'95 LeSabre Odd Trans Problem

Hey guys,

I lurk here often and I find the threads here really helpful. I had an issue with my '95 today that's left me perplexed, so here's my first question on AF. . .

I have a '95 LeSabre Limited with 103,000 miles on it. I bought it from the original owner's estate about 4 months ago and can document the maintenance on the car since it was new. I have receipts for trans fluid changes at 25k, 50k, 70k, so I had a flush performed when I bought the car at 100k to keep with the regular changes.

Drove the car throughout the day today without issue. Went to put it in the garage tonight and although it shifted into drive, the car would barely move forward. Same issue in reverse, 1,2, and 3. I could hear the car shift into and out of gear though when I switched gears, so it wasn't an issue of the car physically not going into the specific gear. . .it just would barely move when in any gear.

Because it almost felt like there was a trailer attached or some kind of drag, I thought maybe I bumped the parking brake. It wasn't engaged, but I pulled both rear wheels just to make sure the brake wasn't engaged. Both drums and shoes seems ok and the brake was not engaged. While I had the car in the air, I inspected the front calipers and neither seemed to be hanging up either.

Brought the car down and experienced the same "drag" on my test drive in the driveway. Finally, nearly 3/4 down my driveway, I put the car in drive and gave it some rpm's. Again, it barely wanted to move forward when suddenly the tires chirped and the trans engaged. The movement came quickly, but I didn't notice any clunks other than the light chirp of the tires because the R's were around 3,000 or so. I took the car for a good ride and it drove perfectly the rest of the night, with several shut downs and start ups between errands. No codes are thrown.

What I'm trying to determine is: was this a freak thing on a well maintained trans that I shouldn't sweat OR did I experience something more serious that I should keep an eye on or do something about?

Fluid is dead clean (only 2k on it), filled properly, and the car leaks zero fluid. I do my own maintenance, but took the car in for the fluid flush since the receipts I had indicated full flushes in the past as well. Trans has not given any other problems previously.

Any thoughts are tremendously appreciated. Thanks.

Jeff

Just to add. . .after driving the car last night without problems, vehicle will not move again. I can definitely feel the trans engaging, but again, it's like the clutch is in a manual trans. I know now the trans needs service, but an extensive search of threads here hasn't really pinpointed my problem. If someone can help me diagnose this, I'd greatly appreciate it. THanks

Jeff

I'm sorry to hear about your tranny problem. I think that where you went wrong is getting it flushed. High milage trannies should not be flushed. Changing the fluid and/or filter is recommended on a high milage tranny but never a flush.

I don't know if it is too late or not at this point, but you might try some additives. Might have to pull some fluid out to make room for it.

I have a '97 Lesabre with 180,000 miles on it. It has the original engine and transmission. I changed the fluid once at about 100,000 (I think). When I changed it, I put in Slick 50 automatic transmission additive. It drips some, so I have to add fluid now and then. Around 150,000 miles, I dumped in 2 bottles of Lucas automatic transmission fluid additive. I tend to supplement with these types of additives. I ran a Ford Taurus up to 160,000+ miles with no transmission problems. The guy who bought it from me drove it for 2 more years before wrecking it. I knew one guy who put 2 transmissions in his Taurus.

Now that I think about it, my 97 Lesabre got kind of low on fluid once since it leaks some and it sort of acted like you are talking about. It would slip or not engage. Hope it works for you eventually.

Just wanted to follow-up. Car is going in for a rebuild on Monday. I dropped the pan, replaced filter, and added Lucas as a last ditch effort. . .results weren't any better.

On a side note, there was quite a bit of metallic sludge on the pan magnet. Do you really think that this last flush did it in? I too subscribe to the "don't flush a high mileage trans", but even one that's been maintained so well? I'm a backyard guy and have changed fluid a lot over the years, so getting it flushed wasn't a case of not being able to do it myself. . .but I thought on a well maintained car, a flush wouldn't hurt. . .guess I learned a lesson. Thanks

Jeff

I would bet you have a bad torque converter or front pump in the trans. Since the trans fluid had been changed on a regular basis, I don't think in this case it contributed to the issue. I think you just had bad luck and it went out.

The links below should make some interesting reading for a person in your situation. Beware of the National Franchise shops!

BTW, has anyone tested the trans line pressures? This sounds like internal fluid leakage, which could be detected with a pressure test.

Good Luck!


http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/0/257/RipOff0257245.htm

http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/0/263/RipOff0263954.htm

http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/0/206/RipOff0206488.htm

http://www.ripoffreport.com/searchresults.asp?q1=ALL&q2=&q3=&q4=&q5=&q7=&q6=Cottman&searchtype=

Interesting to read possible front pump failure in two replies, thanks for your thoughts. There is a solid trans shop here in the Milwaukee area and the guy there rebuilds T460's and 65's in his sleep. After describing my issue to him over the phone, his first response was "sure sounds like a possible pump issue." He's the kind of guy that will fix what needs fixing only. . .BUT, if he has to pull the trans to fix what's broken, why not just rebuild it at that point, no? I'm having it towed in on Monday, so we'll find out more then.

Again, I really appreciate the input. I'd love to blame the Penzoil shop who did the trans service, but I was there with them when they did the flush. No funny business, pretty straightforward procedure. And the amount of metal on the pan magnet makes me think this issue has been building over some time. I'm just so blown away that this tranny failed with such low mileage and detailed documentation. . .sometimes it happens that way.

Jeff

One other note, a fluid exchange without changing the filter is a recipe for disaster. The filter should be changed every 50k-75k miles. Teh filter exchanges DO NOT back flush the filter as claimed, as most use the transmisions own pump to feed fluid to and from the machine. If the guy doesn't know what he's doing running one of those machines, he can easily damage your trans. If the flow valves aren't balanced correctly, it can either run the pan out of fluid, or overfill it, causing damage to the trans, pump and/or torque converter.

Tidmack, I hope your transmission problem is minor and fixable. Best of luck
& keep us posted. :)

So THAT'S how a new trans. shifts! Got the car back on Friday from a reputable trans. shop in my area. Bob said a torn lip seal caused the torque converter to fail. He said in the years of doing T460's, he's seen a lot of these torn seals and suspects an inferior seal from the factory. He does not believe the fluid flush had anything to do with the failure and said it was bound to go at some point.

I was impressed with his knowledge of these tranny's. He showed me several typical wear/weak points in them and explained why/how those parts fail. I like that he also has fixes for those areas when he rebuilds a trans. In the lip seal case, he showed me the seal he uses and it has a noticable thicker edge to it. In another case, he uses a hardened steel part intead of the weaker factory replacement piece.

If anyone in the Milwaukee, WI area needs a trans rebuilt, don't hesitate to email me for Bob's number. He did a beefed up TH 350 for me about 12 years ago and it was just as nice.

Thanks for the help-

Jeff

Thanks for the feedback Jeff! I think you found a good transmission shop!:grinyes:

Yea, the inferior lip seals were redesigned and the new design has proven to be an effective cure for this problem. Usually, the symptoms you described, will give the first warnings during cold morning starts, before the transmission fluid warms up. When the old lip seals wear out they bypass fluid, which causes internal pressure drop.

I had a Buick with the 4T60E that I drove for five years with this problem, however, I never changed the fluid. I did add Lucas trans treatment.

New fluid has more detergents that react with the old seals and can cause premature failure. Here is a good thread on the subject:
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=656832