2002 330ci vs. audi S4

I'm leaning towards a 2002 330ci over an S4 due to it's sporty nature, any thoughts?, also does anyone know if it will have a Sequential Manual Gearbox as an option in the U.S.?

thanks

What sporty nature are you refering to? S4 would run over 330Ci in all weather situation. Plus it's so easy to tuned S4 engine. SMG2 actually stands for Sequential M Gearbox II. The one you are refering to is Sequential Sports Gearbox also known as SSG. Yes it will be available as a option in 3 series soon. But no word yet on when that soon becomes reality.

S4 Hand down, If it was a 330xi then it may have a chance but the S4 wins because of the fact that it is a tuned A4 which would be the 3 series competition, it has a 250 Bhp 2.7L Biturbo V-6 (Love that engine:)) and it has Quattro which turns all of the wheels which puts th S4 way out of the 330ci's reach. The S4 does have one setback though, I found it to be smaller than a 3 series (I'm 6 2' so That is a problem for me) i'm not aying it's more expensive because BMw's options can really add up and the 330xi is competitvely priced with the S4.

>What sporty nature are you refering to

I just feel the bmw has more road feel, is lower to the ground, and better driver feedback, and I've read for 2002 they are un-boosting the steering back to normal and also re-doing the suspension, making it even better.

While I love the S4's super torque, super-gripping quattro, and kick ass interior, but it just feels too much like a luxury sedan for me (which it is). I was considering the new 2002 A4 but they made it into a pure luxury car now, I was reading a car mag and they said the new V6 is so smooth and quiet, "you'd swear it's being powered by an electric motor", my audi salesman drove one and he also said it was very muted.

I would get the new M3, but I can't wait that long (or over-pay and get it now), plus I have this fear that I will get jacked within the first week of driving it :-)

This is what's most recommanded for modding a S4

Springs and Shocks
Short throw shifter
Aftermarket ECU Chip

how has the reliability been on your S4?

No problems so far and the car is well taken care of. In my mind the look is aging fast. The body design has been out since 1996.

One of my main concerns with the Audi was reliability with the twin turbos and all (more strain on the engine, turbos needing to be replaced after certain milage), if the it's up to par with the bimmer I might lean back, but I'll have to test drive the two back to back again to make up my indecisive mind. I better make it up quick, my 92 legend coupe has 120K mi. and is starting to do wierd things.

p.s. - I think the current S4 looks very classy, the new A4 looks too much like an A6.

The twin turbo are small applications. As long as you take care of it properly you won't run into any problems. If you tuned it too much then you are risking that chance yourself. All luxury brand cars look alike. It's call a family resemblence. You can see an A6 in A4 and A8.

I have an S4 Avant 6 speed purchased new in July of this year and I am loving it. I personnally find it much more attractive than any of the BMWs. I cannot imagine the BMer handling any better.

Handling and performance are superb - well beyond anything I have experienced before. The only complaint I have is that the shifting has that well known VW-Audi sloppiness to it. I am curious which short shifters folks have found to be an improvement.

Also curious what sort of snow/all-weather wheel/tire solutions people prefer on this car. Mine came with Pirelli rubber. I understand these are a softer rubber that might be less than ideal on snow and ice.

I welcome comments from S4 owners in colder climates. The thing has such superb traction with the quattro drive system that I don't think I need to be in a hurry to acquire snow tires for this winter.

So far the engine starts and runs flawlessy, as well it should in such a car. Torque is excellent even at lower RPMs. This should make for outstanding performance in the snow.

Enjoying the car and the forum. Glad to be a new member.

Even though I really like the audi, I think the bmw is more my type of car, here are some links I kept from my audi days;

http://www.machvw.com/neusstainste.html

http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/pdf/UUC%20Audi%20S4%20Directions.pdf

http://www.stratmosphere.com/tanoga_s4_short_shifter.htm

http://www.stratmosphere.com/uuc_motorwerks_short_shifters1.htm

http://store.yahoo.com/machvw/uucshorshif.html

http://store.yahoo.com/machvw/neusshorshif.html

An S4 is more meant to compete with the M3.... well not anymore, but it competes more with the E36 M3, that's what it was made for. The A4 competes with the regular 3-series

if i were you, I'd go S4

Originally posted by gang$tarr
An S4 is more meant to compete with the M3.... well not anymore, but it competes more with the E36 M3, that's what it was made for. The A4 competes with the regular 3-series

if i were you, I'd go S4


I guess the question would be is the 330ci up to par with the old M3, not just power to weight ratio, but all around. I can get $1500 off the 330ci (have to order it), the audi dealer dealer calls me every other day ready to make a deal as they have a few sitting on the lot (~ 3K off).

Damn, I wish I could have both.

The E36 M3 is ALOT better than an E46 330ci

the older M3 is said to handle better than a Ferrari F355!!! :D
it was called the best handling car

if I were you, i'd so go S4 over 330ci

I thought the E30 was supposed to be best handling M3.
The E36 seemed rather mediocre by comparison in the reviews.

Originally posted by blakwolf
I thought the E30 was supposed to be best handling M3.
The E36 seemed rather mediocre by comparison in the reviews.

i dunno, i never said the E36 was the best M3, i don't know much about the E30. Just that in Car and Driver they said the E36 M3 handles better than a Ferrari F355 and it was like the best handling car of the year one year

Originally posted by gang$tarr
An S4 is more meant to compete with the M3.... well not anymore, but it competes more with the E36 M3, that's what it was made for. The A4 competes with the regular 3-series

if i were you, I'd go S4

That's why there is RS4!! Those baby can fly.

Originally posted by gang$tarr
The E36 M3 is ALOT better than an E46 330ci

the older M3 is said to handle better than a Ferrari F355!!! :D
it was called the best handling car

if I were you, i'd so go S4 over 330ci

Yah E36 was said to be the best handling car at that time on the planet. However E46 and E30 are no slouch either.

S4 can handle pretty well but I have to go with 330Ci cause it handles better. Quatto doesn't allow a lot of things to happen.

the RS4 is a wagon though... so i don't think a single guy would want to drive a wagon :D but if you're married :devil:

Have you seen Tiff Needel review the RS4 on Top Gear?? He said that the M3 is a 100 times better, that you just can't have fun with the RS4 unless (then he whispers: don't tell audi) you use the hand brake. He said the main thing it's good for is unbelievable straight line acceleration

What do you expect? It packs 380hp under it's hood.

RS4 can handle just it's not fun to throw around because of Quattro.

Wagon drives like car and have luggage space like SUV. If there was no station wagon the road would be full of mammoth SUV.

My two cents,
If this were my only car to have, and from the sounds of it this will be for you, I would definately go with the BMW. Heres why:

Performance: just as good as the Audi

Transmission: all BMW trannys are heavenly, whether you pick steptronic or manual. Audis have sloppy manual trannys and the tiptronic is old and outdated. Trust me, ive driven it. BTW, the Sequential manual gearbox is so irresistable that they arent going to ever offer it in the 3 series. If you want it buy it for 2400 bucks on your M3 E46. (Mine is on order :-) )

Engine: BMWs inline 6 makes 225 hp cleanly and without the assistance of turbos, meaning a smoother powerband and much quieter ride. The S4 is much more of a "ricer." Also the BMW engine is excellent on both gas and oil consumption. I went 19,000 miles in my 330ci before the computer told me to change the oil for the first time. I also get about 28 MPG daily.

Versatility: The BMW is a bigger car, and therefore has more room. If you only have one car this is something to consider.

Style: Sorry, you cant get the Audi in a two door model, and arent coupes irresistable?

Value: The Audi is cheaper for a reason. Compare the value of the two cars after two years and see. Also, BMW isnt just a spiffed up VW on the inside. If you like the Audi buy a Passat and save ten grand.

Potential: You can really make a damn fast car out of a 330i with a few grand. go to www.bmw330ci.com and see what one guy did with some brembo brakes...


I hope you make the right choice. I think its funny that you picked the S4 to be the main comparison for your BMW. When I bought my 330ci, the only other thing i looked at was the Saab Viggen. I know that this might seem silly, but in my mind its the only thing that can hold a candle to it. I didn't get the Saab for pretty much all of the reasons I stated above. Peace out!
'01 BMW 330ci
'96 Land Rover Defender 90


Sex appeal: BMW all the way.

Originally posted by F20C
What do you expect? It packs 380hp under it's hood.


huh?
Just because it has 380hp doesn't mean it can't be fun?! :confused: :huh:
i don't understand you :)


ultimatedriver: We're talkin about an Audi S4, not just a regular Audi A4

I am aware of that. The BMW still kicks its ass.

Originally posted by ultimatedriver7
My two cents,
If this were my only car to have, and from the sounds of it this will be for you, I would definately go with the BMW. Heres why:

Performance: just as good as the Audi

Transmission: all BMW trannys are heavenly, whether you pick steptronic or manual. Audis have sloppy manual trannys and the tiptronic is old and outdated. Trust me, ive driven it. BTW, the Sequential manual gearbox is so irresistable that they arent going to ever offer it in the 3 series. If you want it buy it for 2400 bucks on your M3 E46. (Mine is on order :-) )

Engine: BMWs inline 6 makes 225 hp cleanly and without the assistance of turbos, meaning a smoother powerband and much quieter ride. The S4 is much more of a "ricer." Also the BMW engine is excellent on both gas and oil consumption. I went 19,000 miles in my 330ci before the computer told me to change the oil for the first time. I also get about 28 MPG daily.

Versatility: The BMW is a bigger car, and therefore has more room. If you only have one car this is something to consider.

Style: Sorry, you cant get the Audi in a two door model, and arent coupes irresistable?

Value: The Audi is cheaper for a reason. Compare the value of the two cars after two years and see. Also, BMW isnt just a spiffed up VW on the inside. If you like the Audi buy a Passat and save ten grand.

Potential: You can really make a damn fast car out of a 330i with a few grand. go to www.bmw330ci.com and see what one guy did with some brembo brakes...

Sex appeal: BMW all the way.

Performance: S4 is league ahead of 330Ci/330Xi. S4 is constant mid 5's and 330Ci is low 6's. I don't think I need to be any clear than that.

Tranmission: S4 have long sloppy Manual. Their Tiptronic was far more reponsive than BMW's Steptronic. You can feel the gears much better in Audi. I find Steptronic awfully boring like Benz's.

Engine: S4's V6 bi turbo makes a healthy 250hp. I am sorry but Turbo makes it just as smooth as 330Ci's inline 6. The bi turbo are twin small turbo application with instant response and no lag. The evidence is in it's max torque achieve at 1900rpm that stays flat all the way to almost redline. BMW's Double Vanos, Valvetronic etc makes the engine smooth but it's still a lot more peaky than S4's engine.

Versatility: BMW is bigger car but not by much.

Value: I don't know man you are paying more in the first place. If you depreciate faster than Audi than that's a big problem. Most european brand car's depreciate faster than japanese brand cars anyways.

Potential: This should be a no brainer. What can you get for 500 bucks that will give you 60hp and 100lb torque? I bet you have to spend at least 4 grand to get the same result on 330's inline6. Careful with your money because S4's will reach 400hp at a much cheaper rate than your inline 6 will I gurantee you. The common rule is never compare potential with a Force Inducted car if your car is not. You will lose and lose badly unless you have one of those ultra strong engine block that was meant to be force inducted or plenty of displacement. It's why NSX get's blown away by Skyline and Supra that have simple mods.

Originally posted by gang$tarr


huh?
Just because it has 380hp doesn't mean it can't be fun?! :confused: :huh:
i don't understand you :)



I was refering to earlier when you mention it has unbelieveable straightline speed.

I would go w/ the bimmer... Straight line spees goes to the s4, but I think the s4 handles like crap... It's worlds better than the a4, but in comparison, I was expecting a LOT more. Incidientally the IS300 outhandles both, it just needs more power :(
A good 30 HP or more.

Originally posted by s0yb0mb
I would go w/ the bimmer... Straight line spees goes to the s4, but I think the s4 handles like crap... It's worlds better than the a4, but in comparison, I was expecting a LOT more. Incidientally the IS300 outhandles both, it just needs more power :(
A good 30 HP or more.

5 speed manaul can better take advantage of that engine. Since you have 01 models you have to stick with the E-Shift.

yah, it's my first auto :(
The woman can't drive stick, so I bought w/ auto, and now she doesn't drive it so I'm cosidering trading for a manual.

5 Speed would be nice but there are plenty of cars comming out in the horizon.

This is what I got about a possible M3 fighter from Lexus. 360hp from Twin VVTL-i combine with Toyota's new less than 10% Powertrain loss. 18 inch tire standard along with 6 speed manual.

TRD is also developing Supercharger and Turbocharger applications for IS300. This is the same engine used in N/A Supra so why not take more advantage of it. It can pump out some serious hp.

where'd u get that info about the 360hp IS? got a link?
As far as I know, all TRD is working on is a SC, no turbo... But the SC was supposed to be available this spring, then delayed to this fall, now again next spring... They're not really rushing it for some reason, and TRD is known for puting only a little extra HP via their SC applications. I'd rather go aftermarket :\

I moderate on Honda boards. Don't know if you heard of it or not. It's call Superhonda. One of the forums I work at is the Rumors Board. So pretty much I know about all the new cars coming out. The M3 Fighter information was from a person working with Toyota.

TRD usually starts with Supercharger which is the case with Solara and Celica. But the TRD president said they would like to see a Turbo applications taking advantage of IS300's engine block.

Toyomoto in FL has an IS300 pushing 606 hp at the wheels... anything TRD would do is going to be under 250whp I'd guess. THey need to make sure it is reliable since TRD mods are covered under warranty.

I think they will push about 100whp at least. There is no point buying a supercharger that cost a ton for only measly 50whp. The engine can defitnitely take the beating but not sure about the other parts on the car.

update: I was about to order the 330ci and it came to $43K fully loaded, so I was just browsing through carmax and stumbled on a fully loaded 2001 540i 6-speed (even had sport package & nav). It had 17K miles and was going for $45K, so I went for a drive and ended up buying it. That V8 is unreal! I will post some pics soon.

Ive driven both cars and the BMW is a better car. It may not be quite as fast as the S4 straight off accelerating, but it would be difficult to notice the difference. Also, The S4 is based on a car that debuted in 1995, making it an eight year old car. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the E46 debuted in 1999. With BMW you are simply getting more for your money.

BTW the tiptronic sucks just so you know. I have never heard this crap about it being better than the steptronic. just look at the numbers to see how much more the tiptronic slows down the audi compared to the manual transmission when compared to steptronic vs manual on the bmw.

Lastly i think the two door thing is a biggie. BMW looks better like it or not.

BTW my last BMW was a 01 330i sedan and I added a dinan chip to it. My acceleration figures were 0-60 in 6 with steptronic. In a manual tranny car I understand it cuts the time down to about 5.7 seconds, faster than a mid 90s Ferrari.

The 330i can also top at out 156 mph as a stocker with only the restrictor removed.

Food for thought...

Oooh you bought one hell of a nice car. Enjoy it!

Originally posted by rviradia
update: I was about to order the 330ci and it came to $43K fully loaded, so I was just browsing through carmax and stumbled on a fully loaded 2001 540i 6-speed (even had sport package & nav). It had 17K miles and was going for $45K, so I went for a drive and ended up buying it. That V8 is unreal! I will post some pics soon.

wow, that's sweet! The 540i 6-speed is a really nice car, obviously much better than a 330i and i'd take it over an S4 any day :D

Good buy :D

Originally posted by ultimatedriver7
Ive driven both cars and the BMW is a better car. It may not be quite as fast as the S4 straight off accelerating, but it would be difficult to notice the difference. Also, The S4 is based on a car that debuted in 1995, making it an eight year old car. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the E46 debuted in 1999. With BMW you are simply getting more for your money.

BTW the tiptronic sucks just so you know. I have never heard this crap about it being better than the steptronic. just look at the numbers to see how much more the tiptronic slows down the audi compared to the manual transmission when compared to steptronic vs manual on the bmw.

Lastly i think the two door thing is a biggie. BMW looks better like it or not.

BTW my last BMW was a 01 330i sedan and I added a dinan chip to it. My acceleration figures were 0-60 in 6 with steptronic. In a manual tranny car I understand it cuts the time down to about 5.7 seconds, faster than a mid 90s Ferrari.

The 330i can also top at out 156 mph as a stocker with only the restrictor removed.

Food for thought...

Oooh you bought one hell of a nice car. Enjoy it!

For one I own the car you bash in your earlier post. It was not exactly what you said it was when you describe it. I just felt it was needed for a owner to step in and stop the non sense. I don't think you spend enough time behind the wheel of S4 enough. AWD and Max Torque achieve at 1900 doesn't equal 330Ci's inline6. S4 is a clear half second ahead of 330Ci. It is almost 1 full second ahead of 330Xi. The platform S4 built on is getting old. However that doesn't mean it is a bad car by any means. S4 itself came out in 2000 and it uses beefed up materials. A4 is the same car that turn Audi from unknown to well known. By the way A4 came out in 1996. Withought it Audi wouldn't have enjoy the success it does now. Yah E46 came out in 1999 I am not saying it was not a bad car. I like how the engine howls when the rpm goes up. However you underestmate S4's ability. Do the math yourself and build a comparable equipped 330Ci with S4. You get more bang per buck with S4.

Tiptronic suck yah I know Audi only burrow it from Porsche. Of course you never have heard Tiptronic is better than Steptronic because you been dreaming in your BMW world. Steptronic offer horrible throttle response comprae with Audi. Manual vs Automatic times are hard to measure because there is no right time. Even with Tiptronic S4 is still faster than Steptronic 330Ci.

Yes you are right Coupe looks nice. However the other way around this topic is people get easy access to rear seats with Sedan. It depends on each person's need.

How much did you spend on the chip? How much hp and torque did you get? If you are talking about F355 than you are still way behind. You need to get into the high 4's to have a chance good chance to beat it.

Anyways you want to know something? I spend 500 bucks for my APR chip and it gave me 50 hp and 100 lb-ft torque. That tells you how de-tuned the S4 engine is. It also removed my top speed limit.

Your car is great but don't need to spread false information about other cars.

F20C,

Sorry for the heresy, but I still think the BMW is a superior machine. The Ferrari I was talking about was the 348, not the 355.

The BMW steptronic in my opinion is an excellent manumatic transmission and I've driven many many cars in my lifetime. A few other manumatics that come to mind are the Acura, Mercedes, and Audi. Of all these the BMW has the best step around.

As a final note, I think it is fair to say that the S4 wasn't created to be a 330ci killer, but instead as a weapon against the E36 M3. Obviously the 330ci is superior to the Audi 2.8 and thats what we should really be arguing about.

As far as value is concerned, you pick it. I am not a person who worries about finances, nor are many BMW owners. I haven't bought any practical cars in a long time. If i wanted practicality I would by a stripped down Saab. But I don't, I want a fun ride, and thats exactly what I have now. Come April I will be the proud owner of a new E46 M3 and I guarantee that it will burn up any Audi it encounters.

Audis are nice cars and I am not insulting them...they just arent BMWs!!

Later doo

Originally posted by ultimatedriver7
F20C,

Sorry for the heresy, but I still think the BMW is a superior machine. The Ferrari I was talking about was the 348, not the 355.

The BMW steptronic in my opinion is an excellent manumatic transmission and I've driven many many cars in my lifetime. A few other manumatics that come to mind are the Acura, Mercedes, and Audi. Of all these the BMW has the best step around.

As a final note, I think it is fair to say that the S4 wasn't created to be a 330ci killer, but instead as a weapon against the E36 M3. Obviously the 330ci is superior to the Audi 2.8 and thats what we should really be arguing about.

As far as value is concerned, you pick it. I am not a person who worries about finances, nor are many BMW owners. I haven't bought any practical cars in a long time. If i wanted practicality I would by a stripped down Saab. But I don't, I want a fun ride, and thats exactly what I have now. Come April I will be the proud owner of a new E46 M3 and I guarantee that it will burn up any Audi it encounters.

Audis are nice cars and I am not insulting them...they just arent BMWs!!

Later doo

BMW makes fine cars I am not doubting that at all.

You need a bit more work to be faster than Ferrari

348 does 0-60 in mid 5's.
355 does 0-60 in high 4's.
360 does 0-60 in low 4's

How should I say it let's see. Steptronic is easy to use and hold gears well. However it's not like Tiptronic where it actually allow you to control the car more. Later on we might talk about CVT Tiptronic vs SMG2.

S4 walks over 330Ci if people actually woke up and look at the facts. E36 M3 would have been a much better competitor like you said. A4 2.8 is no good at all. I wouldn't even bother comparing it to 330Ci.

BMW is not cheap but Audi isn't far off either. European brand cars are more expensive than Japanese counterparts.

Sometimes people have to realize that the only BMW worth that much money are all in M division. Those are the real ULTIMATE DRIVING EXPERIENCE. Well worth of every penny BMW charged on them. I wouldn't be so optimistic. Since new S4 arrives 16 months from now.

Audi aren't BMW because they are Audi. BMW is the standard people measure up to but doesn't mean Audi can't make great cars.

Originally posted by F20C


Anyways you want to know something? I spend 500 bucks for my APR chip and it gave me 50 hp and 100 lb-ft torque. That tells you how de-tuned the S4 engine is. It also removed my top speed limit.

Your car is great but don't need to spread false information about other cars.
You realize that your entire argument goes out the window when you take a step back and see you're comparing your beloved S4 to a 330, right? The s4 is supposed to be a step above, and a large step at that, but you take any slightly modified 330 or the M3 and your car is toast. Straight line you might have them, but throw a few corners in there and you're toast.
Don't get me wrong, I like the S4, but I can't get over how many people go strictly on numbers when rating the car... it's reliability stinks, and there's NO WAY you can call it a "detuned" engine... the thing has TURBOS IN IT!!!
Take that car, and run it normally aspirated and it's a Volkwagen with nice seats.

Originally posted by s0yb0mb

You realize that your entire argument goes out the window when you take a step back and see you're comparing your beloved S4 to a 330, right? The s4 is supposed to be a step above, and a large step at that, but you take any slightly modified 330 or the M3 and your car is toast. Straight line you might have them, but throw a few corners in there and you're toast.
Don't get me wrong, I like the S4, but I can't get over how many people go strictly on numbers when rating the car... it's reliability stinks, and there's NO WAY you can call it a "detuned" engine... the thing has TURBOS IN IT!!!
Take that car, and run it normally aspirated and it's a Volkwagen with nice seats.

I didn't start the arguement. However when people throw in false information something has to be done. S4 is a step above 330Ci however they are almost the same price if you get it simliarly equipped.

Slightly modify 330Ci will still get smoke by slightly modify S4. It's not as great handler as M3 however the Quattro does allow safer manuver. I might not have a chance to beat M3 in twisty but I can certainly hang. You have no idea how much beefier S4's suspension is over A4. He said that 330Ci have greater mod potential than S4. So if we both spend 500 bucks I can get 50hp and 100torque and Top speed limiter removed. He gets 15hp and Top speed removed.

It sad to see how people think their car is god because of a name brand in the front. If that was the case Ferrari won't have so many reliability problems. If you compare Japanese car's reliability and European's. You will find European's stink compare to Japanese. Why can't I call it a de-tuned engine? Can your car get 50hp and 100lb torque with a $500 chip change? It'll cost you at least 6 times more to get that amount of power. That's why I said earlier never try to compare engine potential with a Turbo car when yours is not. You want to pick on cars with Turbo then you have to live with the consequence.

The reason why you think it's just a VW with good seats is becaues VW have been taking parts from Audi. That's why VW's quality have gone up and closer the gap between them.

Originally posted by s0yb0mb

You realize that your entire argument goes out the window when you take a step back and see you're comparing your beloved S4 to a 330, right? The s4 is supposed to be a step above, and a large step at that, but you take any slightly modified 330 or the M3 and your car is toast. Straight line you might have them, but throw a few corners in there and you're toast.
Don't get me wrong, I like the S4, but I can't get over how many people go strictly on numbers when rating the car... it's reliability stinks, and there's NO WAY you can call it a "detuned" engine... the thing has TURBOS IN IT!!!
Take that car, and run it normally aspirated and it's a Volkwagen with nice seats.

sorry man, F20C is right. He didn't compare it to an M3, cause everybody knows that an M3 would destroy an S4. but the S4 costs alot less, like he said it's pretty close to a 330i, so for the price you get alot better performance value from the S4... plus the S4 is speed oriented, it was made to be a sporty car. The 330i is pretty fast but it isn't as much oriented towards sport driving, while the S4 is meant to go fast. I think the S4 handling is just as good as a 330i's if not better, because it's sports oriented. and just because a car has turbos on it, doesn't mean the engine has gone to it's full potential, turboed cars respond to mods alot more than N/A cars.

I think since they're pretty close in price, they should be compared..
btw here's a nice pic of an S4

Okay ill try to settle this one since people are pretty much split 50/50 on this discussion group.

First of all I think you need to be comparing apples to apples here. A coupe is not a four door sedan, and they appeal to different audiences. This should definately be a factor in a car buyers decision.

Second, as has been said, the 330Ci is not BMWs version of the superperformance compact car as the S4 is for Audi. The M3 is. The Audi was designed with that in mind and sadly doesn't hold a bar to the M3.

Lastly, Tiptronic sucks. There I said it. It does! It slows the car down far more than BMWs steptronic does. If you are comparing manual trannys, Audi sticks suck. BMW is world-renowned for having the best shifting manual trannys. The 330 may not be as fast as the Audi, but it shouldnt have to be. It was not designed as competition for the S4 as some people on this forum think. It is a much nicer car and doesnt look nearly as riced up as the S4 does. Don't even get me started on the S4 Avant...

If you guys like these Audis so much than kudos to you- us BMW owners really dont care. We coughed up the extra cash and bought a superior product. I dont see anyone praising the A4 2.8, the 330s closest competition from Audi.

Here is some additional info for all those who are interested in the REAL NUMBERS behind these two cars:

Base Price: Audi 38,900 BMW 45,900

Horsepower: Audi 250 BMW 333

Displacement CC: 2671 3246

Brakes: Audi Front 321 Rear 256 BWM Front 325 Rear 328

Weight: Audi 3593 BMW 3415

Weight distribution Front/Rear : Audi 59/41 BMW 50/50

Wheelbase: Audi 102.6 BMW 107.5 (the total length of the two cars is <.5 inches)

Acceleration 0-60: Audi 5.9 manual 6.5 auto BMW manual 4.8 SMG circa 4.5

Top speed: Audi 143 BMW 155 both limited

Standard wheels Audi 17 BMW 18 both incl. Z rated tires

you decide- but for the true sportsman the M3 is the obvious choice, and well worth the extra seven grand. My M3 priced out higher than that with options but ill still smoke my business partner in his Carrera 4, something you cant say about the Audi...



Sincerely,
Ultimatedriver7

01 330Ci
soon to be owner of 2002 M3

Yeah but the S4 was meant to compare to the E36 M3... not the E46
And it is pretty close to an E36
That's why we're not comparing it to the E46 M3

and the name of the thread is 330ci vs. audi S4, so we're saying the S4 is better. Also just because it has 4 doors doesn't mean that it's less sporty, it's still comparable to a 2-door car

You are totally right that 4 door and 2 door appeal to different people with different needs. 4 door will offer items 2 door can't vice versa.

You are right again that 330Ci is not part of the M Division. I personaly wouldn't even bother taking a 330Ci up against S4. It's the same reason why I wouldn't take an A4 2.8 up against 330Ci. It's pointless and I already know the result. However this thread says 330Ci VS S4 and that's why we compare them.

BMW 330Ci MSRP $34,990 Loaded $41,010
Audi S4 MSRP $38,9000 Loaded $42,325
BMW M3 Coupe MSRP $45,900 Loaded $52,295

MSRP is the suggested sale price. Loaded is the price you pay after the options have been add up. The reason why options was added up because it makes the car similarly equipped. All prices are curtesy of Audiusa.com and BMWusa.com!

Now let's get back to topic. Did I ever compare S4 with M3? Why are we all of a sudden talking about M3? The only M3 S4 compare with is E36 M3. However just keep in mind new generation S4 comes in 16 months.

Tiptronic suck? I guess Porsche must suck because they use Tiptronic too.

S4 Manaul Mid 5's. Tiptronic Low 6's.
330Ci Manual Low 6's. Steptronic Mid-High 6's.

I don't see much difference in the time. They are still at least half second slower than Manual. Now if you want to talk about CVT Tiptronic and SMG2 then it's a different story. S4's 6 speed have long sloppy throw to it. I have to agree the manual on 330Ci is better than S4's. People just take them two for comparsion because of price. You can't get away from the fact that Loaded 330Ci cost only $1000 less than Loaded S4. How can S4 be call rice? Most people can't even tell what's a S4 and what's an A4. S4 doesn't come with Chrome Rims, Big Ass Bodykit or Spoiler. Nor does it come with sticker all over the car. Define the term rice! (This better be good because it's the most stupidest thing I ever heard)

Who says I don't like BMW? I loved their M Division just as much as you. I just can't stand people like you spreading false information about another brand. I will repeat it this again since you missed it for 2 times now.

BMW makes high quality cars. However it doesn't mean other brand name can't make them.
You seem to think just because it says BMW on the front means it's better than all these other cars out on the road today.

If I were you I would pick M3 over S4 as well. However that's not even what the thread is asking. The final price gap is more like $10,000. You probaly have no idea what 10K can do magic on a S4. With all that money I can easily push S4 to 400hp (RS4 Territory) but I'll be carrying 1000lbs less weight due to the fact it's a sedan and not a wagon. Still have plenty of money left for brake upgrades and 19 inch tire etc. Want to know what a 400hp S4 can do? It's capable of low 4's which will play with Z06 instead of Carrear4. The last paragraph should really belong in another thread. But it was just a reference for ultimatedriver to know.

First of all, I am not paying MSRP for my M3. My loaded up car is going to cost me 47,500. Secondly, no one said anything about options. IF we are speaking strictly performance, none of the M3 options really boost it save the SMG.

Second, the acceleration times I quoted for the Audi are accurate. 0-60 5.9 manual and 6.5 auto. Third, my BMW with 29,832 miles on it runs a 0-60 time in 6.1 seconds with manual BONE STOCK. BMW is very conservative with its numbers.

Lastly, I think the vast majority of people like to keep their cars more or less stock for lots of significant reasons. My car is over one year old and has been driven very hard and no problems have arisen. You can't compare cars in the "what if" catagory because its simply not a fair judgement. What if i bought a honda 2000 and put a hundred thousand dollars into it? The S4 is a poor mans M3 plain and simple. And yes tiptronic does suck for the last time. Just because something costs less money doesnt mean its better, usually to the contrary. My new M3 verses your S4 will have less than a 5,000 dollar difference and will run all over your car all day long. Early reports say that the SMG gearbox does 0-60 in 4.3 seconds. Compete with that. BTW I wonder if you are aware of the top speed on the two cars when the limiter is removed. BMW stock 178 MPH on the new M3, Audi 156.

Is five thousand more dollars worth the envy resulting from the ownership of an M3? Yes. Is it worth the extra performance? Definately. Is it negligible? Of course. Finance it over six years if you have to and your payments will go up by 60 bucks a month. Or do the smart thing and bank the money first as I have done.

Oh and the next generation S4 will be laughable if built on the new A4 frame. Maybe it will compete with the Mercedes C320 lol. I rest my case.

UltimateDriver7
01 330ci
02 M3 on the way

What a bunch of bullshit. Loaded up car cost 47K? Tell me what you put onto your car then? For you probaly just the Car with PDI and Paint charge will run to $47,000. Which means you took a base M3 not a loaded M3. You suppose to pay under MSRP for the car? That sounds like another BS to me. Most dealership charged way over MSRP on M3 right now. It's basic supply and demand here. BMW only makes 3000 M3 Coupe a year from factory. There is at least 3 times that population that wants it. By the way Audi dealership will sell S4 way under MSRP. The reason being the new generation A4 just came out. A4 3.0 is a lot closer in comparsion to S4 than 2.8 ever was.

2002 M3 $45,900

Destination Charge $645

Topaz Blue Metallic $475

Cold Weather Package $700 (Heated Seats and Headlight Washer cleaning system found on loaded S4)

Premium Package $3,200 (Sunroof, Power Seats, Nappa leather interior, Rain-sensing windshield wipers and Automatic Headlight Control found on loaded S4)

Bi-Xenon headlights $700 (Standard on S4)

Harman Kardon premium sound system $675 (Sound system found on loaded S4)

As you can see I didn't add any junk or items not found on S4.

Total: $52,295

No one said anything about options because that's one part of BMW disadvantage. Loading up comparable equipment cost a lot of money. I wasn't talking about performance. I was talking about standard equipement.

Accurate? Like you been saying manufacture suggested time are conservative. You want to know the manufacture suggested time for 330Ci and M3?

Audi S4 is 5.9 for manual and 6.5 for tiptronic.
330Ci is 6.4 for manual and 7.0 for steptronic.
M3 Coupe is 4.8 for manual and 4.6 for SMG2.

Now I don't see Steptronic making the car any faster than Tiptronic do you? They are both .6 seconds off their manual time.

Your BMW runs 6.1 bone stock big deal. Some S4 runs 5.2 and 5.3 bone stock! That's the difference between real life timeslip and manufacture timeslip.

You want to keep it bone stock because it cost a whole lot of money to mod 330Ci into a serious performance machine. I will keep my bi-turbo V6 and tap into the free hp reserve in the car. It makes dollar and sense for you guys to stay put and Audi owner to go ahead. Afterall your engine can't net you 50hp and 100lb torque with simple $500 dollar chip upgrade. My car is 1 and half year old and it runs like new. The only problem I see it is long term reliabilty (10 years). Turbo engines just doesn't last as long as N/A engines. However in the short term (5 years) it will encounter no problems if properly taken care of. I didn't compare a S4 with 10K upgrades with M3. I just gave that to you for reference regarding the price gap. (See above quote)

What is a Honda 2000? If you are talking about my other car S2000. I can tell you the car is max out already with performance. Regular I/H/E will gain very minimal hp. Only way to tap more is through force induction. If you put $5000-8000 you can use the T4 Turbo and it will run with slightly modify internal at 8psi. The end result is a S2000 with 9000RPM and 400hp. One owner already kill a Z06 after being one of the prototype Turbo tester.

Tiptronic does not suck (See above) try telling Porsche that.

This thread isn't about M3 vs S4. Okay can you read? You seem to miss the sentence over and over. I said BMW build quality cars. However it doesn't mean other company can't build quality cars. Also I'll give you a comparsion. Ferrari 360 Modena Vs Chevy Corvette Z06. Did you know Z06 is faster and maintains a higher lateral G than Ferrari. But Z06 only cost 1/3 of what Ferrari charges for F360 Modena. However I know why Ferrari cost more than Z06. If you want to learn I can explain to you as well.

$5,000 difference that's if you ride with a manual power seats, no sunroof and no Xenon etc. (See above for the actual price of comparable standard equipment)

Let's see if you know your SMG2. Do you know how many stage there is? How to activate the last stage? How fast does it shift compare to Ferrari's F1 system?

You obviously don't understand what top speed limiter removed means. That means you drive up to whatever your car can give you. You probaly have seen clips of S4 doing 165mph+. Some people reach 170mph+ on the autobahn.

I didn't want to tell you but I am on the waiting list for SMG2 M3 as well. There is people on AF that can confirm that.

You know jack about the next generation S4. Do you even know what engine is powering it? If you don't know don't talk shit about it.

Last note this thread isn't about M3 vs S4 but rather 330Ci vs S4. If you want to discuss S4 vs M3 start another thread and I will be there.

First of all, my car IS loaded. It has all the options save the reverse sensors because they look stupid and metallic paint because its jet black. And yes that number is correct. I have an excellent relationship with the local dealer because a) the general manager is a good friend of mine and b) this will be the sixth BMW I've bought from them. He figures that by selling me the car at this price he is doing his business a favor since it will advertise the car to a community that hasnt seen any new ones yet.

Dont talk to me about money- I wrote a check for my last car. If i wanted to load up the 330 with a bunch of aftermarket stuff I would. But there isnt any point. I will only have it another six months tops. The longest ive kept any car (save the Defender) in the last ten years is maybe 28 months. Say what you want about me. BTW I also have a Defender 90 that is loaded up with aftermarket stuff just so you dont think i am some tightwad.

What do you want to know about SMGII? I can probably tell you.

Lastly, the new A4 sucks as much as the new Mercedes C class. Since the S4 is based on the A4 the new S4 will likely suck as well.

As a final note, I think you are way out of line for questioning me all the time. I think I know how much my own car costs. I know about price gouging and all that. Seven years ago I bought an 8 series for about ten grand over MSRP because it was so rare at that time.

I think you should chill out. We are talking about cars here. If you like your S4 than I am happy for you. I like my 330 better. End of conversation.

Now it get's interesting. Please tell me how many people can get a great deal like you? You are lucky because you know the manager however most people don't. Now don't go around and spread rumors that you can buy a loaded M3 for 47K cause it doesn't happen.

I don't care if you are loaded or not. You spread false information then you get hammer.

It's funny how I ask you all the questions about SMG2 and you didn't answer. I know the answers but do you? Now don't try to buy time so you can search it online. That would be pathetic like what you have class yourself to be so far.

New A4 suck? You been saying whatever Audi make suck yet where is your proof? I don't see you providing any evidence to support your case. S4 is not an A4 with sports package okay. There is major difference and that's why it has a S badge in front. It's like do you call M3 a 330Ci with 18 inch wheels? You don't even know what's going to be on the new S4 so how can you make a valid judgement?

Nah when you have your head up BMW ass all the time. It's reasonable someone bring you back down to earth. Stop spreading false information and realize BMW isn't everything.

Who is the hot head here? The only hot head here I see is the one that's being constantly shoot down because he said false information. I am glad you like 330Ci better because for one. You don't even have a clue what S4 can do. Therefore you are just wasting a good quality car IMHO. Anyways if you want to live in your fantasy by all means go ahead. Just don't let me caught you spreading false information around.

You didn't ask me anything specific about the SMGII therefore I cannot answer you. Think next time before you post a response- it makes others believe you have some intelligence. If I were you I would spend a little less time studying up on my Audi and a little more time learning how to speak the English language clearly because your narratives are very difficult to understand IMHO.

Get off my back and I'll get off yours.

BTW the reason the new Audi sucks is because despite a complete revision they were unable to make the car faster.

UltimateDriver7
'01 330Ci
soon to be '02 M3
:flipa: :flipa:

Originally posted by F20C on 11-02-2001 09:46 AM
Let's see if you know your SMG2. Do you know how many stage there is? How to activate the last stage? How fast does it shift compare to Ferrari's F1 system?

Now who's the one that can't read? :finger: I can tell your english is still at grade 3 level. First you don't even understand the topic say 330Ci vs S4. Go back and learn some english and car knowledge before posting again.

Want me to get off your back. All you got to do is stop the bullshit and take your head out of BMW's ass. I know it ain't easy because to you BMW is the greatest no matter what.

Haha you make me laugh. Do you even know what the heck you are talking about? New Audi are bigger than BMW 3 Series inside and out. They have increase weight due to many factors. Such as stronger chassis with higher % bending rate, higher % flex rate and more safety features. Overall the platform it is on is stronger than current 3 Series.

Like I said, the new Audis are still slow. One would expect a performance increase in an updated car, but not from Audi I guess.

Look, every Audi model is less expensive than its BMW counterpart. Say what you want but I think thats all Audi has ever been- a cheap substitute for BMW.

Originally posted by ultimatedriver7

Lastly, I think the vast majority of people like to keep their cars more or less stock for lots of significant reasons. My car is over one year old and has been driven very hard and no problems have arisen. You can't compare cars in the "what if" catagory because its simply not a fair judgement. What if i bought a honda 2000 and put a hundred thousand dollars into it? The S4 is a poor mans M3 plain and simple. And yes tiptronic does suck for the last time. Just because something costs less money doesnt mean its better, usually to the contrary. My new M3 verses your S4 will have less than a 5,000 dollar difference and will run all over your car all day long. Early reports say that the SMG gearbox does 0-60 in 4.3 seconds. Compete with that. BTW I wonder if you are aware of the top speed on the two cars when the limiter is removed. BMW stock 178 MPH on the new M3, Audi 156.


sorry ultimate driver but you're just plain ignorant. Why do you keep comparing the S4 to an E46 M3 if we keep telling you in just about every post that we're comparing 330 vs. S4 (which the S4 obviously beats) how many times do we have say that the S4 isn't meant to compete with the E46!!! The S4 was made a couple years before and was made to compete with the E36 M3, and it does, it's pretty damn close. so just STOP comparing it to an E46. Poor mans M3? I doubt it, i think the prices were pretty close (E36 vs S4)

Once again i gotta say comparing an E46 M3 to an S4 is just stupid... my family has never owned an Audi, but most of our cars have been BMWs, so i should be biased towards BMW.... but the fact that an S4 beats a 330, and competes closesly with the E36, which it was made to do. It's just so obvious, i don't even know what we're talkin bout anymore

Hey everyone be sure to keep responding to my posts from several days ago okay? I know that the comparison is between the 330Ci and the S4 but it shouldn't be and thats what I've been saying all along. It isn't a fair competition but I am sure you all know that without me having to tell you. The S4 is a better performer than the 330 for slightly more money. I have said that from the beginning. However these two cars are not competition for one another and therefore shouldnt be compared. A Chevy Tahoe LT is also competition for the S4 under your money guidelines but are they really competition for one another? Please think about what you say before posting any more stupid comments.

Lets settle this in a cage match - WWF style. No disqualifications. Anything goes.

Originally posted by ultimatedriver7
Hey everyone be sure to keep responding to my posts from several days ago okay? I know that the comparison is between the 330Ci and the S4 but it shouldn't be and thats what I've been saying all along. It isn't a fair competition but I am sure you all know that without me having to tell you. The S4 is a better performer than the 330 for slightly more money. I have said that from the beginning. However these two cars are not competition for one another and therefore shouldnt be compared. A Chevy Tahoe LT is also competition for the S4 under your money guidelines but are they really competition for one another? Please think about what you say before posting any more stupid comments.

:huh:

okay, first of all we've been saying the whole time that the 330 is no competion for the S4.... but you've been comparing it to an E46 M3, and that shouldn't be compared with an S4 either. It was meant to compare with the E36 M3, so it's pointless for you to be saying that the new M3 is alot better.
What money guidelines? Similar price range is just one part of a car competing with another. There are categories, etc. that the car has to fit in. An E46 M3 and S4 are comparable, they are in a similar price range, they were both built tuned and to be sporty, the only difference is one is 4 door and one is 2 door... that doesn't change anything
You can compare an IS300 4-door to a 330ci coupe, it doesn't matter, they're still in the same category and compete with each other

F20C back me up?

Originally posted by ultimatedriver7
Like I said, the new Audis are still slow. One would expect a performance increase in an updated car, but not from Audi I guess.

Look, every Audi model is less expensive than its BMW counterpart. Say what you want but I think thats all Audi has ever been- a cheap substitute for BMW.

You still didn't answer my questions regarding the SMG2. Now let's see you have bought yourself extra 3 day's worth of time. What have you come up for your research project eh?

Anyways the answer to your question. I guess I shouldn't expect BMW to increase performance when they re-design a car either. Let's just talk about your beloved 3 Series. When BMW upgrade from E36 to E46 what happen do you know? You really should know your BMW better.

1998 E36 328is 190 hp, 206 tq, 3142 lbs
2000 E46 328Ci 193 hp, 206 tq, 3197 lbs.

Mind you the engine in E46 is a bit smoother however it does not make up the extra 55 lbs gained. Therefore E46 when introduce is actually slower than it's E36 counterpart. So what do you have to say about this mr ultimatedriver?

A couple things were gained when new A4 came out

1. Performance were gained due to higher output engine
2. Safety feature were gained
3. Handling has improve because of structure rigidty gained.
4. Comfort was gained because it's a much bigger car.
5. WEIGHT gained because of all the new things put into the car.

Audi = cheap subsitute for BMW? So does that mean BMW is cheap subsitute for Benz? Since rich people will buy Benz over BMW for reasons that's not car related.