Code 14 (Kiss of Death?)

Winter came, and with it went the cool running of my car. Besides having what feels like transmission problems, I now have the friendly yellow "Service Engine Soon" light to keep me company on the dash.

With some help from this forum, I managed to jump the formerly useless diagnostic connector and read off my error code, which appears to be 14.

However, no matter how I searched, I could not find a code 14, or any code list for that matter, on the forum.
(plenty of rpo codes, but those aren't gonna help me)

Someimes the car feels like it has power under the pedal, but others I have to have the engine scream and go like a hummingbird to get to the speed limit. Acceleration is also poor sometimes, but other times its fine.

I don't know what causes that, but maybe it can help identify the code 14.

In the end, I'm out of ideas--if anyone knows what's wrong with my ride, I'd be glad to hear it.

Thanks,
--Kevin

According to the FSM for my 93, DTC code 14 is Engine Coolant Temperature(ECT) Sensor Circuit (High Temperature Indicated).

So the computer is seeing a high temperature indication caused by an actual high coolant temperature or faulty sensor or associated circuit.

you seem to be having symptoms of a bad catalytic converter... maybe

I was thinking that the Cat might be dead, for the previous owners of the car didn't take care of it at all, and I stupidly put a static resistor across the IAT plug to increase fuel flow (I had other reasons), which means that a ton of wasted gas probably went straight into the worthless can of platinum known as the catalytic converter.

**Your point is very valid--even with straight transmission problems, pushing the pedal would still make the engine rev higher, or at least do something. There's nothing as 'fun' as having the car rebel against the pedal and not accelerate when you pull onto a major highway or interstate, let me tell you.

"What we got here is a Failure to communicate...some engines you just can't reach, so you get what we had here last drive, which is the way she wants it....well, she gets it. I don't like it any more than you men"


Anyhow, the only code reported by my engine is Code 14, after watching the blinking SES light for eons, so I hear that means bad coolant sensor or high coolant temperature.

So, if you were a coolant sensor in the 92 lesabre, where would you be?

**and still assuming here, how would you be tested to know if I need to go on a quest to scrap one?

Well, with your advice I went out to the car, and I couldn't find anything from the upper-right coolant line from the radiator.

So, I grabbed my weapon against crappy mechanics, the 92 lesabre electronic system manual that I found by chance on ebay, and looked it up.

There's supposed to be 2 connectors for the coolant sensor, if I read this correctly: the sensor and the sender.

The sensor is supposed to be right under the MAF on the throttle body, and a little behind it.

So I looked--got it.

The plastic hose that terminates with the sensor is supposed to split and connect to a coolant temperature sender, which is located right around the corner from the sensor.

So I checked.

Guess what I found??

A brown metal HOLE where the sender SHOULD be, but no sender at all!

Senders and their connectors don't just up and disappear, and GM probably wouldn't leave a hole in the coolant system and document it as being filled on the service books.

I've never looked before now so I can't know for sure, but the fact that it's up and gone makes me think that the screwy repair show (bad history) knocked it out.....

**I hope that it just isn't supposed to be there, but I'm really suspicious....any insight on this?

"Hey--Where's the Sender??!"

A hole that looks like the one the sender should be in :)

Only....it isn't in there.

If it wasn't dark I'd start the engine and see if coolant comes out, but that'll have to wait.......and it would explain the mysterious coolant droppings I found, as well as the slowly depleting coolant recovery tank levels.

Ungh--I just realized what's wrong here--there is most definitely a hole in my engine where a sender should be.

Only problem is, the sender should not be there for my model of car. The sender controls the Temperature gauge on the Manly Instrument Cluster, which I don't have, and the sensor (which I do have) controls the temperature idiot light, and is apparentlly throwing the codes on my engine.

As I never received a Temperature warning light, I'll assume that the computer is telling me the sensor is bad?

**and isn't this hole supposed to be covered if not in use?


Well, to test my theories, is it normal for an engine to just have it's coolant sensor up and die?

Ah--I didn't realize that I never said the year--you are correct sir, it is a 1992 lesabre.

It is possible for the CTS (coolant temp sensor) to have died. Replacing one is fairly straight forward and they're cheap, usually >$10.

Sounds like an easy solution to me--can I just buy one, or is salvaging one a better option?

Doing it right the first time is on my list of priorities, because having to drain coolant is never fun :(

So should I investigate getting an equivalent part from autozone, or is it safer to scrap 2 from a junked (cries) LeSabre and put one in?

True, but I'll have to hit a junkyard sooner or later--the stupid grill frame on my car has a piece broken out of it.

Apparenlty someone didn't realize that there was a secondary release on the hood and tried to pry off the grill....I think they were just practicing idiocy :(

Buying a new one is probably the better option--I'm sure a 16 year old neglected part in a junkyard will be reliable (cough)

Is there any sort of part listing, or do I have to pull it out and take it in to my parts retailer of choice to make sure I get the correct one?

**pulling it out creates a connundrum, cause to pull it out means I'd have to drain the coolant, and draining the coolant means I can't drive the car.

(though I'll have to drain the coolant out anyhow, I would assume, unless I wanna work in a green Old Faithful shooting out the empty hole)

Alright, I've got an update on my progress, and a few questions for you guys out there.

After tracking down the coolant sensor (under the throttle body), my friend and I sucked the coolant from the radiator and the recovery tank.

Then, after much complaining about Buick making a part hard to get to, we managed to break off the plastic terminal housing so that we could get a 3/4" socket on the sucker and wrench it out.

(Note to anyone--Get one of the long 3/4" sockets and an adaptor for <10 bucks at pepboys to be able to install it painlessly....I found that one the hard way)

To no one's suprise, we had Niagara Falls of mountain-dew colored Prestone coolant gushing out the sensor hole. After cleaning all of that up, my friend who I forced to chaffeur me to parts stores and I rode to autozone and pepboys to get the sensor and some sealant, not to mention the correct socket to put the thing in with.

(and to make a ghetto replacement for the hose that connects the airbox to the throttle body--do not put black parts on black things....I left it by the wipers and shut the hood on it, not seeing it in my rush to run to the store....now, it's important that you learn from my mistakes, cause the hood wouldn't open or shut, I wedged it in their just right, and it took over an hour with snips and needle nose pliers, and anger, to pull the piece of crap out. While I'm here I'll mention that PepBoys and AutoZone do NOT stock replacements!)


So, after burning my boy's gas to go to every parts store near and far to get a replacement part that isn't sold, we returned, and stuck the sensor in without a problem. (thread sealant applied)


Next I hooked the recovery tank back up and filled up the radiator.......but here comes my question--I did not put in as much as I got Out of the engine block and radiator combined, and the coolant levels are still the same as they were when I filled them..........could this mean that the coolant isn't making it to the engine??


Of course, the question that you all expected is this--why does my car still throw code 14??!

My pessimism says that the wires to the sensor would be bad, which would suck, but my optimism and logic says that something else must be the problem.

Any ideas, especially about the actual flow of coolant??

(If nothing comes up, I guess I could pull the coolant sensor out and see if any coolant comes out, that would be a cheap way to test circulation, but if nothing comes out, I'll be back here to ask, so I feel I might as well ask first)

Coolant systems usually need burping..

Good Luck.

To no one's suprise, we had Niagara Falls of mountain-dew colored Prestone coolant gushing out the sensor hole. After cleaning all of that up, my friend who I forced to chaffeur me to parts stores and I rode to autozone and pepboys to get the sensor and some sealant, not to mention the correct socket to put the thing in with.

(and to make a ghetto replacement for the hose that connects the airbox to the throttle body--do not put black parts on black things....I left it by the wipers and shut the hood on it, not seeing it in my rush to run to the store....now, it's important that you learn from my mistakes, cause the hood wouldn't open or shut, I wedged it in their just right, and it took over an hour with snips and needle nose pliers, and anger, to pull the piece of crap out. While I'm here I'll mention that PepBoys and AutoZone do NOT stock replacements!)
This thread is totally hilarious!! You ever thought about making a movie titled “Working on my Ride”?:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: You could be the lead actor!:grinyes:
Next I hooked the recovery tank back up and filled up the radiator.......but here comes my question--I did not put in as much as I got Out of the engine block and radiator combined, and the coolant levels are still the same as they were when I filled them..........could this mean that the coolant isn't making it to the engine??
You have air in the system. After you put all the coolant or "mountain-dew colored Prestone”, you can get back in the radiator, start the engine and let it circulate with the cap off of the radiator. Add more coolant as the level drops. Once it is as full as you can get it, reinstall the radiator cap and let it run until you reach full temperature. Next, you need to open the "purge valve" on top of the thermostat housing, to burp any remaining air out of the system. Let it cool down, pull the cap back off and bring the level back up to the neck again. Reinstall the cap and add any remaining coolant to the overflow reservoir. In a few days, check the reservoir again and fill up to the specified hot/cold level on the reservoir tank.

I will try to address your initial problem when I get through laughing at all your post!:rofl::rofl::rofl:

See, I'm glad I asked....I've never heard about how to purge air from the system, and with a 16 year old car that I cherish (and am not ready to relinquish) it's a good thing that I asked before I did something retarded.

**something ELSE retarded, as I have been driving my car in this un-burped condition :(

If you want something to laugh at, the ghetto fix for my airbox is just a k&n clone cone filter strapped directly to the throttle body.

When NO ONE stocks parts, what more can I do to make my car drivable?
(and it looks cool IMO, though putting your air intake right above the exhaust pipe isn't the *best* way to get cold air)

What more can you tell me on playing with the thermostat? I'd rather do it right this time, the first time.

Alright, I have another progress update here.

I ran the engine for a while with the radiator cap off, but the coolant level didn't change....still high tide in the radiator.

So I, after looking through my massively mislabelled Chilton manual found the valve on my thermostat (lol--the only one that was designed to be unscrewed) and gave it 3 turns.

For that effort I was rewarded with a tiny trickle of green coolant.

I ran the engine like this (both valve and cap open) for a minute or so, then shut down the car, replaced the cap to the radiator, and started the car back up. (with the thermostat open)

After seeing nothing but an even Smaller trickle of green liquid, I decided I'd shut the valve on the thermostat for a while.

So, as I let my car idle, I re-tightened the clamps on my ghetto fix air filter, and found that I'm sucking in some beastly hot air with this method :(


After letting my car run enough to reach 'operating temperature' (and the America song from the team america movie soundtrack just ended) I decided to open the thermostat valve again, just to see what would happen.

Well, all I can say here is that I think my thermostat works, because at the higher engine temp the thermostat apparently opened to allow coolant circulation, because the pressure was increased enough to cause a 4 inch green stream of coolant to blast out of the valve, and land directly on the exhaust.

As AF mentioned, coolant on the exhaust does in fact produce white smoke, and needless to say my little plume of white, noxious 'holy' smoke was pretty cool.

So in the end, it looks like the current IS circulating, though I don't believe I put in as much as I got out...during experimentation the coolant level dropped in the radiator, but I think that was just from what came out the bleed off valve on the thermostat.


So I haven't solved my coolant amount problem, and I STILL have no answer to the Code 14 error :(

Once my car cools back down I'm going to check the coolant level, and stick a voltmeter into the plug for the coolant sensor and see if 5V is really going to it....

After reading this thread again and regaining my composure,:rofl::rofl: I have some additional thoughts. I noticed that your focus seemed to be on a possible sensor malfunction, rather than trying to determine if the engine was actually running hot. Have you checked the thermostat to see if it is opening all the way? (You can remove the thermostat, place it in a pan of water on a stove, and bring the water up to 195 deg and it should be fully open). Do the fans ever come on? Do you ever here any gurgling noise coming from the radiator overflow or reservoir? Is your upper radiator hose hot to the touch?:devil:

The upper radiator hose (the one that hooks to the thermostat) gets hot, yes.

I focused on a sensor malfunction because that's what I heard Code 14 meant--coolant temperature sensor bad.

I saw an explanation that said that when error 14 was thrown it meant that there was a resistance of 'infinite' ohms across the sensor, meaning it was D-E-D. I don't know how correct that is, but it would make sense.

BTW, I don't know if this is related, but there seems to be more power under the pedal in my car after trying to bleed the cowardly nemisis of air out of the coolant system.

DTC code 14 is Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) Sensor Circuit (High Temperature Indicated).

This does not necessarily mean that the sensor is bad! It means that the sensor may be reading a high temperature inside the engine for a given period of time. If you still have air in the system, you will have "steam pockets" within the engine and or cooling system.

Try this; Remove the radiator cap and start the engine and let it idle until warm or until you see some circulation through the system. (Feel for hot top hose) Bring the engine RPM up to approximately 1500 and fill the radiator slowly with coolant. Fill to the top of the fill neck and install the cap with engine still running @ 1500. Let the engine come back down to idle, then open/close, the bleed screw several times to release air. (Wait 1-minute between burps) Only coolant flow from the bleeder valve is an indication that the air has been expelled.

Shut the engine off. Fill the overflow tank two or three inches above the "full hot" mark. If the cooling system does not have leaks, the level of coolant in the recovery tank will drop as the system cools down and it will pull coolant in to make up for displaced air and thermal contraction. Bring the level in the recovery tank back up to "full cold" if need be, and maintain the level daily until it stabilizes. You can repeat the fill/burp procedure, for several days to help stabilize the system if you like.:naughty:

I would take the car out for a drive.. If you havent already. 5 miles or so should do it. Most air traps in the upper parts. (duh.. that was silly). If you squish the upper radiator big hose you may see the overflow side bobble and fill jiggles a bit. I see no harm if your fluid is passing out to the radiator do drive a while.

Perhaps its time to address the coolant sensor lines back to the computer.
Oh,, and after you finally hooked it up did you disconnect the battery 10 seconds and reset the codes and see if it comes back?

I show the circuit returning to:
BLUE connector PCM pin 9.. if I read it right.. its just the sense return.. Its yellow (that dont look good) a YELLOW.. wire shown from the sensor and into the PCM..
It is numbered 410 at the PCM for some reason on my schematic.

THe Black comes back through a connector labeled B/H, possibly referecing the firewall BULK HEAD connector and shows to Join/split/share the same line from the throttle position sensor black.. In other words you can check for continuity from the black TPS sensor and the Coolant sensor black.. That way you know it makes it back to the Computer and dont have to worry about it since your TPS is ok. Basically its the low side of both sensors.


I'm making an assumption here but perhaps the black provides a something like the 5v and the yellow returns the difference.. not sure whether it will go up or down on the voltage but it should change with temp change.




Hope that helps.

I had the battery disconnected for hours while I installed the new sensor, and when I hooked it back up, I still had the error 14 logged.

Is there another step to resetting error codes, other than power deprivation?

For the advice about running the car up to see coolant flow, I'd love to take the LeSabre-orean up to 1500 rpms and go back in time to when I didn't have a check engine code, but GM didn't see fit to outfit my ride with a tachometer :(

I'll follow you're advice about coolant flow testing, and I'm hoping that some wire didn't get severed.....because that would be bad, to say the least.

I'm hoping that I just missed some step in clearing error codes--hoping being the key word.

There is another way to clear codes but it's just as efficient...
Many code readers have a function choice to clear codes.

I haven't heard of just one sensor line going bad inside a PCM but it isn't beyond possibilities. It would be more reasonable that more has gone wrong inside than just that code's input line and not having symptoms encourages that presumption.

Wires aren't too bad to replace. Their routing and protection is perhaps more difficult. On that thought a test line could be spliced in running from the sensor to the PCM, just to see if the code clears. Still on that subject with the battery disconnected and the wires off the sensor an ohm meter check to ground would show the continuity to something or nothing. Nothing, max resistance, would more likely be a bad or broken wire and an almost perfect short to ground would be suspect if there was found no open line.

I don't have a code reader (100 bucks I'd rather keep in my pocket)....OBDI was the way--a free paper clip can tell you what a 100 to 200 dollar device does :)

Of course, for our 1996+ bretheren autozone exists to offer free scans to beat down the man, but still.....

So it looks like it's time to get down and dirty with my tinkertoy voltmeter.....I'll let ya'll know what I find....I don't know if I want the 5V across or not....either one sounds annoying to fix.

Is it so bad to want to wire a switch into the SES light circuit?? Check Engine Light..... _NO_ check engine light... :)

Click Here (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=4644704#post4644704) for OBD I code list and instructions on how to retrive codes.

Alright, another update from the garage:

I decided to test the wiring to the coolant sensor, so I liberated the plug from the sensor, fired up the vintage engine, and watched what happened.

The coolant fans kicked in, and suddenly it was like I stuck my hand in a jet engine. The coolant fans work, that's a fact, cause I went from 40 degree weather to feeling frostbitten.

With a little luck (stupid short cables!) and some fancy fingerwork, I managed to slap those probes into the plug. Suddenly, with the completed circuit, the fans dropped out, and I read a little less than 6 volts. That action makes sense, as the voltmeter has a large resistance value, and a large resistance from the coolant sensor (100kOhms) at it's coldest assumed possible measurement.

I'm supposed to be seeing 5V across the plug, but those volts were ranking in just short of 6...even my $10 walmart wonder multimeter shouldn't be off by almost a whole volt on a 10V scale......it was clearly past the 5.5V mark.

Is this fluxuation normal? Could the increased voltage be the cause of my problem? I'm not a fan of that theory, but I can't rule it out just yet.

I'll see about getting my partner in crime to use his DMM to get a reading....though I still am certain that it won't be 5V exactly.



Oh, and if it helps us solve the mystery, here's how the little yellow dashboard friend came to be: I was cruising along the local state highway, and my ride seemed sluggish and lagging, like driving the chevy cavilier of yore....so I was looking for an excuse to break my ride out of the slump.....needless to say an excuse appeared, so I let up and hammered down on the go pedal, and there was a sudden lapse in acceleration, a "cough" I guess you could call it, a sputter, and then a loud sound as my ride suddenly sprang to life and starting smoking asphalt.

As I let up on the accelerator, I noticed that the little yellow light that I'd never noticed before was on.

And so the tale of the wonky Code 14 began :(


Hopefully you guys have some ideas, cause I'm out.

Probing with the DMM into the circuit should not change the circuit to turn off and on the fans with the coolant temp sensor still in the circuit.

The meter should be totally ambiguous to the circuit function.
UNLESS something is wrong with the sensor and its a totally open circuit.
Or your not using a DIGITAL volt meter your using a analogue volt meter.

If Im following correctly.

The fans came on because of the open made in the circuit when the pigtail was disconnected to probe the sensor.

I took the sensor out of the circuit to measure the voltage. :(

Right, just saying, that's why the fan was tho. Safety default, if the circuit voltage goes out of range and can't be used to dtermine the sensor, by default the fan is grounded to prevent over heat. Sort of a 'sefl defense mechanism' :)

The 'safety mechanism' of cooling fans on if the sensor is regarded as d-e-d makes sense, but one thing about it gets me.

If the my ride believes that the engine is too hot to handle, as code 14 reports, then why aren't the fans always on?

When the PCM computer is running it monitors the ECT line for voltage range.
When the range reaches a certain voltage either by a spike or disconnection it stores a code.
Obviously a complete disconnection turns on the fans on your ride.

An example would be if there was a loose circuit wire that occasionally opens.

It may be the computer still has no sense of thats circuit's condition.
Whereas inside the PCM the circuit to control the fans is independently working but the sensor to monitor the ECT circuit inside the PCM has failed.


Good Luck

Wait, you're saying that the system which says "alright it's 144 degrees, time to turn on the fans" and the system which says "hey moron-your engine is overheating"

each read the sensor input independently of each other? That seems intellegent and stupid at the same time.

I guess it's a good thing GM separated those two systems, or else my fans would also be stuck on...however, if they went through all this trouble to ensure that the failure of one system wouldn't screw with other systems, shouldn't they have put some sort of check in on the circuit which is throwing my error?

I mean, the computer must have some checking method, cause it knows that my ride isn't going nuclear....not only does the fan system work (so it seems), but the Temperature light has never been illuminated on the dash.

So the bottom line right now is that the computer has given up after 16 years?

All good things must come to an end, but I only wish the end hadn't come so suddenly :(

Before I start performing lobotomies on cars, is there a way to ensure that the problem does lie within the PCM?

Alright, I've got some remedial questions for you guys:

What does the PCM look like? Where is it located?

and...... What models can I swap one out of?

(I heard that it was under the passenger dash, but after seeing how most of the cars at the junkyard were vastly different than mine down there, I'm not sure.......)

Alright, I've got some remedial questions for you guys:

What does the PCM look like? Where is it located?

and...... What models can I swap one out of?

(I heard that it was under the passenger dash, but after seeing how most of the cars at the junkyard were vastly different than mine down there, I'm not sure.......)

It's not clear in my mind that the code 14 was diagnosed properly. It not, here is a couple of links which may help...

http://www.gnttype.org/maint/malf.html

http://www.topbuzz.co.uk/maintenance/cts/cts.htm

Without cutting into the wiring I can't get a voltmeter in parallel with the sensor....disconnecting the sensor and sticking the voltmeter across gives me a solid 5 volts, so there is power flowing...when I plug the sensor back in, the fans stop, so the sensor at least passes current (which it should as it is brand new!)

On the checklist it seems that I'm down to #4, which is a dead computer :(

Frustrating....why couldn't it have just been the coolant sensor for a 5 minute fix? I'm refusing to let my ride die on me.

Alright, after MUCH laborous effort I was able to take off all of the lower dash panelling and expose the PCM. Now that I've dug deep into the bowels of my ride (and seen all the buildup from 16 years of life), how likely is it that swapping the PCM, assuming I can extract it, will eliminate the Code 14?


**I'd like to note that it only took effort to get the dash off because of the parking brake release; there's a blue plastic endpiece wedged in the arm which provides support for the brake lever itself, and I had to cut into the endpiece with an old-fashioned hacksaw for a ghetto fix to extract it....if the thing could have been easily slid out, I would like to know how ;)

Oh, and while I have my ride dissassembled, is there an easy way to remove the top dash piece, not the speaker cover, but the plastic trim which creates the dash ledge infront of the speaker cover.

Thanks for all the help
--Kevin