Thor and his friend are off their rockers: project 1g RX7, comments?

*Cliff notes at the bottom, but there is some really interesting info in here I think everyone could enjoy*

Hey guys, I just thought I would let ya'll know about the crazy shit we have in store for his car. First off, its a 1985 RX7 GSL SE so that means it has the NT 13b, 5 speed, LSD, etc. Its a pretty good car and is quick feeling, but he wants more.

We were going to just rebuild the 13b NT style for it with a wicked ass port. After talking to Lucky about that, we decided to explore our other options because of how much it would cost vs how much power we could get out of it. We looked into a few different combos including a few V8 swaps, a turbo rotary, and the one that I am 97% sure is the one we are going to follow through on.

The turbo rotary was cut down because A) its rated at a whopping 20 more hp that his current more (150 to 170) and its a turbo rotary so naturally we are worried about keeping those apex seals there.

As for V8 swaps we considered a LS1, carbed 327 or 350, LT1, L98, crustang 5.0, and maybe a couple others. All had their ups and downs, but when it comes down to it, getting a decent motor and tranny is going to be quite a bit i.e. a T56 tranny (6 speed from a camaro), LS1, harness, and ECU is going to be around $4000. Even then, once we get the motor, we gotta shoe horn that V8 into it and on top of that its got to be worked on eventually. I think hes still juggling this idea around a little bit but I dont see it going through.

Now for the way Thor thinks its going to go is going to be all sorts of fun :). I was thinking about his project and all 17,000 of my spare parts. Ya know guys, I have all the 4g63 stuff he could need to to get the motor in it besides the tranny, ECU, and turbo. If we could get my spare shit into his car it would help both of us, me so I dont have to deal with shipping, dead beat buyers, etc. and him because it would most likely be the cheapest and easiest to work on.

But how could we get a 4g63 in a RWD car? Drawing off previous knowledge, I know there was a 6 bolt 4g6x motor with RWD in IIRC the 82-89 Mighty Max and D50 pickups. Direct bolt on RWD tranny, the only problem I would think its ability to take power, it was built for a low 100 hp NT motor, what would it do with 300+ ftlbs of torque? Not something I would trust. So what about the Starion? Thats a turbo RWD car so that tranny should hold up just fine, could that go in there? I looked on eBay and the bolt patterns looked the same so I decided to do some research. After some google searching I found a BOMB ass website dedicated to RWD 4g63's, particularly in Starions. Heres what Thor found out.

Mitsu did a "wide block" and a "narrow block" setup on their I4 engines. What this refers to is the longitudinal distance between the tranny bolt holes on the block, other than that they are the same motor. All DSM motors are narrow block, however there were some wide block 4g63's put in other vehicles. As I understand, automatic Mighty Max and D50 pickups from like 82-89 had a 2.0 wideblock 4g63. Now, the turbo Starion/Conquests use the 4g54 which is also a wideblock engine. Does anyone see where I am going with this?

If we can get lucky and track down a 82-89 D50 or Mighty Max we can take the block, put in my turbo internals and head, then bolt the bitch up to a turbo Starion tranny, then BAM! Turbo 4g63 RWD '85 RX7. :D We're going to need to get a Starion drive shaft and rear end as well, then I bet we'll have to cut down the driveshaft but I think it'll be ok. The Starion rear end has an LSD and is a really strong unit too so we wont have to worry about the drive train holding together.

It will start off pretty much stock as hell. Eventually it will end up with a b16g or an e16g, FMIC, custom exhaust/IC pipes, probably some cams, decent clutch, and all other bolt ons necessary for like 325ish hp. This isnt a progress thread yet, but I would like your comments!

Cliff notes for Brian:
-My buddy wants a fast 1g RX7
-Knocked a turbo rotary and V8 swaps off the idea list for various reasons
-Found a bomb ass and uber informative website
-Going to put a 2.0 4g63 with Starion tranny, drive shaft, and rear end into the RX7
-Thor is fucking pumped :)

Cliff notes for Brian:
-My buddy wants a fast 1g RX7
-Knocked a turbo rotary and V8 swaps off the idea list for various reasons
-Found a bomb ass and uber informative website
-Going to put a 2.0 4g63 with Starion tranny, drive shaft, and rear end into the RX7
-Thor is fucking pumped :)
I'm glad to know everybody thinks of me when they type something longer than the book, see spot run. :icon16:

WOW I have to see pictures of this swap. This will blow my mind. It reminds me kinda of this thing I saw on streetfire where this black dude had this mustang with type r stickers on it. And the guy went up and started asking him about the guys car but the dude knew nothing and basically ended up telling him he had a rotary in there. Woulda been hella funny if that guy had popped open the hood and actually had a rotary turbo with a stock intercooler in there. But for you it will be the opposite way but still funny as hell.

haha that video was great.

This will be a great project, cant wait to see it when it gets done. Now this is one of thors friends so we probably wont see anything for about 2 years.

I saw a tv series, 2g rx7 with ls1 or ls2 swap, still loose to the civic.

Thanks guys! I am so unbelievably intrigued by my new found knowledge that when Mike and I begin his hunt for the wide block 2.0, I am going to keep my eye out for a wide block 4g6x as well, they made wide block 4g63's and 4g64's back in the day. I dont think I will make the Talon go RWD, but I will keep the motor for a rainy day :). If it should happen that I blow my current motor, serious thought would definately be put towards making it RWD. It would suck, I know I would lose the amazingness of AWD but I would get a unique ass whip and some fun sideways action instead!

I dont know 100% if Mike will go through with this. I think it will if he can sell his other car and hold down a steady job he shouldnt have much problem at all, but if he keeps juggling jobs like he has been he just wont have the funds to do it. No matter what though, Thor is going to start hunting down a wide block 2.0 or 2.4 and a turbo starquest tranny, driveshaft, and rear end :D. Then if for some strange reason a completely bare and half ways decent 1ga AWD shell should make itself known for next to nothing, Thor will end up with two DSM projects: the straight line street terror known as the Purple People Eater and the side-fuckin-ways pavement pounder now officially dubbed Project X.

That would be so nasty where do you guys live? Im fantasatic at finding cars in fact i know of a mighty max that i might be able to hunt down... either way this project sounds sick as hell

While I have to say that is cool. Why is a V8 swap out? Yeah an LS1 swap would be pricey. But why not buy a ford 351w? You can buy a long block crate motor for like 1500. Saying V8s are expensive motors is silly. ;)

But either way, sounds interesting.

I think he means the fabrication and complimentary parts that have to go along with a v8. I would think the V8 would just throw your weight distribution off the charts.

And this website dedicated to RWD 4g63's is.........

I think he means the fabrication and complimentary parts that have to go along with a v8. I would think the V8 would just throw your weight distribution off the charts.

I don't know if that would matter(Weight distribution). Afterall you can direct drop the 351w into a Mazda 4 cylinder pickup.

But I agree fabrication may play a part in that. But I would think there would be more fabrication in taking a AWD motor and putting in a RWD car, than putting a RWD motor into a RWD car.

my opinion:

as a friend of mine did a fd ls1 swap two years ago i understand all the hard work and respect everything about what he did.i have been working on imports for allmost fourteen years and there is one thing i cant stand is a domestic engine in an import!the rotary engine it is an amazing piece of automotive engineering.i have worked on a few over the years but im amazed at how much power they can make from such a small power plant.i think the rx7 and the rotory engine should stay together,like filling in an oreo cookie!this is my opinion and i respect others work or ideas even though i dont agree.

landry

my opinion:
as a friend of mine did a fd ls1 swap two years ago i understand all the hard work and respect everything about what he did.i have been working on imports for allmost fourteen years and there is one thing i cant stand is a domestic engine in an import!the rotary engine it is an amazing piece of automotive engineering.i have worked on a few over the years but im amazed at how much power they can make from such a small power plant.i think the rx7 and the rotory engine should stay together,like filling in an oreo cookie!this is my opinion and i respect others work or ideas even though i dont agree.
landry

I think more in the case of Thor he is looking to make big power cheap. What I gather he is trying to do is make that car as fast as possible for as cheap as possible. And while the Rx7's rotary engine is a feat of engineering, it's not the most reliable motor and it's fairly expensive to build into a fast motor.

Ah, man. Your talking about dealing with all of this expensive and hard to find parts. F that! If it was me: Chevy V8 swap FTW. You can find a 350 everywhere and stinky cheap. Get a 350 (maybe freshen it up) leave it stock that will be all you need. Carburated FTW....easy, Forget fuel injection and ECU's and all that wiring crap. And transmission....Turbo 350. Never go wrong with the Turbo 350.

1. Stock carburated chevy 350
2. Turbo 350 tranny

Cheap and readily available. The way to go IMO

Garrett: Search n00b! :p The previously referred to dope-ass website is www.projectzerog.com (http://www.projectzerog.com).

Yeah, I know the rotary is an amazing engine, its such a cool concept! Only things that bug me is the weird torque curve and those pesky apex seals. Once this swap is done we dont want to have to worry about a used motor throwing apex seals and rebuilding a rotary is aweful expensive.

As for the V8 swaps, the weight distribution isnt too bad depending on what motor you get. The LS1 is an aluminum block/aluminum head set up and considering the rotary engine is basically a big ass chuck of iron, I hear that the LS1 only weighs something like 40 lbs more. However, if we just got a generic carb'd 350 that would probably have an iron block and I think iron heads so that would mess the weight distribution up bad. Thats kinda why we decided against a non LS1 swap, but also because another kid from our graduating class just finished his 350 to 1g RX7 swap. If we can find a decent LS1, tranny, wiring harness, and ECU around our area then we will consider it, but I have a feeling around our area the cheapest we will be able to find is nothing short of rediculous.

And what talk about a Ford motor and then about a turbo 350? Is you two on 'shine?! :p Nah, I am just not a fan of Ford and arent turbo 350's a 4 speed automatic? Thats one thing about this swap, its gotta be a manual.

As for the RWD 4g63 parts, it shouldnt be too hard or expensive to find. Decent turbo Starquest trannies can be had for <$200-$250 and I couldnt find any prices on rear ends or drive shafts but I cant imagine it could be that bad. The only thing I am worried about finding is a wide block G63B (4g63). I bet we are going to have to scour junk yards all over MN and maybe into Wisconsin and North Dakota to find one. If it comes down to it, we might have to just buy a running 82-89 2.0 truck to donate its motor, but that shouldnt be too bad considering they are most likely going to be 20-25 years old. All the other stuff is in my garage right now. Another thing is that I already know the 4g63 pretty good and all he has to do is buy a socketed EPROM and we can use my DSMlink to tune it. Plus when we get done we will have a 4g63t/Starion/RX7 hybrid!!! What could be cooler than that?

Anyway, the hunt for a wideblock 2.0 or 2.4 continues...

Being the curious motherfucker that I am, I searched for what vehicles those blocks come in. The mitsu mighty max and the dodge (5/87-5/89 only) D-50 G63B block and 13 1/4" (wideblock) between the bellhousing bolts. I did a quick search on car-part.com and found a motor from an 88 in Duluth ($400). If you're really lookin for a serious block, check out car-part.com

Well, I tryed.

Ls1 would be out of the question in my book, cause that will be a small fortune.

Whats wrong with the turbo 350? Thats a hardcore transmission. My buddys got one in his nova and in his 95 camaro. The one in the maro's been built, gotta shift kit, high rpm stall, and a hurst promatic shifter. The 1 - 2 upshift ....the back end wants to step out and get sideways...then the 2 - 3 upshift...the nasty bark, lol. Oh and its a 3 speed not a 4 speed. Makes for some fast passes.

Whys it gotta be manual anyway? Thats just more work, making all that clutch do-do work, be hard. When I first got into cars, before I knew anything I always thought automatics sucked....but now I have the respect for the automatics. 99% of fast drag cars are automatic. I know you dont plan on this car being a drag car, but still...i'd do the auto. I've always thought it would be awesome to have a automatic GSX or TSI AWD.....man. Have a badass motor, but then build the auto tranny, and put a big ass stall in it. Man, that would be so pimp! You know how nasty that thing would be? And if you were using it for drag....the transbrake, wow. Plus no shift time. thats awesome.

But don't take my awesome advice. Build your do-do car how ever you want. All I gotta say is...Good luck and have fun.

Yes, zerog has some good RWD info for all kinds of 4g63 powered cars.

There is a 2nd gen Rx7 out there with a 4g63 and twin 50 trims, making around 700 whp through some toyota tranny IIRC. Looks interesting.

The Starion transmissions are stronger than the trucks, and the internals can be swapped in to the truck's, but you'll still break it eventually, and I have to assume they are getting harder to find at this point.

I'm planning a RWD project of my own, most likely Mightymax. 4g63 with an EVO8 or 9 turbo (already faces the right way), and I don't want to arse about with weak manuals or heavy/expensive T56s, so I'm heavily leaning toiwards a TH200R4, which is essentially an OD TH350. The rear end gears from a mid 80s Montero fit in the Mightymax rear, and you can get a 4.64 LSD which is a better match for the taller Auto gears IMO. First will still be tall, second is decent, 3rd goes to 130 or so IIRC, and OD keeps 75mph cruise rpms around 3k. Once the torque converter selection is done, no more replacing shitbox worn out (and custom) clutches. ;) But since I want to 4 link it anyway I might just go with a GM rear end, which will give me a huge selection of gears, more strength than I need, and make driveshaft work easier.

RWD 4g63s have issues with the cooling system not clearing the firewall, but I'm too tired to get into that again tonight...


Edit: Also, I don't know if I missed it in this thread, but you can use a bellhousing from specific B2600 pickup trucks to adapt a second gen Rx7 trans to a 4g63, since those trucks came with mitsu motors, but I broke my 86 tranny more than once so it's not worth it IMO. ;)

Damn it. I should have lied to you and said a port would have given you 1000hp. Fo the sake of education, here's a *LINK* (http://home.iprimus.com.au/bluey3/portsPage/ports.htm) describing different types of ports for a rotary. I cannot recall if I showed you this, Dustin, but from this, you can see that porting is both time consuming, frustrating, and costly.

As for putting in a piston engine in an RX-7.. well at least it's a 1st gen lol. Also, as much as I disapprove of this.. I'd love to help as much as I can.. even with what I said before haha, just let me know what you need.

I KNOW!!! How crazy is that? I was thinking about this... what kind of a hodge podge would that car be? With the way we're thinking about going about this, we would have:

-85 Maza RX7 shell
-Turbo Starion tranny
-FC Turbo II rear end
-91 DSM motor
-Evo 8/9 turbo

That would be such a fun car. I sorta doubt it is going to happen though, I just talked to him yesterday and he seemed to be having other financial things on the mind like a four wheeler, ANOTHER car (:rolleyes:), and moving out. There is a LOT of work that has to be done and lot of money that has to be spent and I dont know if he quite realizes that. We'll see though :).

Ok, so fuck. I know I am supposed to be getting way ahead in school, but I got an interesting call today. My buddy with the RX7 just bought a new motor for it. Turns out his sister's fiance's brother had a 383 stroker in his Blazer for a while until I think he broke his tranny. Apparently, the motor is barely broken in and was built right... Holley carb, Edelbrock intake mani and heads, and some lumpy cam. How much? $750. I dont know much about it yet, I told him to get compression ratio, head info, and cam info before he gets TOO excited, but regardless its still sweet as hell. If I understand right, that same guy has a manual tranny from a Camaro (oh please let it be a T56!) that we can just HAVE. Now all we have to worry about is the suspension, drive shaft, and rear end.

Well, I dont think I have mentioned, but Mike has two cars... the silver car is a '83 RX7 with the 12a and then the red car is a '85 RX7 with the 13b. The silver car has an exceptional body, but he fucked the interior up trying to paint it plus the clutch went on it. Since the red car is somewhat rare (not too many 13b 1g's running around I dont think) and has impecable interior, we are just going to make the silver car a "race" car. The plans for it are pretty standard. We're going to make sure that 383 is putting 'er down, if it doesnt have an aggressive or aggressive enough cam its going to get one, header and some almost straight pipes (its gotta be atleast somewhat quiet), and of course nitrous. Thats definately going to be a while, but it'll happen eventually :).

He wants it to be a manual so I think we might go with a T56 from a Camaro, but those are awefully expensive. Plus we're going to have to match up the shifter assembly with where the shifter is supposed to go so that might limit shit. The guy he got the engine from has 3 spare manual trannies so we might just have to snag one of those, he told Mike that we could just have one so we'll see how that goes.

I think we're going to run a Chevy 10 bolt rear, if Ford 9" rears werent so fucking expensive we'd do that. I guess whatever fits in there, maybe a welded diff? :grinyes: Its obviously going to need some fat ass tires on the back too, that stroker is supposedly putting down 450 crank hp :eek:.

Its going to need suspension work eventually too, that motor is going to fuck up the weight distribution bad. I think we're going to have to put some bigger brakes in there eventually too but I would imagine those stockers would suffice for a while provided he isnt racing people off every light and having to lock them up for the next one.

We're going to strip the interior too I think since its fucked up already. I think its going to get a small cage as well, I think it could use the extra stiffening from all that torque, for sure once he gets it to hook good and gets some nitrous.

So basically, its going to kick ass. When will it get done? Probably never :p. Nah, its just going to take forever. We have to strip down and prep the shell, put in the new rear end, mount the motor and tranny, blah, blah, blah, plus hes going to have to buy all this shit. I bet we can get it stripped/prepped over spring break and I bet we could maybe start working on it. The motor will go in right away this summer when he gets a tranny and hopefully we'll be driving it in July. We'll see though. Oh, and one of the best parts is the motor is too big to fit in the engine bay... the air cleaner is going to have to hang out the hood :D.

Anyway, I will be popping in and out here once in a while I think in the next couple weeks, but I just cant be spending like 10 hours a week on here anymore.

A welded diff? Never fooled with any of that... But that seems like it would be do-do. Just do it right and put a spool in it. Its cheap.

Welded diffs work great if done right.

If I could get a T56 cheap enough I'd consider one. Probably the only manual I'd run. I'm still planning to go auto though.

Same with us, I think is T56 or bust. Mike is dead set on a manual, but I dont know if any others are strong enough.

Mike's sister's boyfriend is one of the "hicks" around town, but now that Mike is in with them, hes been getting sweet deals on a lot of shit. Yesterday he got a free CB radio, his pick one of three rear ends, a lead on a cheap tranny, and a possible spot to work on it over the winter. I cant wait to tear into this bitch!

Well guys, I have some very interesting news. I did a little looking today and I found a site that sells install kits for Chevy V8's into RX7's! The kits are not expensive at all and have the engine/tranny mounts, a modified oil pan, and instructions/wiring info for $315. So thats nice as fuck, I am SO glad we dont have to fuck around with the mount fabrication.

Now for the tranny. The T-56 (6 speed manual Borg Warner from later 90's Camaros) would be ideal, but they are pretty expensive. Borg Warner also made the 5 speed for the earlier 90's Camaros, the T-5. They actually came in a host of things, Mustangs as well. Well, the T-5 can only hold about 300 ft lbs stock and if the guy was truthful about the motor, it is putting down about 380 wheel ft lbs of torque as it sits. Then I stumble upon this article on some mustang performance site. I need to subscribe to get the whole article (for the gay) but it tells how to disassemble and rebuild the T-5 to take 500 ft lbs. So for us its either going to be a cheap T-56, buy a built T-5 (looked to be about $800 + shipping), or just do the build on the T-5 ourselves.

Now for the driveshaft. Mike's sister's fiance's step dad is going to cut and balance a driveshaft for us. Fucking convenient huh?

What about the rear end... so here is an interesting quote:
The stock RX-7 rear axles are amazingly durable (internally, the parts are similar in size and even stronger than the Chevy 10 bolt that comes in the newer Z-28). While we offer bolt-in narrowed rear housings and axles for the 1st gen. cars, unless you are REALLY going to abuse it, we suggest you try the stock rear first. There are many V-8 powered 2nd gen RX-7s on slicks running mid-10 sec 1/4 mi times on the stock rear, a feat that requires 475-500hp. The clutch type limited slip up thru '88 is very strong 4 pinion style much like the diff design used in the Dana 60.
Hmmmmm, so you mean to tell us that the stock rear end can handle mid 10 second power on slicks?! Hows that for fuckin sweet? There was even one guy on there that ran a best of 9.32 on the stock NT RX7 rear end! :eek: Granted his silver car (the one getting the 383) doesnt have an LSD, I think we're just going to weld the differential and let 'er buck. What if we break it though? That same site sells drop in Ford 9" rear ends :).

I am now thoroughly excited for this project. I mean I was excited before, but now I am so excited I can hardly fuckin stand it. Added weight should be about 100 lbs too so the balance of the car shouldnt be all sorts of fucked up like I thought it was going to be. I just cannot wait to drive it. Mike, my friend Eric with his 3g turbo/manaul swapped MR2, and I have a car club going and I think Mike is our only hope for some rediculous times. Once we get the car running I wouldnt put it past the car to pull some 12's on decent tires and driving, I cant imagine whats going to happen with stickier tires, more aggressive cam/intake setup (I think the carb and IM setup is a little conservative), and some nitrous :evillol:. Kevin, I think I am going to have to plagiarize your idea for a site dedicated to your club, I think that would be a good spot to collect pictures of our shit, interesting links, and maybe a few non DSM tech articles we may find ourselves writing as our car endeavors progress :). Clipskid99, do you still host stuff??

I never broke an axle in the POS Rx7, but I did break the diff output just inboard of where the axle bolts on. And this was a mildly modified stock NA motor. I also snapped a rear diff mount off. And this is all in addition to breaking the transmission twice. The EVO rear end is proven to take over 700 whp reliably, not sure it's worth a swap though.

POSRacing.net actually started in mockery of all the gay little car clubs in our area, but we quickly realized how useful it is for storing a collection of all our project's pictures and videos, hosting links for forums posts, selling used parts, etc. Extremely useful, but time consuming to keep up it up to date.

Yeah, thats sorta why we are starting ours. Theres one club back home that has tons of members, but you dont even need a car to be in it. I would sort of like to join because they get like a 15% discount at NAPA, but at the same time, I dont want to associate myself with the unmodded Camry's and Cavalier's driven by some of the douchiest kids I've ever met. The fastest car in the whole like 70 person club is a dude that is running MKIV Supra that last dyno'd at 500.1 whp (which is the way he bought it). Back then, he didnt even make 12's. Now with stickier tires, a good clutch, and meth/h2o injection (and I assume higher boost) he is still only hitting mid 12's. :rolleyes:

I'm not reading this until you officially come back in about a week....:D

I'm not reading this until you officially come back in about a week....:D
I'm not reading any of it until the entire thread is summarized into a short cliff note list... :icon16: