Alignments

Just for all of you, who wonder, should I get an allignment or not after lowering, or any other suspension mods. Well some will argue, that some drops don't effect the camber, or toe. So you don't need to get one.

Lowering the car does the following
1.)creates more negative camber
2.)Can change your toe angle (usually toe in)
Putting on a wider tread width tire on (195 to 205) will
1.)Change Toe angles

Now there is a specified range for these readings.
Such as the Civic for example
Front camber can be from +1 degree to -1 degree
Rear camber can be from 0 degree to -2 degrees
So who knows what the factory reading were?
What if they were on the borderline lets say the front camber was at
-.8 degree, that would mean lowering it a fraction, 1", would put it over
-1 degree. Then on the other hand is could work to your advantage.
But usually your toe is messed up to which can cause very odd handling problems, and is harder to notice.
So I hope you can see my point.
So when the alignment guy asks what settings you want, you would normally say
"within factory specs"
Well for all you Civic riders here is a modified range, something I did not have when I did my alignment.

Front Camber/TOE Range for modified suspension
Front Camber(in degrees)
Range (-1.8 degrees to 0 degree) the 0 setting will offer longer tire life
Front Toe
Range (-0.02 to 0.08)

Rear Camber/TOE Range for modified suspension
Rear Camber(in degrees)
Range (-2.0 to -.5)(Tire wear is a consideration when more negative camber is added
Rear Toe
Range (0.04 degrees to 0.15)
So the point? At least have your alignment checked after suspension mods. These ranges have been created for the tuner who wants a balance of performance and practicality. These setting are also for the autoXer not for people slamming their car 4". Feel free to ask questions.
:)

i am about to install eibach sportsline springs with kyb shocks on my 92 accord. i was wondering if i need to put on camber plates so i wont ruin my tires. it seems exsessive since i wont be racing or adjusting my camber at all, it would just be to keep the stock measurements. any opinions would be appreciated

Find a camber kit you want, decide on one and a place to get it.
By a kit for the front and rear, make sure it can be returned, uif not used.
Get your parts installed, and see if they are able to align it to those specs. Most Hondas a quite adjustable in the front but the rear can cause problems. If they can get it to your satisfaction, return the kits, if not then you are prepared. I don't think you'll need them, but every car is different. Just be prepared!

Every Honda/Acura needs a camber kit when lowered more than an inch. Most springs out there will lower a Honda close to two inchs. I've worked with Accords, Preludes, Civics, and Integras. I've done the lowering of these cars myself. I have an integra and installing camber kits with an alignment. It save me from buying two extra sets of tires a year (i know this because I drove my car without camber kits). In fact it made my one set of tires last two years. I think I could still get another year off of the tires. I also drive my car hard around corners and the tires are still not worn out. 4 tires usually cost about $200-$800 depending on your tire size. A camber kit will easily cost you less than $300. You only need to make this purchase once. I saved my self $800 for not buying 4 extra sets of tires (i'm running on stock 14" wheels). If I had 17" wheels I would have saved $2000 if 4 tires cost $500 with mounting and balancing. Could you image all of the things you can buy for your car for $2000. Even if you don't get a camber kit, you still need to align your car when you lower it, regardless of how low.

:frog:

Well here's my 2 cents. I've been dropped about 2 inches for almost a year now. I never got an alignment or camber kit. So how's my car doing? Well, my tyre wear is even, no problems there, maybe it's just cos your roads over there are so straight? And as far as getting an alignment, the car steered fine when I dropped it so I didn't bother. Maybe I just got lucky?

My brother had a 96 civic. Lowered it 2 inches. The tires got fucked. They were all worn out on the inside after a year. The alignment is needed to correct the toe, not just to make the car go straight. Of course the car will still steer straight after the alignment, but the toe is out of wack. You're probably have not experienced any abnormal tire wear because you have been driving on mostly dirt or wet roads.

Originally posted by TheMasterG
Well here's my 2 cents. I've been dropped about 2 inches for almost a year now. I never got an alignment or camber kit. So how's my car doing? Well, my tyre wear is even, no problems there, maybe it's just cos your roads over there are so straight? And as far as getting an alignment, the car steered fine when I dropped it so I didn't bother. Maybe I just got lucky?
You could be one of those people who made out well, but I bet if you went to get it checked, they would tell you at least your toe is off.
But that is why everyone is different, I still recommend at the very least having it checked, maybe you sould do that for kicks and post up your specs?

I agree with you, if I got it checked they would probably tell me it's off slightly but I've got no problems with tyre wear or steering/tracking so why should I waste money on something like that. It handles beautifully and so I'll carry on the way I am. And no, I don't always drive on dirt roads, we ain't that backward here you know! Same thing goes for the wet, it doesn't rain all the time here contrary to popular belief ;)

Edit: Ps. Nobody in Europe gets camber kits and most haven't heard of them, seems to me it's a US only thing, probably because of your long straight roads. And excessive tyre wear isn't a problem here either :confused:

well I think it is more of an issue because people over here slam their shit like they were on a sled, so, to correct these drops (most excessive) they have no choice.

I myself on the other hand, have seen what can be done having the abilty to completely adjust your suspension, you would not believe most hondas are capable of. So yes I am performance minded in that regards, that is where I come from, but also understand that most people could care less. If it works and your tires are fine, bless you! ;)

I never said I didn't care and I am performance minded like yourself. If I didn't I wouldn't have spent a fortune on KONI true coilovers(adjustable ride and height). What I am saying is that I've had no adverse affects from lowering it, if it ain't broke why fix it? And we slam our rides in Europe as much as you guys but from what I've read you guys recommend camber kits if you're dropped more than 1.75", not exactly slammed.

Don't you guys in Ireland use metric? You said two inches, rather than 50mm. It could be the road that is making the difference. It seems like the only difference. As for every lowered Honda in California, they all seem to get bad tire wear if not correctly aligned (toe and camber). At least get the alignment even if the tire wear is not evident. You want your car to be at least up to specs so it handles the way it's suppose to handle. Most lowered cars inherit a positive tow when lowered. Positive toe in the rear made my car fishtail. Honda's usually have a slight negative toe as well as camber in the rear, and an almost neutral toe and camber in the front.

Yep we use metric, but I said inches so as not to confuse you yanks ;)
And I think it's the roads that make a difference, we don't get too many straight runs, winding roads everywhere.
And as for the alignment, I'll be getting it after my engine swap, as I'll be racing it then and want everything spot on :cool:

Originally posted by TheMasterG
I never said I didn't care and I am performance minded like yourself. If I didn't I wouldn't have spent a fortune on KONI true coilovers(adjustable ride and height). What I am saying is that I've had no adverse affects from lowering it, if it ain't broke why fix it? And we slam our rides in Europe as much as you guys but from what I've read you guys recommend camber kits if you're dropped more than 1.75", not exactly slammed.
I did not mean you persue, just as you said if it aint broke don't fix it :)

Originally posted by Dezoris
well I think it is more of an issue because people over here slam their shit like they were on a sled, so, to correct these drops (most excessive) they have no choice.

I myself on the other hand, have seen what can be done having the abilty to completely adjust your suspension, you would not believe most hondas are capable of. So yes I am performance minded in that regards, that is where I come from, but also understand that most people could care less. If it works and your tires are fine, bless you! ;)
Well, I´m from germany and most germans love their car more than anything else! We have a lot of phat Beamers, Golfs, Mercedes, Porsches (and of course Hondas while they aren´t that common) and stuff like that which are also slammed to the ground without a camber kit. I´m using Konis on my current ride and handling is very good and tire wear is not a big problem for me neither. Nearly anybody knows what a camber kit is over here, too!

Originally posted by Veetec

Well, I´m from germany and most germans love their car more than anything else! We have a lot of phat Beamers, Golfs, Mercedes, Porsches (and of course Hondas while they aren´t that common) and stuff like that which are also slammed to the ground without a camber kit. I´m using Konis on my current ride and handling is very good and tire wear is not a big problem for me neither. Nearly anybody knows what a camber kit is over here, too!
Statement retracted, I have no clue then, there is more of an emphasis, on maintaining factory alignments, here? Or people like me harping it :)

I hear a lot of people saying they are ok, what does that mean?
You are saying it rides fine, my point is your alignment specs are off.
But I know I am just repeating myself sorry.

That's right, regardless of tire wear, or handling quality; you should have your suspension up to specs. Ask anyone that does any racing and they will tell you that suspension/alignment tuning is key. So, if you're serious about the springs and shocks you put in your car, shouldn't you also care about your alignment?

Originally posted by Dezoris

Statement retracted, I have no clue then, there is more of an emphasis, on maintaining factory alignments, here? Or people like me harping it :)

I hear a lot of people saying they are ok, what does that mean?
You are saying it rides fine, my point is your alignment specs are off.
But I know I am just repeating myself sorry.

I don't think people are harping you, Dezoris. It's just that the only time we hear about camber kits is from our american friends. I myself am running 50mm lower than stock with no problems. You will also hear of people in europe running 80mm lower and no mention of camber kits.

The great thing about forums like this is that we can learn from people on differents sides of the world what set-ups we use and any myths associated with them.

Darren

Originally posted by ToadBoy
That's right, regardless of tire wear, or handling quality; you should have your suspension up to specs. Ask anyone that does any racing and they will tell you that suspension/alignment tuning is key. So, if you're serious about the springs and shocks you put in your car, shouldn't you also care about your alignment?
But why? If the car handles well, has good tyre wear, rides well and has no noticable tracking problems then why should someone get an alignment just to get some numbers in the correct range? Is there something else that I'm not thinking of that an alignment affects?
I'm sure racers do say that alignments are key but if the numbers are slightly off but you've no problems then what's the difference?
If there is a valid reason that I don't know of I'd like to know and I'd gladly get an alignment. But getting one "because it can't hurt" isn't much of a reason.

:silly:

Hi people. I was reading this alignment post and I need some extra info...You guys were talking about TOE and i'm not exactly sure what that is. I know the camber is related to how much your tires tuck, etc. How does the whole alignment thing work? What do they do and what does it do to the car? I dropped my car with ground control coil overs about two months ago. The ride is still great on the stock shocks even though i am going to go with koni yellows when my shocks blow. My problem is that when i got 70+mph on the highway my car starts to shake alot. I was wondering if i need an alignment or balancing? For them to do that i would need to raise my car, since the things that lift up the car dont fit under my car. After they do the balancing and alignment wont it get messed up when i take the tires off and lower my car back to where it was? what can i do?.... :confused:

If the shaking you're feeling is coming back through the steering wheel then you need to get the wheels balanced. The height of the car doesn't affect the wheel balancing as they take the wheels off to do it.
If the car pulls to either side of the road when you're driving(say you take you hands of the wheel for a couple of secs) then you need an alignment to correct the tracking. You should have the car at the height that you'll be driving at when you get the alignment done or else there's no point. If they can't get the lift to fit under the car then put some planks of wood or something down on the ground to drive up on and it should give you the clearance you need.
HTH, G :silly:

You can't just rely on the "seat of the pants" experience in driving to say that it's fine. You don't know that until you're running time trials. Sure you don't race your car on the streets all of the time, but what if you had to do an emergency maneuver? Ever bit makes a difference. Even an inch of not hitting something, or hitting something an inch less. If you think your car drives fine, then good for you. I'm concern about getting the most out of my suspension/tires, and that would mean proper alignment. You can't argue that. So, f*ck the "seat of the pants" calculations because you wouldn't want your ass doing all of the talking, would you?

Thanks for the advice. Yea the shaking comes from the steering wheel so I need to balance my tires and I wasnt sure if taking off the tired and raising or lowering my car would affect the alignment. But thanks for the info it was very useful. Now i need to find a way to get on the lift so they can align my wheels. lol. thanks guys!
-iLLuCiv

True, at least now I have a valid reason to get it done.
I'll wait til I drop my engine in cos when that's done I'm gonna race it :)

I guess you didn't read TheMasterG's post very well. He said to ride on top of some wood planks. Get some that are about 1.5" high. That's what I need to do to get my car on the lift/rack and to get a floor jack under it.

Originally posted by TheMasterG

But why? If the car handles well, has good tyre wear, rides well and has no noticable tracking problems then why should someone get an alignment just to get some numbers in the correct range? Is there something else that I'm not thinking of that an alignment affects?
I'm sure racers do say that alignments are key but if the numbers are slightly off but you've no problems then what's the difference?
If there is a valid reason that I don't know of I'd like to know and I'd gladly get an alignment. But getting one "because it can't hurt" isn't much of a reason.

:silly:

The real reason to get an alignment is to make sure your wheel angles are within factory spec. The point of my post was to give an alternative a tighter range, within factory spec to get the most out of your tires, in the way of grip.

Whether you realize it or not, there is a big difference in performance of your tires based on your camber and toe angles, so much so that just
.5 of a degree, namely in front camber, can make your car feel totally different when your suspension is at the limit. The goal is more grip, how can you get more? If you don't have suspension mods, then tires are the nest best thing, if you have both then the next step to tweaking is an alignment, no maximize your tire angles to lay down the most contact patch of the tire under hard cornering. Then if you have a completely adjustable suspension,(ride height) you have the car corner weighed. Which is placing a scale under each wheel, and raising and lower the car on each wheel to achieve an even weight.

Sounds pretty crazy right? It is all apart of fully tuning a suspension.

Q.Why get an alignment to factory specs?
A. To ensure proper tire wear, and to assure the vehicle is safe to drive under emergency proceedures, and manageable under hard conditions.

Q.What could be unsafe about not having an alignment

A.If a vehicles toe angles are off
http://www.dezoris.com/TOEIN.jpg
http://www.dezoris.com/TOEOUT2.jpg
This can cause the wheels to follow different paths on the road surfaces, reducing grip, and making emergency handling, difficult to manuever.
As well as camber.

Q.So what are the benefits of the alignment specs posted here

A. To get the most out of the alignment process and to tighten the factory range while maintaining tire wear and increasing performance by getting the most grip or allowing the tires contact patch to more adequetly mate with the road

Questions please?

Originally posted by TheMasterG
True, at least now I have a valid reason to get it done.
I'll wait til I drop my engine in cos when that's done I'm gonna race it :)


screw alignment... you wouldnt notice it after your second breakfast beer anyways :D

Originally posted by drift



screw alignment... you wouldnt notice it after your second breakfast beer anyways :D
Hey I think i heard that reponse from somewhere before?

I think I've seen it on www.grassroot.com

Do you think he should give credit to that person? Plagiarism?


:frog: