Starting problem

Hey guys, I'm having a problem with my 1997 Ford Escort, I'm hoping someone can give me some advice. Ok, here's what happened. I went to start the car yesterday, and as it was cranking, it sort of paused, like it lost power, then it started cranking again and started up just fine. Well, I went to a job interview and parked it, when I came back out, it started without any trouble. So I'm driving down the road and all of the sudden the A/C fan sounds like it starts slowing down, then it speeds back up, and my radio is cutting out like it's losing power too, but then comes back on. Well it finally goes away and when I come to a stop, the car completely dies on me. I go to restart it, and I get nothing but clicks and the occasional half revolution of the motor turning as I try to start it, but it's a very slow revolution. It finally starts back up and I drive it home without anymore real problems. I park it and assume I have a bad connection at the battery or something, so I clean the battery terminals. When I put it all back together, it refuses to start at all. All it does is just click. Every so often it will do about a half revolution to a full revolution or so, but that's it. Also, when I try to start it, all of my lights cut out completely. If my headlights are on, the cut out too, kind of like I have a drained battery. Well, I put in a known working battery and I get the same thing, just clicks. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what I should be looking for? Thanks in advance.

PS - Sorry for the extremely long post, I was just trying to be as descriptive as possible and explain the whole situation.

A problem well stated is a problem half solved. The hot side of the battery runs to the solenoid of the starter. Everything else in the electrical system gets its current off of the hot post of the starter. Sure seems like the starter is going out on you. Either that or it's a bad connection to everything else down there. When everything cuts out when you hit the starter tells me that the armature is grounding out on the field. I may be wrong, but I sure think the culprit is the starter. Espcially since you tried a known good battery and it did it even then. My 97 has 165k on it with no problems with the starter. Starters seem to last forever on Escorts. If somebody else thinks it's something other than the starter I'd sure like to hear about it. Anybody?

Thanks for the reply. I just finished pulling the starter out. Man, that was a task.. The two bolts on the top aren't very easy to get to. Anyways, I'm going to take the starter in and get it benchtested. I did find something though. A ground wire that runs down to a small flange that gets bolted down with one of the starter bolts. This wire appears to be corroded all the way through, from one end to the other, and I do mean BAD corrosion. So no matter what I'm going to be replacing that ground, but I'm hoping it's the culprit.

EDIT: One thing I did just think about that I didn't say in my original post, when the car died on me, I lost all of my radio presets. So it acted just like I physically disconnected the battery. That's what made me think originally it was the battery.

Ditto on the starter. The ground problem is a good find... wouldn't be surprised if the starter is going too though.

Once running again check your alternator and make sure it is putting out a steady current.

Thanks guys for the advice. I think I'll go ahead and pull the alt. off too and get it benchtested at the same time as the start.. Hopefully that will rule it out.

Ok, the started was tested and tested good. I just replaced the bad ground, and it's still doing the same thing. Here's my question though. I pulled a batter out of a Chevy G20 van that works perfectly in the van, it starts right up, but when I put it in the Ford, the ford just clicks and headlights and everything dim when I try to start it, just like if the battery was losing power. Is it possible that it is the battery? Does the battery have to be the exact same kind of battery that came in the car? I'm starting to run out of ideas as to what might be wrong.

Having removed both the battery and the starter motor, you will presumably have verified that all connections are clean prior to reassembly. That only leaves one connection that I can think of which might be causing the problem, and that would be a high-resistance (corroded) connection on the engine side of the heavy-duty cable which connects the battery negative terminal to the engine block, so I'd unbolt that at the engine and make sure that it's clean.

Does the battery have to be the exact same kind of battery that came in the car?
If you just want to temporarily replace a suspect battery with a known good one, for test purposes, then almost any 12V vehicle battery can be used. The only exception would be if you tried to use a battery from, say, a small 1.3 litre compact car to start a big V-8 engine or a big diesel engine. I don't know what a Chevy G20 van is (I'm in the UK) but it seems to me that if the battery starts the Chevy without any problem then it should be able to crank any Escort engine with similar ease.

Your own battery is probably flat by now but if you could recharge it and use it to successfully crank and start the Chevy and if it then still failed to start your Escort then that would pretty much prove that the problem isn't with the battery.

I suspect a high-resistance connection or possibly a high-resistance cable which has rotted internally, beneath the insulation where it isn't visible, which can happen sometimes due to water ingress. The prime suspect would be the battery grounding strap which I already mentioned in my previous post, which runs from the battery negative terminal to the engine block. A problem with the connector at either end, or the cable itself, anywhere along its length, could cause all of the symptoms which you have mentioned, because that earthing strap is common to all of the circuits on the car, including the starter motor.

It's less likely that a positive cable is causing the problem, because even if you had a bad connection or a corroded cable running down to the starter motor - that would put the starter motor out-of-action but it wouldn't account for lights dimming or the presets on the radio dropping out, because those circuits will have their own positive feed, quite separate from the positive feed to the starter. Also, in your opening post you said that the air-con blower motor was slowing down and the radio cutting out whilst actually driving, and in that case the cables and connections running down to the starter motor wouldn't even be in-circuit. I'd definitely take a very close look at the engine grounding strap.

I agree with checking your grounds. One thing you can do, before doing anything is get yourself a multimeter (the cheapo ones are good enough for automotive work) and set it to ohms. Then, check your grounds by placing one lead on the negetive battery terminal, and then the other to the engine block, then to the alternator casing, and then to the car body. All readings should be zero, or very close to it (nothing above 1-2 ohms). If you have a higher resistance, you need to either clean your ground straps, or add a new one.

Rob D

Thanks for the info guys.. I replaced the ground that goes from the negative to the block, it really made no change at all. The Chevy G20 is a V6, so the battery from that van should be more than enough to start up this little 4 cylinder. It's really weird, when I put my battery on my battery charger, and let it charge for awhile, the engine will crank, it will do maybe 1 revolution or so.. But it's like the battery slowly drains and then it just clicks. I'm gonna go out tomorrow and take a closer look at all of the grounds.

It sounds like it is taking too much current/voltage to turn your car over. When the battery is fresh off the charger, its voltage is unnaturally high (14-15v) but it then settles down to the regular 12V. It almost sounds like the starter. As they get old, they can draw alot of juice, and almost seem like you have a dead battery. They said it was good though, so I'm not sure, if your grounds are good.

Well, the starter was tested multiple times, and worked flawlessly each time, so I guess that rules out the starter. I'll try and take a closer look at the grounds today..

I've been thinking some more about this and two thoughts occur to me. The first is that you've done a fair bit of work around the battery and the starter motor and also you've replaced the engine grounding strap and I think that if you had a bad connection or a bad cable anywhere in those circuits you would have spotted it by now so it's entirely possible that everything there is in order.

I think that what you were saying about the air-con blower motor slowing down and the radio cutting out whilst actually driving might be the best clue that we have. I think there may be a problem with the main 12V feed to the rest of the vehicle (but not including the heavy-duty feed to the starter motor, which is a separate, unfused feed). If the vehicle main feed is unreliable then obviously it could account for the blower motor problem and the radio problem, but - and this is my second thought - less obvious is that it could also account for the problem with the starter circuit.

The starter motor is activated by current flowing to the starter solenoid, via the smallest of the three terminals on the starter motor - the 'S' terminal. When the ignition switch is in the Start position, current flows via the ignition switch and the clutch safety switch (manual transmission) or the transmission range sensor (automatic transmission) to ground via that little 'S' terminal on the starter motor assembly (that forms a safety circuit to prevent the car from being started whilst it's in gear).

Now let's say that you have a problem with the feed to the ignition switch - maybe a loose or high-resistance connection at, for example, the vehicle main fuse or within the ignition switch itself and you're losing a couple of volts across that bad connection. Now let's say that you're trying to start the car so you turn the ignition switch to the Start position - current flows via the safety circuit which I just mentioned, to the starter motor 'S' terminal, and the solenoid activates and the starter motor begins to rotate. At that instant, as is the case on all vehicles, the voltage at the battery terminals will drop a couple of volts due to the internal resistance of the battery whilst the very high starting current (100 Amps or more - maybe as much as 200 Amps) is flowing to the starter motor. That's quite normal (and that's why a car's lights always dim briefly for the second or two that the starter motor is running) but in your particular case you were already missing a couple of volts due to the bad connection and now you lose yet another couple of volts due to the normal voltage drop whilst the starter is running and suddenly there just isn't enough voltage available to keep the starter solenoid activated - so it drops out and the starter motor quits turning. That could account for the fact that the starter only runs very briefly before quitting, or quits virtually instantly, giving instead just a click as the solenoid engages but there not being enough voltage available to keep it engaged. Sorry about the long-winded explanation but hopefully you will follow what I mean.

So my next step would be to temporarily bypass the safety circuit and run a length of wire directly from the little 'S' terminal on the starter motor, to up around the battery area - then briefly touching the bare end of that wire to the battery positive terminal should operate the starter motor without any problems if my guess is correct. Have the ignition key sitting in the 'Run' position and the engine should start. Be aware though that you're bypassing the clutch switch (manual transmission) or transmission range sensor (auto transmission) so be very careful to be in Park or Neutral whilst doing this or else you could inadvertantly start the engine whilst it's in gear.

Forum member 12Ounce will know exactly what I'm talking about because I know that one of his vehicles (not an Escort) is particularly sensitive to battery voltage, and the starter relay refuses to operate below a certain voltage threshold so he has installed a permanent remote starting lead, which connects at one end to the starter motor 'S' terminal, with the other end being insulated and safely secured near the battery for occasional use in the event that the regular starting circuit should malfunction.

Once again, sorry for the lengthy explanation - I'll put all of that into a nutshell just in case you're confused:

Down at the starter motor you should have three connections - the two big, heavy-duty connections at the 'B' and 'M' terminals, and the much smaller, thin diameter cable connecting to the little 'S' terminal. Take a length of wire and connect one end to that 'S' terminal, and leave the other end up tied out of harm's way up near the battery. Then check that you are in Neutral (manual transmission) or Neutral or Park (auto transmission) and then turn the ignition switch to the Run position. Next, briefly touch that wire to the battery positive terminal, and your starter should run and the engine should start.

If the starter motor does indeed then operate normally and the engine starts, then you will have to set about locating the problem with the vehicle's main 12V feed. Good luck, and let me know if you don't follow any of that.

Well said Selectron. That's what I was gonna say, but couldn't figure out how to do it.

Ahh, that is very good advice, thank you! I'm going to try that today. It never really occured to me there could be a problem with the main feed. I'll get that done today and report back what I find.

Have you tried kicking it?
It doesn't always help, but it usually makes me feel better...

Nope, haven't tried kicking it yet. I usually prefer a sledge hammer.. Hahaha

Anyways, on a serious note, I did what was suggested, and ran a wire from the positive down to the starter, and I still get the same problem, just clicks. I do have a question though, If I hook up my voltmeter to my battery, what should the voltage be? I'm just barely getting 10V's. Also, I'm not sure how accurate he was, but I had my dad hold the voltmeter leads onto the battery while I try starting it to see what kind of voltage drop I'm getting, and he said it shot down to 3.5V's, but it was very erratic.. I'll check this myself later to see if I really am getting that big of a drop when trying to start.

*EDIT*

Ok, I just went out there to verify what the voltage is dropping to when I try to start it, and it actually drops down to around 1.5-2.0V's when I try to start it, with the occasional short crank of the engine before it stops and just clicks. When I got out of the car, I looked at the battery, and it looks like it has a crack right by the positive battery terminal, it was bubbling a little bit.

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Battery voltages on a healthy vehicle should be something like this: after sitting overnight, the voltage measured directly onto the battery terminals should be around 12.6V - that's before you start the engine. Then after starting the engine, that should rise to thirteen-point-something volts with the engine idling, typically around 13.6V, then when revving the engine that should climb to around 14.2V and then hold steady at that voltage regardless of any further increase in engine speed.

The significance of those three readings is as follows:

The first reading (12.6V after sitting overnight) tells you that you don't have any excessive current drains, draining the battery overnight. It also tells you that the battery is, at first glance anyway, capable of holding a reasonable level of charge.

The second reading of thirteen-point-something volts with the engine idling tells you that your alternator is producing output current, also that the rectifier (which converts the alternator's AC output to DC) would appear to be functional, and lastly it indicates that the battery is receiving charging current.

The third reading of around 14.2V when revving the engine tells you that the voltage regulator is functioning correctly, and clamping the voltage at the correct level regardless of further increase in engine speed. The precise voltage level will vary slightly depending on vehicle make and model but it will always be around 14.2 to 14.4V.

Those tests are obviously neither extensive nor conclusive but they are a good initial indicator as to the health of the charging system.

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A lead-acid car battery contains six cells, connected in series, each cell having a nominal voltage of 2.1V when fully charged, and therefore giving a total battery voltage of 12.6V (6 x 2.1) so a reading of around 10V immediately suggests that one cell has failed internally within the battery. However, given that the car still malfunctions even with a known good battery, I think we can safely rule out the dead cell theory.

It's possible that you could have a short-circuit somewhere which has been draining your battery and causing it to only measure 10V but with that level of current drain it would be blowing fuses like crazy so I don't think that's the answer either.

It seems likely to me that the problem is in your alternator.

Even if you had no output from the alternator - a broken belt for example - the car should have started without any problem when you fitted the known good battery. The fact that it still malfunctioned even with the good battery suggests that there's a fault in the alternator assembly (comprising the alternator, rectifier, and voltage regulator) which is allowing the battery to discharge heavily back in the direction of the alternator, leaving insufficient voltage and current available to start the vehicle.

I'd pull the alternator and have it bench-tested. I'm in the UK so I don't know for sure but from what I read on the forums, Autozone and other places will do a free bench-test.

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As for your battery - the fact that it reads 10V and then falls to around 2V when trying to start the vehicle, indicates that it's completely flat and so you should hook it up to a bench charger and let it recharge fully. If the crack is above the level of the electrolyte then you may be able to clean the area and seal the crack with epoxy adhesive and the battery should remain useable. If the crack is below the electrolyte level then that's a problem because you may have lost acid, in which case the battery capacity will likely be seriously reduced. I'd put the battery on charge for the moment though and concentrate on the alternator.

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Thanks for the advice, I've actually fully charged this battery twice. It does the same thing. When I fully charge the battery, and put it in the car, it always cranks the engine very slowly, but never fast enough to start. However after a few trys, there isn't enough juice and it just makes the solenoid click.

If your battery is basically healthy, and if, even when fully charged, it can only crank the engine very slowly then that suggests that there's a heavy current drain diverting current away from the place where you need it, which of course is at the starter motor. You can't measure the current because your multimeter will have a maximum capability of 10A or thereabouts and whatever the current drain is, it must be way in excess of 10 amps to be causing those symptoms. The only way to measure that would be with a clamp meter but not many folks have access to one of those. Just on the off-chance that you do know somebody who has one though, the place to measure would be at the engine grounding strap.

As I said, if that level of current was being lost into the vehicle's main electrical system then it would be blowing fuses so I don't think it's going in that direction - not unless you had a short-circuit somewhere prior to the main fuse but in that case you would be seeing smoke and getting a burning smell so I don't see that as being likely either.

The starter has been bench-tested and it's in good working order so that doesn't have an internal short-circuit so as I said earlier, the only other place where that level of current could flow to without blowing fuses would be into the alternator.

I'm making a couple of assumptions there, which is that your battery is basically healthy, and also that the Chevy battery was healthy and in a good state of charge when you tried that in the vehicle. If the Chevy battery was good and fully charged but still gave the same symptoms, then looking at things from an electrical point of view I have to suspect the alternator because I can't see any alternative except for a partially-seized engine, but since there hasn't been any hint of a mechanical problem I'd say your best course of action would be to get the alternator tested.

I could go along with an engine being seized. Will it turn over with a socket on the front pulley?

Hmm, I haven't actually tried to turn the engine manually with a wrench.The starter can turn it occasionally when it comes right off of the battery charger. If the engine was seized though, would the lights still all cut out as I try to start the car? The headlights also dim drastically to the point where they almost shut off.. Pretty much the same as if I tried to start the car with an almost dead battery.

The effects would be the same as the starter being locked if the engine was seized. I know you don't want it to be this as the fault, but it is a possibility. I hope I am wrong. Oh! If it is turning a liltle bit it wouldn't be that. I stand corrected. Dave

How about oil level I once worked on a car that the guy overfilled the pan to the point where the crank was unable to turn due to the oil being under the pistons. Same goes for fluid on the top of pistons(combustion chamber) although highly unlikely i have seen it happen before. Could still be starter like suggested before an amp clamp on the ground side would show an excess amperage draw.

Just read first post. Sounds more like an electrical problem. Haven't read the rest of the post(too long).Maybe someone already suggested this but have you done a voltage drop test on both the power and ground sides for both the alternator and starter?

Rerplace both battery cables. Make sure the negative terminal is well grounded to the engine block. Wire that deals with heavy currents deteriorates over time.