The cars of old

Whatever happened to the days of the '66 GTO, the 69 Camaro, the hemi cuda's, the chevelle's, the Mustang Fastbacks, the 79 Z28 camaro, the 69 Monte Carlo, and all the great muscle cars that used to stand out from the VW's and the fastly growing import market. I'll tell you what happened.. GM, Ford, Dodge, they all went to hell in a breadbasket... With the dissapointment of the Monte Carlo SS not being fast enough, the removal of the WS6 and the Camaro from the lineup. The displacement of the Dodge Viper for more HP. The mustangs that FORD actually made. Sure The SVT's and Rouch mustangs and Saleens are great but when is Ford going to come out with a car with HP higher than 300 other than the Bullit. And GM is coming out with the new GTO but you know what, it looks like a Grand Prix with three headlights. I want the iron and i want the EPA to leave the auto industry alone. I want fast cars that make the RICERS go wow, American cars are offering more again. I go to the Indy dragstrip every year for the U.S. summer nationals, and listen to my father reflect back to all the cars that made American muscle American muscle. None of the ecologically sound BS we have now a days. OOHHH!! the exhaust is creating to much smog. The world isn't going to end until Jesus gets back anyway so why not have fun while were waiting. But my feeble request will never be heard or put to light anywhere so i guess i'll just leave the thread at that. :(

I agree with you, I think that the big 3 actually need to release a car that isn't made of polymers and has a displacement bigger the 5.0 liters. Time to bring the 351 back to mustangs, 396 to camaros (even though the car nolonger is made), and the 383 (or a nice 426 Hemi), back in something.

very insightful josh, i agree totally. As much as i like the looks and sounds of the Import cars, they are nothing compared to the pure strenght behind a muscle car. and when i say nothing, i mean, if you dont add all that turbo crap to it or add all the intakes, or import a certain engine then basically a lot of imports arent that great, when you bought a muscle car, you knew what you had, and it usually didnt disappoint. I honestly think that another way to get muscle cars back into the spotlight is to market them for a price that you dont have to be completely loaded to buy, sure the camaros and mustangs are decent priced-- when they are the smaller engines. and what about the vipers? why have to pay so much, granted its probably worth the money, but the high price means less sold. but i guess it hasnt caused a problem yet, so ill shut up on that. anyways, back to the topic all i gots ta say is muscle car enthusiasts should be very saddened and disappointed with todays market(as im sure many of them are) because i know i am.

*sniff sniff* bye bye WS6 and Camaro SS *sniff sniff*:(

you might rag on me for this but gimme an 86-87 grand national. unless you like turning

Are you kidding, the Grand Nationals are great cars. I would trade my T-Type in a heart beat for one of those, even though the T-Type probably handles a lot better.

my friend has an 86 GN with a 4.1 chevy engine bored to a 4.3. he's gets around 420+ hp running 14 psi(adjustable at wastegate) it's an all out sleeper though. Can't wait til this crappy NY winter is over so we can go cruisin again.

Z28Josh, your post was very well put. Cars these days just aren't made like they used to be. I would rather have my '66 Goat than most new cars out there. What makes me even more angry is the great muscle car GTO coming back as a very normal looking Pontiac. It needs more muscle, rather than just being a V8 Grand Am. Ford's Mustang GT concept shows a lot of promise, but I think if anyone brings muscle cars back, it will be Dodge. Just my 2 cents.

I like that new gto. 365 hp not enough muscle???

It is not the engine that dissappoints me. It is the styling. There is no hint of muscle car in the styling other than the GTO tags.

Originally posted by SuPeRcAr_MaN
It is not the engine that dissappoints me. It is the styling. There is no hint of muscle car in the styling other than the GTO tags.

Yeah I totally agree. I was excited to hear about it coming out, but when I saw the pictures of the car for the first time, the flame within me when out again. Just nothing like the old ones. Nothing like my 66 GTO that is sitting in the garage.

There is just something about driving and hearing that thing roar.

Originally posted by thecarman

... Nothing like my 66 GTO that is sitting in the garage.

There is just something about driving and hearing that thing roar.

That's funny, I have a '66 GTO too. I got mine last august in Hatboro, just north of Philadelphia for $3,000. It has a 421 in it, but needs tons of work. The pics are in an earlier post.

I think the V8 in the new GTOs will give a nice sound, maybe after a little modifications, and it will probably be a lot of fun to drive. It is just lacking the muscle car look. '66 was one of nicest GTOs by popular opinion, and I can't pick out one similarity between that and the new one, other than the name.

Working in the detail shop for a Pontiac Dealership, I get to drive the new GTO when we get one:D

Originally posted by ILike2DriveCars
Working in the detail shop for a Pontiac Dealership, I get to drive the new GTO when we get one:D

Lucky you. Post intensive details after the test drive. Take pictures if you can, may sound stupid but I wanna see every part of this car. Have fun! :D

Hey ILike2drivecars, you know just as well as anyone else that the GTO is not up to par with GM standards in styling(maybe they should have had Harley Earle design it) Jon i know you know about cars so don't go bragging about how you get to drive that undermodeled car. I love the fact that they are trying to bring it back out, but it looks like they lost ambition when they put it up on the drawing board. Since they are not going to bring back out my beloved Camaro, it should be time for a Firehawk revival shouldn't it? Anyway, when they start brainstorming they need to come up with a little more ideas than what i've been seeing from GM lately (i.e. New Sunfire)\

JJ

I agree somewhat with what was just said. But you make it seem that GM has such superior styling. I dont agree at all. Buick is wrong in using Harley Earle to pitch their new cars because he would design things that are ten times nicer than the old-guy cars that Buick designes. John DeLorean is still alive isn't he? Bring him back to GM to get some ideas. Cadillac is stepping ahead with their styling, and I am glad to see that. The CTS, Escalade, and XLR are three of the nicest vehicles out there. GM needs to branch out from Corvette being their only true sports car. Bring back the Camaros and Firebirds, redesign them and make them more powerful. This is just a few of the many many things GM needs to be doing with their Vehicles that they just aren't.

I completely agree with what your saying, if only we could get GM to listen to what we have to say somehow. I never meant GM had superior styling, although they do have the resources to do better than what they have been doing.

JJ

Originally posted by Z28Josh
Hey ILike2drivecars, you know just as well as anyone else that the GTO is not up to par with GM standards in styling(maybe they should have had Harley Earle design it) Jon i know you know about cars so don't go bragging about how you get to drive that undermodeled car. I love the fact that they are trying to bring it back out, but it looks like they lost ambition when they put it up on the drawing board. Since they are not going to bring back out my beloved Camaro, it should be time for a Firehawk revival shouldn't it? Anyway, when they start brainstorming they need to come up with a little more ideas than what i've been seeing from GM lately (i.e. New Sunfire)\

JJ

Josh, I will definatley agree with you, it is an undermodeled car, but not mechanically, only physically. The engine is the same as the WS6, and camaro ss, a 5.7Litre LS1, which is nothing to laugh at. The part that pisses me off is the fact that they went with such an unoriginal design. If you are going to bring out one of the great muscle cars of the past for a makeover, do a good job, dont decide to half-ass it and make it appear as though you simply dropped a better engine in a grand am and gave it a cool grill.

When it comes to styling, every car company has potential, a lot of the companies nowadays are going for a more futuristic look, as seen with nissan and its new R35, not bad in my opinion but lacking in some areas, as well as pontiac with its concept of the Solstice, I honestly like this car and should it come on the market, would buy one (if I had money). I agree though, I believe that if this car is to be sold to the consumer, the consumer should have ideas thrown in by themselves as to what they want out of a car appearance wise.

In my opinion the new GTO should look more like the 2004 Grand Prix GPX, but they decided to use the better styling for a Grand Prix rather than the GTO. ILike2DriveCars you have said what I have pretty much been trying to say since I first saw a pic of the new GTO. I would just love to see what Delorean has to say about the destroying of his creation... Anyway, GM does have the recources to be better than any car company out there, even Fiat, but they just aren't doing it... Maybe we will see more from them in the future.

I think that some of it may have a little to do with money matters. They are making money, they know that their GTO will sell no matter who thinks it's ugly, simply because "Hey, it's a GTO!" Essentially, if they make the quota needed to keep their car in production, they dont care, and will continue to not care until a better design comes along.

I really don't understand the debate. The new GTO follows the SAME formula as all other GTOs. Delorean's recipe was followed.

The new GTO is the two-door version of a family sedan powered by the largest engine available. The new GTO is RWD, stick, and V8-powered in a relatively small package. What's to complain about?

Had the GTO survived continuously from its introduction to today, how would it be different? With idea of being turbocharged in the 1980s and possibly (probably) going FWD in the early 1990s, THIS is where the GTO SHOULD be today. The Holden-based GTO is the heir to the original GTO.

Just because it doesn't have the side-of-a-barn aerodynamics of earliest GTOS? Just because it has a wing (remember the Judge was offered with a wing)? Just because it's built in Australia? Not good enough reasons to complain about this edition.

Except, that's not what the debate was about. We're discussing how cars nowadays aren't made with as much ambition as they used to be.

Originally posted by Hudson
I really don't understand the debate. The new GTO follows the SAME formula as all other GTOs. Delorean's recipe was followed.

The new GTO is the two-door version of a family sedan powered by the largest engine available. The new GTO is RWD, stick, and V8-powered in a relatively small package. What's to complain about?

Had the GTO survived continuously from its introduction to today, how would it be different? With idea of being turbocharged in the 1980s and possibly (probably) going FWD in the early 1990s, THIS is where the GTO SHOULD be today. The Holden-based GTO is the heir to the original GTO.

Just because it doesn't have the side-of-a-barn aerodynamics of earliest GTOS? Just because it has a wing (remember the Judge was offered with a wing)? Just because it's built in Australia? Not good enough reasons to complain about this edition.

I understand what you just said, but most of the points you stated about the GTO are the ones we are NOT arguing about (the RWD, 4-speed manual, midsize 2-door w/ a large engine). But we are debating the looks. Tell me on thing that this new "GTO" has that the old ones made famous (vertice stacked headlights, VERY aggressive looks, etc.). Ford's 2004-5 Mustang concept is a perfect example of what the GTO should be. That Stang recalls every distinctive styling feature that the 60's Stangs made so famous. Is there even an ounce of chrome on this "GTO"??? And Pontiac should've designed their own GTO, not taken the style of the Holden. Does that Holden even have anything to do with the old Pontiac GTO, or is the name a coincidence? I don't really care what anyone says, Pontiac did not follow through with the legendary muscle car: the GTO.

And BTW, it's not a wing, it's a spoiler. Wings = RICE.

This just goes to show that the manufacturers of today just pretty much dont care. IMO

Originally posted by ILike2DriveCars
This just goes to show that the manufacturers of today just pretty much dont care. IMO
i disagree, i mean who wants to drive a 400 hp rectangle on wheels. whoever designed the new gto probably thinks it looks awesome (I Do)the new gto is sleek and aerodynamic compared to it's predecessor and still beefy in the muscle. the last fast box shaped car was the Buick Grand national, that kinda styling went out in the 80's

HERE'S A CHANCE TO RELIVE YOUR CHILDHOOD....:hehehe:

Originally posted by Paonessa

i disagree, i mean who wants to drive a 400 hp rectangle on wheels. whoever designed the new gto probably thinks it looks awesome (I Do)the new gto is sleek and aerodynamic compared to it's predecessor and still beefy in the muscle. the last fast box shaped car was the Buick Grand national, that kinda styling went out in the 80's

Boxes on wheels? The muscle cars of the 60's were anything but boxes on wheels. They were beautifly styled and packe d a lot of punch under the hood. Every car was unique and manufacturers battled for the bigger V8. Now, cars are 4-bangers and V6s. Most of the roads in normal towns are covered with minivans and little Japanese "sports cars". If it wasn't for exotics and true sports cars, we wouldn't have anything to look at in the car world. Yes, muscle cars are returning, but they will never be the same as back in the day. Yea, the designer of the new GTO probably thinks it looks good... too bad it wasn't Delorean (or anyone from Pontiac) designing the car, then we would all think it looks good.

As said previous to this post, Yes, indeed the creator the HOLDEN MANERO likes how the new GTO looks. That kinda bothers me. I would have had no problems if the GTO looked like that by someones own design from pontiac. But pontiac didnt even design the car! It's a take off of an already existing car. Granted this car is in Austrailia, but that means that someone already has a car that looks like that so basically you dont have something unique, you have something that someone else had first and the American branch decided to slap a different badge on it. I myself thought the original GTO was badass, it had a mean look to it to go with its awesome power. The new GTO is a Grand Am/Grand Prix hybrid with a V8; Yippee.

Originally posted by ILike2DriveCars
As said previous to this post, Yes, indeed the creator the HOLDEN MANERO likes how the new GTO looks. That kinda bothers me. I would have had no problems if the GTO looked like that by someones own design from pontiac. But pontiac didnt even design the car! It's a take off of an already existing car. Granted this car is in Austrailia, but that means that someone already has a car that looks like that so basically you dont have something unique, you have something that someone else had first and the American branch decided to slap a different badge on it. I myself thought the original GTO was badass, it had a mean look to it to go with its awesome power. The new GTO is a Grand Am/Grand Prix hybrid with a V8; Yippee.

Finally, someone that feels the same way I do. I am excited about the powerful V8 and RWD, but I can't get excited over the looks...

Hey guys how about some perspective? The car you guys are getting as a GTO is infact a nose job challenged version of the (GM) Holden Monaro.

The Monaro was an Australian muscle car of the 60's/70's available in a variety of configurations but the gun version was the 69 327 Chev power 4 speed Saginaw 10 bolt diff. ( had an family friend with one ) The Monaro was the 2 door variant of the 4 door sedan/wagon, it eventually got killed off as a 2 door (with 350 Chev 4spd)and became a trim/power option in 4 door form for 1972/3 before it was killed off in a supercar scare here. the last 2 door cars were called LS and were fitted with the local 308 V8 and luxo trim.

The new Monaro started as a backroom after hours engineering project using as much of the current Commodore (4 door sedan/wagon RWD) bits as they could. Some photos snuck out to the local press and peopl,e started putting hard currency down to own one. The Monaro looks good, everyone here in Australia agree the pointiac nose job is woeful but thats what pontiac did to make it a part of their lineup. By the way locally (in Australia) they're building a limited edition(50 units) with a 427 Big block 6 speed and all the other go fast bits. Now thats a modern muscle car and no crap Pontiac nose either.

I'm going to put my original thread post in another forum and see what other people think about it...

I agree with the need for muscle cars, but I do think the so called "rice burners do have their benifits. It has been proven that we can be just as fast with smaller, lighter engines. The days of the big blocks arent really needed in todays world, but (and a big but at that) is the feeling isnt there with rice burners. When you hop in muscle car that screams big block, you get the sensation that raw power is rumbling under your hood, which it is. So I would love to see newer technologies incorpurated into older big blocks. I think you would see a great improvement in the muscle car industry.

I think I should point out that John Z. Delorean was NOT a designer. In fact, he wasn't even ever in the styling studio. John Z was a technician in the R&D department who, one night with Jim Wangers, noticed that the 389ci engine from the full-size Gran Prix would bolt right into the mid-size Tempest they were placing a 326ci engine into. They tried it, won a couple stoplight drags, named it after the most successful sports race car of the day, and history was made.

The styling team was still led by Bill Mitchell, the genius behind such glorious designs as the Sting Rays, the first three generations of Buick Riviera, and the 1966 Oldsmobile Toronado.

I do believe that the American auto manufacturers do need to return to RWD V8 performance. Luckily, this is what they're intending to do. It's a gradual change, but cars like the new GTO, the Chrysler 300C/Dodge Magnum (a pair of Hemi powered RWD sedans that are the replacements for the LS series), and the next generation of Mustang are signs that things are looking up.

Also, one thing that's been way overlooked about the new GTO; it's an interim car. Holden had already had a new Monaro on the drawing board when Bob Lutz went over to grab the current Monaro for Pontiac distribution. The next generation of Monaro, due out sometime soon, is being built on a new more global platform that will not only handle better, but make it easier to produce either RHD (Monaro) or LHD (GTO) examples, thus freeing up the workforce to build a more Pontiac specific version of the Monaro/GTO. The car is expected for 2006.

Trust me, the GTO is not going to remain a Monaro with a funny nose for long.

The only problem with these new "muscle" cars coming on the market from Ford, Chrysler, and GM is - how are you kids going to afford the insurance cost. Only old farts like me will be able to buy and enjoy them.

Regards:
Oldengineer

When i graduate next year with an associates in automotive management i'm sure i'll be able to find a decent paying job. When the Judge comes out :biggrin:

I really like old muscle cars. I started to really like them when I was in 7th grade and by 8th grade I could name the make, model and year of nearly every single muscle car of the 60s. One thing that really made muscle cars stand out was their styling, but also their DIFFERENT styling. No two years were exactly alike in looks, there were little changes all the time and you could easily see the difference between the big 3s cars and especially the wayward japanese car you'd see.

My point:

My friend Pat doesn't know shit about cars, trucks yes, cars no, he admits it. I like cars, (american ones anyway), and I can spot newer makes and models pretty well. We were driving along in the work truck we have down a major avenue here, and there was a new GTO driving in front of us the whole time. PAT, the un-car guy, was the one who finally noticed it.

So my point is, that new GTO is so goddamned BLAND looking, that someone who likes american muscle didn't even notice one driving right in front of him. That's pretty sad. I thought it was a grand am.

I know the feeling. A couple days after I graduated from college and landed my first "real" job, I went to the local Olds dealer and ordered a new 1969 Olds 442 with exactly the options I wanted. Must have passed my oldest son the Olds DNA strand. He's got a restored 1968 Cutlass Convertible with a full-race 350 in it. Hope you get your dream car.

Regards:
Oldengineer