SCARY Saturn problem!

I don't know if I'm not warming my car up long enough sometimes, and it might be because my car is really old....it's a '95 with over 160k mileage.

Basically, my car will start to shake a LOT like I'm stalling out (it's a manual btw) and then it will just die out in the middle of me driving it. I was thinking it may be because I haven't been warming it up long enough because each time it happened I didn't warm it up for too long...it happened last night when I let it warm up for about 2-3 minutes...I usually wait about 5? But I don't think that should make my car do this!

So then it was acting weird after I barely got it home last night, and it would shake really badly while it was running and the service engine soon light came on. So this morning I was trying to see what's wrong with it and when I started it it still kept shaking. When I lightly pressed the accelerator the rpms would drop really low almost like my car was about to die and then they would recover and slightly go up...so I test drove it a bit down my block and everytime I switched out of a gear to neutral the rpm would drop really low and my car would start shaking like it was about to die out. After I barely got it home again I started it back up and had the key in the ignition for like 10 seconds when it finally started up....and it almost seemed to work like that never even happened! The service engine light was off and now I could drive it all the way around the block this time but the rpms this time were reallly high. They would stay like over 2,000 whenever I just was coasting down a hill in neutral under 20 mph.

Now, idk what's exactly wrong with it but it would appear that either the electrical power is not getting through to the engine properly..? Or the engine may have been flooded with gasoline? I'm not sure, but I don't know anything about cars. I checked the fluid levels and just had an oil change...everything seems to be fine with that. On a side note, whenever I start my car I usually rev the engine a couple times to about 2,000 cuz that seems to help it warm up faster...is that bad for your car? Cuz I'm thinking the engine might have been flooded? And when I started it this morning when it started working, I pushed the accelerator down some while it was starting...But it's really weird how it just dies out in the middle of me driving it...something else has to be wrong with it.

Well right now I'm scared to mess with it anymore....can someone PLEASE help me? Is my car possessed?!

Since your car is EFI, revving it won't help it warm up and its slightly bad for it. Not terrible, but there is absolutely no reason to do it. The other things like flooding and electric would be more steady problems that would have other symptoms. You shouldn't have to do anything with the pedal to start it. Just turn the key and it should start in a couple seconds.

The problem is elsewhere. Since its just running rough its very difficult to guess what's wrong without driving it, but since you have a check engine light, the first course of action is to take it to major chain parts store and have the codes checked for free. Don't pay for it, there is always a parts store that will do it free. Since your car is OBD1, it won't be very specific but it might shed some light on what's going on.

Alright thanks man....can you please enlighten me as to who would possibly diagnose my car for free though? it usually runs about $60-90 around here...at like autozone. I don't know where to look to get it done for free. The service engine light is no longer on now either. Also, how much do you think it would cost to get it fixed if the problem was a worse case scenario?

And how much longer do you think my car could last for? It's a 1995 Saturn SL 2 with about 165,000 miles on it. I was hoping it would last another good year or so...and besides the aforementioned problem, the only thing wrong with it is the struts and alignment need to be fixed.

It sounds a lot like an ignition fault.

You can either pay the money to get it diagnosed, you can learn how the ignition system works and try it yourself, or you can just start replacing parts, starting with the leads, until you find the faulty part.

My guess would be fuel starvation.
But it's only a guess.

Auto Zone, Advance, Checker, Shucks, Kragen, O'Reilys... all of them should offer free diagnostics. Pep Boys usually have a service department so they try to make you pay, but almost all big chain parts stores should offer free diagnostics in the hopes that you'll buy parts there. If you go to one and they want money, go to another one.

Worst case scenario is that you have an old tired engine and it needs to be replaced or rebuilt which is several thousand bucks. A Saturn with 160k on the ticker could be good for another 50k or it could be living on a prayer for the last 50k. Carefully consider your repair investment based on resale value and the price of a used Corolla. :)

The good news:

Although it is scary, the steering and brakes are just a symptom and will be just fine when the "engine running" is fixed. They are probably power brakes and steering and need the engine power to assist.

Warming up will not affect it any, and maybe something expensive or could also be something very cheap and easy.

A couple of questions may perhaps help people narrow it down.

How long has it done this?
Did it run great before problem started?
Was it all of sudden or gradually get worse?
How is it when warmed up?
How is it on highway?
Is it intermittent? or does it ever run good?

sounds like you have a misfire. Why its misfiring can be for a lot of reasons.

A good shop/mechanic would be able to find the problem quickly for little money.

Man Idk where you guys live but finding a place that does diagnostics for free around here is a joke. Most are $80-90, I luckily found one that does it for $40. And I've asked if they could look at my car but they said they would have to do a diagnostics and the problem wouldn't be easy to figure out...also since my car is OBD1 the codes likely didn't save so it'd only be a waste of money to diagnose it unless the check engine lights are on for good. I wish someone here would have told me that sooner! I don't even know how I'm gonna get it to the store once that problem happens again though....

How long has it done this? On and off a total of about 3-5 times over the last...4 months?
Did it run great before problem started? Yes. It still does...it's like nothing ever happened!
Was it all of sudden or gradually get worse? Both? The first time it happened my car didn't die, but the rpms were acting weird and getting really low as well as the check engine light coming on, then it started dying, and just last time it died and almost wouldn't start working normally.
How is it when warmed up? Fine.
How is it on highway? Don't usually go on the highway, but it's been fine.
Is it intermittent? or does it ever run good? Like I said, it almost randomly happens....although it's from what I can remember mostly happened when I haven't warmed it up for as long as usual. Now I'm so paranoid I warm it up for like 10 minutes!

Yea seems to be a ...missfire or whatever. or something. My dad and I have come to the conclusion it's likely something with the fuel injection. My dad thiks something is getting "stuck" ....but Idk.

Man the major problem here is that my inspection is dead and I need new tires to pass...but this happened at the worst time cuz my car may not even be useful enough to have anymore if it's having engine problems...so if I get tires to get state inspection it may just be a waste...!!

Sounds like you need a tune up. Spark plugs, Ignition Wires, Distributor Cap and Rotor button. These items are relatively inexpensive to acquire and are basic. Also, a fuel filter might be in order. I don't know if that's what you need or if your engine is being starved of fuel but it never hurts especially if you're riding on the original fuel filter and spark plugs.

BTW, those major chain stores will scan your ECU for free. Go to one without a garage. Those are the ones that just sell parts and will do it for free. I'm sure you've seen them out at the curb testing people's batteries etc.

Kay....I didn't think autozone did it for free but they do apparently...I don't know how it's possible though...I don't think it's the same kinda engine diagnosis that other people do cuz it's free!! compared to most others charging $90....but I'll see what's up with that. Thanks...I just didn't think they'd do it because their not really a mechanic shop kinda place....but I don't know how helpful that "diagnosis" will be...

all they do is scan codes. It being a 95, I doubt its OBD2, so they probably won't scan it.

Ok look man. This is simply a fuel starvation problem like someone said before. If the car is fine when it's warm, then you know there's no big problem with the engine. It's definately NOT a spark plug and wire problem because it would run bad in general. I'm thinking that you have a problem with your fuel pump when it's cold. It could be a dying pump or it could be gas that is starting to freeze, or a clogged fuel filter. For all you know, it could be a fuel pressure regulator problem. Just get it checked out by some cheap mechanic, and you'll realize that it aint too expensive. Your symptoms sound like something between $50 and $300 (for a new fuel pump + installation).

You only need to let your car idle for about a minute before you should start driving it. Otherwise, you're wasting gas, it causes carbon buildup on exhaust components, and apparantly it's bad for the engine (who knows). People think that if they let their car warm up for 15 minutes, they're doing it a favour. The reality is, your transmission fluid is still cold because the transmission is not moving when the car is in park. So when you pop it in gear, and floor the gas, you're destroying your transmission. Now most manual cars don't have trans fluid, so this isn't as big of a deal. But your bearings are still cold, and so are your breaks, etc. So you should warm up the car for 1 minute and start driving slowly for the first 2-3 km. I know the car will be cold, but it's not worth wasting your money and damaging the car for a little bit of cold weather.

Aright, thanks man...I think your right. You sound like you know what your talkin about and it definitely seems to be the case because when I pushed the accelerator when that happened it was almost as though the fuel wasn't getting through properly or whatever. Are you sure I should only warm it up for a minute? That seems like it wouldn't be long enough...the weather around here now is in the teens just about and I noticed as I let the car warm up over a good 5 minute period the rpms which start at a bit over 1,000 slowly drop a bit. I will get this looked at....now I just need to find a "cheap mechanic" ....not sure where to look but thanks for your help!

Ok look man. This is simply a fuel starvation problem

That's what I mentioned earlier. All the symptoms fit.
Engine bogging when the throttle is just opened and fuel demand suddenly increases. Exactly what happens when an engine is running too lean.
Shakes happen when the revs drop, your check-engine-light also comes on.

The only part that doesn't fit was the engine idling at 2000rpm.

A code scan might pick up lean mixture, but a code scan is not a replacement for real mechanic work.

I agree that it could be a fuel flow issue, but even if it is a fuel flow issue, that doesn't nail it to a fuel pump.

I know my posts on these types of questions are rubber-stampish. Here's the reality.

We have a poster that is not very car savy. He could be missing very important info. We have very little data to work with. Any advice I offer, as a mechanic, will most likely be a costly experiment.

All that vs what it costs to get it diagnosed properly, using real data to pinpoint the problem. Its simply not cost-effective to recommend X, Y or Z, unless the person a) can get them for free or nearly free, and b) is confident, capable and has the tools to install them themself.

And then you get into the question of time vs money. IS the amount of trial and error that very possibly could be involved worth it? That will depend on the person in question of course.

Of course, there are unknowns with my suggestion. The particular mechanic that gets saddled with diagnosing it, might not be too good, and might recommend unnecessary stuff. Always a possibility. But I would personally have more faith in someone that does it for a living than questionable predictions from people on the net (including my predictions)

If you can give me codes, data stream, specific component output, I could tell you exactly what the problem is. Without those items, or just a small amount of those items, its somewhere between a somewhat educated guess, all the way out there to a wildly uneducated guess.

This isn't an attempt to dissuade people from attempting to fix their own vehicles, mind you. But if money and time are factors....I think its a losing game.

here's an example from work today:

Guy I know....comes in with a chevy luv with a SBC V8 in it. He just picked it up a few months ago. Has complained previously about it running poorly over 1/2 throttle. First time I glanced at it.....spent very little time at it, I told him the carb isn't jetted right. Thats his problem. He's convinced its something else, doesn't like my advice and leaves.

Fast forward to today. His truck dies on him 2 blocks up the street. So he walks in and asks me to take a look at it. He spent over an hour messing with it, trying to encourage it to run. He's conviced its an ignition problem.

Loaded with my knowledge of whats wrong with it, I spend the 10 minutes walking with him over to his truck. For humor's sake, I bring with me an ignition module. I ask for the keys, jump in it, hold the gas to the floor and crank it. It fires up after 10 seconds of cranking.

I had predicted he had flooded it, because of my previous look at it, I knew it was running way too rich. My prediction was correct. He finally agreed that we should take care of the carb problem.

This took very little time out of my day. It took a lot more out of his. It cost me nothing, he missed work today. (and god knows how much gas he's thrown away in this thing, with its horrible mileage)

Point being, he didn't know what he was doing and lost a lot because of it. Just one example, not relating it to this particular situation.

all they do is scan codes. It being a 95, I doubt its OBD2, so they probably won't scan it.

Sorry yeah I didn't think about that.

And you're right. After all, we're on the net and can't see his vehicle. I'm sure a mechanic who works on 10 year old 0BD1 cars could help him rather quickly. I just hate to see people who work hard for their money go to a place to have their vehicles fixed and get charged ridiculous amounts of money for something relatively basic. I vowed never to have this happen to me again so I started learning about my cars so I could be aware of any issues that might take place...

Yea man, they tried to charge me an insane price at the saturn dealership just to get my struts fixed. Now if money wasn't a problem, this whole issue would be quite simple, but obviously you probably can tell that it is, because I'm driving a '95 saturn.

So yea, they couldn't diagnose it at autozone...but just to give you guys more clarification about my problem-

The car starts fine generally. The rpm starts a bit higher when I first start the car, maybe at about 1.2k rpms, and usually lowers a slight bit to about 1k rpms on the dot. sometimes a tad bit lower even, to .9k rpms. I think this is generally because of the weather.

Now when my car gets messed up is when it'll start shaking really badly just like how it does if your letting off the cluth in first gear without applying any gas. It'll do this and die...the rpms will be going crazy right before and during it happening...that is, they'll go really low when the car isn't in gear or being driven.

When it happened to the point where my car wouldn't stop shaking each time I started it up, I can barely drive it for each time I switch gears the rpms drop real low like it's about to die. Right after it started working fine again that day, the rpms would go really high up to like 2k each time I put it in neutral and stayed there until I came to a complete stop, which it would then begin lowering. That isn't typical though.

Usually however, when I'm driving my car and I'm just coasting it on the road or coasting down a hill in neutral, right when I take it out of gear and put it in neutral the rpms will actually go up a bit for a few seconds, around 2k, then lower. The day my car got really messed up though is when it had stayed at or over 2k until I either put it back into gear, which it would then lower immediately and start to go up again when I accelerated, or until I came to a complete stop which it would then gradually lower.

Maybe this can offer you guys some insight...? Also, another question I have, is if the problem is something with the fuel flow (which it definitely seems likely to be), would this impact my gas mileage? Maybe I've been driving more but it seemed like my mileage got a bit worse....not a huge amount though, and it could just be me or the cold weather.

so while your at it anything need replacing? i noticed my 93 sc2 was idling at 2000 under 20 we had a problem with the idle air control solenoid on a blazer it was stuck and the idle was atleast at 3000 rpms with no power i could imagine theres reverse/intermittent affects i strongly recomend a chiltons or haynes manuel they are pretty good my car has a code check key and all the codes in the book the saturns are very good at not letting you know theres a missfire all i heard was a scraping sound in mine grab yourself a pair of spark plug wires i went to duralast they have lifetime warranty at autozone i had a pair that leaked spark but i think it was manufactures defect (keep your box) i went to bosch platinum 4s they have had no problems i DO NOT RECOMEND singles ive had misfires in other vehicles because of them once basic maintainance is done get and problem not fixed go get your fuel pressure tested and a injector flow test

I'm starting to see symptoms pointing to an intermittent (fairly large) air leak. Look into the throttle plate/plates, loose components, ect.

Okay, I got it looked at/fixed...I forgot what the part was...I think it started with a T. But the mechanic said it was really dirty and the cause of this was bad/cheap fuel...and recommended I start using premium even though manufacturer recommended regular....so I don't know. Does that even make sense? He also recommended I get the pc valve or something like that changed/cleaned or something every year or two.

Does this sound like it was my problem? And again, would this effect my car's fuel economy?

look at the receipt, should say what part they replaced.

:screwy: Hmm, Tire?

in some ways i can imagine cheap fuel can do that look into maintance and keep those parts clean usually its blowby oil and egr carbon that get things sticky and nasty i saw a throttle body at the junk yard the whole thing was black and had thick layers of carbon on it i only use premium gas since i got my car i chemtooled the throttle body and ever since its been clean as a whistle

I agree that it could be a fuel flow issue, but even if it is a fuel flow issue, that doesn't nail it to a fuel pump.

I know my posts on these types of questions are rubber-stampish. Here's the reality.

We have a poster that is not very car savy. He could be missing very important info. We have very little data to work with. Any advice I offer, as a mechanic, will most likely be a costly experiment.


It sounds like you're talk about me. I dunno if you're directing that towards me or not. but I'd just like to make a comment.

Anything I recommend is exactly just that: a recommendation. You can listen and believe what I say, or you can completely ignore it. What I recommend is to keep an open mind to the ideas put forward. There's no way to diagnose a vehicle over the internet from symptoms described with words. I try to reason my recommendations and give symptoms that I've experienced when I had a similar problem to make things more clear and help rule out issues. I always tell people to check out their local mechanic and raise the question of the suggested issues they saw on this forum. What's the point of posting "we can't help you", if you won't offer a POSSIBLE cause. I couldn't care less if you were completely off because this is a forum and I don't even know you.

PCV's do help a tiny bit with fuel economy. I DONT recommend running premium in a car that old and that runs on regular. It has NO EFFECT as long as you're not getting detonation at the current octane levels in regular. Try it out yourself. I think you'll realize you're wasting money on premium, because they're just for Dodge Vipers, and Ferrari Enzos and the like.

you completely misread my post. It was not directed at anyone that offers advice. I was explaining why I'm leary to offer advice based off of very minimal data, and why no one can offer good advice.

I can offer all sorts of procedures to help diagnose the problem, but if the procedures can't be followed, either due to a lack of tools or understanding, doesn't really matter. Without proper diagnosis, its a guess. Guesses are expensive.

Thats it.

Whatever guys stop arguing. I wouldn't have come on here if I didn't want help, and you all helped a lot because at least I could narrow the problem down to a fuel flow issue. Yeah, I think the throttle body or whatever was really dirty. Anyways, so far the car is running good, still not sure if I should use fuel more expensive than regular the next time I gas up...I thought it wouldn't make sense either, but that's what the mechanic recommended? Well whatever...thanks a lot everyone who offered advice. It saved me money!

still not sure if I should use fuel more expensive than regular the next time I gas up...

You don't need to buy high octane fuel (premium), you just need to make sure you buy fuel from reputable stations.

even if the light went off the computer should store the codes until the computer is reset

I have a 95 saturn sl 2 with 250K's and you can pull the codes yourself, it's not hard. If you have a friend that is at all handy, it's easier to do it with 2 people. Just go and buy the Haynes manual for under $20. It tells you how to pull codes and it gives you the code number and problem. I have had to do it myself.