Efficiency Modifications
kobefan
05-14-2007, 01:09 PM
I recently bought a ’99 Mazda Protégé and I was looking to do any modifications that would increase my gas mileage. I’ve also read a number of articles saying the best way to increase gas mileage is to adjust your driving habits (ie: drive less, at the speed limit, etc). But in terms of modifications, the only recommendation I’ve gathered is to replace the stock air filter with a performance K&N filter. Are there any other modifications that are well accepted to improve mpg? Can I expect increased horsepower or performance coincidently with the mpg boost?
Thanks for your time.
Thanks for your time.
UncleBob
05-14-2007, 02:09 PM
keep your tires aired up to 100psi, and take the sawsall to anythign that isn't absolutely needed, and even some things that are needed to get the weight down to as little as possible.
In short, no, there's not much you can do, engine wise. The efficiency of the engine is way too cost prohibitive to make any real attempts at changing it. You're way better off buying a more efficient vehicle.
In short, no, there's not much you can do, engine wise. The efficiency of the engine is way too cost prohibitive to make any real attempts at changing it. You're way better off buying a more efficient vehicle.
GreyGoose006
05-14-2007, 03:10 PM
... and please dont inflate your tires to 100psi
although inflating them to the max listed on the sidewall will help tremendously.
typically, they are inflated a lot less by the dealer and service stations
although inflating them to the max listed on the sidewall will help tremendously.
typically, they are inflated a lot less by the dealer and service stations
UncleBob
05-14-2007, 03:14 PM
... and please dont inflate your tires to 100psi
but using the sawsall is OK? :D
I'll leave 'proper' tire inflation to one of the several tire threads, since its not a simple subject
but using the sawsall is OK? :D
I'll leave 'proper' tire inflation to one of the several tire threads, since its not a simple subject
GreyGoose006
05-14-2007, 06:59 PM
well at least with a sawzall you are in control of what is being removed
with 100 psi in your tires, you would probably loose the whole car in one fell swoop if you tried to turn
:lol:
with 100 psi in your tires, you would probably loose the whole car in one fell swoop if you tried to turn
:lol:
INF3RN0666
05-17-2007, 11:34 PM
Do not buy a K&N filter man. That's a performance filter that clearly states "HIGH FLOW FILTER" on the box. High air flow = more fuel in cylinder in order to get proper combustion. In the end, more fuel burnt per stroke = less fuel efficient. Unless you're trying to squeeze out power, high flow filters are useless.
Sute
05-18-2007, 04:24 AM
to improve MPG you need to set a lean mixture in the cyliders, to get high performance you need to set a rich mixture, even though with modern electronic control system, its still hard to converge two points perfectly.
2.2 Straight six
05-18-2007, 04:57 AM
no, you need a 14.7:1 air/fuel ratio. it doesn't matter what state of tune your engine is, 14.7: is the optimum A/F ratio.
running lean can cause pre-detonation and can damage pistons/valves/heads/etc. running too rich can cause cylinder wall washing and increased wear.
running lean can cause pre-detonation and can damage pistons/valves/heads/etc. running too rich can cause cylinder wall washing and increased wear.
Sute
05-18-2007, 09:18 AM
Stoichiometric value is the best value for good efficiency of catalyst, but to get the MAX power, its better to set a mixture ratio slightly less than 14,7
2.2 Straight six
05-18-2007, 09:20 AM
yes, for maximum power a slightly lean mixture provides better burn.
the downside being that you can't do that too much because of the temperatures involved. many race cars run slightly rich because the extra fuel in the mix lowers combustion chamber temps.
the downside being that you can't do that too much because of the temperatures involved. many race cars run slightly rich because the extra fuel in the mix lowers combustion chamber temps.
Sute
05-18-2007, 09:20 AM
detonation can be solved by ECU, reducing the ignition advance
Sute
05-18-2007, 09:22 AM
<14,7 should mean rich.....i suppose...
UncleBob
05-18-2007, 09:10 PM
<14,7 should mean rich.....i suppose...
yes. Max power is traditionally between 12.8 and 13.0 AFR
yes. Max power is traditionally between 12.8 and 13.0 AFR
Stale Trooper
05-21-2007, 06:41 PM
Do not buy a K&N filter man. That's a performance filter that clearly states "HIGH FLOW FILTER" on the box. High air flow = more fuel in cylinder in order to get proper combustion. In the end, more fuel burnt per stroke = less fuel efficient. Unless you're trying to squeeze out power, high flow filters are useless.Just my :2cents: , but If you can't get it out, you can't stuff more in; Any low restriction air intake/filter is useless until & unless you also make changes to the exhaust. Headers, Low restriction mufflers, and oversized pipes are the cheapest mods for power/performance, or economy. I've been tuning both ends of the scale for almost 50 years, depending on the need and expected use of the vehicle. Trust me, I've tried just about everything, and achieving a good air flow through the engine is the whole secret, no matter what your target is.... Power, or ECONOMY.
curtis73
05-22-2007, 11:35 AM
detonation can be solved by ECU, reducing the ignition advance
Yes, but retarding the ignition will most certainly hurt MPG and HC emissions.
Keep properly inflated tires, drive like a grandma, and enjoy. There really isn't much else you can do. Most factory fuel curves are one step on the rich side to prevent detonation and reduce NOx (at the expense of HC) emissions. Having someone reprogram for a little less fuel might save you a half of one mpg, but it might cost $300 to do the work. Compare the cost versus what you save and see how long it will take to recover.
Other things you can do; run thinner tires. Contrary to popular belief, tire width does not affect how much rubber is contacting the road, it simply affects the shape of the contact patch. A long skinny contact patch provides less rolling resistance than a short fat one. Also select touring-type tires instead of performance tires. The smaller treadblocks not only help wet and noise performance, they offer less rolling resistance.
Avoid fuel additives or high octane fuel. Wastes of money.
Yes, but retarding the ignition will most certainly hurt MPG and HC emissions.
Keep properly inflated tires, drive like a grandma, and enjoy. There really isn't much else you can do. Most factory fuel curves are one step on the rich side to prevent detonation and reduce NOx (at the expense of HC) emissions. Having someone reprogram for a little less fuel might save you a half of one mpg, but it might cost $300 to do the work. Compare the cost versus what you save and see how long it will take to recover.
Other things you can do; run thinner tires. Contrary to popular belief, tire width does not affect how much rubber is contacting the road, it simply affects the shape of the contact patch. A long skinny contact patch provides less rolling resistance than a short fat one. Also select touring-type tires instead of performance tires. The smaller treadblocks not only help wet and noise performance, they offer less rolling resistance.
Avoid fuel additives or high octane fuel. Wastes of money.
KiwiBacon
05-22-2007, 08:13 PM
Just my :2cents: , but If you can't get it out, you can't stuff more in; Any low restriction air intake/filter is useless until & unless you also make changes to the exhaust. Headers, Low restriction mufflers, and oversized pipes are the cheapest mods for power/performance, or economy. I've been tuning both ends of the scale for almost 50 years, depending on the need and expected use of the vehicle. Trust me, I've tried just about everything, and achieving a good air flow through the engine is the whole secret, no matter what your target is.... Power, or ECONOMY.
High flow filters are not going to gain any economy or efficiency.
At cruise your engine is heavily throttled. Reducing the pressure drop at the filter just means you need to increase the pressure drop at the throttle plate.
Exhaust improvements can help if the original one is restrictive. But again at cruise the airflow through your engine is small, very few standard exhausts offer a significant restriction at such low flows.
High flow filters are not going to gain any economy or efficiency.
At cruise your engine is heavily throttled. Reducing the pressure drop at the filter just means you need to increase the pressure drop at the throttle plate.
Exhaust improvements can help if the original one is restrictive. But again at cruise the airflow through your engine is small, very few standard exhausts offer a significant restriction at such low flows.
Ian Szgatti
05-22-2007, 10:09 PM
I very much like the idea of making the underside of the vehicle more areodynamic. How about the gaping wind scoops under the tail end of most cars? Wind resistance accounts for a great deal of lost energy.
The major road-block to my experimenting with this is coming up with a suitable material to work with... but you know, I can see it working well, actually, I KNOW it would work well... but where do you get a decent piece of plastic to fit perfectly where you want it too??
The major road-block to my experimenting with this is coming up with a suitable material to work with... but you know, I can see it working well, actually, I KNOW it would work well... but where do you get a decent piece of plastic to fit perfectly where you want it too??
curtis73
05-22-2007, 10:21 PM
While thats a good idea, it requires a great deal of R&D to get the aerodynamics right. You might end up making things worse or adversely affecting handling, cooling, or other things. Removing turbulence under the car can increase downforce. More downforce means more friction and can show up as lower MPG. I guess what I'm saying is; the right aerodynamics will help MPG, but the same thing won't always work in all situations. I lost measurable MPG when i lowered my car, but others have measured an increase.
mrgamma
05-27-2007, 03:13 PM
... and please dont inflate your tires to 100psi
You can also put Nitrogen (http://www.stopngoservices.ca/Nitrogen.php) in your tires. It improves your tire life, keeps them inflated to an optimum pressure longer, and will save you money on gas. Nothing to be worried about as it's commonly practiced by the military, Nascar and alot of service stations will do this for you.
You can also put Nitrogen (http://www.stopngoservices.ca/Nitrogen.php) in your tires. It improves your tire life, keeps them inflated to an optimum pressure longer, and will save you money on gas. Nothing to be worried about as it's commonly practiced by the military, Nascar and alot of service stations will do this for you.
KiwiBacon
05-27-2007, 07:15 PM
You can also put Nitrogen (http://www.stopngoservices.ca/Nitrogen.php) in your tires. It improves your tire life, keeps them inflated to an optimum pressure longer, and will save you money on gas. Nothing to be worried about as it's commonly practiced by the military, Nascar and alot of service stations will do this for you.
Waste of time and money.
Air is already 78% nitrogen.
Waste of time and money.
Air is already 78% nitrogen.
2.2 Straight six
05-27-2007, 07:21 PM
Nitrogen is only used because in the temperature ranges tyres experience, it expands less than air does.
no need on road cars, used more on race cars and high performance aeroplanes.
no need on road cars, used more on race cars and high performance aeroplanes.
mrgamma
05-28-2007, 06:00 AM
Nitrogen is only used because in the temperature ranges tyres experience, it expands less than air does.
Exactly... Nitrogen will keep your optimitum inflation in your tires longer. If you feel that you can maintain the optimum pressure without the assistance of Nitrogen well then I guess your right. There would be no need for it in a road car. From what I can tell it is also a popular modification with truck companies who are concerned about thier milleage.
Exactly... Nitrogen will keep your optimitum inflation in your tires longer. If you feel that you can maintain the optimum pressure without the assistance of Nitrogen well then I guess your right. There would be no need for it in a road car. From what I can tell it is also a popular modification with truck companies who are concerned about thier milleage.
KiwiBacon
05-28-2007, 02:36 PM
Exactly... Nitrogen will keep your optimitum inflation in your tires longer. If you feel that you can maintain the optimum pressure without the assistance of Nitrogen well then I guess your right. There would be no need for it in a road car. From what I can tell it is also a popular modification with truck companies who are concerned about thier milleage.
No it won't.
Nitrogen will diffuse out of your tyres at damn near exactly the same rate that normal compressed air does.
In addition, people who've paid for Nitrogen won't check their tyre pressure as often and won't want to top up their tyres with normal compressed air. So they'll probably suffer from underinflation and have worse fuel economy than with compressed air.
No it won't.
Nitrogen will diffuse out of your tyres at damn near exactly the same rate that normal compressed air does.
In addition, people who've paid for Nitrogen won't check their tyre pressure as often and won't want to top up their tyres with normal compressed air. So they'll probably suffer from underinflation and have worse fuel economy than with compressed air.
mrgamma
05-28-2007, 02:58 PM
No it won't.
Nitrogen will diffuse out of your tyres at damn near exactly the same rate that normal compressed air does.
Okay... It is really easy to find countless references on a number of websites which will tell you that Nitrogen will escape diffuse from you tires more slowly... I think the popular number is 30% - 40% slower that normal air...
But if you would like a reference from a science guy then here you go...
http://mailer.uwf.edu/listserv/wa.exe?A2=ind0502&L=chemed-l&P=11555
Nitrogen will diffuse out of your tyres at damn near exactly the same rate that normal compressed air does.
Okay... It is really easy to find countless references on a number of websites which will tell you that Nitrogen will escape diffuse from you tires more slowly... I think the popular number is 30% - 40% slower that normal air...
But if you would like a reference from a science guy then here you go...
http://mailer.uwf.edu/listserv/wa.exe?A2=ind0502&L=chemed-l&P=11555
KiwiBacon
05-28-2007, 05:51 PM
Okay... It is really easy to find countless references on a number of websites which will tell you that Nitrogen will escape diffuse from you tires more slowly... I think the popular number is 30% - 40% slower that normal air...
But if you would like a reference from a science guy then here you go...
http://mailer.uwf.edu/listserv/wa.exe?A2=ind0502&L=chemed-l&P=11555
You don't understand your own links.
For a start the link inside that link is from Parker.com, it is a sales brochure for a nitrogen generator to inflat car tyres with nitrogen.
Secondly.
They are discussing the diffusion rates of oxygen to nitrogen.
Air isn't 100% oxygen, it's actually 78% nitrogen and about 21% oxygen.:screwy:
If it were true (but it's probably not) that oxygen travelled through rubber 30-40% faster then 30% of 21 = 6% faster.
Given that I've seen tyres stay pumped up for more than 10 years, that 6% is a pathetically small number.
But again if it were true, I could simply pump my tyres up with air, let the oxygen find it's own way out and pump them up again. By the 3rd or 4th time I'd have more nitrogen in my tyres than was coming out of that nitrogen generator in the first place.
Summary.
It's snake oil.
But if you would like a reference from a science guy then here you go...
http://mailer.uwf.edu/listserv/wa.exe?A2=ind0502&L=chemed-l&P=11555
You don't understand your own links.
For a start the link inside that link is from Parker.com, it is a sales brochure for a nitrogen generator to inflat car tyres with nitrogen.
Secondly.
They are discussing the diffusion rates of oxygen to nitrogen.
Air isn't 100% oxygen, it's actually 78% nitrogen and about 21% oxygen.:screwy:
If it were true (but it's probably not) that oxygen travelled through rubber 30-40% faster then 30% of 21 = 6% faster.
Given that I've seen tyres stay pumped up for more than 10 years, that 6% is a pathetically small number.
But again if it were true, I could simply pump my tyres up with air, let the oxygen find it's own way out and pump them up again. By the 3rd or 4th time I'd have more nitrogen in my tyres than was coming out of that nitrogen generator in the first place.
Summary.
It's snake oil.
mrgamma
05-28-2007, 07:29 PM
If it were true (but it's probably not)
I understand what I referenced. It is a concerned consumer asking a chemist if there is any benefit to use Nitrogen over Oxygen. The chemist clearly says that Nitrogen will diffuse through rubber at a slower rate than Oxygen.
I am not into physics but I highly doubt that you will end up with a pure nitrogen mix if you let the oxygen diffuse from your tires... That's like saying only oxygen will be left over if you let water diffuse through rubber.
Anyways... here is another reference... to be clear... this one is a message to from a motorcyclist to conservationist asking how to best conserve the considtion of thier bike...
http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/cdl/2006/0485.html
The Conservationist says to put nitrogen in the tires to prevent the rubber from oxydizing...
You can continue to believe that Nitrogen in Tires is snake oil and that the whole world is trying to rip you off or you can do a little research and find the truth...
Hey, for $20.00 you can run your own tests...
I understand what I referenced. It is a concerned consumer asking a chemist if there is any benefit to use Nitrogen over Oxygen. The chemist clearly says that Nitrogen will diffuse through rubber at a slower rate than Oxygen.
I am not into physics but I highly doubt that you will end up with a pure nitrogen mix if you let the oxygen diffuse from your tires... That's like saying only oxygen will be left over if you let water diffuse through rubber.
Anyways... here is another reference... to be clear... this one is a message to from a motorcyclist to conservationist asking how to best conserve the considtion of thier bike...
http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/cdl/2006/0485.html
The Conservationist says to put nitrogen in the tires to prevent the rubber from oxydizing...
You can continue to believe that Nitrogen in Tires is snake oil and that the whole world is trying to rip you off or you can do a little research and find the truth...
Hey, for $20.00 you can run your own tests...
beef_bourito
05-28-2007, 10:43 PM
ok first of all your references aren't to be taken seriously, where does it say this guy is a chemist? what credentials does this conservationist have? does he have a PhD in chemistry? does he even have a bachelor's in chemistry? we don't know, therefore he can't be taken seriously. he could be some random guy with no university education that ended up conserving motorcycles somehow.
second, i'll address that whole thing you don't get about filling your tires up with air and getting nearly pure nitrogen. air is 78% N2, 21% O2. if the O2 leaks out faster than the N2, the concentration of N2 will increase. let's say, for argument's sake, that after leaking out the contents of the tire are 85% N2 and 14% O2, and that 30% of the volume leaked out. so you see that your tires have deflated by 30% so you top it up, you add air. now the concentration of nitrogen in the tire is higher than it was before because more oxygen has leaked out. over time the conenctration of N2 goes up and the concentration of O2 goes down, you refill, you now have more N2 than the previous refill. you can see how after a few refills you would have nearly pure N2 in your tire.
your example of having only oxygen left after you let water diffuse through rubber is flawed. in the case of air in the tire it's a homogeneous mixture, water is a compound, they are two very different things.
also, the reason they have nitrogen in certain applications (planes, race cars, etc) is because they need to maintain proper pressure when the tire temperature changes, they don't really care about how quickly oxygen difuses through rubber when compared to nitrogen. pressure changes when the temperature changes, and since nitrogen expands slightly (read extremely slightly) less than oxygen with temperature increases, they can more accurately tune the tire pressure. i could go into detail as to how small this difference is, but i don't feel like putting the effort in. you won't see a difference of more than 5% until a few dozen atmospheres (1 atm is about 15 psi). so you won't notice a considerable difference until a few thousand psi.
bottom line: it's a waste of money, you'll end up with just about as high a concentration of nitrogen in your tires after a few refills.
edit: i just looked at the bottom of the message to the motorbike guy, he's an intern, so at the very best he's a university student, but most likely he's got no formal post-secondary education other than restoration or something.
second, i'll address that whole thing you don't get about filling your tires up with air and getting nearly pure nitrogen. air is 78% N2, 21% O2. if the O2 leaks out faster than the N2, the concentration of N2 will increase. let's say, for argument's sake, that after leaking out the contents of the tire are 85% N2 and 14% O2, and that 30% of the volume leaked out. so you see that your tires have deflated by 30% so you top it up, you add air. now the concentration of nitrogen in the tire is higher than it was before because more oxygen has leaked out. over time the conenctration of N2 goes up and the concentration of O2 goes down, you refill, you now have more N2 than the previous refill. you can see how after a few refills you would have nearly pure N2 in your tire.
your example of having only oxygen left after you let water diffuse through rubber is flawed. in the case of air in the tire it's a homogeneous mixture, water is a compound, they are two very different things.
also, the reason they have nitrogen in certain applications (planes, race cars, etc) is because they need to maintain proper pressure when the tire temperature changes, they don't really care about how quickly oxygen difuses through rubber when compared to nitrogen. pressure changes when the temperature changes, and since nitrogen expands slightly (read extremely slightly) less than oxygen with temperature increases, they can more accurately tune the tire pressure. i could go into detail as to how small this difference is, but i don't feel like putting the effort in. you won't see a difference of more than 5% until a few dozen atmospheres (1 atm is about 15 psi). so you won't notice a considerable difference until a few thousand psi.
bottom line: it's a waste of money, you'll end up with just about as high a concentration of nitrogen in your tires after a few refills.
edit: i just looked at the bottom of the message to the motorbike guy, he's an intern, so at the very best he's a university student, but most likely he's got no formal post-secondary education other than restoration or something.
INF3RN0666
05-28-2007, 10:47 PM
To make the bottom of your car aerodynamic, you would have to put plates along the entire bottom. HIGHLY NOT RECOMMENDED. If you have a small gap, wind will fill the pocket you create and either slow you down even more or make the car hard to handle. Spoilers supposedly help fuel efficiency, but it would have to be a test one. One that is curved up is much better than those stupid ones you see on riced out cars. It only helps at high speeds though...
If I was you, I would make sure that my breaks were properly adjusted and aren't dragging. Then I would look at bearings.
If I was you, I would make sure that my breaks were properly adjusted and aren't dragging. Then I would look at bearings.
beef_bourito
05-28-2007, 10:50 PM
how would a spoiler help fuel economy? it creates drag and if it creates downforce it's increasing the rolling resistance of the tires.
mrgamma
05-28-2007, 11:10 PM
ok first of all your references aren't to be taken seriously, where does it say this guy is a chemist?
Look... I tried to keep my references to a strictly non-commerical source... All of the previous sources were from .edu's and if your going to tell me that the person from stanford was making everything up as well as the chemistry professor http://www.stolaf.edu/people/hansonr/ then keep kidding yourself...
http://www.dunntire.com/Services/Nitrogen/
Why not call up Dunn Tires and tell them they are lying?
Why should I take you seriously... Who are you??? Obviously all of these people are lying... It's a big conspiracy... Please tell me more about your in depth knowledge about aerodynamics...
EDIT: I just read your profile... your a 19 year old with a 1992 Honda accord... You must know what your talking about...
Look... I tried to keep my references to a strictly non-commerical source... All of the previous sources were from .edu's and if your going to tell me that the person from stanford was making everything up as well as the chemistry professor http://www.stolaf.edu/people/hansonr/ then keep kidding yourself...
http://www.dunntire.com/Services/Nitrogen/
Why not call up Dunn Tires and tell them they are lying?
Why should I take you seriously... Who are you??? Obviously all of these people are lying... It's a big conspiracy... Please tell me more about your in depth knowledge about aerodynamics...
EDIT: I just read your profile... your a 19 year old with a 1992 Honda accord... You must know what your talking about...
KiwiBacon
05-29-2007, 12:31 AM
Look... I tried to keep my references to a strictly non-commerical source... All of the previous sources were from .edu's and if your going to tell me that the person from stanford was making everything up as well as the chemistry professor http://www.stolaf.edu/people/hansonr/ then keep kidding yourself...
http://www.dunntire.com/Services/Nitrogen/
Why not call up Dunn Tires and tell them they are lying?
Why should I take you seriously... Who are you??? Obviously all of these people are lying... It's a big conspiracy... Please tell me more about your in depth knowledge about aerodynamics...
EDIT: I just read your profile... your a 19 year old with a 1992 Honda accord... You must know what your talking about...
The reason there are no good references supporting nitrogen in tyres, is that noone without a commercial interest and any clue on the subject will put their name to snake oil (or is that "snake air")?
Here's a link to qualified engineers (like myself) discussing the topic with a few non engineers who snuck in.
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=120996&page=1
http://www.dunntire.com/Services/Nitrogen/
Why not call up Dunn Tires and tell them they are lying?
Why should I take you seriously... Who are you??? Obviously all of these people are lying... It's a big conspiracy... Please tell me more about your in depth knowledge about aerodynamics...
EDIT: I just read your profile... your a 19 year old with a 1992 Honda accord... You must know what your talking about...
The reason there are no good references supporting nitrogen in tyres, is that noone without a commercial interest and any clue on the subject will put their name to snake oil (or is that "snake air")?
Here's a link to qualified engineers (like myself) discussing the topic with a few non engineers who snuck in.
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=120996&page=1
mrgamma
05-29-2007, 01:20 AM
The reason there are no good references supporting nitrogen in tyres, is that noone without a commercial interest and any clue on the subject will put their name to snake oil (or is that "snake air")?
That's just not true... I have given you two very good references which are outside of a commercial nature... Here are specific studies which document the effects of nitrogen in tires...
http://www.getnitrogen.org/pdf/Nitrogen%20Tire%20Inflation%20for%20the%20Big%20Ri gs.pdf
http://www.nitrogentiremachine.com/Economic%20advantages%20for%20high%20Nitrogen%20pu rity.htm
http://www.retread.org/PDF/nitronews.pdf
These people who have published these articles have a commercial interest in saving money and optimizing the performance of thier vehicles. There seems to be a huge degree of resistance to this PROVEN performance enhancement... I am having a real hard time understanding why, especially when there are hundreds if not thousands of people backing the benefits of Nitrogen. I have searched the internet all day now it seems and I have yet to find one study which disproves the performance enhancements of Nitrogen in your Tires. I have found nothing but positive reports baosting the benefits...
It must be a conspiracy!! That's it... Everyone is lying! The scientists, NASA, the military, NASCAR, every frigging automotive center on the planet...
Okay... I apologize for my sarcasm... But until you can provide me with anywhere near as much proof as I have just provided you... then there is no argument...
It's obvious that Nitrogen will improve the performance and life of your tires...
BTW... That third article is a report from a not-for-profit organization... Do I need to raise Earnhardt from the grave and get him to endorse it to you guys or is this proof enough for you?
That's just not true... I have given you two very good references which are outside of a commercial nature... Here are specific studies which document the effects of nitrogen in tires...
http://www.getnitrogen.org/pdf/Nitrogen%20Tire%20Inflation%20for%20the%20Big%20Ri gs.pdf
http://www.nitrogentiremachine.com/Economic%20advantages%20for%20high%20Nitrogen%20pu rity.htm
http://www.retread.org/PDF/nitronews.pdf
These people who have published these articles have a commercial interest in saving money and optimizing the performance of thier vehicles. There seems to be a huge degree of resistance to this PROVEN performance enhancement... I am having a real hard time understanding why, especially when there are hundreds if not thousands of people backing the benefits of Nitrogen. I have searched the internet all day now it seems and I have yet to find one study which disproves the performance enhancements of Nitrogen in your Tires. I have found nothing but positive reports baosting the benefits...
It must be a conspiracy!! That's it... Everyone is lying! The scientists, NASA, the military, NASCAR, every frigging automotive center on the planet...
Okay... I apologize for my sarcasm... But until you can provide me with anywhere near as much proof as I have just provided you... then there is no argument...
It's obvious that Nitrogen will improve the performance and life of your tires...
BTW... That third article is a report from a not-for-profit organization... Do I need to raise Earnhardt from the grave and get him to endorse it to you guys or is this proof enough for you?
2.2 Straight six
05-29-2007, 01:25 AM
Ok, this thread is about increasing the efficency of your car, it's not a discussion about wether filling your tyres with nitrogen is beneficial or not.
the arguing over this whole nitrogen thing ends now or i'm going to lock this thread.
i trust that's understood.
EDIT - if you want to continue the nitrogen debate, by all means start a new thread, so long as you don't argue. I think we've all hard enough of it in this thread.
the arguing over this whole nitrogen thing ends now or i'm going to lock this thread.
i trust that's understood.
EDIT - if you want to continue the nitrogen debate, by all means start a new thread, so long as you don't argue. I think we've all hard enough of it in this thread.
KiwiBacon
05-29-2007, 01:55 AM
how would a spoiler help fuel economy? it creates drag and if it creates downforce it's increasing the rolling resistance of the tires.
There was a very good online article in something like racecar engineering about that.
They had a CFD plot of a nascar shell with a rear splittler attached to the edge of the boot. They varied the angle and length of the splitter and plotted the downforce and drag.
Yes there were regions where the rear splitter wing reduced drag, from memory it was at angles which created little or no downforce. The reduction in drag was the result of letting the airstreams from above and below the car merge with less turbulence.
There was a very good online article in something like racecar engineering about that.
They had a CFD plot of a nascar shell with a rear splittler attached to the edge of the boot. They varied the angle and length of the splitter and plotted the downforce and drag.
Yes there were regions where the rear splitter wing reduced drag, from memory it was at angles which created little or no downforce. The reduction in drag was the result of letting the airstreams from above and below the car merge with less turbulence.
2.2 Straight six
05-29-2007, 02:01 AM
i have that article in one of my copies of Racecar Engineering.
interesting read, although not being an engineer i can't say i understood all of it.
interesting read, although not being an engineer i can't say i understood all of it.
INF3RN0666
05-29-2007, 09:39 PM
Yeah that's what I was saying about a spoiler. The ones that direct air upward (not as to create downforce) but as to redirect turbulent air away from the bumper and getting under the car. I don't really recommend spoilers just because most of them are for aesthetics on consumer vehicles. Or you get the ricers that put massive spoilers that have no purpose what so ever, because they look ugly and are not properly adjusted.
stick99
06-02-2007, 05:18 AM
Because there are so many different factors that go in to drag forces, it's possible that a spoiler can change how the air flows around the car and reducing drag on the car.
For example, if you change where on the car the flow changes to turbulent flow, it can possible reduce drag. The dimples on golf balls actually create turbulent flow to reduce drag.
I would think that a spoiler able to reduce the drag would need to have a very large amount of time and money spent researching it, it would not be done for a common car that has no need extra downforce. Taking any spoiler and just slapping onto your car and having it actually work to reduce drag would probably be luckier then winning the lottery.
I've heard that the car with the least amount of drag out there now is the Honda Insite with it's teardrop shape
For example, if you change where on the car the flow changes to turbulent flow, it can possible reduce drag. The dimples on golf balls actually create turbulent flow to reduce drag.
I would think that a spoiler able to reduce the drag would need to have a very large amount of time and money spent researching it, it would not be done for a common car that has no need extra downforce. Taking any spoiler and just slapping onto your car and having it actually work to reduce drag would probably be luckier then winning the lottery.
I've heard that the car with the least amount of drag out there now is the Honda Insite with it's teardrop shape
bobss396
06-07-2007, 09:41 AM
Ever hear of hypermiling? There is a group of people that do outrageous things to get as much fuel mileage as possible. Read up on it, very interesting but very extreme in some cases. Literally, anything non-functional is stripped out of the car. That's just one trick.
Bob
Bob
vgames33
06-08-2007, 12:32 AM
Ever hear of hypermiling? There is a group of people that do outrageous things to get as much fuel mileage as possible. Read up on it, very interesting but very extreme in some cases. Literally, anything non-functional is stripped out of the car. That's just one trick.
Bob
There was something in the paper about that the other day. They were suggesting that we should ride the bumper of a semi truck to gain "eye-popping gas mileage."
Bob
There was something in the paper about that the other day. They were suggesting that we should ride the bumper of a semi truck to gain "eye-popping gas mileage."
bobss396
06-08-2007, 05:42 AM
There was something in the paper about that the other day. They were suggesting that we should ride the bumper of a semi truck to gain "eye-popping gas mileage."
Like a truck driver will put up with that for long! I think that you have to be within a couple of feet for it to be effective.
Bob
Like a truck driver will put up with that for long! I think that you have to be within a couple of feet for it to be effective.
Bob
Moppie
06-08-2007, 07:00 AM
Like a truck driver will put up with that for long! I think that you have to be within a couple of feet for it to be effective.
Bob
Truck Drivers generally don't care about being tail gated, after all if you hit the back of a truck in your car because you are stupid enough to follow it close, who do you think is going to be able to keep driving?
Bob
Truck Drivers generally don't care about being tail gated, after all if you hit the back of a truck in your car because you are stupid enough to follow it close, who do you think is going to be able to keep driving?
bobss396
06-08-2007, 11:35 AM
Truck Drivers generally don't care about being tail gated, after all if you hit the back of a truck in your car because you are stupid enough to follow it close, who do you think is going to be able to keep driving?
Yeah, truckers love cars in places where they can't see them. And I'm the Easter Bunny.
Yeah, truckers love cars in places where they can't see them. And I'm the Easter Bunny.
turtlecrxsi
06-08-2007, 12:59 PM
I saw an EG Civic hatch with plastic shaped to form various extensions on the rear/hatch part of the car as well as splitter-like extensions along the sides. At a distance I thought it was just some rice-mobile but up close I could tell that the guy was probably "experimenting" with aerodynamics. I tried to snap a pic but when I told my wife to drive along side the car she passed it and then the guy turned. :rolleyes:
2.2 Straight six
06-08-2007, 02:26 PM
Yeah, truckers love cars in places where they can't see them. And I'm the Easter Bunny.
i've spoken to truck drivers about that, they don't care.
you run into a truck at 70 and they won't even feel it.
i've spoken to truck drivers about that, they don't care.
you run into a truck at 70 and they won't even feel it.
Moppie
06-08-2007, 05:30 PM
Yeah, truckers love cars in places where they can't see them. And I'm the Easter Bunny.
Iv spent several years driving trucks, and currently work for NZ largest freight company. Trust me, they don't care :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
If you drive beside them, in their blind spots however....... :nono:
Iv spent several years driving trucks, and currently work for NZ largest freight company. Trust me, they don't care :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
If you drive beside them, in their blind spots however....... :nono:
534BC
06-09-2007, 02:03 PM
Only truckers that care whether they are at risk of being hit in the back or have to worry about stopping distance/reaction time of more than their own vehicle will care if they're tailgated.
As a rule it is recommended to stay a safe following distance from any vehicle. With a truck it not only gives you time to react, but it also gives you far better vision.
If you follow like a typical driver does with nearly zero visibility and a second following distance and the truck has to stop quick, you have a great chance of not seeing what he/she sees and a great chance of hitting in the back and zero chance of steering around.
I for one get real nervous if I'm following a billboard at less than 1 second , relying on my lightniong speed reactions and a working set of brake lights.
The only thing you may have going for you is faster reacting brakes, better brakes, shorter stoping distance, maybe . maybe not.
As a rule it is recommended to stay a safe following distance from any vehicle. With a truck it not only gives you time to react, but it also gives you far better vision.
If you follow like a typical driver does with nearly zero visibility and a second following distance and the truck has to stop quick, you have a great chance of not seeing what he/she sees and a great chance of hitting in the back and zero chance of steering around.
I for one get real nervous if I'm following a billboard at less than 1 second , relying on my lightniong speed reactions and a working set of brake lights.
The only thing you may have going for you is faster reacting brakes, better brakes, shorter stoping distance, maybe . maybe not.
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