Interesting Symptom, What Do You Think
Metro Mighty Mouse
02-17-2007, 04:11 AM
Allright, long story and different possible symptoms. Let me know what you think.
Engine is a JDM replacement, approximately 20k miles since replacement, new timing belt at that time and water pump soon after.
When the timing was set per the normal procedure (trust me), it ran bad and hot. Didn't quite overheat but was hotter than I wanted it and it eventually melted out the solder heat checkers the co. I bought it from installed (a little bit at a time). I advanced the timing by ear and the car ran beautifully and at the normal temperature. It was not driven for more than a few days like this. This was in Texas and after moving to the west coast it started to ping so I dialed the timing back until it stopped (crummy gas here). Currently gets 40mpg.
Things not currently factory that may have an effect; PCV hose has been altered to fit a home made cold air intake (it's been replaced by one off of ebay), it has a plastic T and a silicone hose dumping off the back of the engine instead of into the airbox.
Observations that may have a bearing; Small anti-freeze leak, location unknown, I occasionally smell it but have never seen it. car does not overheat and there are no telltale spots. Crankcase has no buildup at all, the oil darkens but does not turn black.
I drive 50 miles to and from work each day, the majority of it at 70 to 75 mph and around 4000rpm. There are 3 significant hills along the way that require more pedal to stay at the same speed. The first hill is the worst, requiring full throttle to stay at speed. The others just require more throttle to stay at speed, but there is plenty left to accelerate a little bit with.
around a month/ month and a half ago, after the first hill and most of the way up one of the others I started blowing oil smoke out the back of the vehicle accompanied by a small loss of power. More pedal made a smoke screen. After downshifting and playing with the throttle the smoke stopped. The whole incident probably lasted less than two minutes and when I got to work there were tiny oil spots all over the hatch. It was cold out, snow on the ground, but not exceptionally cold.
A month later, (last week), the timing belt broke on the way to work. As the truck was about to tow it away I noticed a small oil spot, 2 to 4 inches across, under the timing belt end of the motor. Figuring the most likely leak location was the main seal, I picked up crank and cam seals and a PCV valve with the timing belt and replaced all four. There was some oil under the timing cover but not a lot. There also did not appear to be much oil on the timing belt. Replacement went well, no indication of any issues and car ran perfectly when restarted, no timing adjustment necessary.
A couple of days ago, in approximately the same spot, the smoke/ small power loss returned, for about the same length of time. Once at work there was not any evidence of oil spots on the hatch put the weather was cool and rainy and I assume the water just rinsed the oil away. After a look under the hood I did discover that the silicone hose got eaten by the alternator belt.
I can not confirm for sure that the oil is coming out of the exhaust but it does seem the most likely. I have not checked the compression and quite frankly not likely to unless the problem worsens and it seems the most useful way to diagnose what is going on.
So there is the puzzle, I have my own opinion about what is going on but I feel it doesn't adequately explain everything that has happened.
Who has ideas, what are your opinions and similar experiences.
Engine is a JDM replacement, approximately 20k miles since replacement, new timing belt at that time and water pump soon after.
When the timing was set per the normal procedure (trust me), it ran bad and hot. Didn't quite overheat but was hotter than I wanted it and it eventually melted out the solder heat checkers the co. I bought it from installed (a little bit at a time). I advanced the timing by ear and the car ran beautifully and at the normal temperature. It was not driven for more than a few days like this. This was in Texas and after moving to the west coast it started to ping so I dialed the timing back until it stopped (crummy gas here). Currently gets 40mpg.
Things not currently factory that may have an effect; PCV hose has been altered to fit a home made cold air intake (it's been replaced by one off of ebay), it has a plastic T and a silicone hose dumping off the back of the engine instead of into the airbox.
Observations that may have a bearing; Small anti-freeze leak, location unknown, I occasionally smell it but have never seen it. car does not overheat and there are no telltale spots. Crankcase has no buildup at all, the oil darkens but does not turn black.
I drive 50 miles to and from work each day, the majority of it at 70 to 75 mph and around 4000rpm. There are 3 significant hills along the way that require more pedal to stay at the same speed. The first hill is the worst, requiring full throttle to stay at speed. The others just require more throttle to stay at speed, but there is plenty left to accelerate a little bit with.
around a month/ month and a half ago, after the first hill and most of the way up one of the others I started blowing oil smoke out the back of the vehicle accompanied by a small loss of power. More pedal made a smoke screen. After downshifting and playing with the throttle the smoke stopped. The whole incident probably lasted less than two minutes and when I got to work there were tiny oil spots all over the hatch. It was cold out, snow on the ground, but not exceptionally cold.
A month later, (last week), the timing belt broke on the way to work. As the truck was about to tow it away I noticed a small oil spot, 2 to 4 inches across, under the timing belt end of the motor. Figuring the most likely leak location was the main seal, I picked up crank and cam seals and a PCV valve with the timing belt and replaced all four. There was some oil under the timing cover but not a lot. There also did not appear to be much oil on the timing belt. Replacement went well, no indication of any issues and car ran perfectly when restarted, no timing adjustment necessary.
A couple of days ago, in approximately the same spot, the smoke/ small power loss returned, for about the same length of time. Once at work there was not any evidence of oil spots on the hatch put the weather was cool and rainy and I assume the water just rinsed the oil away. After a look under the hood I did discover that the silicone hose got eaten by the alternator belt.
I can not confirm for sure that the oil is coming out of the exhaust but it does seem the most likely. I have not checked the compression and quite frankly not likely to unless the problem worsens and it seems the most useful way to diagnose what is going on.
So there is the puzzle, I have my own opinion about what is going on but I feel it doesn't adequately explain everything that has happened.
Who has ideas, what are your opinions and similar experiences.
Crvett69
02-17-2007, 01:50 PM
feel underneath the distributer and see if its wet with oil. if it is replace your distributor o ring. if it is leaking well under up under the car on the exhaist pipe. take the pcv hose off and see if it has fresh oil inside it, could be sucking it into engine through pcv valve
brivers
02-18-2007, 07:47 AM
Try pulling the dipstick out and put a piece of 1/2" hose over the tube and point it down. Drive it and see if it still does it. Post back and let us know if it worked. (Don't lose your dipstick)
Metro Mighty Mouse
02-19-2007, 04:06 AM
Try pulling the dipstick out and put a piece of 1/2" hose over the tube and point it down. Drive it and see if it still does it. Post back and let us know if it worked. (Don't lose your dipstick)
I agree it sounds like it's possibly building up pressure in the crankcase. The problem with this solution is the oil smoke is not happening at a predictable rate so there would be no way to tell if this fixed it or it just didn't happen again.
Let me add a couple of other things that I have noticed. Previously I forgot to mention I have what sounds like a noisy lifter/valve on start up in the morning. Lasts for a few minutes and then goes away when the engine is warm. More interestingly I have a waxy grey gunk building up on the inside of/ around the radiator cap and also in the overflow bottle. Has anyone encountered this before and can you say for sure what is causing it?
Thanks,
MMM
I agree it sounds like it's possibly building up pressure in the crankcase. The problem with this solution is the oil smoke is not happening at a predictable rate so there would be no way to tell if this fixed it or it just didn't happen again.
Let me add a couple of other things that I have noticed. Previously I forgot to mention I have what sounds like a noisy lifter/valve on start up in the morning. Lasts for a few minutes and then goes away when the engine is warm. More interestingly I have a waxy grey gunk building up on the inside of/ around the radiator cap and also in the overflow bottle. Has anyone encountered this before and can you say for sure what is causing it?
Thanks,
MMM
Chromehero
02-19-2007, 09:34 AM
MMM,
You mentioned that upon startup, there seems to be a valve tapping. In my experience, that could mean your oil pump is bad/is going bad. The valve tap is due to no oil being at the top of the engine at that first minute or two. Then, as the engine runs, the pump is able to build up pressure slowly, eventually bringing oil to the top of the engine. Once the oil is there, the engine runs normally, and the oil is delivered as it should. The caution here is that if the oil pump is going bad, you may eventually find that there is NO oil being distributed.
With the oil not moving where it should/as fast as it should, it could be causing increased pressure in other places, and that could be leading to odd wear of parts. Just my :2cents:.
The waxy gray gunk in the radiator. The only time I have seen it is when an engine has gone bad and sat a while. Perhaps these two problems are related. If there is a head gasket leak or cracked block that is allowing oil into the antifreeze and vice versa, that could be causing loss of oil pressure to the oil delivery system, oil getting into the radiator fluid (causing the waxy gunk), and the odd wear of parts. Thankfully at this point, it sounds as if the potential leak is small. If the antifreeze is getting into the oil, it is probably burning off and venting where it can. This causes you to smell it, but not to see it.
Another thought: if the antifreeze is boiling off, it will move to the top of the engine, and displace the oil as well as increasing fluid pressure inside the engine. With the increase in pressure at the top of the engine, the oil may be getting pushed out other places.
This post paints a pretty bleak picture, but I would rather you be forewarned, than have me just blow smoke up your tailpipe, so to speak.
Chrome
You mentioned that upon startup, there seems to be a valve tapping. In my experience, that could mean your oil pump is bad/is going bad. The valve tap is due to no oil being at the top of the engine at that first minute or two. Then, as the engine runs, the pump is able to build up pressure slowly, eventually bringing oil to the top of the engine. Once the oil is there, the engine runs normally, and the oil is delivered as it should. The caution here is that if the oil pump is going bad, you may eventually find that there is NO oil being distributed.
With the oil not moving where it should/as fast as it should, it could be causing increased pressure in other places, and that could be leading to odd wear of parts. Just my :2cents:.
The waxy gray gunk in the radiator. The only time I have seen it is when an engine has gone bad and sat a while. Perhaps these two problems are related. If there is a head gasket leak or cracked block that is allowing oil into the antifreeze and vice versa, that could be causing loss of oil pressure to the oil delivery system, oil getting into the radiator fluid (causing the waxy gunk), and the odd wear of parts. Thankfully at this point, it sounds as if the potential leak is small. If the antifreeze is getting into the oil, it is probably burning off and venting where it can. This causes you to smell it, but not to see it.
Another thought: if the antifreeze is boiling off, it will move to the top of the engine, and displace the oil as well as increasing fluid pressure inside the engine. With the increase in pressure at the top of the engine, the oil may be getting pushed out other places.
This post paints a pretty bleak picture, but I would rather you be forewarned, than have me just blow smoke up your tailpipe, so to speak.
Chrome
Metro Mighty Mouse
02-21-2007, 01:27 AM
Chrome,
Now both of the obvious choices have been expressed. Please allow me to discuss some of the particulars. As far as low oil pressure is concerned I would put it as unlikely as the motor should have less than 80,000 miles on it and I would think low pressure would start to cook the oil leading to black burnt oil. The internals of this motor are so clean that the oil just turns a little darker as it ages and there is no burnt oil smell. I can however check for this in the near future as I have already purchased an oil pressure guage and I can temporarily hook it up and check pressure at start up.
I also have determined that some, if not all, of the coolant leak is coming from somewhere around the top of the radiator. I will be chasing it down further soon also.
I am really interested in why the timing belt broke after 20,000 miles. It was a Goodyear Gatorback and it broke clean across except for one strand in each direction.
The car continues to run like a top, plenty of power, able to jump to 80/85 mph when asked with no indication of any problems. there is no indication of water/coolant in the water (I realize if it is a small enough quantity it could easily boil off as you say Chrome) and no oil sheen in the coolant. There is just the odd buildup.
I appreciate everyones .02 cents, (I'm hoping to raise a dollar to pay for a full diagnosis)
Thanks,
MMM
Now both of the obvious choices have been expressed. Please allow me to discuss some of the particulars. As far as low oil pressure is concerned I would put it as unlikely as the motor should have less than 80,000 miles on it and I would think low pressure would start to cook the oil leading to black burnt oil. The internals of this motor are so clean that the oil just turns a little darker as it ages and there is no burnt oil smell. I can however check for this in the near future as I have already purchased an oil pressure guage and I can temporarily hook it up and check pressure at start up.
I also have determined that some, if not all, of the coolant leak is coming from somewhere around the top of the radiator. I will be chasing it down further soon also.
I am really interested in why the timing belt broke after 20,000 miles. It was a Goodyear Gatorback and it broke clean across except for one strand in each direction.
The car continues to run like a top, plenty of power, able to jump to 80/85 mph when asked with no indication of any problems. there is no indication of water/coolant in the water (I realize if it is a small enough quantity it could easily boil off as you say Chrome) and no oil sheen in the coolant. There is just the odd buildup.
I appreciate everyones .02 cents, (I'm hoping to raise a dollar to pay for a full diagnosis)
Thanks,
MMM
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