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What all can cause a car not to crank? 1997


happydog500
07-03-2007, 03:31 PM
I have a 97 that doesn't crank when you trun the key. The dash (idiot) lights come on but doesn't crank.

I noticed the lights don't go dim when turning the key (both Idiot and headlights).

I was already to get a starter but the guy told me if the starter was bad, when I turned the key, the lights should dim a little. He explained even if the starter is bad, when I turn the key, power should at least GO TO the starter.

I am wondering what all can cause a car not to crank?

1. Starter
2. The thing that signals it's in Park or Neutral
What else?

Thank you,
Chris.

maxwedge
07-03-2007, 03:50 PM
Basic diagnostics here, check for 12v at the solenoid for ign power when cranking. Does the security lite stay on during this event?

happydog500
07-03-2007, 05:22 PM
I noticed the security light was blinking. I tried a new key and it still didn't crank. Haven't tried to check the solenoid, car won't start to get it up the ramps (no six pack, just a keg) plus it's in the 90's.

If it has power, then what do I do? What if it doesn't? Thanks for the reply.
Chris.

imidazol97
07-04-2007, 12:04 PM
I noticed the security light was blinking. I tried a new key and it still didn't crank. Haven't tried to check the solenoid, car won't start to get it up the ramps (no six pack, just a keg) plus it's in the 90's.

If it has power, then what do I do? What if it doesn't? Thanks for the reply.
Chris.

If the security light is blinking, you have no power to the relay that enables the starter to crank.

The algorithm is you insert the key, the security light comes on when you turn the key to "on," and it should go out after about 10 seconds if it reads the right resistance from the key chip. If it doesn't get the right reading it will blink. If you try to start the car three times with the same key, it will lock out the start attempts for 3 minutes. This deters thieves from trying another key with a different resistance in it till they find the right one.

After three minutes the computer will look for a correct resistance.

Your key may have crud on the contacts. There may be problems with the contacts inside the opening of the lock cylinder that rub the contacts on your key. There may be breaks in the wires from the lock cylinder down to the base of the steering column where there's a plug. Some people use resistors from Radio Shack and put the right resistance down there instead of the wires going up to read the key when there's a broken wire.

Has your security light been going on while the car's running and then turning off again? Does it read right when you insert key as explained above.

Do I understand tht you tried a different key with a clean resistor chip?

happydog500
07-04-2007, 05:15 PM
The securety light blinks. I thought it did that when it was OK also. My frend came over and looked at it. He didn't get to check the solinoid or starter yet.

After doing some tests, he said he would almost bet for sure it was the Park/Nutural Position Switch.

My curse quit working last month and in my book it shows a "Multi-Function Lever" for the cruse and Position Switch, like there tied in with each other (another source doesn't however).

He is coming back later. How can we check the Position Switch?

maxwedge
07-04-2007, 06:22 PM
This is on the trans where the linkage goes into the trans case. I am not sure which wire is the one that require continuity, though. The lite should go of in seconds when the key is turned on, so be careful how you go about the diagnostics here.

Mickey#1
07-04-2007, 07:48 PM
Here's a wiring diagram that may help.
When the key is turned to the start position power is sent to terminal 30 of the Starter Enable relay & also to fuse 2E. From fuse 2E the power goes to the coil used to energize the Starter Enable relay & then through the Park/Neutral switch to the Vats Module which will complete the circuit by providing a ground.

In order for the starter solenoid to receive 12 volts:
Ignition switch must be good.
Fuse #2E must be good.
Starter Enable relay must be good.
Park/Neutral switch must be good.
& the Vats module must be working correctly & be able to read the resistance of the key pellet.


http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c120/BCGearhead/Wiring%20Diagrams/97Starting.jpg

happydog500
07-04-2007, 09:18 PM
Thank you for this. I will show him when (if) he comes back over later.

From a lay person, seems like testing the starter/silonoid to see if it has 12V. will narrow it down to.

Ignition switch
Fuse #2E
Starter Enable relay
Park/Neutral switch
Vats module

This doens't sound to good.

On this diagram it shows the Park/Neutral Position Switch to have two wires. Mine has a bunch. If I remember right, something like 6-10.

We tried to bypass the switch and blew a fuse.
He wants to jump the starter to see if it works.

Mickey#1
07-04-2007, 09:30 PM
When the key is turned to the run position the security light should turn off after about 5 seconds. Since yours is flashing this is most likely a Vats issue. Have you tried another key?

Edit - Yes, the key to narrowing this down is whether or not your getting 12 volts to the purple wire on the starter solenoid. Just connect a voltmeter or 12 volt light bulb between the purple wire & ground. Should show 12 volts or light the bulb when key is turned to start position.

happydog500
07-04-2007, 10:37 PM
OK, this is what we will try next. I've tried three different keys.

spinne1
07-05-2007, 12:28 AM
Thank you for this. I will show him when (if) he comes back over later.

From a lay person, seems like testing the starter/silonoid to see if it has 12V. will narrow it down to.

Ignition switch
Fuse #2E
Starter Enable relay
Park/Neutral switch
Vats module

This doens't sound to good.

On this diagram it shows the Park/Neutral Position Switch to have two wires. Mine has a bunch. If I remember right, something like 6-10.

We tried to bypass the switch and blew a fuse.
He wants to jump the starter to see if it works.

The reason you only see two wires on the diagram is because the diagram is only for that particular circuit. The park/neutral switch also functions in other circuits which are not shown. To figure out which wires are the ones in question, look at the diagram given and look at the colors of the wires, and also the letter code next to each wire. The "C1" stands for one of the two wiring harnesses, while the letters refer to positions in the wiring harnesses, which are marked somewhere on the harnesses themselves (but not every spot is always marked--sometimes just enough for you to be able to figure out what every spot is).

happydog500
07-05-2007, 08:06 PM
We checked for 12Volts at the solenoid. Only thing we got was sick from heat stroke. 108* and we where in the direct sun. Couldn't find the right sockets.

He checked the purple wire and it was lose. I thought it would fix it. Nothing tho. No volts.

Now what?

Thank you,
Chris.

Mickey#1
07-05-2007, 09:53 PM
Let's do the Vats bypass. Read the info in the following link before starting.
http://vats.likeabigdog.com/

All you have to do is locate the orange plastic sleeve with 2 fine white wires in it. Some years/models may be different colors. You'll find it coming down the steering column. Cut through the sleeve & wires where you can easily undo the bypass if you ever need to. Now all you have to do is connect resistors with the same resistance as your key pellet. Connect them to the end of the wires coming from the dash. You don't need to do anything with the wires coming down the column. Those wires have no power going to them.

If you can't get resistors tonight then you could just connect the wires with electrical tape to the metal tangs on each side of the pellet of one of your spare keys.

happydog500
07-06-2007, 11:34 AM
Is the next thing really to tear apart the dash/steering colum and cut wires? Right before I had problems I found the park/neutral safety switch unplugged. I thought it was the cruse control (witch quit working).

I plugged it back in and a week or two later I can't start it. What about checking the Safety Switch before cutting the wires under the dash?

spinne1
07-06-2007, 05:20 PM
Is the next thing really to tear apart the dash/steering colum and cut wires? Right before I had problems I found the park/neutral safety switch unplugged. I thought it was the cruse control (witch quit working).

I plugged it back in and a week or two later I can't start it. What about checking the Safety Switch before cutting the wires under the dash?

It's not as bad as it sounds, but in my case I did the bypass near the Pass Key Module, which is located on a 92 behind the glove box (not that difficult to remove) [97s may be different!]. Why did I do it this way? Two reasons. One, the little wires in the orange sleeve looked very delicate. Two, the wires on the box once exposed are much easier to access and also are thicker gauge wires and thus easier to mess with.

But I agree that your park/switch could need adjusting. First, loosen the two bolts holding it, then check the voltage to the starter solenoid while gently moving it clockwise and counterclockwise with the car in the start position. Do you ever get 12V? If you do, then set the position of the park switch by lining up a small groove in the center plastic around the shifter linkage connector with a similar small groove in the switch itself (use a flash light to see what I mean and by all means do it at dusk when it is only 95* or so!). It might work properly at this point making the bypass unnecessary. If you never get 12V, go ahead with the bypass.

Mickey#1
07-06-2007, 05:42 PM
The flashing security light is why I believe you need to do the bypass. Did you check fuse #2e? If the Vats module isn't getting power it might cause the security light to flash.

Here's another test you can try that'll rule out the Ign switch, starter relay & park/neutral switch.
Connect a wire to the starter solenoid wire that's long enough to reach the positive battery cable. Use a fairly heavy wire, like a lamp cord. Turn the key to the run position & then touch the other end of the wire to the positive battery terminal. The starter should work as long as you keep the wire connected. If the engine starts & runs normally then the problem is not with Vats because Vats also disables the fuel injectors.

Check fuse 2e before doing anything else.

happydog500
07-06-2007, 07:31 PM
If the engine starts & runs normally then the problem is not with Vats because Vats also disables the fuel injectors.

Check fuse 2e before doing anything else.

I was going to post something and read this. One thing I do hear is the injectors when I turn the key. At least I think that's what I hear. I didn't hear "anything" but we had the hood up last night.

*****

Seems like the VATS Wire Test thing only checks the VATS. "If it starts, it's the VATS Reader. If not, it's the VATS Module".
If it's not in the VATS, the cutting wires test doesn't tell me anything.

Example, lets say it's the starter (starter is just an example) if I do the VATS Wire Cutting test, it won't start (since starter won't work). This test assumes it automatically has to be the reader.

Another question. The link says,
"13. Install a male bullet connector to one of the 2 wires, and a female on the other.

14. Plug in your "resistor pack" that you made by mating the male and female bullet connectors."

It says there is two wires. When I cut them, this means I now have 4 wire ends. What ends to I connect to each other, since I now have 4 wire ends and two resistor ends?

Not only that, but it also says, "strip back the insulation on the wires on the opposite side of the steering column."

If I cut the wires, what wires are these on "the opposite side of the steering column." Why does he say this stuff so confusing if it's so easy?

Also, before I left for a trip, I checked the Park safety switch thinking it was my cruse. It was unplugged. How could my car of been starting with the Switched unplugged?

I will go check 2E now.

Thanks for the input. Be back. Chris.

happydog500
07-06-2007, 07:36 PM
Connect a wire to the starter solenoid wire that's long enough to reach the positive battery cable.


Oh my god, I have to take the plastic cover piece off again?

spinne1
07-06-2007, 08:41 PM
Oh my god, I have to take the plastic cover piece off again?

No, there is no plastic cover over the starter solenoid. The starter has only two wires going to it. One is huge and is from the positive battery terminal. The other is smaller and is from the park/neutral switch. The park/neutral switch is the last part of a line of devices that controls your car's starting. It starts at your ignition switch where you insert the key, goes to your VATS module, your starter enable relay, your PCM, and your park/neutral switch (not sure of the exact order off the top of my head).

The wire you want to test is the small one on the starter. If you jack the front of the car up and put it on jack stands you can look at the starter and see where the wires connect to the starter. You want to put a jumper wire on the smaller of the two wires right where it connects to the starter (use a jumper wire with alligator clips). Take the other end and touch it to the positive terminal of the battery (just touch it for a moment, don't clip it or leave it connected!). Your starter should engage and turn the engine over.

Now, as to the bypass, if you choose to do it with the underdash/steering column wires, what you are doing is bypassing the resister reader that is built into your ignition switch. The two small wires in white insulation come directly from each side of the ignition switch where your key's resister is read to see if your car is okay to start. Yes, when you cut it you will have four wires. Two of them lead up the steering column towards the ignition switch. You do not want to do anything with these two as they will in essence go nowhere once you cut them (except to the key resister reader in the ignition switch). The other two ends going away from the ignition switch are the two to solder the resister(s) to. Why? Because these two wires lead to the VATS module. If the resistance between these wires is the right amount for your VATS module, the VATS module thinks there is a correct key in the ignition switch and will allow your injectors to fire and also your car to crank. Therefore, if you use these wires ignore the ones going up the column and use the ones going down the column (but I still say do it via the wires closer to the VATS module behind the glove box---unless the VATS module is in a different spot on a 92 versus a 97).

And yes, there is no guarantee that bypassing the VATS will fix the problem. I have been fooled into false diagnoses a time or two.

happydog500
07-06-2007, 09:02 PM
The plastic thing I was talking about was the cover that goes on the bottom of the front of the car. It covers the whole front end. We couldn't see the wires until we got it off.

I will do the test I think. I called a friend who has a lesabre. It's a 92. His Security light blinks a few times then goes out. Mine keeps blinking. Seems like it could be it.

spinne1
07-06-2007, 09:16 PM
The plastic thing I was talking about was the cover that goes on the bottom of the front of the car. It covers the whole front end. We couldn't see the wires until we got it off.

I will do the test I think. I called a friend who has a lesabre. It's a 92. His Security light blinks a few times then goes out. Mine keeps blinking. Seems like it could be it.

More than likely you can do the test from above without removing anything. Just reach down toward the starter with an alligator clip in your hand ready to go. When you reach the starter, find the back where the wires hook up and hook the clip to the small post (an 8mm nut holds the wire on on a 92). Then touch the other end to the positive battery terminal. NEVER hook the battery up first. Why? There is a great chance you will hit ground with the clip and you don't want to do that.

Mickey#1
07-06-2007, 09:25 PM
We're over thinking this. Have you checked fuse 2E?

happydog500
07-06-2007, 09:56 PM
Yes, 2E is good.

Mickey#1
07-06-2007, 10:56 PM
Cut the wires.
Strip 1/4 of insulation off the wires that go to the module.
Take a spare key & hold the wires to the contacts on each side of the key.
Start the engine.

Shouldn't take 10 minutes.

happydog500
07-07-2007, 12:49 AM
Starts right up!!

Those wires are small.

What do I need to do for a permanent fix? Does the VATS reader come with a ignition cylinder? Or is is a separate item? Thanks for the help.
Chris.

Mickey#1
07-07-2007, 08:53 AM
Great news! If I recall correctly once it starts you can disconnect the wires from the spare key & still be able to start the engine. The downside is the security light will always be flashing, this will drive you crazy at night.

If you don't mind the security system being disabled then just solder in resistor(s) with the same resistance as the key pellet. Buying the resistors at Radio Shack should only cost $1 or $2. If you don't have a soldering gun any shop that installs remote starters should be able to do this & not charge you a small fortune.

If you want the security system to work then you'll need to replace the ignition lock cylinder. I believe the cylinders that local auto part stores sell come with a key that doesn't have the resistor pellet. You'll need to go a dealer or locksmith & get a key blank with the same pellet as the original key & have that blank cut to match the new key. My guess is a couple new keys & lock cylinder will cost over $100. If you install it yourself you'll need a manual & steering wheel puller. Makes the bypass look better & better doesn't it?

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