All Marlboro Decals being withdrawn

Today I received a recorded letter from the lawyers representing Philip Morris USA demanding all products bearing the Marlboro trademark be withdrawn from sale.
Unfortunately I can afford/don't need the hastle fighting this etc.

I believe i'm not the only model shop who has recieved this letter.

(http://www.hiroboy.com/catalog/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=Marlboro&sort=2a&page=1)

Thanks for the heads-up.

Bunch of whine-ass pussies, those marlboro cowboys.

Just venting. ;)

Shouldn't they be going after the producers, and not the re-sellers?

Regardless, I just placed my order.

Thanks for the heads up Steve.

They should have no jurisdiction over you since you're based in the UK, am I correct? :dunno:

hehe, isn't Studio 27 plannin to release the McLaren F1 GTR Malboro...? :uhoh:

They should have no jurisdiction over you since you're based in the UK, am I correct? :dunno:

Incorrect, Philip Morris is an International company with offices in the UK.

Why do they do this? Do they object to their logo being used because of a copyright issue,or is it a money thing,where by if they were getting paid a large sum of money by the decal company then it would be fine for them to print the decals.At the end of the day you would think they would be happy for their logo to be used after all it's free advertising for them.

you would think they would be happy for their logo to be used after all it's free advertising for them.
That's what I would think, I also don't know which manufactures have permission and which don't so I have to remove them all sadly.

I wonder if Tameo will no longer get the tabacco decals, those Ferraris will look empty, cause I assume the Barcode is not allowed also

That's what I would think, I also don't know which manufactures have permission and which don't so I have to remove them all sadly.

It must be because of the anti tobaco laws. I suppose this is their problem, so probably no manufacturer will be allowed to make any Marlboro decals anymore.

When PM lost the big one, one of the agreements was not to advertise to steer up kids to smoke.

Thus, no Camel Joe, no cartoonized ads, no car magazine ads, and such...

The problem:
There are hungry lawyers with big eyes watching PM to violate one of these agreements so they can cash out fines.

Then why the Marlboro decals?

We understand scale models are NOT toys. We think of them as... an art... very finly detailed sculptures. :)

To them, scale modes = (equal to) toys = kids = smoke stickers = violation of the agreenment = fine = more money for "those" who are entitled to!

I also got the same letter several years ago for having a web site with Marlboro decal-ed F1 models. I was able to deal with them to make them go away by putting fine letters which lawyers would read on every web page of mine. The fine letters basically state that my models are a private property of an individual collector and that they are not intended to indorse any tabacco ads.

That settled for me and they went away.

But yes, I feel bad how things are tightening for the scale modelers...

1. It's the law and it's their right to protect themselves and their interests. Copyright is copyright and everyone is aware that infringing copyright is illegal - there's no point in acting surprised when someone stands up to protect their legal property. We all would if we were in the same position.

2. It's bloody annoying for scale modelers who are interested in realism - I fully understand that and feel it myself but....see point 1

3. They quite rightly assume that a strategy based on hitting retail/distribution in countries where they have a chance of successful legal action is going to be more fruitful than chasing producers around China where the word "copyright" isn't found in many dictionaries.

4. Let's be realistic. I don't for one minute suppose that nay Chinese manufacturers are feeling particularly worried about this at the moment. The only problem for them will be in finding distribution channels that are willing to stock their products - I suspect that internet sales and shipping directly from the PRC will be increasing in the near future - buy shares now! ;)

5. I think Steve is 100% right and sensible to do what he is doing. I'd stop stocking them myself in the blink of an eye - it's not worth risking your whole business trying to defend the indefensible.

I hope you don't mind me asking when did you get your Letter telling you about the pull on those products;for all the U.S. Companies Scale MotorSports, I have a lot of time on my hand If it's ok with you I can send letters asking if they had to pull those products. Now I wont tell thim I'm doing this Action on your behalf but I do have the time to do this, so we can save some of your products.
PS hope you don't hate the thread I did.

Why not have a "other decals" section that only a person who KNOWS what decals belong on a car, that being a collector, or historic modeller, can get them without actually SEEING the decal before it hits their mailbox. Don't label it as a Marlboro Ferarri F-1 decal set, but rather Ferarri F-1 sebring 1983 decal set, or something like that. Then make it only available to people of legal age (18 years+ in the US) and labeled as a historically correct collectors item. I know monogram gets away with this on their beer, Viagra, and various other "sponsored by adult products" models.

I think it was revell that used to produce the beer wagon (ed roth style custom truck) and had to change their mold to say ROOT beer or something gay like that. Then they popped out a few "COLLECTORS ONLY" "MUST BE 18 TO PURCHASE" BEER WAGON kits.

Tobacco and Alcohol sponsored sporting/motor sporting is a thing of the past. I mean it used to be NASCAR/WINSTON CUP till a few years ago. What about the busch grand nationals.

I'm thinking that this is more a question of licensing rather than the advertising that is in question. I'm guessing that Malboro aren't getting a dime for those decals (infering that the decal producers don't have permission to use those logos) and as pointed out earlier, this is perfectly within their rights. It's just the way it is.

It's kind of a sad state of affairs really. But it's not just Phillip Morris who's putting the squeeze on modeler's.

Has anybody noticed that Tamiya's latest McLaren re-issues don't have any Goodyear markings. Or that Bosch is on the hunt.

The Marlboro issue (yeah..I'll use it..so sue me...go ahead :flipa: ), makes sense to me because of the anti-Tobacco treaty, especially here in the U.S., what with our tendency to have an itchy trigger finger when it comes to lawsuit. But it seems the other cases are just greed.

Are there any lawyers on these forum. I'm just wondering what the law is on something like this. I mean, all we're doing is making a scale replica of a licensed product that's already in the public domain. If McLaren allows Tamiya to produce a scale replica of their cars, doesn't that include everything that the original car had, include all markings and liveries. Isn't that part of the sponsorship agreement with the team, that as part of the sponsorship, the sponsor allows the team to use it's trademark.

What next, remove all historical references to tobacco in race cars? I can see it now, some needle nosed dweeb photoshopping every picture in existence of James Hunt's McLaren M23. :rolleyes:

You don't need a lawyer to understand this.
If you look at it purely on a contractural basis, these decal makers; the ones who are making products with the trademarked logos/images on them, do not have a contract (i.e are not licensed) to use those logos. Even when a car manufacturer gives license to a model company to produce a kit of their cars, that is just for the car. They don't have the right to give consent for the use of sponsorship logos because
i) that initial sponsorship is for the car, for the race for the contract period, which is normally for the period in which the car ran
ii) they (the car company) don't own the logos

That is where you are wrong regarding the whole issue of licensing and licensed products. The car is licensed; the images and logos are not. That's why you won't have
needle nosed dweeb photoshopping every picture in existence of James Hunt's McLaren M23.
That's also why you won't find them asking for previously released products that had those logos to be removed because at the time of production; they were licensed. What is being targeted now, are third party producers of logos. In this instance, it just happens to be a tabacco company. As you pointed out, it's not just tabacco logos that are being controlled.


I'll say it again; I don't think this is anything to do with the non-advertising of tabacco.

:shakehead i have to agree- it is a sorry state of affairs. i ani't no lawyer but when flicking through a 2004 gp ledgends catalouge they were making a great deal of fuss over seling 2 of senna's cars in full tobacco decals in diecast. this was because on 1st of july '04 new laws came though that ment baccy decals on model cars became illegal un the uk (not 100% sure though), so pm could be covering his own back - not to be seen as to not be doing anything about it. but why give up precious baccy advertiseing in brittan? i was going to get the early 90's ferrari name decals (mansell, prost etc.) but couldn't find them unfotunately, so i'll have to find some on ebay

:disappoin :angryfire :sadwavey: RIP acurate scale modeling :disappoin :angryfire :sadwavey:

Hmm, now that you mention it.....
That date was when ALL tobacco advertising was banned. Thing is, if that was the reason for the pulling of the product, I'd imagine it wouldn't be the logo owner going after you. Wouldn't it be the ASA or similar applying the pressure?

This sounds like a bit of a grey area to me. As mentioned in the post before mine, at the end of the day, licensed or not, the original "image" of the car, as it were, is already in the public domain. Does this qualify as advertising?

If it's purely to do with licensing, then I see scope for exploiting the wording of definitions of "personal use" and the whole thing about selling products with trademarked logos (much like they do at some bars are alcohol licensing).
If it's to do with the ban of tobacco advertising; then it seems like a grey area as to wether or not this is advertising.

I imagine that somewhere along the line, Marlboro will hold some liability if they don't enforce/control the use of their logos; hence them doing this.

I mean, all we're doing is making a scale replica of a licensed product that's already in the public domain. If McLaren allows Tamiya to produce a scale replica of their cars, doesn't that include everything that the original car had, include all markings and liveries. Isn't that part of the sponsorship agreement with the team, that as part of the sponsorship, the sponsor allows the team to use it's trademark.

Not at all. The license for a model of a McLaren car that Tamiya has allows only something similar to "the name McLaren, the McLaren logo(s), and the unique design of the McLaren MP4/XX".

Every other sponsor logo on that car can be included on the decal sheet (and box art) only if Tamiya has specific permission from that individual company.


This has nothing at all to do with Marlboro being a tobacco company, or with advertising prohibition. :disappoin If Coca-Cola decals were being sold, lawyers from the Coca-Cola company would issue a cease and desist in exactly the same way (just as soon as they found out about it).

This will happen again with other companies. Any oil company, tuner part company, and especially car manufacturer that catches wind of their logos being sold on unlicensed products will immediately do the same. 'Tolerance' of this kind of use ended about ten years ago- and it has nothing to do with screwing scale modelers. Corporations believe they simply cannot risk losing control of their names and logos.

I agree that this is indeed bad news, and depending on the motivation behind it could have huge impact on modelling. If the reason is the ban on tobacco advertising, then I guess we are on borrowed time for Rothmans, Benson & Hedges, Winfield etc. This is bad, but not as bad as a general crackdown on unlicensed logos - this will affect almost all aftermarket suppliers of decals.

On the side-topic of banned tobacco advertising affecting old photos etc, I have already seen this at the Australian GP. In the merchandising area there are a number of vendors selling prints of classic GP cars, as you would expect. On the displayed examples of these prints they must cover any tobacco advertising, be it on the car or on signs in the background, with masking tape, as this would be classed as "static advertising". At least if you bought the print the photo is un-altered - but for how long?

The local company Biante, producer of diecast models of Australian Touring Cars, had a long battle with the government to be allowed to produce historic race cars with the correct tobacco liveries, but to no avail.

so all of you do yourself a favor, get scans of decal sheets, and start printing your own decals for yourself NOW so you don't need to worry about if and/or when they will never be allowed in public sight!

oh, just so I'm on the same page as everyone else

I agree.... haha

I know we are a tiny group, and have no way to afford real influence, but I wonder if there would be a way to change public policy on this sort of thing? I would expect it motivated more by the rules against advertising than refusal to grant licensure. Perhaps if we mobilize as citizens of our respective representative governments, we could affect a change in the rules. Every day laws and regulations are changed and clarified; we're not asking much. Perhaps a small, clear loophole could be written into the law to allow for our accurate scale models and other facsimiles of historic motorsport subjects that are intended for private collection.

The local company Biante, producer of diecast models of Australian Touring Cars, had a long battle with the government to be allowed to produce historic race cars with the correct tobacco liveries, but to no avail.

We're having the same discussion over at F1M.com, and somebody mentioned that at McLaren HQ in Woking, all tobacco signage has been removed from ALL the cars, even those cars from before anti-tobacco legislation.

Again, it comes down to the belief that model cars and die-cast are considered toys, not adult collectables.

Fer chrissakes, if it isn't the Religious Right Wing Nutjobs telling me what I can and can't do in the privacy of my home, it's the Loony Liberal Left trying to protect me from myself. Unbelievable.

We're having the same discussion over at F1M.com, and somebody mentioned that at McLaren HQ in Woking, all tobacco signage has been removed from ALL the cars, even those cars from before anti-tobacco legislation.
I was told this on my recent visit to Donington Grand Prix Collection, glad I got some photo before they take them away for the repaint.

Marlboro is a brand and they're just protecting the brand that PM has created with billions of dollars over decades. They want to control what their brand is associated with. Plain and simple. The fact that they're a tobacco company/brand has no bearing in this case. We may be using it for model cars or whatnot but others can just as easily print and paste it on something rather un-Marlboro-like such as bras or panties or whatever the case may be. I don't think they're after modelers per se, just anyone who utilizes their brand without authorization.

The fact that they're a tobacco company/brand has no bearing in this case.
I am not so sure about that. I think it probably has a lot to do with it.

I guess the want to be seen to be taking positive action about enforcing bans on promoting tobacco products, otherwise they are leaving themselves exposed to possible further fines and litigation. As the copyright owners they are in the best position to take action in this area i.e. unlicensed usage of their logos.

Why not banning smoking sigarettes. We can have our decals up for sale again. (said the non-smoker :naughty: )

I find it all rather ridiculous: I see a 1/20 Ferrari F2001 with malboro in my room, O lets start smoking malboro...
(But I said that before with the same issue, with real racing. I see nearly every two-weeks a GP on telly from my 5th to now (22years old) with Malboro and those lovely McLarens with West livery. And never touched a bloody sigarette).

Why not banning smoking sigarettes. We can have our decals up for sale again. (said the non-smoker :naughty: )

I find it all rather ridiculous: I see a 1/20 Ferrari F2001 with malboro in my room, O lets start smoking malboro...
(But I said that before with the same issue, with real racing. I see nearly every two-weeks a GP on telly from my 5th to now (22years old) with Malboro and those lovely McLarens with West livery. And never touched a bloody sigarette).

same here, I got the same F1 car and a 1/43 Mclaren F1 GTR from renaissance that have Marlboro.

I have never picked a cigarette in my life and don't plan too, (waste of money)

I got the China, San Marino, and Brazil GP to make and they have the Barcode or Marlboro branding, am I allowed to post them on here :disappoin

I really can not be bothered with this whole thing (except for the fact that it's a waste of money for people like Hiroboy). First of all I never smoked their cigarettes - for some reason I just couldn't. And when they then pulled out at McLaren to go to Ferrari I decided I was never erver going to build a model carrying the Marlboro logo. :D

So, historically incorrect scale models? For sure not. The MP4/4 drove in Hockenheim and at Paul Ricard without the logo's and so on for every other year. One is perfectly capable of building an historical correct model withoth the Marlboro logo's. Besides, if you can't buy it, make it, no?

I started smoking WAY back when, and never was I infulenced to smoke by advertisement. Rather, it was peer pressure, and now that I'm 32 years old, I wish that I had never started in the first place. I also regeret ever being friends with some of those that pushed me into it.

As for historically correct builds, you cannot build a sunoco '69 camaro without the sunoco decals, otherwise it would just be a blue camaro with a bad @$$ engine. The history NEEDS to be preserved.

I just can't wait to see when playtex tampon company sponsors a F-1 car! hahaha!!

My argument is this- if these decals were indeed identified as a form of advertisement aimed at children, why didn't the tobacco watch groups take the initiative to contact those who are creating/distributing the logos rather than PM themselves? I would further argue that these after-market decals are not aimed for the mass audience classified as 'children' either.

Marlboro is a brand. One associates an image as well as a lifestyle with it. It cost PM alot of money to create this brand and does not want others utilizing it in a manner inconsistent with their vision of what Marlboro should represent. Look up 'Marlboro Friday' and you'll see why PM would want to protect this brand.

Put it differently, if someone took someone else's alias and utilized it on the same board, would you want to take action against them? You are basically taking away their 'brand' and identity away from them. You have an expectation or understanding of what this 'alias' is all about and anyone misrepresenting them would undo all the hard work you've put into building that 'brand'.

Does PM want Marlboro associated with specialty scale models? Doesn't look like it.

Just saw this thread. To be honest, I am not surprised. It is a matter, which would rear it's head sooner or later. As Steve said, it is impossible to know who has the permission to reproduce their logo's or not.

Steve, would you be able to get your money back for unsold stock? Otherwise, this will be really unfair on you!!

Steve:

Are you sure about the source of that e-mail requesting withdrawn? Couldn’t just be a kind of spam anti/tobacco campaign?
I just can not imagine PM calling or sending e-mails to every store/online store in the world, selling stuff with the logo on it, but spamers, they do.

I do not doubt PM be taking action to protect their logos, but the right thing to do would be addressing their claim directly to the manufacturer, then the manufacturer forward this to their distributors or recall the offending products.

It is strange...

http://www.hiroboy.com/images/marlboro-decals00.jpg

http://www.hiroboy.com/images/marlboro-decals01.jpg

Some details have been removed to protect us.
make of it what you will.
This will be removed shortly :)

I would call PM, Legal affairs dept. to check this info anyway, before withdrawing anything.

All this is, is Philip Morris making sure they are seen to be protecting their trademark. They don't really give a damn about Hiroboy selling their decals. But if some time down the track there should be a real problem with their trademark they can use letters such as the above to demonstrate their exercising ownership of their property.

It's all corporate bullshit and arrogantly US-centric. Quoting US legislation to a UK resident is small minded stupidity. But in the end Steve's actions are correct, quit giving them free publicity.

On a more practical note, for heavens sake make sure you don't lose any money by disposing of old stock Steve. If the lawyers give you a hassle, offer to sell them your old stock at cost plus postage and handling, otherwise keep selling them until current stocks are exhausted.

I didn’t see it this way, but yes, I think you’re totally right Phil !
I would follow Phil’s advice in regards of old stock.

I'm no lawyer, but having a quick squizz at the sections of the Lanham Act quoted they haven't a leg to stand on as far as common sense can be applied. Where is the confusion in selling decals that are designed for scale models that Marlboro did indeed sponsor? How is the Marlboro trademark being misrepresented by reproducing an historical fact?

The trademark is not being used as a brand to sell goods, it is the graphic design itself that is being sold under the manufacturer's own brand. Since I don't believe Philip Morris are in the business of printing aftermarket decals for racecars then how are they being damaged?

Perhaps they can demand licensing fees but given the precedent of them actually paying to have their trademark plastered on moving F1 billboards in the past, how can they now clam to be damaged by the same thing happening for free in scale?

Bastards, the sooner revolution comes and they go up against the wall the better.

Well, here's one in PM's eye :evillol:


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y247/klutz100/bk3.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y247/klutz100/bk1.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y247/klutz100/bk2_0.jpg

Now I feel like Burger King! LOL!

I think its crazy. Does anyone know how this will affect the companies selling Marlin Boron decals?

I started smoking WAY back when, and never was I infulenced to smoke by advertisement. Rather, it was peer pressure, and now that I'm 32 years old, I wish that I had never started in the first place. I also regeret ever being friends with some of those that pushed me into it.

As for historically correct builds, you cannot build a sunoco '69 camaro without the sunoco decals, otherwise it would just be a blue camaro with a bad @$$ engine. The history NEEDS to be preserved.

I just can't wait to see when playtex tampon company sponsors a F-1 car! hahaha!!
:1: but I started wayyyyy younger than you... I started in me mommy's tummy. Second hand all the way till peer pressure turned me into a first hand smoker.
I don't build models with any tabacco or alchohol markings. No particular reason. I just don't.
I do agree however on what you said about being historically correct. Hrm... tampon sponsered F-1...:lol: now there'ssss an idea :popcorn:

Well, here's one in PM's eye :evillol:


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y247/klutz100/bk3.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y247/klutz100/bk1.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y247/klutz100/bk2_0.jpg
where did you find them pics at?:spit: :rofl: :jump3: :chair:

http://www.hiroboy.com/images/marlboro-decals00.jpg

http://www.hiroboy.com/images/marlboro-decals01.jpg

Some details have been removed to protect us.
make of it what you will.
This will be removed shortly :)

I missed what these images were, but I have a hypothetical question that is completely unrelated to the Marlboro logos, brand or Phillip Morris in any way:

Could you sell me some "ro bo rl Ma" and red triangle decals? I could pick up a pair of decal scissors at the same time, I guess...

:smokin: