Time to upgrade?
rubix777
02-04-2007, 01:34 AM
I was taking several hairpin turns on my ninja 250r today on a hilly area by my house.
I was taking some turns faster than I had been before while leaning more and more through the hairpin turns. While leaning into one right hairpin turn, I slid half my rear to the right of the seat and leaned deep into the corner to clear it. Before I know it, the footpeg scraped the ground and got pushed up, which caused the tip of my toe to touch the ground. I was shocked and the bike straightened up very quickly.
At a rest stop, I looked at the footpeg and some of the protective rubber on the screw below the footpeg was scraped off at the angle I had leaned the bike.
I may be still getting used to shifting left and right on the seat, but I'm just wondering if I wanted to keep cornering like this I should get a higher bike?
If the foot pegs were located higher up, I'd be able to lean even more to clear the turn, which has me thinking of getting either a 500R or even a 600cc bike altogether because I feel I need the pegs higher from the ground.
Another question:
When you lean and make the turn, after you are turning, do you forcefully turn the forks in the direction you are going?
For example, as I enter into a hairpin turn, I lean and turn to the right, then as I get into the tightest portion of the turn, I find out I need to tighten it more. To do that I simply leaned more without turning the handle bars more. Was I supposed to turn the handle bars more to the right as well as lean to the right?
I was taking some turns faster than I had been before while leaning more and more through the hairpin turns. While leaning into one right hairpin turn, I slid half my rear to the right of the seat and leaned deep into the corner to clear it. Before I know it, the footpeg scraped the ground and got pushed up, which caused the tip of my toe to touch the ground. I was shocked and the bike straightened up very quickly.
At a rest stop, I looked at the footpeg and some of the protective rubber on the screw below the footpeg was scraped off at the angle I had leaned the bike.
I may be still getting used to shifting left and right on the seat, but I'm just wondering if I wanted to keep cornering like this I should get a higher bike?
If the foot pegs were located higher up, I'd be able to lean even more to clear the turn, which has me thinking of getting either a 500R or even a 600cc bike altogether because I feel I need the pegs higher from the ground.
Another question:
When you lean and make the turn, after you are turning, do you forcefully turn the forks in the direction you are going?
For example, as I enter into a hairpin turn, I lean and turn to the right, then as I get into the tightest portion of the turn, I find out I need to tighten it more. To do that I simply leaned more without turning the handle bars more. Was I supposed to turn the handle bars more to the right as well as lean to the right?
jeffcoslacker
02-04-2007, 07:44 AM
I don't know what's considered "right"...Aussie or someone else will tell you...
But I use the throttle...when leaned over and cornering, if you back off the throttle the bike will tuck in tighter pretty much on it's own...same but reversed for corner exit, about 2/3 of the way through you want to roll the power back on, and the bike will stand up and straighten out in response to that input, while creating a good bite on the road.
If you aren't seeing this, you may be not yet taking the curves in the correct gear range to utilize it fully....you don't want to brake into a corner, rather find a gear that gives you the decel you want going in, and the torque you want coming out....I see a lot of people that kinda roll through the curve after braking it down to entry speed, and then downshift as they exit and get on it....that's not correct in my thinking, you probably should have already been in that gear all the way through....
Those pegs are place where they are to let you know you are approaching the design limit of bank angle...you can get a bit more by moving them or using stubbier ones, then you'll scrape the exhaust can when you get over as far as possible....not much you can do from there....that's some serious leanin' :eek:
But I use the throttle...when leaned over and cornering, if you back off the throttle the bike will tuck in tighter pretty much on it's own...same but reversed for corner exit, about 2/3 of the way through you want to roll the power back on, and the bike will stand up and straighten out in response to that input, while creating a good bite on the road.
If you aren't seeing this, you may be not yet taking the curves in the correct gear range to utilize it fully....you don't want to brake into a corner, rather find a gear that gives you the decel you want going in, and the torque you want coming out....I see a lot of people that kinda roll through the curve after braking it down to entry speed, and then downshift as they exit and get on it....that's not correct in my thinking, you probably should have already been in that gear all the way through....
Those pegs are place where they are to let you know you are approaching the design limit of bank angle...you can get a bit more by moving them or using stubbier ones, then you'll scrape the exhaust can when you get over as far as possible....not much you can do from there....that's some serious leanin' :eek:
jeffcoslacker
02-04-2007, 07:51 AM
When you lean and make the turn, after you are turning, do you forcefully turn the forks in the direction you are going?
For example, as I enter into a hairpin turn, I lean and turn to the right, then as I get into the tightest portion of the turn, I find out I need to tighten it more. To do that I simply leaned more without turning the handle bars more. Was I supposed to turn the handle bars more to the right as well as lean to the right?
This kinda got by me....no, the opposite really, you'd want to COUNTERSTEER left slightly as you tuck over harder to the right in this instance...you only steer the direction you want to go at walking speeds...it's sounds crazy, but it's the same thing you did on your bicycle without realizing it...steering in the direction of the turns makes the bike want to stand up, undoing what you are trying to acheive....
Always look into the turn at where you want to be, not where you are, visualizing your line, and you'll usually do the correct thing without even thinking about it...
For example, as I enter into a hairpin turn, I lean and turn to the right, then as I get into the tightest portion of the turn, I find out I need to tighten it more. To do that I simply leaned more without turning the handle bars more. Was I supposed to turn the handle bars more to the right as well as lean to the right?
This kinda got by me....no, the opposite really, you'd want to COUNTERSTEER left slightly as you tuck over harder to the right in this instance...you only steer the direction you want to go at walking speeds...it's sounds crazy, but it's the same thing you did on your bicycle without realizing it...steering in the direction of the turns makes the bike want to stand up, undoing what you are trying to acheive....
Always look into the turn at where you want to be, not where you are, visualizing your line, and you'll usually do the correct thing without even thinking about it...
Masonovsky!
02-04-2007, 11:05 PM
you only should upgrade if you feel the bike is hampering you as a rider. If you feel that you could do much better but you don't have enough power to do it then its time for a 500R or possibly an older 600cc bike.
rubix777
02-05-2007, 12:43 AM
I'm satisfied with the ninja 250 powerwise. I didn't go full throttle through a turn in order to scrape the pegs. I just leaned more and more. Before I knew it, it scraped and the bike kind of wobbled as my foot touched the ground and kicked up. Through the turn, I think I may be shifting the weight wrong because I find that when I shift my weight, my bike leans more in the same direction. I believe moving on the seat is supposed to reduce bike lean. I still have much to learn.
jeffcoslacker
I always thought the countersteer was to initiate the turn, and then afterwards, the leaning took care of the rest of the turn. For some reason, I think something bad will happen if I'm leaning right through a right turn and decide to turn the handle bars to the left.
jeffcoslacker
I always thought the countersteer was to initiate the turn, and then afterwards, the leaning took care of the rest of the turn. For some reason, I think something bad will happen if I'm leaning right through a right turn and decide to turn the handle bars to the left.
Masonovsky!
02-05-2007, 12:46 AM
countersteering helps keep the bike sideways and therefore put you at a better angle to attack the turn...so if you steer right the wheels are going towards your body and therefore the wheels go under you and stand the bike up...making it harder to turn...
aussieidiot
02-05-2007, 01:22 AM
finally a meaty topic which isn't "what bike to buy"
if your scraping your foot pegs on a Ninja then your doing well. but heres my tips.
to turn left, counter steer to initiate then turn but hold the line once started. if you need to turn harder then move your upper body out more. this will turn you without increasing the lean angle. or slow some speed off which will drop the bike lower. more gas to lift the bike back up. keep the balls of your feet on the pegs to save a accidental bump of the gear shifter. the litle knobs on the pegs are indicators or "hero knobs".
i video'd my track days from my tank. it shows a clear view of the dash, bars and road. my bars barely move. they are pretty much straight the whole time. the counter steer is to make the line of drive and gravity out of balance so as to let the bike fall then centrifical (or centrifugal, i'm not sure) forces keep the bike on line.
i also lean my body off the bike to move as much weight of the centre of gravity so as to be able to lean the bike less but maintain a high corner speed. looks less impressive but i manage to keep up with the knee sliders.
check my avatar and you'll see my ass isn't even on the seat. only my thigh is.
i reckon its time to upgrade if you can honestly say you've reached to 250's maximum potential and nothing scares you on it anymore
if your scraping your foot pegs on a Ninja then your doing well. but heres my tips.
to turn left, counter steer to initiate then turn but hold the line once started. if you need to turn harder then move your upper body out more. this will turn you without increasing the lean angle. or slow some speed off which will drop the bike lower. more gas to lift the bike back up. keep the balls of your feet on the pegs to save a accidental bump of the gear shifter. the litle knobs on the pegs are indicators or "hero knobs".
i video'd my track days from my tank. it shows a clear view of the dash, bars and road. my bars barely move. they are pretty much straight the whole time. the counter steer is to make the line of drive and gravity out of balance so as to let the bike fall then centrifical (or centrifugal, i'm not sure) forces keep the bike on line.
i also lean my body off the bike to move as much weight of the centre of gravity so as to be able to lean the bike less but maintain a high corner speed. looks less impressive but i manage to keep up with the knee sliders.
check my avatar and you'll see my ass isn't even on the seat. only my thigh is.
i reckon its time to upgrade if you can honestly say you've reached to 250's maximum potential and nothing scares you on it anymore
rubix777
02-05-2007, 01:34 AM
I'm dying to get a camcorder to attach to my bike in order to see what is actually happening as I go through a turn. Judging optimum entry speed is still something I'm learning as I tend to slow way down, then accelerate through the turn at 4-5k rpm. The hairpin turn that I scraped the footpeg in was a blind up hill turn and I was probably doing 4-5k rpm again.
Your logic makes sense in maintaining the lean angle by countersteering. I will try taking that turn again by countersteering. My tendency is to lean more rather than input through the steering in order to take tighter corners.
I will get some pictures up the next time I go there, which should be this weekend.
Your logic makes sense in maintaining the lean angle by countersteering. I will try taking that turn again by countersteering. My tendency is to lean more rather than input through the steering in order to take tighter corners.
I will get some pictures up the next time I go there, which should be this weekend.
jeffcoslacker
02-05-2007, 09:08 PM
My Intruder's Achilles heel was that stupid chrome bracket slung under the frame that the footpegs bolt to...first thing to touch down when you get over too far, and since it's solid, it will lever your rear wheel right off the ground...which is...interesting :eek: ...I found out the second day I had it when I dove for a highway entrance ramp abrubtly and GRRAAATTTCCCHHH!!! and the rear wheel began hopping happily sideways...I countered the hop and wrestled it back under me...put on my patented "I meant to do that" facial expression for the cars around me, and continued on home to change underwear..:lol:
rubix777
02-05-2007, 09:48 PM
countersteering helps keep the bike sideways and therefore put you at a better angle to attack the turn...so if you steer right the wheels are going towards your body and therefore the wheels go under you and stand the bike up...making it harder to turn...
I practiced countersteering once in the lean and it amazingly works great! While leaning, I have to learn to hold my bike upright so my leaning doesn't cause the bike to lean more.
I went through Turnbull Canyon again. Here's a bird's eye view of it.
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h195/rubix777/turnbullred.jpg
Notice the hairpin turn circled in red. I pulled over and took a pic of it after taking that turn in 2nd gear 4k rpm--the engine starts to lug when I get below 4k. I think optimal rpm would be between 6-8k? I was pretty scared to go any faster. That was the turn I scraped my footpeg--while going up hill.
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h195/rubix777/P1011021.jpg
Going downhill and seeing this:
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h195/rubix777/P1011022.jpg
is just way too scary.
Wonder if this guy is countersteering..? o.O
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h195/rubix777/w05_Medium.jpg
I practiced countersteering once in the lean and it amazingly works great! While leaning, I have to learn to hold my bike upright so my leaning doesn't cause the bike to lean more.
I went through Turnbull Canyon again. Here's a bird's eye view of it.
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h195/rubix777/turnbullred.jpg
Notice the hairpin turn circled in red. I pulled over and took a pic of it after taking that turn in 2nd gear 4k rpm--the engine starts to lug when I get below 4k. I think optimal rpm would be between 6-8k? I was pretty scared to go any faster. That was the turn I scraped my footpeg--while going up hill.
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h195/rubix777/P1011021.jpg
Going downhill and seeing this:
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h195/rubix777/P1011022.jpg
is just way too scary.
Wonder if this guy is countersteering..? o.O
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h195/rubix777/w05_Medium.jpg
klohiq
02-05-2007, 09:57 PM
Honestly if you aren't sure about how to corner properly then you maybe shouldn't be thinking about a new bike at all for awhile. You do sound like you are doing alright, but maybe take it easy in the corners too. Before leaning off the bike you should know what to do in a corner and when. Jumping to the more advanced stuff is a sure way to mess up yourself or the bike.
I'm onto my second bike after a stupid idea to buy a '87 zx1000r for my first bike. After stalling it a handful of times and doing a 360 in the middle of the road and getting thrown off I figured it was time to get a smaller bike. With the SV650 I haven't even come close to dumping it and it feels planted even while driving in the snow or rain.
I'm onto my second bike after a stupid idea to buy a '87 zx1000r for my first bike. After stalling it a handful of times and doing a 360 in the middle of the road and getting thrown off I figured it was time to get a smaller bike. With the SV650 I haven't even come close to dumping it and it feels planted even while driving in the snow or rain.
rubix777
02-05-2007, 10:54 PM
Honestly if you aren't sure about how to corner properly then you maybe shouldn't be thinking about a new bike at all for awhile. You do sound like you are doing alright, but maybe take it easy in the corners too. Before leaning off the bike you should know what to do in a corner and when. Jumping to the more advanced stuff is a sure way to mess up yourself or the bike.
I'm onto my second bike after a stupid idea to buy a '87 zx1000r for my first bike. After stalling it a handful of times and doing a 360 in the middle of the road and getting thrown off I figured it was time to get a smaller bike. With the SV650 I haven't even come close to dumping it and it feels planted even while driving in the snow or rain.
I hear you. I agree with what you are saying and I believe there's so much more a 250 is capable of. I already ordered two books, 'Twist of the Wrist' and it's sequal, Twist of the Wrist II' so I can't wait to start reading them. I have a friend in a 92 nissan 240sx go up that hill with me.
I'm sure when I ride this bike to its full potential, I'll be able pull away from him, or even at the least catch up to him. So I guess until I can outrun cars on the twisties, I still have a lot to learn.
I'm onto my second bike after a stupid idea to buy a '87 zx1000r for my first bike. After stalling it a handful of times and doing a 360 in the middle of the road and getting thrown off I figured it was time to get a smaller bike. With the SV650 I haven't even come close to dumping it and it feels planted even while driving in the snow or rain.
I hear you. I agree with what you are saying and I believe there's so much more a 250 is capable of. I already ordered two books, 'Twist of the Wrist' and it's sequal, Twist of the Wrist II' so I can't wait to start reading them. I have a friend in a 92 nissan 240sx go up that hill with me.
I'm sure when I ride this bike to its full potential, I'll be able pull away from him, or even at the least catch up to him. So I guess until I can outrun cars on the twisties, I still have a lot to learn.
klohiq
02-07-2007, 02:44 PM
twist of the wrist is really good...i got a preview of it with one of my euro bike mags
yeah if your friend doesn't have much done to his 240sx you should actually be able to beat him in a drag race too...though his car should top around 112 whereas your bike runs out of speed probably a little above 80...probably tops out around 100-110?? not sure, but the 240sx will definitely show you tail lights if you have too many straights lol...corners though you should be able to keep up pretty easily...but do take it easy, no need to die just to overtake your buddy
yeah if your friend doesn't have much done to his 240sx you should actually be able to beat him in a drag race too...though his car should top around 112 whereas your bike runs out of speed probably a little above 80...probably tops out around 100-110?? not sure, but the 240sx will definitely show you tail lights if you have too many straights lol...corners though you should be able to keep up pretty easily...but do take it easy, no need to die just to overtake your buddy
Z_Fanatic
02-09-2007, 02:49 AM
when ridden right, 250 with higher rear sets and firmer suspension (no need to add power) will smack s13-s15 in the tightest corners and hairpins. 2700 pound car against a 300 pound bike, not even drift king/ grip king is going to keep up. When the 240sx will get you is if it has some nice aftermarket brakes, and basically on straights (assuming it's running the sr20det), given the ninja 250 motor is stock. the argument is pretty similar when comparing low powered bikes to big bores.
aussieidiot
02-09-2007, 02:49 PM
i wouldn't be pushing too hard in corners racing your mates. thats when you'll go down.
i raced my mate on my older GSXR 750 when he was in a skyline R33 GTS-t (bigger intercooler, blow-off valve, etc). standing start from lights and hard right hander about 30m away. although i could get the jump on him any day that corner had to be taken slow (i had to either go slower than normal take off or boot it and brake hard in first. so he boots it and gets alongside but as hes inside, he gets infront on the exit. his limiter kickes in at 180k's so i scream past at over 200 towards the next set of corners. then as i'm trying to judge whats nice tarmac and whats slippery shit and stay in front, hes pressing hard on my rear sliding.
bikes need to be smooth to be fast. the line your in for one corner should be setting you up for the next corner. the throttle has to be smooth too. the problem i had was i couldn't open up quick because the rear would slide out if the throttle was opened too early and hard. ease it on and the bike stands up as you apply more.
in all honesty, the ninja you guys have is the same as our GPX 250 and its a slower learner bike than the ones most of us get. our ninja 250 is a ZX2R. the gpx is considered a good learner bike but speed nuts never get 'em. its a soft tourer compared to the ZX. it'll be hard pressed to beat most sports cars in a straight line.
heres a ZX2r for sale
http://www.bikesales.com.au/as/search/sd.do?recIndex=7&modelID=895&makeID=42&page=0&selectedModelIndex=86&y=11&selectedMakeIndex=37&previousResultPerPage=20¤tPage=1&x=49
i raced my mate on my older GSXR 750 when he was in a skyline R33 GTS-t (bigger intercooler, blow-off valve, etc). standing start from lights and hard right hander about 30m away. although i could get the jump on him any day that corner had to be taken slow (i had to either go slower than normal take off or boot it and brake hard in first. so he boots it and gets alongside but as hes inside, he gets infront on the exit. his limiter kickes in at 180k's so i scream past at over 200 towards the next set of corners. then as i'm trying to judge whats nice tarmac and whats slippery shit and stay in front, hes pressing hard on my rear sliding.
bikes need to be smooth to be fast. the line your in for one corner should be setting you up for the next corner. the throttle has to be smooth too. the problem i had was i couldn't open up quick because the rear would slide out if the throttle was opened too early and hard. ease it on and the bike stands up as you apply more.
in all honesty, the ninja you guys have is the same as our GPX 250 and its a slower learner bike than the ones most of us get. our ninja 250 is a ZX2R. the gpx is considered a good learner bike but speed nuts never get 'em. its a soft tourer compared to the ZX. it'll be hard pressed to beat most sports cars in a straight line.
heres a ZX2r for sale
http://www.bikesales.com.au/as/search/sd.do?recIndex=7&modelID=895&makeID=42&page=0&selectedModelIndex=86&y=11&selectedMakeIndex=37&previousResultPerPage=20¤tPage=1&x=49
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