89 Toronado will not start


oil slick
03-07-2007, 05:05 AM
I have read your web site before and found it very informative. I need some help.
I am a pretty good shade tree mechanic. I have removed and replaced cylinder heads on several different types of cars. over the past 20 years or so and have had great success. I started the 89 toronado 3.8L automatic one morning and it was smoking white smoke really bad. My son, who is the primary driver, said he hadn't noticed it before. Checked the coolant and determined that there was oil in it. To make a long story short, replaced the head gaskets and intake manifold gasket. Tried to start it, and it would not start, but would backfire through the intake manifold (EGR) every now and then. Double checked the plug wires and they are connected correctly. Checked all plugs and got spark. Sombody told me that they found a different cylinder location chart that was different than the one in the Haynes manual. Looking from front of car, pullies are to left, front bank (radiator) is from left to right 1,3,5 and the back left to right is 2,4,6, firing order 1,6,5,4,3,2. They said it was backwards. I found that the camshft sensor magnet had broken. Pulled timing cover, replaced both sensor and magnet. Ensured that the crankshaft and camshaft dimples on them lined up. Did a check on the crankshaft position sensor and camshaft senor. The REF voltage is 12 vdc on both. When read sig volts get a 5 vdc, even with plug disconnected. When installed, the camshaft stays at 5 vdc until magnet passes sensor and then it goes to 0 vdc and on the cranckshaft it is the same. I get both 3 and 18 on/off cycles, looks good, replaced it anyway Checked all electrical plugs, vaccuum hoses, EGR, and even put in a new oxy sensor and new spark plugs gapped at .060. I get spark, gas and air but wont start.
Thanks.
Oil slick

maxwedge
03-08-2007, 12:59 PM
You have fuel pressure I assume, but do the injectors pulse?

oil slick
03-08-2007, 06:39 PM
How do I check if they are pulsating?
Thanks
Oil Slick

maxwedge
03-10-2007, 02:10 PM
Get a noid lite and connect it to the injectors one at a time and see if it flashes when cranking.

oil slick
03-20-2007, 02:15 PM
I had to take a break. This is the latest.
1. Could not find a noid tester, got some strange looks though. Took a meter and read 12 v on the injectors with key on. Attached test light to other side of injector and 12v battery terminal. They test light flashed as i cranked the engine. All checked good.
2. The resistance of the coil pack was a few ohms high, so i replaced it.
3. Checked the ignition module by attaching a test light between terminals, all flashed rapidly and consistantly.
3. Had the valve covers off and all looks ok as i hand crank engine. Removed the timing chain cover to double check, the cam and crank shafts are aligned properly TDC.
4. Did another dry compression check, and one with oil added to the cylinder
1. 120/150
3. 105/145
5. 90/150
2. 125/205
4. 135/170
6. 130/150
The engine will backfire sometimes through the intake and blow the vac hose.
I was thinking the ignition module might be bad, but since the injectors are firing, the ecm must be getting signals from the ign module.
5. I know the compression readings are pretty bad,(engine has 103,000mi), but will they prevent the engine from starting? I had a mechanic say yes. The specs I have say min is 100 psi. What do you think?
oil slick

maxwedge
03-20-2007, 02:44 PM
Compression is not the issue here will it start with carb cleaner sprayed into the intake? Got the proper fuel pressure? Recheck your wire to coil firing order,does it sputter or anything? Check this link for the firing order, http://autozone.com/servlet/UiBroker?ForwardPage=/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/15/c3/a1/0900823d8015c3a1.jsp

oil slick
03-20-2007, 05:10 PM
I'll get some cleaner and try it tomorrow. I will pickup a new fuel guage tomorrow, mine might be inaccurate, due to age and handling. It does nothing. Turns over without a spit or sputter, as if there was no spark and then just backfire through th intake. I looked at the circuit diagrams under the AZ diagnosis section. My coils wires are not the same as the diagram.I have Yel/blk going to coil4, Grn/Blk to coil 6 and Blu/Blk to 2. 2 and 6 are swapped, could this be the problem?

maxwedge
03-20-2007, 06:33 PM
Yes, but it should still stumble or try to start, how did they get switched though, it's one connector. Sit still till you see if it will run on carb cleaner.

oil slick
03-21-2007, 10:14 AM
Got a new fuel tester, pressure at the test point is 42 psi and when cranking goes to about 44 psi. Watched for bleed off, lost about one half psi in one minute, and then seemed to hold steady. Held open throttle and sprayed (for about 3 seconds) carb cleaner in through throttle body without cranking engine, put hose on and cranked, sounded better but did not fire or start, just backfired. Heard a loud clanking noise after backfire. Tried 3 times and quit. I'm a little cautious about doing it with engine cranking in case the backfire ignites the residule spray. The wires i am talking about are the ones from the ign control to the coil pack, they are bayonets and not a plug. Must have relied on my memory, not a good idea, but found where i wrote them down, and i did get them swapped, however i was getting the same indications before i removed the coil pack for testing the first time. Is there a way to put an attachment on here? If there is i can send a video with sound so you can here it. It never really fires, but the sound of the cranking engine changes as if it wants to start, but just wont fire.
Thanks for all your help.
oil slick

oil slick
03-22-2007, 05:50 PM
IT'S ALIVE!!!!! Got it started. Smokes bad (white) but it runs smoothly. My background is twenty years as an avionics tech in the navy. The Haynes manual schematic shows the cam and crank sensor in puts to the Ign module and shows six outputs to the ECM, but not what they are. I had suspected that the module was bad, but could not justify spendind 100 dollars on one yet. When you directed me to the AZ web site, I noticed on the schematic that the sensor signal went in and came back out. Took a resistance reading between the pins C and G (crank) D and J (cam) and they were open. Went to AZ, they tested the module and it checked good, but the test was only for the power side. They had a new module and the resistance between pins was 5K ohms and not a straight shot like the schematic shows. Installed it and it fired right right up. I really appreciate all your help. If you hadn't directed me to AZ who knows, might have sold it. You gave me some great advice on what to check, if i have another car fail. Thanks again. I guess this capter is closed, now the smoking problem. (You might not be through with me yet).
Thanks so much
oil slick

maxwedge
03-22-2007, 06:29 PM
May just be some raw fuel in the cat, good work staying with it! Some the cylinders were firing out of order because of the module.

oil slick
03-26-2007, 08:56 PM
I drove it around for about 10 min and all cleared up. It is running good.
Thanks again
oil slick

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