McLaren gets the shaft

Out of the constructors championship. Talk about a blow to the team. Pretty much obvious who's taking home the constructors championship this year.

Oh come on. This isn't about Ferrari. McLaren screwed up big time. No team should ever have that sort of information from any other team. McLaren shafted themselves. They were lucky that they keep their WDC points. Either Alonso or Hamilton will probably take that this year (my guess is Alonso).

Nobody in the public sector knows all the details so none of us can pass judgement.
If I take into account the facts laid before me, I suspect there are two key individuals responsible for the whole debacle yet the truth of the matter is the only facts bled into the public sector are those which Ferrari is accused of leaking and the FIA comments.

Fact of the matter is it appears Mclaren have been screwed, especially when you take into account the Mosley/Dennis factor, but unless full transcripts become publically available nobody will understand the judgement passed and worse yet the whole truth may never be revealed.

As for Ferrari taking the manufacturer's championship this way, if Ferrari are happy and proud to win it in this way instead of on the track, shame on them!

Nobody in the public sector knows all the details so none of us can pass judgement.

Fact of the matter is it appears Mclaren have been screwed... but unless full transcripts become publically available nobody will understand the judgement passed and worse yet the whole truth may never be revealed.

As for Ferrari taking the manufacturer's championship this way, if Ferrari are happy and proud to win it in this way instead of on the track, shame on them!

Oh come on, how can you say that nobody in the public sector can pass judgement and then say something is "fact of the matter?"

Someone at McLaren had a huge document containing Ferrari technical information and nobody their said anything. This breaks a rule that revolves around one of the main principles of F1- everyone builds their own car. No team should have any other teams technical information under any circumstances. McLaren broke this rule and now they are paying the price.

As for Mosley/Dennis- Mosley cares more about money then his feud with Dennis. McLaren is one of the most popular teams in the sport and brings millions of viewers. Is there even any data that says Mosley was at all involved in this case (I'm being serious, I really don't know).

Ferrari essentially being given the WCC is definitely not ideal, but I would rather see a team win a championship because another team was penalized for a breach of the rules then a team win a championship by blatantly cheating. It isn't fair to say the FIA is giving them the title, they beat every team except the one that cheated. It is rediculous to think that Ferrari shouldn't press charges against McLaren, there should not be a precident that says teams can get away with having other teams technical data.

Screw the WCC, I care more about integrity of the sport then who wins a title one year.

Oh come on, how can you say that nobody in the public sector can pass judgement and then say something is "fact of the matter?"

Someone at McLaren had a huge document containing Ferrari technical information and nobody their said anything. This breaks a rule that revolves around one of the main principles of F1- everyone builds their own car.

This is the type of response I expected from a Ferrari fan and exactly why I don't post in this forum much anymore.

If you've been following the WHOLE thing in the media and through the various press releases, you would have a better grasp of my where my points come from.

You missed the part where I said it 'appears' they've been screwed and the other part where I said we don't know all the facts so how can we honestly pass judgement.

Did you miss the part where Coughlan was suspended when it came to light he had the documents?

Did you miss the part where not even two years ago Toyota was proven without doubt to be using Ferrari documents and only got a slap on the wrist by comparison.

I haven't defended Mclaren, as far as I am concerned if they're guilty then they should be punished, but I don't think the evidence in the public eye can be considered completely damning without the supporting evidence which we haven't seen.

Now that you've reached this point of my post, please go back to the top and read it again before you type a response.

Funny how Ferrari stated they'd be "glad" to accept the constructors championship, even if it involved winning it in a courtroom, yet BMW seemed rather reluctant to assume the 2nd place position due to a technicality. Where are Ferrari's motives here?

I think this article puts it well in nearly every way:

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=32759

I think this article puts it well in nearly every way:

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=32759

That article was a little misleading and lacked some of the facts. I think that this, the FIA's official decision really puts it away-
http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/17844641__WMSC_Decision_130907.pdf

You can skip to section 3, the part that documents the emails between Coughlan, De La Rosa, and Alonso.

The editorial asks why McLaren wasn't found guilty. According to the FIA, there wasn't sufficient evidence in the first round, but that the tribunal left the door open so that if any more evidence was provided the case could be reopened. E-mails between Coughlan, Alonso, and De La Rosa were made known to the FIA and the two drivers provided those messages to the FIA. Here is an example of the new evidence-

Section 3.5- “Hi Mike, do you know the Red Car’s Weight Distribution? It would be
important for us to know so that we could try it in the simulator. Thanks in
advance, Pedro.
p.s. I will be in the simulator tomorrow.”

Section 3.9- “All the information from Ferrari is very reliable. It comes from Nigel Stepney, their former chief mechanic – I don’t know what post he holds now. He’s the same person who told us in Australia that Kimi was stopping in lap 18. He’s very friendly with Mike Coughlan, our Chief Designer, and he told him that.”

That editorial also asks why the drivers wern't penalized. The drivers wern't penalized because they were given immunity in exchange for their testamony. This is fairly common practice in western courts.

Section 3.3- "The McLaren drivers were reminded of their duty as competitors and Super Licence holders to ensure the fairness and legitimacy of the Formula One World Championship. Given the importance of establishing the facts and that the information might not come out any other way, the FIA offered the assurance that any information made available in response to the letter would not result in any proceedings against the drivers personally under the International Sporting Code or the Formula One Regulations. However, the drivers were notified that if it later came to light that they had withheld any potentially relevant information, serious consequences could follow."

As far as I'm concerned, the FIA document provides plenty of information that proves that McLaren had and used Ferrari information.

Also, please don't accuse me of being any more biased then you are. You've got a little McLaren swoosh thing in your avatar just like I've got Schu's helmet. None of the editorials and articles you've read have half the importance of this FIA document.

Saying that "this is the type of response I expected from a Ferrari fan" is a blatant attempt to destroy my credibility by generalizing a huge group of people. Debate the arguements, not the person. As far as I can tell, there isn't any unifying trait of Ferrari fans other then the fact that they like Ferrari. There is no difference between a "Ferrari fan" a "McLaren fan" or a "Toyota fan" other then the team they like.

Finally- you really can't say that something is "fact of the matter" and "appears" in the same phrase. It is like saying "I am absolutely certain that something might be true."

Espionage has been going on in F1 for years. What makes this case any different?

Only novel part (apart from the witch hunt) is what prompted Stepney to betray Ferrari like he did? Moles/traitors usually stand to gain in some way, how so Stepney?

Mclaren are cheats and liars, rotten to the core, and they must be laughing thei hypocrytical asses off behind the fake integrity claims for getting off with this joke of a punishment, thanks, no doubt, to the golden boy driving for them this year.

There was no way Hamilton would have been penalized, he can do nothing wrong. Well, congratulations. Mclaren have polluted the season from the very start, but as long as it is not Schumacher or Ferrari, they can apparently use an unfair advantage over the whole field to be in a comfortable position to win the drivers' title. Hypocritical cheating liars as far as I'm concerned, starting from Ron and going at leat to the test driver and the engineers.

Whats the deal Alex, you just trying to prove Ray right? :lol:

Whelp, Ferrari has officially secured the WCC after Spa (not like anyone else had a chance). Its kind of a wierd feeling to win this way. On the one hand they deserve it because they did beat every team that played fair, on the other hand they didn't beat their only competition this year. Hopefully Renault or BMW are able to step up next year, with McLaren short $100m, I doubt they will be able to compete at the same level as they did this year. I'd like to see another season like 2003 or 2006, not another 2004 where Ferrari is absolutely dominant. Don't get me wrong, I want Ferrari to win, but I would rather it be close.

Next year, Ferrari vs BMW...

My world will officially be over. I wouldn't have any clue who to route for.

Let's all lose site of where this all started, when one disgruntled Nigel Stepney raised the flag against his own team using an illegal device on their car (would that be the team which is declared in this very thread to be the picture of integrity and honesty?).
Now keep in mind this illegal device was on the car for several seasons and that no punishment was dealt even though the device was deemed illegal and you have to ask if the FIA are treating everyone equally?

To Dinan, that is exactly what I was referring to in my post, prior to that info being released to the public I felt it unwise to make a judgement call either way. It is now clear to us all that Coughlan had the info and did indeed share the info within the team.
It should also be taken into account that when Alonso disclosed to Dennis that this had happened, Dennis himself told the FIA. If Dennis is such a cheat, why would he blow the whistle on his own team.
Based on this info coming out, there is no doubt that punishment should be imposed.

Ales, I see you're still spouting the same rhetoric from behind your rose tinted glasses.

....behind your rosso tinted glasses.

Fixed.

Anyway, Ron Dennis has said that nothing in their design comes from the Ferrari data. Apart from the obvious copying of device designs, how else can this sort of data be used?

Fixed.

Anyway, Ron Dennis has said that nothing in their design comes from the Ferrari data. Apart from the obvious copying of device designs, how else can this sort of data be used?

According to the transcripts of the e-mails from Coughlan to the drivers, they primarily used the data in understanding how Ferrari set up their car to work well with the Bridgestone tires.

Essentially, they seemed to have used the testing data contained in the package Stepney sent them.

Oh right.
So it's about the tyre testing data.
Which reminds me, what did happen with that thing with Firestone tyres running on Indianapolis in a non-F1 race that essentially gave the Bridgestone teams tyre/track data when they weren't supposed to?

Wasn't the whole thing about switching to one tyre manufacturer to level out the playing field? How is it levelling out the playing field when some teams have previous experience with the tyre manufacturer?

Oh right.
So it's about the tyre testing data.
Which reminds me, what did happen with that thing with Firestone tyres running on Indianapolis in a non-F1 race that essentially gave the Bridgestone teams tyre/track data when they weren't supposed to?

Wasn't the whole thing about switching to one tyre manufacturer to level out the playing field? How is it levelling out the playing field when some teams have previous experience with the tyre manufacturer?

Further proving the fact that what's fair for one team isn't fair for another.

And which team is bleating the loudest about the introduction of the control ECU for next season?

As I understand it Stepney giving McLaren Ferrari's data had little to do with a sense of motorsport fairness and more to do with a misguided attempt to gain favor with another team. Ferrari's questionable aero-device (moving floors I believe they were called) took advantage of a gap in the rules. It passed every test created by the FIA to declare a 2007 car legal. It did however violate the spirit of the "no moving aerodynamics" rule. McLaren asked the FIA to clarify their rules and review their testing of cars in light of the new Ferrari development. The FIA ruled it illegal and Ferrari did away with it.

The way I see it Ferrari did what they thought was coming as close to breaking the rules as possible without actually breaking them. In order to be a highly competitive team you must do this. Ferrari never hid their aerodynamic device, the FIA deemed it fair until Ron Dennis argued against it.

I also understand that Alonso basically told Dennis that unless Dennis told the FIA, Alonso would himself. Alonso basically gave Dennis an opportunity for damage control. Alonso wasn't about to risk himself to save the team and Dennis didn't tell the FIA until Alonso forced him into it. I personally see Alonso as the good guy in the McLaren team for providing the FIA with the emails and giving Dennis a chance to tell the FIA himself, although some people think Alonso was "blackmailing" Dennis into giving him preferential treatment (which I don't think he needed as he proved at Spa and Italy).

Regarding how exactly McLaren used the Ferrari data, it is my understanding that they tested Ferrari elements to see if they would benefit them. The two cars were vastly different before McLaren recieved the Ferrari information so it didn't help too much in that respect. Stepney also provided some information on Ferrari's race strategies for the earlier races, for example, which lap Kimi would pit in Bahrain. Just because Ferrari technology isn't in McLaren's car doesn't mean that McLaren didn't attempt to use it, as is shown in the FIA document.

Regarding the single tire manufacturer, supposedly the new Bridgestone tires are significantly different from the 2006 and earlier models. We can see evidence of a difference in the slower times compared to last year. That given, Ferrari does have a history with Bridgestone, but you can hardly blame Ferrari for there being a single manufacturer. Blame lies with Michelin and their failure to produce an acceptable tire at the 2005 USGP.

Edit: just saw this and thought it was cool- Kimi entering the pits at Spa
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/1803/2007belgiangprace9lastlsh4.gif

Blame lies with Michelin and their failure to produce an acceptable tire at the 2005 USGP.


I think in this instance, you're losing site of the fact that 2005 was the single tire for a race weekend season. Besides that you have to then go back to the point that Bridgestone/Firestone had track data which Michelin didn't from the earlier IRL races in the season.

Oh right.
So it's about the tyre testing data.
Which reminds me, what did happen with that thing with Firestone tyres running on Indianapolis in a non-F1 race that essentially gave the Bridgestone teams tyre/track data when they weren't supposed to?

Wasn't the whole thing about switching to one tyre manufacturer to level out the playing field? How is it levelling out the playing field when some teams have previous experience with the tyre manufacturer?

Whatever happened in 2005 it was not illegal. What the cheats and hypocrites at Mclaren did was. And they even sort of got punished for it, even though I believe I've made my feelings about that "punishment" clear.

As for single tyre manufacturer, well, why do you think Williams and Toyota switched to Bridgestone in 06? Because they wanted more experience with the tyres before everyone moved to them (and their comparative performance this year shows how much help that was - seems to be none considering just how different the tyres are). Heck, in that case you can cite previous experience with Bridgestone of every other team in the championship - before Michelin came about. And having experience with the tyre manufacturer, yet again, is not legal, while Mclaren's conduct with the illegally obtained information was illegal and cheating. Try to live with it.

McLaren asked the FIA to clarify their rules and review their testing of cars in light of the new Ferrari development. The FIA ruled it illegal and Ferrari did away with it.

The way I see it Ferrari did what they thought was coming as close to breaking the rules as possible without actually breaking them. In order to be a highly competitive team you must do this. Ferrari never hid their aerodynamic device, the FIA deemed it fair until Ron Dennis argued against it.


That's partly true. Dennis did not ask for clarification of the device on the Ferrari car (of which he wasn't supposed to be aware of) but pretended to be thinking of having one installed on the Mclaren car. If that isn't an example of the hypocrisy of the majority of the top personnel at Mclaren I don't know what is.

I also understand that Alonso basically told Dennis that unless Dennis told the FIA, Alonso would himself. Alonso basically gave Dennis an opportunity for damage control. Alonso wasn't about to risk himself to save the team and Dennis didn't tell the FIA until Alonso forced him into it. I personally see Alonso as the good guy in the McLaren team for providing the FIA with the emails and giving Dennis a chance to tell the FIA himself, although some people think Alonso was "blackmailing" Dennis into giving him preferential treatment (which I don't think he needed as he proved at Spa and Italy).

That is something we just do not have enough information on I feel, but I'm very reluctant to see Alonso as a good guy. He had no problem using information that he knew was obtained illegally and even asking Coughlan through De La Rosa for more. After his high horse holier than though moments last season he comes off as one of the biggest hypocrites in the story. The biggest is still probably De La Rosa as he was arguably the most vocal at Monaco last year and yet was first to knowingly use illegally obtained information. I could barely believe my eyes when I first saw those emails, it's just mind boggling.

Blame lies with Michelin and their failure to produce an acceptable tire at the 2005 USGP.

It's funny how there is no problem with Bridgestone bringing (relatively) largely uncompetitive tyres for all the races but one, but once Michelin does that and Bridgestone actually deliver then it's unfair.

I just knew I would have to deal with this bull all season, and that's no fair to me, this was my very first F1 season to watch. There was so much corruptness in this season and it was mostly Mclaren, especially hamilton being lifted back onto the track during the rainstorm, the only one to get that treatment.

The worst thing I've seen the Ferrari drivers do this year was fight with eachother for position, and the Ferrari Team let them fight. Compared to Mclaren, where they were making team orders not to pass eachother, even if one is faster. Ferrari was more likeable this season...that is, before the whole scandal, now they're crybabies. I never was for that 'secret setup' crowd, I like to share, makes it more of a driver's race.

Honestly, I want to see BMW win now, I'm tired of the red and the...silver and red, I wanna see some white and blue. Red's still my favorite color though.

....Mclaren, where they were making team orders not to pass eachother, even if one is faster.

You say you've never followed F1 before so you can be forgiven this but you really should read some of the history of the races...

You say you've never followed F1 before so you can be forgiven this but you really should read some of the history of the races...

Exactly, Schumacher wouldn't have anywhere near his tally of wins were it not for Ferrari constantly making his teammates pull over for him.

Exactly, Schumacher wouldn't have anywhere near his tally of wins were it not for Ferrari constantly making his teammates pull over for him.

Schumacher's teammates hardly "constantly" pulled over for him. How many instances can you really mention where Schumacher was really handed the win by a teammate pulling over for him?

2002 Austrian GP is one of the best examples, but you're right, they usually held them in the pits longer than required to give Schumacher time to get by.

hahaha... some things never change :lol2: