86 taurus with 87 computer doesn't pass self test
oasisgod
09-01-2007, 05:48 PM
I'm hoping someone can help me out with my car. Awhile back I fried the computer in it by shorting 12 volts through the diagnostic connector.:uhoh: I got a used computer for it out of an 87 that was identical to my car even the color all the same options an was an LX just like mine. Under the hood looked identical to mine. The car never ran right though but all i could pull from the computer was a code 88 which i could not find refrence too at all. After driving the car for awhile till it just finnaly gave in all together and I couldn't keep it running double footing it or not. I went and read the codes again and it spit out a code indicating the map sensor plus the code 88. I changed the map sensor and the car fired right up like it was brand new. Drives and runs perfect again. The car only has 70000 on it. Awsome but
My Service light comes on when i first start it then goes out after i drive 30 foot. I went and read the on demand codes and got an 11 which meant pass.
The second part of the diagnostic you start the engine and the computer will advance the timing by 20 degrees. Your supposed to take a timing light and check it to make sure that it has advanced 20 from the original value. Yet my car will not start in this mode. When i turn it off for ten seconds and start it to put it in the 3rd test mode it runs and gives me two codes one indicating the brake peddal switch isn't working (which it works fine) and one saying the engines temp sensor isn't working which i believe because the fan has never kicked on in that car but i've tested the fan and it does work. What I don't get is why would it not pass the advance timing test? Even though that kindof advance seems to me would make the motor not run but then again I'm far from very knolegable about timing. Any suggestions, help or just some input on what you guys think would be very appreciated. Like I said the car drives great so its not an end of the world thing. Oh and would dirty plugs possibly cause that, the car ran rich when it wasn't running right. I did change the plugs right before i fried the computer and i checked one after I got it running right again and it was pretty black but the car doesn't seem to be skipping at all. Any input very appreciated.
My Service light comes on when i first start it then goes out after i drive 30 foot. I went and read the on demand codes and got an 11 which meant pass.
The second part of the diagnostic you start the engine and the computer will advance the timing by 20 degrees. Your supposed to take a timing light and check it to make sure that it has advanced 20 from the original value. Yet my car will not start in this mode. When i turn it off for ten seconds and start it to put it in the 3rd test mode it runs and gives me two codes one indicating the brake peddal switch isn't working (which it works fine) and one saying the engines temp sensor isn't working which i believe because the fan has never kicked on in that car but i've tested the fan and it does work. What I don't get is why would it not pass the advance timing test? Even though that kindof advance seems to me would make the motor not run but then again I'm far from very knolegable about timing. Any suggestions, help or just some input on what you guys think would be very appreciated. Like I said the car drives great so its not an end of the world thing. Oh and would dirty plugs possibly cause that, the car ran rich when it wasn't running right. I did change the plugs right before i fried the computer and i checked one after I got it running right again and it was pretty black but the car doesn't seem to be skipping at all. Any input very appreciated.
inafogg
09-01-2007, 05:57 PM
Code 88
Throttle Kicker Solenoid - Solenoids
Variable Voltage Choke relay circuit fault - VVC
Fan Control circuit fault - A/C and Fan Circuits
A4LD - Converter Clutch Override solenoid - Transmissions
Electronic Ignition - IDM, DPI or spout circuit fault - Ignition Systems
HOPE THIS HELPS!! Good Luck Let Us Know
Throttle Kicker Solenoid - Solenoids
Variable Voltage Choke relay circuit fault - VVC
Fan Control circuit fault - A/C and Fan Circuits
A4LD - Converter Clutch Override solenoid - Transmissions
Electronic Ignition - IDM, DPI or spout circuit fault - Ignition Systems
HOPE THIS HELPS!! Good Luck Let Us Know
inafogg
09-01-2007, 06:13 PM
what engine is in the 86 taurus?? also code 11 means system checks ok. dont no if u ment by saying. "" I went and read the on demand codes and got an 11 which meant pass ""
oasisgod
09-01-2007, 10:38 PM
The taurus has the 3.0 Vulcan V6. I understand your confusion about the code 11. My post wasn't very clear. In these cars there is a 3 part diagnostic routine. So unlike a modern car that you just plug your scan tool into and get your codes this is a process.
The first part is called ON Demand and continuous memory check. Basically you turn the car on but don't start it. The computer checks all its sensors and pretty much just makes sure that everything is plugged in. It gives you codes for this section in my case an 11 meaning that everything checked out normal. Then immediately following that it checks its stored memory and spits out more codes, which once agian i received another code 11 meaning I had no stored codes.
The next part you leave the car on and now crank it, this part of the test the computer attempts to advance the timing by 20 degrees. As I understand it the car should start.This is the part where my car fails to start all together.
The third part you cycle the key off then on then crank it. The motor starts normally and the computer throws you more codes, this is where i received the coolant temperture switch code and brake switch codes.
My question is why would the computer not be able to advance the timing
and why does my check engine light come on and stay on after i start the car but then go off as soon as I drive 30 feet?:banghead:
and just a note the car does run perfect normally in town or on the highway besides the mil light coming on for that little bit
The first part is called ON Demand and continuous memory check. Basically you turn the car on but don't start it. The computer checks all its sensors and pretty much just makes sure that everything is plugged in. It gives you codes for this section in my case an 11 meaning that everything checked out normal. Then immediately following that it checks its stored memory and spits out more codes, which once agian i received another code 11 meaning I had no stored codes.
The next part you leave the car on and now crank it, this part of the test the computer attempts to advance the timing by 20 degrees. As I understand it the car should start.This is the part where my car fails to start all together.
The third part you cycle the key off then on then crank it. The motor starts normally and the computer throws you more codes, this is where i received the coolant temperture switch code and brake switch codes.
My question is why would the computer not be able to advance the timing
and why does my check engine light come on and stay on after i start the car but then go off as soon as I drive 30 feet?:banghead:
and just a note the car does run perfect normally in town or on the highway besides the mil light coming on for that little bit
shorod
09-02-2007, 10:04 AM
There is a "SPOUT - SPark OUTput" shorting plug that should be plugged in to a wire dangling near the distributor. The shorting plug is probably gray in color (when clean). This shorting bar needs to be installed for the computer to be able to adjust the timing. You may want to verify this SPOUT connector is installed. I don't know if during the second portion of self test, the PCM adjusts other parameters to help compensate for the timing advance. If so, a missing SPOUT may explain the no start. If not, then it seems unlikely.
Also, I'm going off memory on the SPOUT color and location, so hopefully you have a service manual of some sort to verify this, or maybe AutoZone online has the info in their repair section.
FWIW, you really should remedy the problem with the cooling fans. The first time you overhead that engine, you could have signifcant damage to the head and head gaskets. And, if your coolant temperature sender is not work, in addition to the sensor, you'll not have an indication of overtemp on the instrument cluster gauge or warning light.
-Rod
Also, I'm going off memory on the SPOUT color and location, so hopefully you have a service manual of some sort to verify this, or maybe AutoZone online has the info in their repair section.
FWIW, you really should remedy the problem with the cooling fans. The first time you overhead that engine, you could have signifcant damage to the head and head gaskets. And, if your coolant temperature sender is not work, in addition to the sensor, you'll not have an indication of overtemp on the instrument cluster gauge or warning light.
-Rod
inafogg
09-02-2007, 03:23 PM
hey oasis u mention that computer came from same type car. u didnt mention the engine from donor car. was it a 3.0 L? i just want to make sure.
oasisgod
09-02-2007, 04:53 PM
Thank you for your replies.
The Donnor car had an identical 3.0 Vulcan V6 in it but it was a year newer car but appears to be the same.
Shorod - I have been trying to figure out what the spout connector was for some time since before I figured out that the problem was the Map sensor I suspected the timing. I know you need to disconnect it to be able to time the engine but was unable to figure out what it is. I found two connections that seem like they might be it an included pictures hopefully you can point out which one it is or if its neither. I was unable to locate any hanging wires or anything unplugged.
As for your sugestion to fix the temp switch i completely agree, my only problem is i don't know where it is. However I did change the temperture sending unit awhile ago and the gauge on my dash is accurate of the engine temp. It appears though that this car uses a seperate sensor for the cooling fan if you or anyone else have any input on where to find that it would be great. The crappy hanes manual I have says you should check it if the fan doesn't ever come on and how to check it but doesn't show or tell you where it is.
Thanks for your comments
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1259/1305741389_530271fbbc.jpg?v=0http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1223/1305733031_cfe64b2133.jpg?v=0
The Donnor car had an identical 3.0 Vulcan V6 in it but it was a year newer car but appears to be the same.
Shorod - I have been trying to figure out what the spout connector was for some time since before I figured out that the problem was the Map sensor I suspected the timing. I know you need to disconnect it to be able to time the engine but was unable to figure out what it is. I found two connections that seem like they might be it an included pictures hopefully you can point out which one it is or if its neither. I was unable to locate any hanging wires or anything unplugged.
As for your sugestion to fix the temp switch i completely agree, my only problem is i don't know where it is. However I did change the temperture sending unit awhile ago and the gauge on my dash is accurate of the engine temp. It appears though that this car uses a seperate sensor for the cooling fan if you or anyone else have any input on where to find that it would be great. The crappy hanes manual I have says you should check it if the fan doesn't ever come on and how to check it but doesn't show or tell you where it is.
Thanks for your comments
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1259/1305741389_530271fbbc.jpg?v=0http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1223/1305733031_cfe64b2133.jpg?v=0
shorod
09-02-2007, 09:30 PM
The picture on the right is the SPOUT connector. I can't see the rest of the circuit on the picture on the left, but I susect that may be the connector for the noise filtering capacitor (aka: condensor) for the ignition coil.
The coolant temperature sensor is often located very near the thermostat housing, in very close proximity to the sender, and it will look nearly identical to the sender. Not positive this holds true on your '87, but that's pretty typical for Fords. Does the Haynes manual give you a wiring diagram of the engine control components? If so, it should show you what wire colors you're looking for for the sensor. That may help you determine if you've found the right thing.
-Rod
The coolant temperature sensor is often located very near the thermostat housing, in very close proximity to the sender, and it will look nearly identical to the sender. Not positive this holds true on your '87, but that's pretty typical for Fords. Does the Haynes manual give you a wiring diagram of the engine control components? If so, it should show you what wire colors you're looking for for the sensor. That may help you determine if you've found the right thing.
-Rod
oasisgod
09-03-2007, 12:03 PM
Just a follow up for now
Thanks Rod, for pointing out the SPOUT, when i get my hands on a timing light I want to check the timing just to make sure its on. I was able to locate the temp switch its sticking right out of the top of the head, and it fairly larger than the sending unit. I figured it out by looking at the part from autozone then looking under my hood like you said it was located right next to the thermastat housing. I want to change it but running on the tattered edge of funds right now got to wait to thursday. I have my inspection tomorrow hopefully I didn't miss anything. I did notice today that my cat is overheating. I could smell it. I think I damaged it when I tried starting the car for like an hour after I fried the computer along time ago. Filled the oil with gas then changed the computer and it fired up and poured smoke like I've never seen. Seems i have good flow though. If i have too I'll hollow it out, around here they don't stick things in your tail pipe. So I'm just going to go play video games and wait for pay day thanks for all your help.:popcorn:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1090/1313828280_acedaa6099.jpg?v=0
Thanks Rod, for pointing out the SPOUT, when i get my hands on a timing light I want to check the timing just to make sure its on. I was able to locate the temp switch its sticking right out of the top of the head, and it fairly larger than the sending unit. I figured it out by looking at the part from autozone then looking under my hood like you said it was located right next to the thermastat housing. I want to change it but running on the tattered edge of funds right now got to wait to thursday. I have my inspection tomorrow hopefully I didn't miss anything. I did notice today that my cat is overheating. I could smell it. I think I damaged it when I tried starting the car for like an hour after I fried the computer along time ago. Filled the oil with gas then changed the computer and it fired up and poured smoke like I've never seen. Seems i have good flow though. If i have too I'll hollow it out, around here they don't stick things in your tail pipe. So I'm just going to go play video games and wait for pay day thanks for all your help.:popcorn:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1090/1313828280_acedaa6099.jpg?v=0
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