2001 Intrigue 3.5 engine

What should the fuel pump preasure be on this car.

I couldnt find the exact numbers, it seems like I once posted them but I couldnt find it.

Should be in the high 30s to low-mid 40s, thats pretty well considered normal.

We have had a lot of trouble getting this car to start. It will crank and crank before it will start,if it starts at all. Replaced the CKS today and the car started,but had no power on hills just kept slowing down like it wasn't getting enough gas to pull. Checked the fuel preasure with the engine running it ran at 36 lbs. Have any ideal what other problem we should look for.

That does seem a shade low, what sort of gauge were you using? Im asking because low quality gauges will often give inaccurate numbers.

After you turn the car off do you smell gas at all? Check the vacuum hose that goes to the Fuel Pressure Regulator for fuel, if there is fuel in that line the FPR is defective. Also check your pressure readings with that same vacuum hose connected and disconnected. Pressure should get higher with the hose disconnected. If the swing is very large 7-8 PSI, you might try changing out the FPR, although that brings me back to my original point of making sure youre using a quality gauge.

With those lower readings, start simple by changing out the fuel filter if you havent already.

Also Im just curious, did you get a check engine code for the CKPS? Because I have been having trouble with mine starting right lately. It will fire, but run very poorly unless you give it a little gas, usually it starts then dies, then you have to crank it again a little longer than normal and it will start and run fine. Im just asking for my own benefit, because im considering replacing that sensor.

I am using a Actron 100 lb fuel testing gauge. I chacked the fpr today no gas in the vacuum line to the fpr. Didn't smell any gas. When we had the code scanner plugged it coded that there was no signal coming from the cks that is why we replaced it. The car wouldn't start untill we replaced cks. My daughter just called and said that it wouldn't start now. Cleaned the throtle boby also. Put new ac plugs in it,new fuel filter and new air filter.

Littlehoov - your symptoms sound exactly like a FPR

For what it's worth, page 6-876 of the manual says fuel pressure (engine off, but pump running) should be 48 - 55. However, on page 6-884 it says 41 - 47. It also mentions the fuel pressure would be 3 to 10 lbs less when vacuum is applied to the FPR.

AllData also says 41 - 47 (engine off, fuel pump running). This makes me think your fuel system might be OK.

Maybe your loss of power is related to a restricted exhaust and/or plugged cat converter? Is it possible that it may have an intake gasket / internal coolant leak problem? Check for engine coolant and engine oil possibly mixing somehow. Check for oil in the coolant or coolant in the oil. When it does start, does it idle well? Is a 'check engine' light on? How many miles on this car?

The engine idles well when it starts, It has 96,000 miles on it. There was one other thing that happened yesterday when i took the throtle body off of the car to clean it. When i loosened the nuts on the throtle body and began to remove it gas sprayed from around the bottom of the throtle body and stood on the back of the transmission seem like quiet abit of gas to me. I don't know but this didn't seem normal to me for gas to be coming out from around the throtle body. I might be wrong but i throught that air is what went through the throttle body. I forgot about this happening until this morning. When it start misfireing the service soon engine light will flash and come on. Had that checked too multibles misfires is all that coded. Haven't found any coolant leaks. The oil is fine no coolant in the oil.

only air flow and coolant - to my knowledge, go thru the throttle body. Maybe the FPR may have vented thru the vacuum line attached to the throttle body? Just a guess?

If it was my car I would think about pulling the plugs again after the engine has completed a run cycle and 'read' the spark plugs. maybe you could tell if 1 or more is black - indicating overly rich. Maybe check compression while they are out.

The car won't start again. When i pulled the throtle body i didn't see any coolant just fuel running out. I will pull the plugs again and see if they are wet with fuel. The FPR only had one vacuum line on it that i could see. Is the FPR the only way that fuel can get into the air intake?

my daughter had a 98 with the 3.8 motor that had an injector stick wide open. I think you'd smell or see fuel before long. It even filled the exhaust with fuel. The way I found it was when doing a compression check and cranking the motor it was blowing fuel out the spark plug hole.

Be careful when playing with open fuel system, have a fire extinguisher handy.
maybe it's possible the FPR is intermittently feeding the intake with fuel thru the vacuum line??

Went back out to my daughter's today,pulled the plugs out and all of them were black and dripping with fuel. Did a compression test and the cylinders were running about 180 lbs. Drid the plugs and reinstalled them the engine started to hit then it started and ran for a few minutes. Then it died and wouldn't just hit ever now and then just like it was flooded. You could smell raw fuel under the hood. Seems like it is getting to much fuel. What do think?

I think I'd be looking for a stuck wide open injector(s), or possible fuel pressure regulator leaking into the vacuum line - dry off the plugs again, and start it with the vacuum line for FPR removed.

I've had to pull fuel rails off certain cars with injectors installed to see what the injectors are doing during cranking, and/or when pump is energized.

Use caution when doing these types of tests!

How can i tell if the injectors are open. Today when i did the compression test it was blowing fuel out of the cylinders. I have the FPR ordered from rock auto so i will replace it when it comes in. I still haven't figured out where the fuel came from when i took the throtle body off. Ther is a switch or regulator right behind the throtle body on the intake manifold on the firewall side of the car set right in front of the FPR. When you turn the key on sounds fuel running throuh this switch or regulator it has a fuel line attached to it and has a electrical plug also. Have ant ideal what this. I will dry the plugs off and try to start it with the vacuum line disconnected from the FPR and see what happens.

I've done this on VW jettas and not an Intrigue. But what I did was pull the fuel rail loose from the intake leaving all the injectors and wiring and fuel lines attached to the rail. I would move the assembly away from the intake enough to visually inspect the injector spray.

First, I would power up the pump with the engine off. If you have one spray at that time it is probably stuck open. I have also cranked the motor when looking at the injectors to make sure all of them have an equal, pulsing type of spray.

Be very careful when doing this because the atomized spray can easily catch fire from a hot manifold or ignition spark from a coil, wire, or plug. It would be very easy to burn yourself, your car, or your garage/house!!!!

I'm wondering if a bad PCM could make the fuel system dump fuel into the engine via the injectors? Any GM techs out there seen this?

I'll will check the injectors and be very careful while doing this. I think that there is enough room to pick it up and get the fuel rails away from the intake. When you say power up the pump does this mean just turn the key on and don't crank the engine. Then crank the engine over and watch the spray from each injector to see if each injector has equal pulsing spray.

I think on this model turning the key on will run the pump for approx 2 seconds. Cranking the car will run the pump until the vehicle starts, or until you let off the key. Look for a pulsating, metered mist of fuel. If one or more is stuck open it will be more like a balls-to-the-wall heavy spray. By the way, is it possible that you have the FPR mixed up with the AIR vacuum solenoid on the rear valve cover? I have a pic if you want me to post it.

The thing that i am talking about looks like a regulator of some type,it has a fuel line connected to it, a electral connection on it,it also bolt to the intake manifold just behind the throtle body adapter on the firewall side of the engine. The FPR sets about 2 inches behind this thing on the fuel rail on the firewall side of engine. The fuel line that runs from this goes back toward the tank with the fuel supply line and the return from the fuel rails. If you want to post the picture of the air vacuum solenoid i sure would appricate it. Can't find a Haynes repair manual for this car any place. We bought the Cd that Chilton has but it wasn't much help.

The part youre describing sounds like the EGR valve, is it black? kinda....maybe a similar shape to a can, round on the sides, flatter on top. I think thats what youre describing, as thats the only thing in that area that has an electrical connection. That should have nothing to do with a fueling issue though.

Dont quote me on this, but you should be able to at least verify that the injectors are pulsing properly without having to pull the fuel rail. I think you can use a test light to verify the pulsing of the electrical signal.

Yes it is black and is round and it does have a flat place on it, i believe it is on the top. Is that a fuel line attached to it or a vacuum line. The sticker on the line says fuel for some reason. It probably is the EGR valve.

Even though the injector electrical voltage is ok and working properly the injector can still be stuck open and dumping fuel. Here's a photo of the FPR and AIR valve.

If you can't ID the part email me a picture.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y158/kmohr3/intrigue_motor.jpg

The part that i was talking is in your picture,it sets just to the right of the FPR you can see the line that connect to it under i guess a breather pipe that comes from the valve pan cover. The vaccum line that connect to the FPR comes across this part at the bottom next to a fuel line connecting the fuel rails. Thank for the pictures,looks just like our engine. Hope we can get this engine to start. Went back out put scanner on it, it don't code anything, i guess that is what is making this hard to figure out.

OK, I know exactly what part you are talking about. It's the EVAP cannister purge valve. It opens under certain conditions and lets the Evaporative Emmission Cannister vent (vapors) back into the intake. It's kind of buried in between the FPR and the EGR valve. It shouldn't have any bearing on why you're getting excess raw fuel dumped into your engine, though. It's #3 in the drawing below.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y158/kmohr3/EVAP.jpg

That is the part that i was talking about. Where is the EGR valve on this engine? We haven't been able to get pictures of anything on this engine. Can you think of anything else that might cause the raw fuel to get into the air intake besides the FPR. As it don't code anything when hooked to a code scanner. Thank for the pictures they are a big help.

The EGR valve is just to the left of the #3 part shown in the picture above. Its the somewhat canister looking thing that has the fuel line brackets wrapping around it.

Thank you LittleHoov for the imformation.

Haven't had time today to work on the car still trying to figure out where the fuel in the air intake is coming from. The intake manifold on this engine is made out of some kind of plastic or something will stand a lot of heat. Read some where that G.M was having some problems with this type of manifold.

I really haven't heard of intake manifold problems with 3.5 liter yet.

Thanks for the info. Don't really need any more trouble right now.

Have you gotten the chance to try running it with the FPR disconnected? See if it will stay running like that.

Also be sure that if you are removing the fuel rail and etc to test to injectors, that you do so on a cold engine. I know thats kind of a "duh" statement, but it doesnt hurt to say it again.

If you want extreme safety overkill, you can go ahead and disable the ignition system of the vehicle by pulling relay #13 from the underhood fusebox. The car will still crank, but it will have no spark.

Im having trouble wrapping my mind around the idea of one or two stuck injectors causing all 6 cylinders to run rich, but I guess its possible. Try the FPR first though, especially since you already ordered one.

I haven't gotten a chance to try start the the car with the vacuum line disconnected from the FPR yet. Didn't get back out to my daughter's yet. The spark plugs were what was black and very wet with fuel. We just put the plugs in the car. They were A.C. delco plugs the same number that came out of the car. I saw the relay that you were talking about. Thank i will let you know what happens.

Have your daughter looks at the pics posted in this thread and have her pull the vacuum line. Itd be easy for her. She might even learn somethin, plus it would save you a trip out there.

I had a new FPR ordered and it just came in. I'll try and get it put on sometime today. It is made by Standard and the part number is PR223.

The SHOP MANUAL on the 1998 Intrigue with 3.8 engine says that the fuel pressure should be 48 to 55 psi. I assume the 3.5 engine would be the same.

Found out what the problem was with the car. It had some ground wires loose,and had the fire shout off. Thanks for all the help fellows.

P.S. tha mass air flow sensor was out too.

What would be a good obd 2 code scanner to buy?

I have the Actron CP945. It was around $200 when I bought it a couple of years ago.