Bought some NOS on the weekend....
Spec2 Girl
10-06-2002, 04:48 PM
Actually it was just NOS brand Octane Booster. Gotcha! :angel: :D :p
http://files.automotiveforums.com/uploads/292147octanebooster.jpg
http://files.automotiveforums.com/uploads/292147octanebooster.jpg
replicant_008
10-06-2002, 04:56 PM
... you'd considered becoming a dentist....
Spec2 Girl
10-06-2002, 05:29 PM
Can’t really see me as a dentist! :p
We figure that if I mount the empty bottle where it’s clearly visible its got to be worth some extra HP. :D :p :hehehe:
We figure that if I mount the empty bottle where it’s clearly visible its got to be worth some extra HP. :D :p :hehehe:
JD@af
10-06-2002, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by Spec2 Girl
Can’t really see me as a dentist! :p
We figure that if I mount the empty bottle where it’s clearly visible its got to be worth some extra HP. :D :p :hehehe: LOL!! Good call! I think that the pasenger side front A-pillar should be worth a good 15 horses easy :right:
Can’t really see me as a dentist! :p
We figure that if I mount the empty bottle where it’s clearly visible its got to be worth some extra HP. :D :p :hehehe: LOL!! Good call! I think that the pasenger side front A-pillar should be worth a good 15 horses easy :right:
Spec2 Girl
10-06-2002, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by JD@af
LOL!! Good call! I think that the pasenger side front A-pillar should be worth a good 15 horses easy :right: That's a great spot for it. :D But do you think if I put it inside the front windscreen that it could be worth even more. I was aiming for about another 25 horsies at least! :D :p :hehehe:
LOL!! Good call! I think that the pasenger side front A-pillar should be worth a good 15 horses easy :right: That's a great spot for it. :D But do you think if I put it inside the front windscreen that it could be worth even more. I was aiming for about another 25 horsies at least! :D :p :hehehe:
JD@af
10-06-2002, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by Spec2 Girl
That's a great spot for it. :D But do you think if I put it inside the front windscreen that it could be worth even more. I was aiming for about another 25 horsies at least! :D :p :hehehe: Hell, why not just bolt the sucker right to the hood!!! I bet that would be a solid 50 whp :ylsuper
That's a great spot for it. :D But do you think if I put it inside the front windscreen that it could be worth even more. I was aiming for about another 25 horsies at least! :D :p :hehehe: Hell, why not just bolt the sucker right to the hood!!! I bet that would be a solid 50 whp :ylsuper
Spec2 Girl
10-06-2002, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by JD@af
Hell, why not just bolt the sucker right to the hood!!! I bet that would be a solid 50 whp :ylsuper SOLD! :D Must get out the hammer and nails tonight. Just have to hope someone else doesn't steal it when it's parked. :devil:
:hehehe: :D :p
Hell, why not just bolt the sucker right to the hood!!! I bet that would be a solid 50 whp :ylsuper SOLD! :D Must get out the hammer and nails tonight. Just have to hope someone else doesn't steal it when it's parked. :devil:
:hehehe: :D :p
primera man
10-06-2002, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by Spec2 Girl
Actually it was just NOS brand Octane Booster. Gotcha! :angel: :D :p
http://files.automotiveforums.com/uploads/292147octanebooster.jpg
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/ylsuper.gif ...you caught me out !!
Actually it was just NOS brand Octane Booster. Gotcha! :angel: :D :p
http://files.automotiveforums.com/uploads/292147octanebooster.jpg
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/ylsuper.gif ...you caught me out !!
speediva
10-06-2002, 09:29 PM
Spec2: Don't scare me like that!!! Here I thought you'd gone to the Dumb Side!!! :eek:
YellowMaranello
10-06-2002, 09:37 PM
Why not just stick it on top of your antenna? That way people can see it from many cars back when your stuck in traffic.
Spec2 Girl
10-06-2002, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by YellowMaranello
Why not just stick it on top of your antenna? That way people can see it from many cars back when your stuck in traffic. My antenna's never up. I'm always listening to CDs. :D
and tangie. :hehehe: :p
Why not just stick it on top of your antenna? That way people can see it from many cars back when your stuck in traffic. My antenna's never up. I'm always listening to CDs. :D
and tangie. :hehehe: :p
taranaki
10-06-2002, 10:57 PM
I'm gonna get some Ferarri screenwash.feel the raw power!:silly2: :silly2:
Spec2 Girl
10-06-2002, 11:01 PM
Originally posted by taranaki
I'm gonna get some Ferarri screenwash.feel the raw power!:silly2: :silly2: Might have to get some of that as well. If I keep going I'll have 1000HP soon! :hehehe: :p
I'm gonna get some Ferarri screenwash.feel the raw power!:silly2: :silly2: Might have to get some of that as well. If I keep going I'll have 1000HP soon! :hehehe: :p
taranaki
10-06-2002, 11:13 PM
Slap me,Andy,I should at least be able to spell Ferrari:o
Spec2 Girl
10-06-2002, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by taranaki
Slap me,Andy,I should at least be able to spell Ferrari:o Remind me next time you're up. ;) :D :p
Slap me,Andy,I should at least be able to spell Ferrari:o Remind me next time you're up. ;) :D :p
taranaki
10-06-2002, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by Spec2 Girl
Remind me next time you're up. ;) :D :p
Well if you promised,I'd make a special trip!!!:D :D :D
Remind me next time you're up. ;) :D :p
Well if you promised,I'd make a special trip!!!:D :D :D
Spec2 Girl
10-06-2002, 11:41 PM
Originally posted by taranaki
Well if you promised,I'd make a special trip!!!:D :D :D I promise! ;) :D
Well if you promised,I'd make a special trip!!!:D :D :D I promise! ;) :D
replicant_008
10-07-2002, 02:02 AM
Maybe you could mount it on the bonnet just in front of the driver's side wipers like one of those extra big rev counters some of the RiceBoys have when they can't have them on the dash. (What do they do when it rains?)
Oh and you need a big red switch on the console - the bigger the better, preferably with a plastic guard over it with a label saying..."NOS injection system." It doesn't have to be connected to anything except you get bonus HP if the switch flashes with a red or a blue light...
Oh and you need a big red switch on the console - the bigger the better, preferably with a plastic guard over it with a label saying..."NOS injection system." It doesn't have to be connected to anything except you get bonus HP if the switch flashes with a red or a blue light...
Ssom
10-07-2002, 02:13 AM
replicant_008
10-07-2002, 02:22 AM
The only 'Nawz' I feel after seeing that pic is one involving a red plastic bucket or the porcelain phone.:apuke:
Spec2 Girl
10-07-2002, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by replicant_008
Maybe you could mount it on the bonnet just in front of the driver's side wipers like one of those extra big rev counters some of the RiceBoys have when they can't have them on the dash. (What do they do when it rains?)
Oh and you need a big red switch on the console - the bigger the better, preferably with a plastic guard over it with a label saying..."NOS injection system." It doesn't have to be connected to anything except you get bonus HP if the switch flashes with a red or a blue light... I like your thinking. :hehehe: :hehehe: :p
Maybe you could mount it on the bonnet just in front of the driver's side wipers like one of those extra big rev counters some of the RiceBoys have when they can't have them on the dash. (What do they do when it rains?)
Oh and you need a big red switch on the console - the bigger the better, preferably with a plastic guard over it with a label saying..."NOS injection system." It doesn't have to be connected to anything except you get bonus HP if the switch flashes with a red or a blue light... I like your thinking. :hehehe: :hehehe: :p
Deakins
10-07-2002, 04:28 PM
Octane Booster? Someone care to explain wtf that is?
Spec2 Girl
10-07-2002, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by Deakins
Octane Booster? Someone care to explain wtf that is? It increases the octane in petrol. In Japan they get about 100 octane straight from the pump. Over here in NZ we get 98 at the highest. I usually put Synergy 8000 petrol (guaranteed minimum Octane of 98) into my car but last week I put BP Ultimate (guaranteed minimum Octane of 97.5). My car didn’t seem to have as much go as it normally does so we figured that we may have got a bad batch of Ultimate petrol at 97.5 octane and if we normally get good batches of Synergy 8000 (say 98.5 octane) then I would be down by a point. Octane booster is added to your fuel tank to increase the octane by as much as 3 points, therefore making up for the loss. It seems like a small amount but it can make a big difference in performance for Japanese cars that are used to having very high octane petrol.
Does that make sense????
Octane Booster? Someone care to explain wtf that is? It increases the octane in petrol. In Japan they get about 100 octane straight from the pump. Over here in NZ we get 98 at the highest. I usually put Synergy 8000 petrol (guaranteed minimum Octane of 98) into my car but last week I put BP Ultimate (guaranteed minimum Octane of 97.5). My car didn’t seem to have as much go as it normally does so we figured that we may have got a bad batch of Ultimate petrol at 97.5 octane and if we normally get good batches of Synergy 8000 (say 98.5 octane) then I would be down by a point. Octane booster is added to your fuel tank to increase the octane by as much as 3 points, therefore making up for the loss. It seems like a small amount but it can make a big difference in performance for Japanese cars that are used to having very high octane petrol.
Does that make sense????
Deakins
10-07-2002, 06:39 PM
Yes, thank you.
A bit strange though, making cars that can't run on the fuel available in most parts of the world. Do you, or anyone else for that matter; know what it is [name, formula]?
A bit strange though, making cars that can't run on the fuel available in most parts of the world. Do you, or anyone else for that matter; know what it is [name, formula]?
Spec2 Girl
10-07-2002, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by Deakins
Yes, thank you.
A bit strange though, making cars that can't run on the fuel available in most parts of the world. Do you, or anyone else for that matter; know what it is [name, formula]? That's the problem though. It's an import. In Japan the high octane fuel is readily available. I just know now that I will only fill up with Synergy 8000 in the future as my car runs great on that. I have got better fuel economy on the BP Ultimate but I would much rather have better performance and less economy. :D
As for the name/formula, I'm not sure what you mean? :confused:
Yes, thank you.
A bit strange though, making cars that can't run on the fuel available in most parts of the world. Do you, or anyone else for that matter; know what it is [name, formula]? That's the problem though. It's an import. In Japan the high octane fuel is readily available. I just know now that I will only fill up with Synergy 8000 in the future as my car runs great on that. I have got better fuel economy on the BP Ultimate but I would much rather have better performance and less economy. :D
As for the name/formula, I'm not sure what you mean? :confused:
replicant_008
10-07-2002, 07:26 PM
Our fuel availability in New Zealand involves some history and some legacies of government policy.
Historically, NZ has one refinery @ Marsden Point which was constructed as a Joint Venture between the Government and Oil Companies. To help maintain our foreign currency reserves, the design was adopted for it to utilise lower grade petroleum stock and use a process to 'crack' the hydro-carbons into usable fuel.
Initially, the refinery produced 87 octane (regular) and 96 Octane (super) grades of leaded fuel. Tri-Ethyl Lead was widely used to boost the RON octane rating of the product worldwide and to prevent VSR (valve seat recession).
In response to the unpopularity of 87 octane (regular), in the early to mid 80s a new unleaded regular (91 RON) was introduced. This had two benefits - reduced lead content (lead was still present from parts of the refining process) and the ability to import vehicles designed for unleaded regular fuel (leaded fuel affects oxygen sensors for a start and has a completely different combustion signature).
In the late 90s, NZ had still not weaned itself off leaded 96 octane petrol which prevented several problems environmentally and in the availability of increasing sophisticated engines requiring a higher octane unleaded fuel.
So the government regulated the supply so 96 octane was to be unleaded (no added tri-ethyl lead). This lead to some problems - one was that the stock coming out of Marsden initially struggled to make 96 octane unleaded consistently without adding lots of other undesirable stuff and that 96 octane (which is slightly higher than Euro 3-star ie 95 RON) was lower than Euro 4-Star (98 RON) and Premium Unleaded Petrol (PULP) in Japan (98 to 100 RON).
Oh and older vehicle need to run an additive to prevent VSR too...
So lots of high performance and turbo-charged vehicles struggle with 96 PULP here. As a result, BP and Mobil introduced imported stocks of 98 RON from refineries in Asia and Europe. Unfortunately, there are very few places you can buy 98 RON outside of Auckland and no-one I know of carries 91, 96 and 98 RON at the same station.
Octane boosters are usually made up of solutions of short chain hydro-carbons but I've even seen some overseas that are tri-ethyl lead!
Ironically, we could have made the bloody 98 RON stuff ourselves as NZ had the first natural gas to gasoline plant (built again with Government Funds) at Motonui in the Taranaki which made very high grade unleaded fuel.
Unfortunately, for us motorists here - the Government sold the plant and it now makes methanol from natural gas instead.
Historically, NZ has one refinery @ Marsden Point which was constructed as a Joint Venture between the Government and Oil Companies. To help maintain our foreign currency reserves, the design was adopted for it to utilise lower grade petroleum stock and use a process to 'crack' the hydro-carbons into usable fuel.
Initially, the refinery produced 87 octane (regular) and 96 Octane (super) grades of leaded fuel. Tri-Ethyl Lead was widely used to boost the RON octane rating of the product worldwide and to prevent VSR (valve seat recession).
In response to the unpopularity of 87 octane (regular), in the early to mid 80s a new unleaded regular (91 RON) was introduced. This had two benefits - reduced lead content (lead was still present from parts of the refining process) and the ability to import vehicles designed for unleaded regular fuel (leaded fuel affects oxygen sensors for a start and has a completely different combustion signature).
In the late 90s, NZ had still not weaned itself off leaded 96 octane petrol which prevented several problems environmentally and in the availability of increasing sophisticated engines requiring a higher octane unleaded fuel.
So the government regulated the supply so 96 octane was to be unleaded (no added tri-ethyl lead). This lead to some problems - one was that the stock coming out of Marsden initially struggled to make 96 octane unleaded consistently without adding lots of other undesirable stuff and that 96 octane (which is slightly higher than Euro 3-star ie 95 RON) was lower than Euro 4-Star (98 RON) and Premium Unleaded Petrol (PULP) in Japan (98 to 100 RON).
Oh and older vehicle need to run an additive to prevent VSR too...
So lots of high performance and turbo-charged vehicles struggle with 96 PULP here. As a result, BP and Mobil introduced imported stocks of 98 RON from refineries in Asia and Europe. Unfortunately, there are very few places you can buy 98 RON outside of Auckland and no-one I know of carries 91, 96 and 98 RON at the same station.
Octane boosters are usually made up of solutions of short chain hydro-carbons but I've even seen some overseas that are tri-ethyl lead!
Ironically, we could have made the bloody 98 RON stuff ourselves as NZ had the first natural gas to gasoline plant (built again with Government Funds) at Motonui in the Taranaki which made very high grade unleaded fuel.
Unfortunately, for us motorists here - the Government sold the plant and it now makes methanol from natural gas instead.
Ssom
10-08-2002, 01:58 AM
so......Generally- if I was taking the Jetta out of Auckland and I ran out of gas, then I'm screwed- The VW only runs on 98- it only JUST handle 96 and it treats 91 like its diesel- one of the crap parts of having a high compression ratio :( :(
replicant_008
10-08-2002, 02:11 AM
You have three.. hang on four options...
1 Stay in Auckland:D
2 Drive directly to Wellington (and carry enough gas to get there) you can buy 98 RON at selected stations there
3 Carry some Octane Booster like the NOS product
4 Get your ignition 'retarded' (no I'm serious - it's the opposite of advanced no that still sounds bad... have the ignition timing advance reduced slightly, there that's better) so it will fire later in the compression stroke. This will result in a little loss in power and efficiency in theory but given you can hardly run on 96RON it would be better. A garage should be able to do this or someone with a timing light who knows how to use it and adjust ignition advance.
Considering the age of your vehicle I find it odd that your car wasn't originally tuned to run on 96RON.
1 Stay in Auckland:D
2 Drive directly to Wellington (and carry enough gas to get there) you can buy 98 RON at selected stations there
3 Carry some Octane Booster like the NOS product
4 Get your ignition 'retarded' (no I'm serious - it's the opposite of advanced no that still sounds bad... have the ignition timing advance reduced slightly, there that's better) so it will fire later in the compression stroke. This will result in a little loss in power and efficiency in theory but given you can hardly run on 96RON it would be better. A garage should be able to do this or someone with a timing light who knows how to use it and adjust ignition advance.
Considering the age of your vehicle I find it odd that your car wasn't originally tuned to run on 96RON.
Ssom
10-08-2002, 02:16 AM
Originally posted by replicant_008
You have three.. hang on four options...
1 Stay in Auckland:D
2 Drive directly to Wellington (and carry enough gas to get there) you can buy 98 RON at selected stations there
3 Carry some Octane Booster like the NOS product
4 Get your ignition 'retarded' (no I'm serious - it's the opposite of advanced no that still sounds bad... have the ignition timing advance reduced slightly, there that's better) so it will fire later in the compression stroke. This will result in a little loss in power and efficiency in theory but given you can hardly run on 96RON it would be better. A garage should be able to do this or someone with a timing light who knows how to use it and adjust ignition advance.
Considering the age of your vehicle I find it odd that your car wasn't originally tuned to run on 96RON.
1.- Bwahahahahahahahahah
2. Yeah.........I like Wellington *thinks of home*
3. How much is it spec2???
4.hmmmmmmmm...........maybe.......But I don't like the loss in power part :(:(
And- I guess it has to do with it being designed to run on the high-quality Euro fuel :confused:
You have three.. hang on four options...
1 Stay in Auckland:D
2 Drive directly to Wellington (and carry enough gas to get there) you can buy 98 RON at selected stations there
3 Carry some Octane Booster like the NOS product
4 Get your ignition 'retarded' (no I'm serious - it's the opposite of advanced no that still sounds bad... have the ignition timing advance reduced slightly, there that's better) so it will fire later in the compression stroke. This will result in a little loss in power and efficiency in theory but given you can hardly run on 96RON it would be better. A garage should be able to do this or someone with a timing light who knows how to use it and adjust ignition advance.
Considering the age of your vehicle I find it odd that your car wasn't originally tuned to run on 96RON.
1.- Bwahahahahahahahahah
2. Yeah.........I like Wellington *thinks of home*
3. How much is it spec2???
4.hmmmmmmmm...........maybe.......But I don't like the loss in power part :(:(
And- I guess it has to do with it being designed to run on the high-quality Euro fuel :confused:
taranaki
10-08-2002, 02:23 AM
Originally posted by replicant_008
You have three.. hang on four options...
1 Stay in
Option 5...only go out when there's a strong tail wind:D
You have three.. hang on four options...
1 Stay in
Option 5...only go out when there's a strong tail wind:D
Ssom
10-08-2002, 02:26 AM
Originally posted by taranaki
Option 5...only go out when there's a strong tail wind:D
Yes........You really should consider tis option Mr T:finger: :finger: :finger:
Option 5...only go out when there's a strong tail wind:D
Yes........You really should consider tis option Mr T:finger: :finger: :finger:
primera man
10-08-2002, 02:33 AM
Ive got two words for ya.....AV GAS :devil: :devil: :devil:
taranaki
10-08-2002, 02:37 AM
Originally posted by primera man
Ive got two words for ya.....AV GAS :devil: :devil: :devil:
two for you...STEAM TRACTION!
:silly2: :silly2: :silly2:
Ive got two words for ya.....AV GAS :devil: :devil: :devil:
two for you...STEAM TRACTION!
:silly2: :silly2: :silly2:
replicant_008
10-08-2002, 02:38 AM
Moss
Seriously, if you have a 1990 VW Jetta (unless it was imported into NZ second hand and even then I'm puzzled) it would have to have been tuned for 96RON Leaded . We didn't have 98 RON here until last year. Switching to 96 RON PULP would have made no difference (in fact it should have been better!).
I'd suggest that you probably need a tune up, some new plugs and possibly some new ignition leads. 98 RON actually burns slower than 96RON which is why the ignition is advanced for it. Why anyone in their right mind would tune a car of 1990 vintage without a turbo for this kind of timing is beyond my comprehension...
I can't see how it would have been designed to run on 98 RON in Europe because nearly every car unless it's forced induction or something really exotic like a Porsche/Ferrari/BMW M3 (or a very quick bike) etc, would conceivably run on nothing more than Euro 3-star quite adequately.
Seriously, if you have a 1990 VW Jetta (unless it was imported into NZ second hand and even then I'm puzzled) it would have to have been tuned for 96RON Leaded . We didn't have 98 RON here until last year. Switching to 96 RON PULP would have made no difference (in fact it should have been better!).
I'd suggest that you probably need a tune up, some new plugs and possibly some new ignition leads. 98 RON actually burns slower than 96RON which is why the ignition is advanced for it. Why anyone in their right mind would tune a car of 1990 vintage without a turbo for this kind of timing is beyond my comprehension...
I can't see how it would have been designed to run on 98 RON in Europe because nearly every car unless it's forced induction or something really exotic like a Porsche/Ferrari/BMW M3 (or a very quick bike) etc, would conceivably run on nothing more than Euro 3-star quite adequately.
Ssom
10-08-2002, 02:41 AM
Originally posted by replicant_008
Moss
Seriously, if you have a 1990 VW Jetta (unless it was imported into NZ second hand and even then I'm puzzled) it would have to have been tuned for 96RON Leaded . We didn't have 98 RON here until last year. Switching to 96 RON PULP would have made no difference (in fact it should have been better!).
I'd suggest that you probably need a tune up, some new plugs and possibly some new ignition leads. 98 RON actually burns slower than 96RON which is why the ignition is advanced for it. Why anyone in their right mind would tune a car of 1990 vintage without a turbo for this kind of timing is beyond my comprehension...
I can't see how it would have been designed to run on 98 RON in Europe because nearly every car unless it's forced induction or something really exotic like a Porsche/Ferrari/BMW M3 (or a very quick bike) etc, would conceivably run on nothing more than Euro 3-star quite adequately.
Well- to qote the owners manual- 90hp 1.8 Carb and fuel injected models- run on 98 RON- though your local VAG dealer can tune it to run on 95 RON-:confused: :confused:
Moss
Seriously, if you have a 1990 VW Jetta (unless it was imported into NZ second hand and even then I'm puzzled) it would have to have been tuned for 96RON Leaded . We didn't have 98 RON here until last year. Switching to 96 RON PULP would have made no difference (in fact it should have been better!).
I'd suggest that you probably need a tune up, some new plugs and possibly some new ignition leads. 98 RON actually burns slower than 96RON which is why the ignition is advanced for it. Why anyone in their right mind would tune a car of 1990 vintage without a turbo for this kind of timing is beyond my comprehension...
I can't see how it would have been designed to run on 98 RON in Europe because nearly every car unless it's forced induction or something really exotic like a Porsche/Ferrari/BMW M3 (or a very quick bike) etc, would conceivably run on nothing more than Euro 3-star quite adequately.
Well- to qote the owners manual- 90hp 1.8 Carb and fuel injected models- run on 98 RON- though your local VAG dealer can tune it to run on 95 RON-:confused: :confused:
sarujin
10-08-2002, 02:45 AM
hmm, that was quite interesting replicant.
But I'm happy I get to cruise round with my 106.9c fuel. Go 91 unleaded, its the cheapest and i get over 500km to 40litres! or 7.5l per 100km!!
:D
I never relised imports really had these fuel problems, but that defintly means I never want to buy an import ever!
sarujin
But I'm happy I get to cruise round with my 106.9c fuel. Go 91 unleaded, its the cheapest and i get over 500km to 40litres! or 7.5l per 100km!!
:D
I never relised imports really had these fuel problems, but that defintly means I never want to buy an import ever!
sarujin
primera man
10-08-2002, 02:54 AM
Originally posted by taranaki
two for you...STEAM TRACTION!
:silly2: :silly2: :silly2:
*Shakes head and leaves thread*
two for you...STEAM TRACTION!
:silly2: :silly2: :silly2:
*Shakes head and leaves thread*
replicant_008
10-08-2002, 03:11 AM
Actually P Man is correct AV Gas has a very high octane rating (which is why we use it in the race car!)
Downside is that it's full of lead (fouls the oxy sensor in no time flat), it's not good for you (lead and other nasties evidently) and it's actually illegal to use on the road except if you buy a road user licence (there's no road taxes on Aviation Fuel) which is the funny little things that diesels have to show on their windscreens along with the rego and WOF here in NZ. Some goes for #1 Race Fuel (which I secretly suspect is just AV Gas which is too old to sell for aviation purposes!)
Moss I think you should get someone to tune it to 96RON it will save you money in the long run.
Sarujin is correct too. 91 RON is great stuff, I actually think it's better than 96 RON and possibly better than 98 RON in many respects.
Unless you've got forced induction or had to plane the head 91 RON is fine - it's cheaper and if your car was designed to run on it and tuned to use it, it will burn faster and more completely than anything else.
Interestingly, the manufacturer's claims for the manual NZ S15 200 SX are 184kw and manual Australian 200SX S15 are only about 147kw mainly because in Australia even 95 RON is not available widely outside urban areas and the cars are hobbled slightly in boost and timing to get by on 91 RON.
Downside is that it's full of lead (fouls the oxy sensor in no time flat), it's not good for you (lead and other nasties evidently) and it's actually illegal to use on the road except if you buy a road user licence (there's no road taxes on Aviation Fuel) which is the funny little things that diesels have to show on their windscreens along with the rego and WOF here in NZ. Some goes for #1 Race Fuel (which I secretly suspect is just AV Gas which is too old to sell for aviation purposes!)
Moss I think you should get someone to tune it to 96RON it will save you money in the long run.
Sarujin is correct too. 91 RON is great stuff, I actually think it's better than 96 RON and possibly better than 98 RON in many respects.
Unless you've got forced induction or had to plane the head 91 RON is fine - it's cheaper and if your car was designed to run on it and tuned to use it, it will burn faster and more completely than anything else.
Interestingly, the manufacturer's claims for the manual NZ S15 200 SX are 184kw and manual Australian 200SX S15 are only about 147kw mainly because in Australia even 95 RON is not available widely outside urban areas and the cars are hobbled slightly in boost and timing to get by on 91 RON.
Ssom
10-08-2002, 03:32 AM
Originally posted by replicant_008
Actually P Man is correct AV Gas has a very high octane rating (which is why we use it in the race car!)
Downside is that it's full of lead (fouls the oxy sensor in no time flat), it's not good for you (lead and other nasties evidently) and it's actually illegal to use on the road except if you buy a road user licence (there's no road taxes on Aviation Fuel) which is the funny little things that diesels have to show on their windscreens along with the rego and WOF here in NZ. Some goes for #1 Race Fuel (which I secretly suspect is just AV Gas which is too old to sell for aviation purposes!)
Moss I think you should get someone to tune it to 96RON it will save you money in the long run.
Sarujin is correct too. 91 RON is great stuff, I actually think it's better than 96 RON and possibly better than 98 RON in many respects.
Unless you've got forced induction or had to plane the head 91 RON is fine - it's cheaper and if your car was designed to run on it and tuned to use it, it will burn faster and more completely than anything else.
Interestingly, the manufacturer's claims for the manual NZ S15 200 SX are 184kw and manual Australian 200SX S15 are only about 147kw mainly because in Australia even 95 RON is not available widely outside urban areas and the cars are hobbled slightly in boost and timing to get by on 91 RON.
I should get it done- but they said VAG dealer- and Bill Tapper, Continental and Giltrap will all charge me $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$ to have it done- on top of that- I only have my Jetta until I can afford to trade up to an E36 320i :( - so I'm not sure if it is worth it in the long run :(- because there won't be a long run :(
Actually P Man is correct AV Gas has a very high octane rating (which is why we use it in the race car!)
Downside is that it's full of lead (fouls the oxy sensor in no time flat), it's not good for you (lead and other nasties evidently) and it's actually illegal to use on the road except if you buy a road user licence (there's no road taxes on Aviation Fuel) which is the funny little things that diesels have to show on their windscreens along with the rego and WOF here in NZ. Some goes for #1 Race Fuel (which I secretly suspect is just AV Gas which is too old to sell for aviation purposes!)
Moss I think you should get someone to tune it to 96RON it will save you money in the long run.
Sarujin is correct too. 91 RON is great stuff, I actually think it's better than 96 RON and possibly better than 98 RON in many respects.
Unless you've got forced induction or had to plane the head 91 RON is fine - it's cheaper and if your car was designed to run on it and tuned to use it, it will burn faster and more completely than anything else.
Interestingly, the manufacturer's claims for the manual NZ S15 200 SX are 184kw and manual Australian 200SX S15 are only about 147kw mainly because in Australia even 95 RON is not available widely outside urban areas and the cars are hobbled slightly in boost and timing to get by on 91 RON.
I should get it done- but they said VAG dealer- and Bill Tapper, Continental and Giltrap will all charge me $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$ to have it done- on top of that- I only have my Jetta until I can afford to trade up to an E36 320i :( - so I'm not sure if it is worth it in the long run :(- because there won't be a long run :(
Moppie
10-08-2002, 06:10 AM
A few corrections and additions to this interesting discisscusion on NZ fuel.
Race Gas is infact expired AV Gas. Due to the effects of evaporation etc the octane rating will decrease in any fuel, not so much of a problem for automotive fuels, but could be deadly in an aircraft. As a result if a tank of Av Gas is not empty'd or topped from a certian point with a certian time frame, then the fuel is sucked back out, and sold on to unsupecting Race car owners as "race gas".
Av Gas is generaly cheaper, and freasher, and so better for the car. But unless you have a piliots licence, or know someone who does, or are very good at talking the local areo club out of some, it can be hard to get.
The 91, 96 and 98 grades of fuel sold in NZ by Shell, Caltex (also Gas) Mobil and BP all comes from the same refinerys, and is shipped in the same ships, and stored in the same storage tanks. Buying from one or the other makes no differnce in the quality of the fuel you will recieve.
However! The minimum standard stated at the pumps must only be maintianed under law at the storage depot. Once it leaves the depot there is no legal requirment for the fuel to retian its stated octane rating.
All the fuels in NZ use a large amount of solvents to boost the octane level. Over time these solvents in the fuel break down, or seperate from the fuel and evaporate. If a tanker driver fills his truck on a very hot day, in Tauranga, then drives all the way to Auckland with a vent partialy open, and then spends a day stuck in Auckland traffic before he makes his last stop, it its not uncommon for the last stop on the run to get fuel that is several octane points lower than when it left Tauranga.
The same thing occurs to fuel sitting in a stations tanks for a long period of time.
Hence why you sometimes literaly get a bad tank of gas.
Most people have such tame cars that they won't notice the differnce.
But a performance Turbo'd car like a GTS-t skyline could easily be effected, and I know my car certianly dosn't run as well as it could when it gets a bad fill.
Most Jap imports although they run on 100+ in Japan will infact run perfectly well on 91 here in NZ.
The reason being they only run such high octane in Japan becasue it is a more pure fuel, and burns with less impuritys. The idea was also to encourage manufactors to make higher compression engines that achieved a more complete and therefore cleaner fuel burn.
Unforunatly, since most of the cars sold in Japan are also sold in some form else where in the world, the manufactors generaly use the same engine across the globe. Meaning most of the Japanese imports we get use an engine internaly identical to the cars sold localy. i.e. they have the same comp ratio etc.
Exceptions are many of the high performance models not sold outside Japan. e.g the Skylines, DOHC VTEC Honda's etc. These cars do make use of the higher octane fuel, but to make more power, not less emissions.
But your average Toyota Corolla or Nissan Primera will perfectly well on 91. (infact since its a higher quality fuel, it may run better).
And I have never heard of leaded fuel causing problems with O2 sensors, its intirly possible it did play havoc with early ones, but the real reason it's bad to put in an unleaded car is what it will do the catylitic converter.
The lead particles in the exhaust are rapidly filtered out by the converter, and with in a very short space of time will clogg it to the piont its no longer effective, and will eventualy stop the car from running.
The 200SX S15 and the last model WRX were both sold in Aussie in a detuned form. The reason being not the inavliablity of 96 octane fuel, but its incrediably poor quality. For what ever reason it suffers very badly from evaporation, and loses it stated octane rating very quickly. That is assuming it left the depot as 96.
This is why I stay away from NZ gull stations. As they get all thier fuel from Australia.
Moss you bought a jetta, now suffer! It should actualy run quite well on 96, and adjusting the time is childs play. Go to tech books and buy the shop manaul for the car, the get your hands dirty one weekend and replace the plugs and adjust the timeing.
and finnaly, to end the rant.
OCTANE BOOSTERS DON'T WORK.
Sorry spec, but I spent a lot of money and time trying to find one that did. For use in both my own old Triumph, and for use in a race car.
I also did a lot of resurch, and found several articles that tested products avliable on the NZ and Aussie markets. (done by the NZ AA, and various performance car mags).
All showed that no more than a .5 increase in octane rating occured. IMO its not enough to be worth the cost. (it turns out the "points" most claim to increase, are just that. Points of one octane. i.e NOS brand increase's octane by 4 points. So it goes from 96 to 96.4 :( )
And from seat of my pants tests I found no differnce at all in the cars performance, or the way the engine ran.
The only fuel additive I have found to have any effect is Morays UCL.
After removing the head on the Triumph I know it worked as a perfect lead substitute, (Valve Master is infact an injector cleaner) and it also does an excellent job of cleaing the fuel system (injectors etc). I run it through the Civic about 2-3 times a year and it dosnt complian.
Im sure I forgot something, but thats enough of a rant and probable thread killer for now.
:frog:
Race Gas is infact expired AV Gas. Due to the effects of evaporation etc the octane rating will decrease in any fuel, not so much of a problem for automotive fuels, but could be deadly in an aircraft. As a result if a tank of Av Gas is not empty'd or topped from a certian point with a certian time frame, then the fuel is sucked back out, and sold on to unsupecting Race car owners as "race gas".
Av Gas is generaly cheaper, and freasher, and so better for the car. But unless you have a piliots licence, or know someone who does, or are very good at talking the local areo club out of some, it can be hard to get.
The 91, 96 and 98 grades of fuel sold in NZ by Shell, Caltex (also Gas) Mobil and BP all comes from the same refinerys, and is shipped in the same ships, and stored in the same storage tanks. Buying from one or the other makes no differnce in the quality of the fuel you will recieve.
However! The minimum standard stated at the pumps must only be maintianed under law at the storage depot. Once it leaves the depot there is no legal requirment for the fuel to retian its stated octane rating.
All the fuels in NZ use a large amount of solvents to boost the octane level. Over time these solvents in the fuel break down, or seperate from the fuel and evaporate. If a tanker driver fills his truck on a very hot day, in Tauranga, then drives all the way to Auckland with a vent partialy open, and then spends a day stuck in Auckland traffic before he makes his last stop, it its not uncommon for the last stop on the run to get fuel that is several octane points lower than when it left Tauranga.
The same thing occurs to fuel sitting in a stations tanks for a long period of time.
Hence why you sometimes literaly get a bad tank of gas.
Most people have such tame cars that they won't notice the differnce.
But a performance Turbo'd car like a GTS-t skyline could easily be effected, and I know my car certianly dosn't run as well as it could when it gets a bad fill.
Most Jap imports although they run on 100+ in Japan will infact run perfectly well on 91 here in NZ.
The reason being they only run such high octane in Japan becasue it is a more pure fuel, and burns with less impuritys. The idea was also to encourage manufactors to make higher compression engines that achieved a more complete and therefore cleaner fuel burn.
Unforunatly, since most of the cars sold in Japan are also sold in some form else where in the world, the manufactors generaly use the same engine across the globe. Meaning most of the Japanese imports we get use an engine internaly identical to the cars sold localy. i.e. they have the same comp ratio etc.
Exceptions are many of the high performance models not sold outside Japan. e.g the Skylines, DOHC VTEC Honda's etc. These cars do make use of the higher octane fuel, but to make more power, not less emissions.
But your average Toyota Corolla or Nissan Primera will perfectly well on 91. (infact since its a higher quality fuel, it may run better).
And I have never heard of leaded fuel causing problems with O2 sensors, its intirly possible it did play havoc with early ones, but the real reason it's bad to put in an unleaded car is what it will do the catylitic converter.
The lead particles in the exhaust are rapidly filtered out by the converter, and with in a very short space of time will clogg it to the piont its no longer effective, and will eventualy stop the car from running.
The 200SX S15 and the last model WRX were both sold in Aussie in a detuned form. The reason being not the inavliablity of 96 octane fuel, but its incrediably poor quality. For what ever reason it suffers very badly from evaporation, and loses it stated octane rating very quickly. That is assuming it left the depot as 96.
This is why I stay away from NZ gull stations. As they get all thier fuel from Australia.
Moss you bought a jetta, now suffer! It should actualy run quite well on 96, and adjusting the time is childs play. Go to tech books and buy the shop manaul for the car, the get your hands dirty one weekend and replace the plugs and adjust the timeing.
and finnaly, to end the rant.
OCTANE BOOSTERS DON'T WORK.
Sorry spec, but I spent a lot of money and time trying to find one that did. For use in both my own old Triumph, and for use in a race car.
I also did a lot of resurch, and found several articles that tested products avliable on the NZ and Aussie markets. (done by the NZ AA, and various performance car mags).
All showed that no more than a .5 increase in octane rating occured. IMO its not enough to be worth the cost. (it turns out the "points" most claim to increase, are just that. Points of one octane. i.e NOS brand increase's octane by 4 points. So it goes from 96 to 96.4 :( )
And from seat of my pants tests I found no differnce at all in the cars performance, or the way the engine ran.
The only fuel additive I have found to have any effect is Morays UCL.
After removing the head on the Triumph I know it worked as a perfect lead substitute, (Valve Master is infact an injector cleaner) and it also does an excellent job of cleaing the fuel system (injectors etc). I run it through the Civic about 2-3 times a year and it dosnt complian.
Im sure I forgot something, but thats enough of a rant and probable thread killer for now.
:frog:
primera man
10-08-2002, 06:13 AM
Originally posted by replicant_008
Some goes for #1 Race Fuel (which I secretly suspect is just AV Gas which is too old to sell for aviation purposes!)
Bingo.
My mate from work who runs a high performance V8 gets it from the fueling station in Feilding and was told the same thing. Its just down the road from Manfield, so they make a killing by selling it there from what i have been told.
Some goes for #1 Race Fuel (which I secretly suspect is just AV Gas which is too old to sell for aviation purposes!)
Bingo.
My mate from work who runs a high performance V8 gets it from the fueling station in Feilding and was told the same thing. Its just down the road from Manfield, so they make a killing by selling it there from what i have been told.
Moppie
10-08-2002, 06:17 AM
Originally posted by primera man
Bingo.
My mate from work who runs a high performance V8 gets it from the fueling............
a bit slow there Pman. read above. ;)
Bingo.
My mate from work who runs a high performance V8 gets it from the fueling............
a bit slow there Pman. read above. ;)
primera man
10-08-2002, 06:23 AM
Originally posted by Moppie
a bit slow there Pman. read above. ;)
I had just hit the Submit button and the email came through about 5secs later about your reply......well i guess you have to beat me at something :p
a bit slow there Pman. read above. ;)
I had just hit the Submit button and the email came through about 5secs later about your reply......well i guess you have to beat me at something :p
Spec2 Girl
10-08-2002, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by Moppie
Most Jap imports although they run on 100+ in Japan will infact run perfectly well on 91 here in NZ.
Try telling that to the FTO. It hated 96 and I would never have even dared to put 91 in it. Same goes for the Skyline.
As for my car, I still say it runs better on Synergy 8000. Another friend has also said this. His car has better fuel economy on BP Ultimate but better performance on Synergy 8000.
We are also wondering if it’s not just the octane in the petrol but also how it burns. Raf thinks he may have heard unburnt fuel coming out the back of the exhaust which we have never had before with the Synergy petrol. I guess the only way to tell is to back to Synergy when my tank is a bit emptier and see what happens.
Most Jap imports although they run on 100+ in Japan will infact run perfectly well on 91 here in NZ.
Try telling that to the FTO. It hated 96 and I would never have even dared to put 91 in it. Same goes for the Skyline.
As for my car, I still say it runs better on Synergy 8000. Another friend has also said this. His car has better fuel economy on BP Ultimate but better performance on Synergy 8000.
We are also wondering if it’s not just the octane in the petrol but also how it burns. Raf thinks he may have heard unburnt fuel coming out the back of the exhaust which we have never had before with the Synergy petrol. I guess the only way to tell is to back to Synergy when my tank is a bit emptier and see what happens.
replicant_008
10-08-2002, 04:49 PM
I'm busier than a one-armed brick layer in Kabul @ the moment so I'll get back to you on Moppie's post soon.
Spec2 Girl
10-08-2002, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by replicant_008
Actually P Man is correct AV Gas has a very high octane rating (which is why we use it in the race car!)
Downside is that it's full of lead (fouls the oxy sensor in no time flat)We have recently found out that the previous owner ran my car with AV Gas. We've wondered for a while if the Oxygen sensor might be stuffed. Trying to hunt down another one is proving to be a right royal pain in the ass! :(
Actually P Man is correct AV Gas has a very high octane rating (which is why we use it in the race car!)
Downside is that it's full of lead (fouls the oxy sensor in no time flat)We have recently found out that the previous owner ran my car with AV Gas. We've wondered for a while if the Oxygen sensor might be stuffed. Trying to hunt down another one is proving to be a right royal pain in the ass! :(
Moppie
10-08-2002, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by Spec2 Girl
We have recently found out that the previous owner ran my car with AV Gas. We've wondered for a while if the Oxygen sensor might be stuffed. Trying to hunt down another one is proving to be a right royal pain in the ass! :(
Normally a bad O2 sensor will throw an error code on the ECU.
And for the record your car should have 2 and maybe 3.
But the Panda will be able to check for a code very easily.
Whats most likely is the cat is clogged. Unless of course you've removed it. :D
The lead actualy reacts with the heavy metals in the catylitic converter, and the whole lot melts into a solid mess.
As for feeling a differnce between all the differnt petrols around Auckland, most of it is the same differnce the average Civic owner feels when he puts on a cold intake. Its psychological.
There will be a differnce between running 91 or 96, and on some cars running 98 (I should imagine rafs car prefers 98, but then with the hp its putting out it would love av gas even more). But any differnce based on the gas station you bought it from would be in your head. Unless you got unlucky and filled on a bad batch of fuel. (but that can happen anywhere)
The FTO was also sold new in the UK, where they run perfectly on I think its 95 octane.
and Once rep has finnished laying his Bricks, I bet he finds 1 correction in my post, and 2 clarifications. :D (and numerous gramatical errors :p )
Oh, and while Im on a roll.
Octane is measured two ways.
One is RON, and the other is MON. Ill be damned if I can remember which is which however, one tests the fuels level of auto ignition under pressure. i.e. the amount of heat and pressure required for the fuel to auto ignite. This is the most acurate measurement.
I believe there is also a chemical anylsis compenent in this test, so that fuels with high levels of solvents like those sold in NZ get thier true octane rating measured. (i.e. the effect of the solvent is calculated)
And the other test they run the fuel through a variable compresion test engine and gradualy increase the compresion ratio untill the engine knocks. Then use a table to match the CR of the engine at the time of knock with the octane rating of the fuel.
It is by far the least acurate, and does not allow for how differnt engine designs may react to the same fuel.
It also means that oil companies can add large amounts of solvents to the fuel that will work as an octane booster in the test engine, but not in a road car engine.
and I know the chemists out there can correct my mistakes in the above.
We have recently found out that the previous owner ran my car with AV Gas. We've wondered for a while if the Oxygen sensor might be stuffed. Trying to hunt down another one is proving to be a right royal pain in the ass! :(
Normally a bad O2 sensor will throw an error code on the ECU.
And for the record your car should have 2 and maybe 3.
But the Panda will be able to check for a code very easily.
Whats most likely is the cat is clogged. Unless of course you've removed it. :D
The lead actualy reacts with the heavy metals in the catylitic converter, and the whole lot melts into a solid mess.
As for feeling a differnce between all the differnt petrols around Auckland, most of it is the same differnce the average Civic owner feels when he puts on a cold intake. Its psychological.
There will be a differnce between running 91 or 96, and on some cars running 98 (I should imagine rafs car prefers 98, but then with the hp its putting out it would love av gas even more). But any differnce based on the gas station you bought it from would be in your head. Unless you got unlucky and filled on a bad batch of fuel. (but that can happen anywhere)
The FTO was also sold new in the UK, where they run perfectly on I think its 95 octane.
and Once rep has finnished laying his Bricks, I bet he finds 1 correction in my post, and 2 clarifications. :D (and numerous gramatical errors :p )
Oh, and while Im on a roll.
Octane is measured two ways.
One is RON, and the other is MON. Ill be damned if I can remember which is which however, one tests the fuels level of auto ignition under pressure. i.e. the amount of heat and pressure required for the fuel to auto ignite. This is the most acurate measurement.
I believe there is also a chemical anylsis compenent in this test, so that fuels with high levels of solvents like those sold in NZ get thier true octane rating measured. (i.e. the effect of the solvent is calculated)
And the other test they run the fuel through a variable compresion test engine and gradualy increase the compresion ratio untill the engine knocks. Then use a table to match the CR of the engine at the time of knock with the octane rating of the fuel.
It is by far the least acurate, and does not allow for how differnt engine designs may react to the same fuel.
It also means that oil companies can add large amounts of solvents to the fuel that will work as an octane booster in the test engine, but not in a road car engine.
and I know the chemists out there can correct my mistakes in the above.
Spec2 Girl
10-08-2002, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by Moppie
The FTO was also sold new in the UK, where they run perfectly on I think its 95 octane.
The FTO was also sold new in NZ but only the GR model not the GPX (MIVEC) and considering that I usually got about 600kms out of a tank of 98 and when we were in the Hawkes Bay and couldn’t get 98 and I had to put 96 in it, we had to stop and fill up after about 300kms due to the fact that we had to give it a lot more stick to actually get decent performance out of it. Once we put 98 back into it, it ran perfectly again. Don’t know quite how that could be called psychological! :p
But anyway, I've used almost half a tank of the BP Ultimate now so on the weekend I'll fill up with Synergy and see. It might just be a coincidence with the petrol but there’s only way to find out. If the sluggishness continues I'll see about the Oxygen sensor.
The FTO was also sold new in the UK, where they run perfectly on I think its 95 octane.
The FTO was also sold new in NZ but only the GR model not the GPX (MIVEC) and considering that I usually got about 600kms out of a tank of 98 and when we were in the Hawkes Bay and couldn’t get 98 and I had to put 96 in it, we had to stop and fill up after about 300kms due to the fact that we had to give it a lot more stick to actually get decent performance out of it. Once we put 98 back into it, it ran perfectly again. Don’t know quite how that could be called psychological! :p
But anyway, I've used almost half a tank of the BP Ultimate now so on the weekend I'll fill up with Synergy and see. It might just be a coincidence with the petrol but there’s only way to find out. If the sluggishness continues I'll see about the Oxygen sensor.
Spec2 Girl
10-08-2002, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by Moppie
There will be a differnce between running 91 or 96, and on some cars running 98 (I should imagine rafs car prefers 98, but then with the hp its putting out it would love av gas even more)We have the same cars. The only difference is I have a full catless exhaust and Raf has a catback. His is manual, mine’s auto.
There will be a differnce between running 91 or 96, and on some cars running 98 (I should imagine rafs car prefers 98, but then with the hp its putting out it would love av gas even more)We have the same cars. The only difference is I have a full catless exhaust and Raf has a catback. His is manual, mine’s auto.
replicant_008
10-08-2002, 09:43 PM
Starting with the most recent posts:
Auto and Manual versions of some Nissan products (as well as some other manufacturers) run different calibrations for their air-fuel maps. Usually, this arises from an intention to better match the engine to the characterisitics of the transmission or in the interests of drivetrain longevity. For instance, some Volvos have ECUs that inhibit torque in lower gears in the manual tranny's to protect them from damage and the auto and manual S15 run different maps in the ECUs too - ostensibly to change the torque over certain rev ranges.
Lead buildup on the Oxy Sensor can produce off-calibration readings before the error codes appear from the ECU. Based on some experience with using AV Gas in the race car, we used identical Bosch Oxy Sensors, checked their initial calibrations and then did a comparison at hot idle after one had run a race meeting. We found a significant difference in the readings between the two sensors (one that had been in a box and the other which had been subjected to a couple of tanks of AV Gas). Whether this was due to the heat cycles or lead deposits, we aren't completely certain but before we switched to AV Gas (instead of 96 PULP) we didn't get these levels of variation.
And Moppie is absolutely correct about leaded fuel and catalysts - they don't mix AT ALL. A damaged catalyst element will reduce performance and economy.
I largely agree with Moppie about psychosomantic perceptions. Given most cars operate with knock sensors and rarely run at 100% injector duty under full load (except maybe on a race track like Pukekohe's backstraight for 20-30 seconds of wide open throttle per lap) then the majority of us aren't going to notice much. Fuel economy variations has so many factors that its difficult to assess as well.
In forced induction engines or very high compression NA engines, there will be a variance due to the ECU limiting boost or altering ignition timing due to knock but most won't folk won't notice.
The other way to achieve 'knock' for a given engine is alter the advance/retard of the ignition curve. I've seen a few dyno runs where the advance is increased having a small but measurable difference in output particularly in forced induction donks - this works up to the point of knock (which is a precursor to undesirable detonation).
It's just one of the variables along with boost, injector duration/timing (to fiddle with air/fuel ratios) that we amend on the engine management software when we are dyno'ing the race engine.
On the subject of additives, they can have an effect on burn characteristics (and effective RON) so they can 'work' depending on the composition, dilution and base stock. There's plenty of literature on the effective of adding ethanol, toluene and some other equal nasty stuff to pump fuel to alter its characteristics. This is why 'exotic' fuels and additives are banned in the MSNZ and FIA rules because of the performance variation and because some of this stuff is just plain hazardous and dangerous.
On the subject of 91, 96 and 98 RON - most of the 91 and 96 RON stock comes from the NZ Refining Company Plant at Marsden Point thru the pipeline terminating at the Wiri Oil Terminal (incidentally the same pipe carries down diesel and A1 Jet Fuel). Having done some consulting work there (in my dim past) I can tell you that this is where the vast majority of Auckland's supplies originate from. I'd imagine I'm one of the few folk to have been on top of the tanks who isn't an employee of either the refining company or the oil terminal itself.
And yes Virginia, they are essentially the same base stock for all the oil companies (they jointly own the NZ Refining Company). There is a tiny bit of variation in the fact some of the companies add detergents and other additives when the tankers are filled but I would agree with Moppie that the variations for these two grades are pretty minimal between companies - in fact I think a chemist would have trouble identifying the differences except with a spectrometer.
On the subject of the 98 RON stock - this is not made @ Marsden Point, I can confirm that the BP Ultimate Stock is manufactured at the BP Refinery in Perth, Australia and that the Synergy 8000 stock is refined overseas (though I can't confirm the location possibly near Singapore) as well. Both are shipped here from overseas and so are produced from different condensate and refineries and have a different chemical signature.
I understand from my sources in Australia that the BP Ultimate/Synergy 8000/Shell Optimax 98RON stock sold in Australia (and imported here) is significantly better than the 95RON stuff sold as Shell UltraHi, Synergy 6000 etc because the 98 RON has to comply with mandated EC requirements (it's exported there) for benzene, solvent and sulphur levels and also why it's comparatively a lot more expensive to make and buy.
On the subject of performance, you may have gathered from my posts to Moss that I don't think it makes much difference EXCEPT for turbo/super charged forced induction engines OR very high performance and high compression NA engines.
The only proviso is that I don't particularly like the 96 RON stock produced @ Marsden Point due to its very high benzene and sulphur (not to mention the solvent) content which is the only reason I run the 98 RON stock in the Mondeo to reduce the tailpipe emissions (and I get it cheaper than the pump price anyway).
Pour a small quantity of 96RON and 98RON on a piece of concrete on a sunny day to appreciate what I mean about the 96RON stock - the 96RON stock leaves far more unevaporated residue than the 98RON stock. In fact, I'd run the 91 RON stock before I'd put the 96RON stock into my car and let the knock sensor tell the ECU retard the ignition.
And the AV Gas becoming Race Gas... I always suspected this was so (I actually have seen some relabelled) but I do know that some secret squirrel race gas some folk have used here was never AV Gas (it came in a sealed drum from a European Petroleum company's Motorsport Support Division and has some very unusual characteristics incl the ability to rot cotton rags!).
Getting toward the end...
Valvemaster is a detergent but according to the literature it is also has VSR-reducing qualities as well. The Moray's additive that you are using Moppie is also a very good VSR preventative.
There... now I can get back to bricklaying.
Auto and Manual versions of some Nissan products (as well as some other manufacturers) run different calibrations for their air-fuel maps. Usually, this arises from an intention to better match the engine to the characterisitics of the transmission or in the interests of drivetrain longevity. For instance, some Volvos have ECUs that inhibit torque in lower gears in the manual tranny's to protect them from damage and the auto and manual S15 run different maps in the ECUs too - ostensibly to change the torque over certain rev ranges.
Lead buildup on the Oxy Sensor can produce off-calibration readings before the error codes appear from the ECU. Based on some experience with using AV Gas in the race car, we used identical Bosch Oxy Sensors, checked their initial calibrations and then did a comparison at hot idle after one had run a race meeting. We found a significant difference in the readings between the two sensors (one that had been in a box and the other which had been subjected to a couple of tanks of AV Gas). Whether this was due to the heat cycles or lead deposits, we aren't completely certain but before we switched to AV Gas (instead of 96 PULP) we didn't get these levels of variation.
And Moppie is absolutely correct about leaded fuel and catalysts - they don't mix AT ALL. A damaged catalyst element will reduce performance and economy.
I largely agree with Moppie about psychosomantic perceptions. Given most cars operate with knock sensors and rarely run at 100% injector duty under full load (except maybe on a race track like Pukekohe's backstraight for 20-30 seconds of wide open throttle per lap) then the majority of us aren't going to notice much. Fuel economy variations has so many factors that its difficult to assess as well.
In forced induction engines or very high compression NA engines, there will be a variance due to the ECU limiting boost or altering ignition timing due to knock but most won't folk won't notice.
The other way to achieve 'knock' for a given engine is alter the advance/retard of the ignition curve. I've seen a few dyno runs where the advance is increased having a small but measurable difference in output particularly in forced induction donks - this works up to the point of knock (which is a precursor to undesirable detonation).
It's just one of the variables along with boost, injector duration/timing (to fiddle with air/fuel ratios) that we amend on the engine management software when we are dyno'ing the race engine.
On the subject of additives, they can have an effect on burn characteristics (and effective RON) so they can 'work' depending on the composition, dilution and base stock. There's plenty of literature on the effective of adding ethanol, toluene and some other equal nasty stuff to pump fuel to alter its characteristics. This is why 'exotic' fuels and additives are banned in the MSNZ and FIA rules because of the performance variation and because some of this stuff is just plain hazardous and dangerous.
On the subject of 91, 96 and 98 RON - most of the 91 and 96 RON stock comes from the NZ Refining Company Plant at Marsden Point thru the pipeline terminating at the Wiri Oil Terminal (incidentally the same pipe carries down diesel and A1 Jet Fuel). Having done some consulting work there (in my dim past) I can tell you that this is where the vast majority of Auckland's supplies originate from. I'd imagine I'm one of the few folk to have been on top of the tanks who isn't an employee of either the refining company or the oil terminal itself.
And yes Virginia, they are essentially the same base stock for all the oil companies (they jointly own the NZ Refining Company). There is a tiny bit of variation in the fact some of the companies add detergents and other additives when the tankers are filled but I would agree with Moppie that the variations for these two grades are pretty minimal between companies - in fact I think a chemist would have trouble identifying the differences except with a spectrometer.
On the subject of the 98 RON stock - this is not made @ Marsden Point, I can confirm that the BP Ultimate Stock is manufactured at the BP Refinery in Perth, Australia and that the Synergy 8000 stock is refined overseas (though I can't confirm the location possibly near Singapore) as well. Both are shipped here from overseas and so are produced from different condensate and refineries and have a different chemical signature.
I understand from my sources in Australia that the BP Ultimate/Synergy 8000/Shell Optimax 98RON stock sold in Australia (and imported here) is significantly better than the 95RON stuff sold as Shell UltraHi, Synergy 6000 etc because the 98 RON has to comply with mandated EC requirements (it's exported there) for benzene, solvent and sulphur levels and also why it's comparatively a lot more expensive to make and buy.
On the subject of performance, you may have gathered from my posts to Moss that I don't think it makes much difference EXCEPT for turbo/super charged forced induction engines OR very high performance and high compression NA engines.
The only proviso is that I don't particularly like the 96 RON stock produced @ Marsden Point due to its very high benzene and sulphur (not to mention the solvent) content which is the only reason I run the 98 RON stock in the Mondeo to reduce the tailpipe emissions (and I get it cheaper than the pump price anyway).
Pour a small quantity of 96RON and 98RON on a piece of concrete on a sunny day to appreciate what I mean about the 96RON stock - the 96RON stock leaves far more unevaporated residue than the 98RON stock. In fact, I'd run the 91 RON stock before I'd put the 96RON stock into my car and let the knock sensor tell the ECU retard the ignition.
And the AV Gas becoming Race Gas... I always suspected this was so (I actually have seen some relabelled) but I do know that some secret squirrel race gas some folk have used here was never AV Gas (it came in a sealed drum from a European Petroleum company's Motorsport Support Division and has some very unusual characteristics incl the ability to rot cotton rags!).
Getting toward the end...
Valvemaster is a detergent but according to the literature it is also has VSR-reducing qualities as well. The Moray's additive that you are using Moppie is also a very good VSR preventative.
There... now I can get back to bricklaying.
Moppie
10-09-2002, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by replicant_008
There... now I can get back to bricklaying.
umm actualy! put down that morter for a second.
For how long has Marsden point been making unleaded 96? :confused:
When the change to unleaded was first made Marsden point was unable to produce it, and would have required a multi million dollar up grade to be able to. One of the biggest critizisims leveled agaisnt the government at the time of the change was the fact that we would have to import all of the 96 unleaded fuel from over seas refinerys.
(note Marsden point did supply most of the old leaded 96 fuel for NZ)
So unless someone has convinced the oil companys to spend several million dollars they don't have then all the 96 unleaded sold in NZ is still imported. Normally from a refinery in Singapore.
Incidently the first shipment of 96PULP, and several latter ones with the very high toluene content that caused so much trouble came from a plant in a singapore that had screwed up a batch of fuel, and was storing it as no one else in the world wanted to buy it. The NZ oil companys thus got it for a steal.
From what I know at the moment about 70% of the 91 PULP and about 100% of the desiel sold in NZ comes from Marsden point, while the rest including all the 96PULP comes from over seas.
(there has recently been talk of importing low sulpher desiel for supply to the Auckland region, or mixing the marsden point product with imported product, or upgrading marsden point so that it can supply the whole country with low sulpher desiel, and 96PULP, but again it requires money that none of the oil companys have)
And I am most interested in your findings regarding the O2 sensors.
I honestly would not have thought the lead particles would be big enough to interfer with the sensor, and I wonder if prehaps a similar chemical reaction to the catylitic converters is instead occuring, and either fusing a thin layer of lead to the sensor, or otherwise affecting its accuracy. (but then simple carbon build up from a dirty engine would I imagine have a similar effect)
and one last note
NEVER RELY ON A KNOCK SENSOR TO RETARD THE IGNITION
They will only detect knock at partial throttle openings, and only if it occures at a certian frequency. Knock at wide open throttle when it is the most dangerous does not generate a reliably detectable signature, and is often missed by even the most sophisticated sensor. The modern ones work by detecting knock before wide open throttle, and retarding ignition and sometimes richening the fuel mix early. But if knock only occurs at wide open throttle it will be missed.
This the problem the early WRX's had in Aussie. Subaru Australia assumed the knock sensor would adjust the engine when the owner was forced to fill the car on low grade fuel in some of the more remote areas. But knock only occured at wide open thorttle, and was not detected by the knock sensor. The result was a lot of cracked pistons etc, and a lot of expensive warrenty claims by unhappy owners.
For the next model (the last model, not the current one) Subaru detuned the WRX's sold in Aussie, running them on less boost, and with retarded timeing. Its why all the Aussie car mags showed the HSV's to be faster in a straight line, while the Kiwi Mags showed the WRX was faster. Here in NZ we got the full Jap spec WRX.
The current model WRX runs a better shaped combustion chamber, as well as differnt cam and ignition timeing, and will handle much lower octane fuel that the previous model.
And about Autos, Most manufactors not only run differnt ignition timeing, and fuel ratios on the Auto models, but many also run much milder cam profiles with more mid range torque at the expense of top end power.
It's something thats been done since the Auto g/box was put into mass production.
A classic example is the old kent and pinto powered Ford Escorts and Cortinas. The Auto versions run a differnt cam profile than the manual cars. The same is true for the Triumph 2500TC, and many of the old 6cyl Rovers.
Modern examples include B16 series powered Hondas, all the Autos are limited to 150hp in the Civic, while the Manaul versions have between 160-185. (the integra with the B18c is limited to about 170hp I think, while the manuals have between 180-205hp)
And the Nissan SR20 engines in the Primera/bluebird/Sentra etc use differnt intake cams for the Auto equiped cars.
The reason is as rep mentioned very simple. Auto gearboxs work better at low to mid range RPM and so the engines are tuned to supply power accordingly.
There... now I can get back to bricklaying.
umm actualy! put down that morter for a second.
For how long has Marsden point been making unleaded 96? :confused:
When the change to unleaded was first made Marsden point was unable to produce it, and would have required a multi million dollar up grade to be able to. One of the biggest critizisims leveled agaisnt the government at the time of the change was the fact that we would have to import all of the 96 unleaded fuel from over seas refinerys.
(note Marsden point did supply most of the old leaded 96 fuel for NZ)
So unless someone has convinced the oil companys to spend several million dollars they don't have then all the 96 unleaded sold in NZ is still imported. Normally from a refinery in Singapore.
Incidently the first shipment of 96PULP, and several latter ones with the very high toluene content that caused so much trouble came from a plant in a singapore that had screwed up a batch of fuel, and was storing it as no one else in the world wanted to buy it. The NZ oil companys thus got it for a steal.
From what I know at the moment about 70% of the 91 PULP and about 100% of the desiel sold in NZ comes from Marsden point, while the rest including all the 96PULP comes from over seas.
(there has recently been talk of importing low sulpher desiel for supply to the Auckland region, or mixing the marsden point product with imported product, or upgrading marsden point so that it can supply the whole country with low sulpher desiel, and 96PULP, but again it requires money that none of the oil companys have)
And I am most interested in your findings regarding the O2 sensors.
I honestly would not have thought the lead particles would be big enough to interfer with the sensor, and I wonder if prehaps a similar chemical reaction to the catylitic converters is instead occuring, and either fusing a thin layer of lead to the sensor, or otherwise affecting its accuracy. (but then simple carbon build up from a dirty engine would I imagine have a similar effect)
and one last note
NEVER RELY ON A KNOCK SENSOR TO RETARD THE IGNITION
They will only detect knock at partial throttle openings, and only if it occures at a certian frequency. Knock at wide open throttle when it is the most dangerous does not generate a reliably detectable signature, and is often missed by even the most sophisticated sensor. The modern ones work by detecting knock before wide open throttle, and retarding ignition and sometimes richening the fuel mix early. But if knock only occurs at wide open throttle it will be missed.
This the problem the early WRX's had in Aussie. Subaru Australia assumed the knock sensor would adjust the engine when the owner was forced to fill the car on low grade fuel in some of the more remote areas. But knock only occured at wide open thorttle, and was not detected by the knock sensor. The result was a lot of cracked pistons etc, and a lot of expensive warrenty claims by unhappy owners.
For the next model (the last model, not the current one) Subaru detuned the WRX's sold in Aussie, running them on less boost, and with retarded timeing. Its why all the Aussie car mags showed the HSV's to be faster in a straight line, while the Kiwi Mags showed the WRX was faster. Here in NZ we got the full Jap spec WRX.
The current model WRX runs a better shaped combustion chamber, as well as differnt cam and ignition timeing, and will handle much lower octane fuel that the previous model.
And about Autos, Most manufactors not only run differnt ignition timeing, and fuel ratios on the Auto models, but many also run much milder cam profiles with more mid range torque at the expense of top end power.
It's something thats been done since the Auto g/box was put into mass production.
A classic example is the old kent and pinto powered Ford Escorts and Cortinas. The Auto versions run a differnt cam profile than the manual cars. The same is true for the Triumph 2500TC, and many of the old 6cyl Rovers.
Modern examples include B16 series powered Hondas, all the Autos are limited to 150hp in the Civic, while the Manaul versions have between 160-185. (the integra with the B18c is limited to about 170hp I think, while the manuals have between 180-205hp)
And the Nissan SR20 engines in the Primera/bluebird/Sentra etc use differnt intake cams for the Auto equiped cars.
The reason is as rep mentioned very simple. Auto gearboxs work better at low to mid range RPM and so the engines are tuned to supply power accordingly.
replicant_008
10-09-2002, 01:42 AM
Whoops... did I say that! I stand corrected there Moppie (maybe I should stick to bricks).
96RON Unleaded isn't made here - the PENEX isometerisation upgrade never happened I think it was $120m + change. Dunno what I was thinking there - yes 96RON does come from somewhere near Singapore and the solvents (which include toluene and benzene) are what leaves that residue. Marsden Point (as well as several other plants) have a future issue with the Kyoto protocol as well due to the increased standards for fuel quality being proposed here and across the ditch.
As for running on 91 RON temporarily I'd agree with the partial throttle opening advice. The Mondy's with Duratec HEs are tuned to run on the stuff but the Duratec VEs are recommended to run 96RON and according to Ford NZ can tolerate 91 RON - as with everything if it isn't ideal I wouldn't be trying to explore the boundaries...
Incidentally, detonated forged alloy JE pistons make very light, very interesting and very expensive paperweights (we now have 8 in the collection so far - this was the result of an ignition issue the second time and a dud engine build the first time - well that's what we think anyway).
We haven't isolated the oxy sensor issue - we think it could be heat cycles, chemical reaction or possibly that we were ran different boost settings and advance BEFORE we went to avgas. As I said we aren't sure because other parameters changed.
96RON Unleaded isn't made here - the PENEX isometerisation upgrade never happened I think it was $120m + change. Dunno what I was thinking there - yes 96RON does come from somewhere near Singapore and the solvents (which include toluene and benzene) are what leaves that residue. Marsden Point (as well as several other plants) have a future issue with the Kyoto protocol as well due to the increased standards for fuel quality being proposed here and across the ditch.
As for running on 91 RON temporarily I'd agree with the partial throttle opening advice. The Mondy's with Duratec HEs are tuned to run on the stuff but the Duratec VEs are recommended to run 96RON and according to Ford NZ can tolerate 91 RON - as with everything if it isn't ideal I wouldn't be trying to explore the boundaries...
Incidentally, detonated forged alloy JE pistons make very light, very interesting and very expensive paperweights (we now have 8 in the collection so far - this was the result of an ignition issue the second time and a dud engine build the first time - well that's what we think anyway).
We haven't isolated the oxy sensor issue - we think it could be heat cycles, chemical reaction or possibly that we were ran different boost settings and advance BEFORE we went to avgas. As I said we aren't sure because other parameters changed.
Automotive Network, Inc., Copyright ©2026