surging idle and stalling

Okay so i've had this problem for a very long time now, and i really want to try and get it fixed before summertime. I have another post floating around from months ago, but ive decided to start a new one.

Problem: After driving around 10 minutes (time sometimes varys, and it does not always happen), the idle seems to surge (dropping and then raising) continuiously while sitting still. If i leave the gas alone and let it surge, it will eventually drop almost to where it stops, and then it starts back up again and the idle raises permanently to stop the car from stalling. But then its harder to brake, and its hard on the transmission. The odd time, it will stall when on a downward slant. And once, i pulled into a parking lot, and the call stalled just before i went to put it into park. And after an hour when i left, i started it up, and as I put it into drive, it stalled. I really had to give it gas to get it going.
Sometimes when im driving and i go to slow down to a stop, the car shakes as it shifts down through the gears.

What I've replaced: spark plugs, wires, TPS, IAC(cleaned and even replaced with another), egr valve, the valve thats ontop of the valve cover in that tube (i forgot the name), o2 sensor, air filter, and the fuel filter had been replaced last summer.

I was told it may be water in the tank, but ive had the problem for many months now, and with each fill-up i've been adding premium water absorber/gas antifreeze to it to get rid of any water that may be in there, but it hasnt been doing anything.

ANY ideas? lol. I went out and bought another fuel filter, and when i get some time I will replace it again.

Hi Chevy Guy ...

I have EXACTLY (right down to last detail) the same problem with my 2003 Sunfire 2.2L.

My car starts perfectly, idles perfectly, and runs great for about 20 minutes, and then when I go to stop at a stop sign, or slow down entering a parking lot, the RPM drops to about 500, and car stalls. No shuddering or thumping or anything, just stalls.

When I try to start again, I really have to give it gas, but it always starts right up again. Then when I keep driving and take foot off gas, the RPM drops down to 500, I give it gas, and then surges to about 1500 and stays there until I put foot on brake, then it tries to stall again.

But if I shut engine off, and let it sit for about 20 minutes, the problem goes away for another 20 minutes, then it starts acting up again.

At first I thought it was the cold weather. We have been having -20 cold lately, but a few days ago it was quite mild, and it is still doing it.

So far I've put in new battery (was getting old anyways) and new fuel pump (about 6 months ago). Thried the premium gas thing with gas line antifreeze to no avail.

I can still drive to work and back everyday without a problem, but I'll never be able to leave town again until I get problem fixed.

Hope you find problem soon. Let me know how you make out.

Bob

I am not familiar with the 2.2L engine, but I had identical symptoms from an '89 2.5L engine. The problem was caused by a leaking vacuum hose on the emissions system. The problem would kick in once the engine warmed up. As long as I was driving, the engine ran fine, but it would surge and stall at idle.

Good luck!

guys check it. he above is right about the vaccum leak. do this man it works. Get a propane torch. DO NOT LIGHT IT! just had to make that clear. turn the gas on a little and run the torch tip around the intake and anywhere you suspect a vaccum leak. the engine should speed up and smooth out when the gas gets sucked in. i have done this shit so much with vaccum leaks and it works every time. try it!:grinyes:

okay well. i've looked before for vacuum leaks, by unplugging certain lines and listening for a change, etc. but i couldnt find anything. But its worth another look i suppose. And yea, this isnt a fun problem. I can get to work and home fine, but i cant go downtown to the mall or shopping anywhere because it will just stall.

I'll try it too this afternoon (the propane thing) and let you know if any luck.

A few other clues.

a) It's interesting to note happening on both a 90's Cavalier and a 2003 Sunfire - must be something common to both models

b) The check engine light never comes on, so the engine must think everything is o.k.. That rules out problems that would normally make the light come on.

c) I've been searching other forums and groups for weeks on end. I've found similar threads discussing similar problems, but none so exact as Chevyguy93. Interesting to note that we are both in Canada, with approx. the same recent weather conditions. Very cold. This might indicate something temperature related or possibly even a US vs. Canada emmision control standard difference.

BP

Just went to Walmart to pick some stuff up for wife, and found OBD2 readers on sale, so I bought one.

It shows a code P0172 fuel mixture too rich error.

I read somewhere before on the AF where a Coolant sensor goes bad and the puter senses cold condition and as a result engine gets too much fuel . On the `03 it is located in the coolant pipe ,at the right front corner of the cylinder head,near the alternator. Hope this helps.

chevy guy if you are curious about this ,look for sensors at thermostat housing. there may be two of them . the one you want will have a yellow and black wire . DO NOT GROUND it or computer damage may occur. Good luck in whatever you do here. let us know if you figure it out. I like the propane trick........if I can just remember it ...........lol

thanks muff34! i'll definately look into that. I didnt even think of that. I know that a while ago i was having some problems with the temperature going into the red and then dropping. but i didnt think that it would be related.

I feel like a real dummy now. My last car actually had an engine in it (i.e. you could find a distributor, spark plug wires, carb etc.) This 2.2L seems to be nothing more than a block of metal with a million sensors on it ! It was easy to do the propane trick, considering I could only find 2 vacuum lines on te whole dang thing !

Hee hee ...

Anyways, the upper rad hose dissapears into what us old guys would call the rocker cover. Is it safe to assume that the thermostat is under this cover, and that by removing the cover, the thermostat and sensors will be exposed ?

Anyways, the upper rad hose dissapears into what us old guys would call the rocker cover. Is it safe to assume that the thermostat is under this cover, and that by removing the cover, the thermostat and sensors will be exposed ? On my`00 2.2ohv the ECT sensor is in the coolant pipe that runs across the front of engine ,if I look at the alt it is in behind serpintine belt. If yours is a 2.2ohc it`s located on thermo housing located on left rear corner of the cylinder head.

thanks muff34! i'll definately look into that. I didnt even think of that. I know that a while ago i was having some problems with the temperature going into the red and then dropping. but i didnt think that it would be related.Sounds like you are confusing this sensor with temperature sending unit now. The ECT feeds info to the PCM as to how warm engine is .The PCM will then control air/fuel mixture along with other things

the problem seems to have gone away for some strange reason, but I havent been going for long trips. I'll post when it comes back.

Me too, but it's been milder, and I havn't driven for any more than 10KM at a time. Going to take longer trip this weekend.

By the way. When you are coasting to a stop, does it feel like the transmission is still slightly engaged ? I did't notice as much when colder and snow on road, but now that road is bare pavement, it seems like the car is still trying to creep when foot is on brake.

Starting to think maybe problem is transmission related. Still no engine codes on OBDii monitor.

BP, Ontario

yes! the transmission is still engaged when im trying to stop, and its not only making it harder to stop, but its making it more dangerous, especially when driving on ice and snow. When you apply the breaks to come to a stop, you can feel the car still pulling you, and the transmission will jerk as its shifting late from gear 3-2, then as i get slower, it jerks from 2-1. and i cant figure it out.

Hmmm ... interesting ...

I remember reading a while back (on anopther site), about a similar problem with 2003's, but the problem seemed to only be associated with manual transmissions. I think it was a solenoid or a sensor.

Earlier in the week, I was telling one of my mechanics (I'm Maintenance Supervisor in a large factory) about the problem, and he told me that something similar had happened to one of the other guys wife. She took her car in, and the shop either disconnected (or reconnected) a wire to the transmission, and problem went away. Unfortunately the other guy is on holidays right now, and won't be back until Monday. I'm eagerly waiting his return, so I can ask him a bit more.

I search the other groups and see if I can find more info on the tranmssion problem. Maybe someone else watching this thread knows more about it ?

BP, Ontario

your probably thinking of the TCC Solenoid. Its in the transmission and locks the 2 gears together together. Sometimes it can stick and not allow the transmission to downshift properly, and can even cause the car to stall. I had that happen in the summer, and I already replaced it with a brand new one, costed me 80$ for the new one. I dont think thats my problem this time.

ive used brake clean to check for vacum leaks before. just put on the sttraw and start spraying at vacum pots and see if it starts to mess up

ive already tried that. ive even tried the torch trick, with no luck.

Still no engine codes on OBDii monitor.

BP, Ontario um thought you stated earlier that you had code P0172, Has that Disappeared for some unknown reason. how`s the idle is it hanging up or normal?

I had a similar problem w/ my 96 2.4L.

#1) check the FUEL PRESSURE REGULATOR.
This can be checked by removing it from the engine, and checking to see if the diaphragm inside it is punctured. if it is you will get gas in the vacuum line, causing ths surging.
ALSO
#2) check the MAP sensor AND the vacuum hose leading up to it.
The sensor itself is not as easy to check, but can be done with an ohmmeter.
Instructions for doing this are located in most cav manuals.
The hose, is easy to check for cracks.

Try these things out, and let me know if this solves your problem.

michaelscanlan

Me again ... I'm back ...

Well last March I was having surging / stalling problems. It turned out to be a very clogged IAC motor. I took it out, cleaned the motor, cleaned the orrifice that IAC plugs into, cleaned all the oil and water goo out of the plastic air guide (between the air filter and carb), cleaned the goo outof intake air sensor tip, and then put verything back together.

Ran great after that ... put about 50K on the dead bird over the summer ...

Until Thursday.

Same thing started happening again (-10 degree celcius). So on Saturday morning, I repeated what I did last year hoping that problem would go away again.

But it's still doing it. I'll be coasting with foot off gas, and suddenly RPM will jump to 1800. If I put in neutral, RPM will surge up to 2400 rpm. Will have to shut engine off, wait 5 minutes, then start again, and things will be back to normal. But then everytime put foot on brake (stop sign etc.) RPM will drop below 400, lights will go dim, fan slow down, and then I stall.

So what-ever is wrong, its definitely temperature related. Only happens when it's cold out. Ad when the weather warms up, the problem goes away ...

Anyone have ay ideas ? What about you Chevyguy ? Do you still have problems with your Cavalier ?

BP Ontario

actually. i upgraded. im driving a 2003 grand prix gt now. i gave my cavalier to my brother. I dont think he's been having any problems with it, other than the block heater stopped working.