1000hp Vg30dett

Is it possible to get 1000 horsepower from the stock bottom end of a VG30DETT?

of course.... just not for more than a few revolutions

I was told by a friend that it is possible to get a VG30DETT to 1000 hp with the stock bottom end.

Tell your friend he is highly optimistic.

But anything's possible. Big enough turbos to keep the intake air temps down along with the tightest A/F control you could get, coupled with a superb intercooling and alcohol injection system. Might get there without blowing it to pieces, might even get a little bit of use out of it before a ring land broke or rod bearing spun into the oil pan.

But you could also build a house out of tooth picks, provided the proper support and engineering went into it. However it would likely suck as a structure and it certainly would be very durable.

Could it be done? Maybe. Why the hell would you even try when the cost of a bottom end build will be a mere drop in the large bucket of cash you'll spend to make 1000hp? I don't know.

I was told by a friend that it is possible to get a VG30DETT to 1000 hp with the stock bottom end.

around 744rwhp is the highest i have ever seen on a stock bottom end. this would be approximately 892hp at the flywheel produced by the engine. this was done on Sean Wagner's 300zx and is still using the same motor today and running very healthy as far as i know.

1000rwhp would be a feat...1000hp at the flywheel, could be done if wanted without much of a hassle i would think.

also keep in mind that this number was done a while ago and he did not have access to some of the new more technologically advanced parts that are now available to the VG.

you probably don't hear about it much simply because people that are building their VG to produce huge amounts of HP also want it to last as long as possible, do the opt to build the motor with the best of the best offered therefore decreasing the likelihood of catastrophic failure.

yeah good old wagz... that was with some pretty intense intercooling too... had the whole fmic and co2 bar going... did he use any sort of methanol injection as well?

i think it would be if you cryogenically froze it . when i was going to school my teacher told me about how him and his friend took a stock 350 and had it sent out to 300 below and then hooked up a 500 shot of nitrous just to see what would happen if it would withstand it .. well needless to say the engine survived nothing broken everything perfect cause they tore it doen completely but they blew up the trans into 1000 pieces lol .. you ever heard of http://www.300below.com freeze to 300 below bringing the molecules closer and tighter making it like 100 times stronger thought it would be pretty cool.. you can take a whole engine there still assembled and works just as good as it would if it was disassembled..

that'd be cool if it wasn't a total load of bs...

that'd be cool if it wasn't a total load of bs...

yeah, if that doesn't break a few laws of physics. :rolleyes:

Actually I dont think it is... I have heard of a lot of people doing this. Well respected tuners included. Its something to do with when the stuff gets frozen then all the miniscule imperfections and cracks dissapear... getting stuff cryo treated is defenately worth getting done imo. I remember reading about it when looking up stuff about modding the GTO.

Actually I dont think it is... I have heard of a lot of people doing this. Well respected tuners included. Its something to do with when the stuff gets frozen then all the miniscule imperfections and cracks dissapear... getting stuff cryo treated is defenately worth getting done imo. I remember reading about it when looking up stuff about modding the GTO.
cryo treatment can oly do so much and i think it is more than freezing metals. from what i can remember cryotreatment helps get rid of "imperfections" i the casting. any gaps or spaces between molecules, it helps it decrease the size thus making it stronger. i dont see how cryotreatment would have much effect on an engine block itself.

bullhonkey... the only way to get the crystal structure in a cast iron, or any steel/ferrous material, is to take it up to above half it's melting point in kelven... this anneals the material making it softer and more ductile... not good for engine blocks... a way to increase the toughness of the material is to bring it up to about 650 degrees C and hold it there for a few days.. this allows the internal stresses of the metal to slowly workthemselves out, as nature tends to want to be at its lowest energy state possible.... not very cost effective anyway...

to harden a material (not recommended if it's undergoing any sort of impact) is to heat it up and cool it rapidly in water, this is called quenching, and makes the exterior of the metal extremely hard, yet also quite brittle (like a ceramic)

trust me, these guys are full of beans..

i think it is more than freezing metals.

Yeah I know, I got lazy and couldnt be bothered typing out the explanation :icon16:

from what i can remember cryotreatment helps get rid of "imperfections" i the casting. any gaps or spaces between molecules, it helps it decrease the size thus making it stronger. i dont see how cryotreatment would have much effect on an engine block itself.

That was what I meant to say... But didnt. And it would have enough of an effect on the block I would say. The laws of physics still still apply. Any imperfections within the block would be cleared up. Ony really useful if you are going to make OBSCENE amounts of power, enough to crack a block anyway.

Delerious: Bullhonky... rofl:lol2: Havent heard that one before. Must be a Canadian thing...:iceslolan

The point of cryo freezing isnt to 'freeze' the metal per say, but moreso, as k3 said, to cause the metal to contract, forcing out the imperfections. You never 'freeze' the metal as in you never force crystaline structures within the metal but you just make it really cold it and then warm it again at a slow steady rate.

i snagged bullhonkey from strongbad... who currently holds the record for the longest one ever said.

anyway.... even if you cool the metal down to -300f, you're condensing the metal a massive .00005"... that's if i calculated it right, because it seems a little high... even then the metal's not condesing much... also taking into account the different thermal expansion rates of the different metallic components.. especially forged pistons which have a much higher expansion rate..

it just doesn't seem very plausable

actually its not bull its been proven to work.. they dont just take it to -300 instantly .. theres a process they go through they cool it to -100 then the liquid nitrogen gets put in and after it done they take it back up to temp slowly ..

movie explains it better :
http://www.300below.com/site/video/NextStep.wmv

In 1994, 300 Below also cryogenically treated components of the world's fastest Harley-Davidson. One automotive racer who had torn down his engine after every seven races found that Paulin's cryo-processing allowed him to run an amazing 32 races without a rebuild. Another motorcycle racer who usually rebuilt his motor after almost every meet (at a cost of $250 to $400 each time) now uses the one-time treatment to make the engine perform for the whole season. Even national champion Go Kart racers are claiming a 1

4-second-perlap increase due to 300 Below's cryogenic treatments.

Automotively, 300 Below has processed crankshafts, camshafts, cylinder heads, connecting rods and blocks. Cylinder heads and blocks have been processed for shops after they have been welded. Welding creates stresses within the metal. Cryogenic processing returns the metal to its original state by stress relieving and stabilizing the metal, making it more durable and less susceptible to microcracking after welding.

Racers and manufacturers have experimented with applying dry ice to heat-treated metals (approximately 110 degrees below) to change the molecular structure of the part. But studies have found that the effect of the shallow (-110 degrees) cold treatments is minimal unless performed as part of the initial heat-treatment cycle. Heattreating is what gives steel its hardness, toughness, wear resistance and ductility. Even performed properly, heat treatment cannot remove all the retained austenite (large, unstable partides of carbon carbide) from a piece of steel.

It is at cryogenic temperatures (-300 degrees Fahrenheit) that the molecules change, making all the retained austenite turn to martensitea more dense, refined mix, smaller and more uniform than austenite. Dry cryogenic processing physically transforms the micro-structure into a new, more refined, uniform substructure, which is stronger. The dry cryogenic process doesn't expose the material to liquids, thus eliminating the risk of thermal shock. The material is computer cooled very slowly, held at a temperature for a determined period of time, then slowly allowed to return to room temperature. The entire process is electronically controlled to perform to a precise time table (20 to 60 hours), allowing the material to adjust to the progressively cooler environment, then return to ambient temperature.

"This process will improve the life of any metal component that is treated," said Paulin, president of 300 Below.

The process will also thermally stress relieve a part. Stress is the enemy of steel if it is not imparted in a uni form manner. Stress boundary areas are susceptible to micro cracking, which leads to fatigue and eventual failure. A study performed at The Polytechnic Institute of Jassy, Romania, used a scanning electron microscope with a microscopic counting device to evaluate additional changes to the structure of steel. The Jassy study found the number of countable small carbides increased on the surface of a heat treatable steel from 33,000 per square millimeter to over 80,000 per square millimeter, as a result of cryogenic processing. This increase in carbides adds greatly to the wear resistance of a part. The carbides make a refined flat "super-hard" surface on the metal (like two pieces of smooth glass rubbed together have much lower friction than two pieces of sandpaper rubbed together). A refined surface structure is not only more wear resistant, but also reduces friction and heat, allowing more rapid movement and greater horsepower.

An additional study by the Department of Mechanical Engineering at Louisiana Tech University supports the increased life claim. Their scientists found that for various metal samples soaked at -320 degrees Fahrenheit, the wear resistance was approximately 2.6 times greater than that for samples soaked at -120 degrees Fahrenheit. The drag racing applications for processed steel products are numerous and can be of great benefit to racers who are on a tight budget. Even the aluminum aftermarket engine blocks used by professional racers can be treated cryogenically.

Think of an ice cube dropped into a cup of coffee. Differential cooling or heating of a mass creates stress because it is expanding or contracting at a different rate on the outside surface than at the core. The ice cube cracks. Aluminum castings have built-in stress due to the shrinkage of the molten metal as it cools in the molds. Moving the entire mass at the same temperature through the temperature cycle will stress relieve it homogeneously.

Among the properties which define the qualities for racing engines, durability is one of the most impor tant. The exciting proven results of 300 Below's testing are decisive in establishing the benefits of cryogenic treatment. Paulin points out that one treatment will last the life of the part. The inexpensive cost for processing parts cryogenically is based on the size, weight and type of part. Some 300 Below case histories have shown a doubling or even tripling of productive life.


"Following treatment, materials show nominal changes in yield and tensile strength. The treated material may become less brittle without losing hardness. What does change most significantly and considerably is the material's toughness, stability, and wear-resistance. Gains between 50% and 500% may occur, depending on the component structure and previous heat-treating." http://www.300below.com/site/jobshoptech2.html


http://www.300below.com/site/gearsolutions.html

they have been featured in dozens of magazines :
http://www.300below.com/site/press.html

that's all fine and dandy... the only issue i have is that austenite can't exist below 120 deg C, no matter how fast or slow you cool the metal... so all this 'retained austenite' stuff is kind of funky...

and as far as i know, crystal structures in the metal can't change unless heated to close to the lower critical temp at 727 deg. c (for ferrous materials)

it still sounds kind of off to me...

eh say what you want i guess youll just have to try it for yourself to be convinced lol

that's all fine and dandy... the only issue i have is that austenite can't exist below 120 deg C, no matter how fast or slow you cool the metal... so all this 'retained austenite' stuff is kind of funky...



Thats exactly what they are saying. The austenite WON'T exist. It would have been turned into marrensite which is stronger than austensite (apparently). It changes when it hits neg 120 degrees. Which is why no austenite exsists in Canada after winter....

no, it doesn't exist below +120 deg C... hell it's equilibrium point is at 727 deg c when there's .8% carbon in the steel... to get austenite down to +120 degrees C you need to instantaneously cool the metal.... like .000001 seconds...

no, it doesn't exist below +120 deg C... hell it's equilibrium point is at 727 deg c when there's .8% carbon in the steel... to get austenite down to +120 degrees C you need to instantaneously cool the metal.... like .000001 seconds...

Ahhhh... Now I see what your getting at. Then yes that might be an error they have in their argument.

The process will also thermally stress relieve a part. Stress is the enemy of steel if it is not imparted in a uni form manner. Stress boundary areas are susceptible to micro cracking, which leads to fatigue and eventual failure. A study performed at The Polytechnic Institute of Jassy, Romania, used a scanning electron microscope with a microscopic counting device to evaluate additional changes to the structure of steel. The Jassy study found the number of countable small carbides increased on the surface of a heat treatable steel from 33,000 per square millimeter to over 80,000 per square millimeter, as a result of cryogenic processing. This increase in carbides adds greatly to the wear resistance of a part. The carbides make a refined flat "super-hard" surface on the metal (like two pieces of smooth glass rubbed together have much lower friction than two pieces of sandpaper rubbed together). A refined surface structure is not only more wear resistant, but also reduces friction and heat, allowing more rapid movement and greater horsepower.

That part of the argument still seems pretty sound.

again, so far, the only way i've heard of a steel being able to change its grain boundaries is with heat, and honestly, doing it with cold makes no sense at all.

the process they're talking about is taking the grey cast iron (full of graphite flakes or the 'carbide' part of the Fe3C(iron carbide)) and allowing them to condense into small balls of graphite... which turns the iron into 'malleable cast iron'

also, the extra smooth glassy surface doesn't sound right, because the carbon atoms are about the same size as the ferrite atoms, so it doesn't make sense they'd be any smoother... however it would be harder, as the Fe3C is a ceramic material...