumer complaints on those. as you can see lots of problems also! as far as the shop that has only put one o2 sensor in a lexus ever. run far because he is a liar. a lexus common practice is to use all the same drivetrains (engines, transaxles etc...) from toyota. so beware at the mechanic you cited.
lexus
http://www.ripoffreport.com/searchresults.asp?q1=ALL&q4=&q6=&q3=&q2=&q7=&searchtype=0&submit2=Search%21&q5=lexus
bmw
http://www.ripoffreport.com/searchresults.asp?q1=ALL&q4=&q6=&q3=&q2=&q7=&searchtype=0&submit2=Search%21&q5=bmw
jaguar
http://www.ripoffreport.com/searchresults.asp?q1=ALL&q4=&q6=&q3=&q2=&q7=&searchtype=0&submit2=Search%21&q5=jaguar&Search=Search

here this one is the latest recalls form lexus.
http://www.automobilemag.com/auto_recalls/01/lexus/index.html

oh lexus and toyota have piston slap problems?
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21309

http://www.tundrasolutions.com/forums/polls/63616-poll-have-piston-slap-replaced-engine/

no not sludge! in a lexus?
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/lexus.html

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007/01/toyota_sludge_settlement.html

what lexus has paint problems?
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2949373#post2949373

they ,lexus, have never made a lemon have they?
http://www.lemonlawspecialists.com/tsb/lexus_es300_2002.html

2)as far as the white flags i must misunderstand you? white flags are a not common in the midwest (at least where i live). but they are common in ny? :screwy: what do they mean?


3) as far as finding the perfect car they aren't out their! every make has problems as you can see!

good luck with your search! mike

I will tell you that there is ALOT of great info here, on all of your sides.

Im sad to see some of this good info go into the wrong title post.

Well Doc, I finally got around to fixing my brakes and they work better, I also dumped a bottle of this in the tank, http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/littlebluerocket/fuelinjectorcleaner.jpg and now I notice that my gas mileage went up about 7 mpg just because the brakes aren't dragging and I think the injectors were dirty. But anyways thanks for the help!