Reliability

Simply to continue the issue of Honda reliability. Here's a few quotes from the "Force A Recall" thread where all this got started.

I guess I can say that I started this with this quote

Honestly, I'm not impressed with my Malibu but I'm also a Honda guy. It's hard to go from the reliability, and excellence of Honda's time tested reputation to the Malibu...

The post is much longer but that's the heart of this thread. Later on HyperFox replied (not only to my quote but also SPRaYeD9) with

Yes. Malibus break down. So do hondas, toyotas and dodges. It is a man-made machine and there is only one guaruntee with something made by man. Sooner or later, it will break down.


Which Sparked this comment from shadow5599

No kidding, it gets so tiresome hearing how Hondas never break, like they're made by God or something. When I was recently looking for cheap 2nd car mainly for my kids I checked out some Hondas. There's no way in hell I was going to pay the over inflated and ridiculous prices some were asking for a beat up old Honda. And one of those had a leaking head gasket! I just looked at the guy like he was nuts, and then bought a Ford/Mazda for half the price.

To which I heartily replied with this

If you've heard it so much then maybe there is some truth to it.

Just because you found a couple of ricers who know that if they keep the price on their civic more than it's actual value to the normal person that some 16 year old kid who just watched the Fast and the Furious and has bottemless pockets will buy the thing just because it's a Honda Civic.

Yeah I'll agree that there are several people who will (and do) attempt to overprice Hondas that haven't been well taken care of. I'll challenge you though to go to the Honda threads (and not just the Civics but any Honda) and ask how dependable their cars are. Yeah Honda's have their problems just like any other car, the difference is that usually there aren't nearly as many of them.


And lastly shadow5599 replied

I didnt really want to start a rice vs north american argument. The prices I found to be over the top while looking were across the board, not kids selling off their dead race cars. This was private and dealer sales, Accords mostly.
I drove a few and quickly decided it wasnt worth it so bought another GM, of which I've had fantastic luck with. I'm not really loyal to any brand, I simply look for current needs and good value.

I've been driving for 30 years and have purchased a few cars, none of them imports and sure, if you like I'm willing to list my cost of ownership on any one of em as a comparison. Let me know where to post the info. From what I can recall here's the list of my vehicles in order of ownership which began in 1975. I didnt replace any motors, head or intake gaskets, axles, rear ends on any of em. 2 transmissions were replaced on 2 vehicles which was directly related to abuse (another story).
74 Comet
76 Cordoba
67 Cougar
74 Nova
71 Duster
85 Tempo
81 Century
82 GMC Beauville van
83 Malibu
03 Malibu
05 Malibu
96 Escort LX
96 Escort LX (#2)




Now that everyone is caught up. First off shadow, yeah the mods for this forum are more than capable of knowing when a thread should be closed, but they may not read every post or every thread. Sometimes it takes a little extra help from those dedicated to the forums to help bring the attention of the mods to a problem. They're busy people and most everyone whose spent any real ammount of time in these forums will appriciate what they do for everyone else, and try to make their job easier. So for the record I was simply reinforcing bcopelands vote to kill the thread. It had reached a point where it was no longer serving the original purpose.


Now on to the reliability thing. Ok so you found a couple of smart owners and dealers who also know that if they wait that they'll find some kid willing to spend the extra dollar to get what they want now whether or not it's in top notch condition. The Accord is the next most popular "ricer" model from Honda followed closely by the Prelude. If I were you I would do a little more looking for cars that weren't so abused or maybe understand what makes a Honda a Honda. You never really said what you didn't like about the Accords (and whatever else models) you tried. If you weren't impressed with the power of the 1.6L - 2.2L 4 cylinder engines then I guess you really need to stick with some American Muscle. Most Honda engines were never intended to be a powerfull beat all alternative to V8's. They're made for fuel efficency and reliablility. Tons of Honda owners will tell you how great the gas mileage is on their 12+ yr old Civics and Accords, 93 Civic LX was getting 38 mpg in the city and 40+ on the highway and my car was a piece. But it got me from point A to B, and I didn't have to worry about whether or not it was going to start in the morning.

Also I never said that other manufacturers didn't have a reputation of reliability. I simply stated that if you've heard so much about Honda's reliablilty that there must be something too it. I will agree that Chevy and Ford have both got strong reputations for reliable, user friendly cars.

So untill you've owned a Honda, and seen first hand just how much of a Godsend they can be, don't knock them just because they're a Honda. You might find that you like them as much as I do.

Oh and lastly Honda doesn't automatically equal rice. Rice is that 16 yr old kid with bottomless pockets who thinks that bolting on an intake, exhaust, and body kit with some neons under their Civic makes him a badass streetracer. That's rice.

I dont want to sound like I hate Hondas, I dont. I dont hate any vehicle really, I'm a car lover and most have their good and bad points.

What got me most from the Honda dealer I went to when I was forced to buy a new car this time last year was the arrogance. My wife and I had made a point of seeking out an import this time. We had driven the Sonata and loved it but slightly beyond what we wanted to spend, and it was brand new. We tried Subaru, Toyota and Honda all the time resisting the urge to visit our usual dealer, the GM guys. The Honda sale rep was snooty right from the start, putting down the Sonata and saying how they copy Honda but can never match them. Maybe true but keep that to yourself.
The Subaru guy was almost as bad, and I really didnt like those cars at all.

Se we picked out a few used Accords on the Honda lot within our price range. Which happened to be mostly 3-5 years old and between 60,000 and 100,000 kms. Very pricey I was thinking! The test drives were not impressive and I just could not see how anyone can justify that kind of pricing. That sales guy followed up by calling my home a few days later, after we had decided against Honda and asked if we'd found a car yet. I said we had almost decided on one. He then says, I do hope it's a Honda or an Acura (in his usual snooty tone). I simply said...NO its not and said goodbye. After an overnight test drive, we bought the 05 Malibu that week.

There was absolutely NO comparison to that 4 year old Accord and the 05 Malibu we ended up with. I could not or will not spend that kind of money on a car that old, with with less features. To me it's all about value and GM has always provided that to me. Hondas are fine but over priced. And by the way, I dont buy "new". GM is great because of it's depreciation I get an almost new car, a 1 year old car for a great price! After that, I keep them several years so there's minimal depreciation loss.

My last GM was the 03 Malibu which we bought in 04 for $13,000. Still under warranty and very few Kms. It was a very good car but my wife had a mishap early in 06 and it was written off. The car took the brunt of it and protected the passengers very well, nobody was hurt. We owned the car for 2 years and the insurance payout was $12,500. It cost us $500 to drive for 2 years. All the other cars I listed were also extremely low cost to own. I place that high on my list of needs.

The 05 Malibu we bought in March 06 to replace the 03 was chosen again for it's value. 16,000Kms (10,000 miles) and a price of $16k bought us one of the top 6 safest cars in it's class. The Malibu with the full airbag package was the only North American car on the top 10 list for safety ratings. The others were the usual Subaru, Audi, etc. GM has been recognised as a leader in fuel efficiency and my Malibu has 200 hp, is great fun to drive, is solid, quiet and gets 30mpg in the city and almost 45 on the highway. That beats alot of 4 cylinder econo boxes! Those will be Canadian gallons of course. That list of attributes are hard to beat at any price.

When I considered that car with it's very impressive price, list of features, safety rating and how it felt to drive as compared to what that money wouldve bought in a Honda, the choice was more than obvious.

I dont knock most any vehicle, or try not to but I also dont like some people's attitude that because GM cars have been good to me, and I buy them that I'm not too bright. I on the contrary defy anyone to beat my track record for cost of ownership over a period of a few years. You had the example of my 03 Malibu. Here's another....

I've owned a GM van for 10 years, it has almost 300,000 kms on it, never had any major work, has always been reliable and starts even after sitting on my driveway for months in the winter ( I rarely use it anymore). It cost me $2800 10 years ago and I've put 150,000 Kms on it. Done the brakes, the rad, a U joint and a few other basic things that maybe total $1,000 over the 10 years. Never touched the engine or tranny. I'm sure it's worth at least $500 now so you can see how cheap it has been to own.

The argument that I might settle for unreliable does not wash just because I dont buy Hondas. I've never had an unreliable vehicle, and you have seen the list. You want reliability? You cannot beat a Dodge 225 slant six, or a GM 350/327/305, or a Ford 289. I've owned alot of those engines and have never had one break on me, never done more on any of my engines beyond maintenance. No gaskets, no heads, nothing.

I cant see how a Honda would be Godsend to me. I live where the temps range from -40 to +40 C. Thats a huge strain on any vehicle and in the mornings when it's -40, I see many cars on the road running just fine, not just Hondas. I've never had one of mine let me down when needed. Thats 30 years of driving...and dare I say...never owned a Honda!

I know people with Hondas and yes they love em, and they are good cars but they have to fix em like every other car. Rads, head gaskets, struts, brakes....it's all the same stuff that breaks. Alot of it to me doesnt seem any different than what I've done to my vehicles, the parts just cost more.

I recall seeing a Honda for the 1st time, the original civic, whatever year it was (78ish?). If you dont think Honda has ever made crap, then you havent seen those things. They were awful and rusted away in a few short years. People laughed at them, they were junk. I never see one of those early models on the road now. Yes, Honda has come a long ways but they along with all manufacturers have put out crap.

I like North American cars for the way they feel. I'm not big on excessive power, thats not my reason for buying them. My reasons have been cost, safety, and reliability.....simple as that. And my North American cars over the years have proven time and time again they are cheap to own and are reliable. So why would I change to something which costs me more money? I dont think that 30 years of many different high value and reliable cars is simply a fluke.

Vehicle choices are a personal preference. I never put anyone down for whatever they happen to buy or drive. I always do my research, I am open to all possibilities but as you can see, Honda has nothing to offer me that will improve my car driving and buying experience, except to drain me of more money than I have been spending.

A good friend of mine bought an '07 Toyota Camry (I know, it's not a Honda) XLE V-6 last summer for $30K, and I have to say I'm totally unimpressed. I'd much rather have an '07 Malibu LTZ or Impala LTZ, and would save major $. Another big + is GMs new warranty.

The dash in the Camry, to use one quick example, was a mess of misaligned parts. And there are plenty of other examples, but I'll be late for work.

With Toyota, and likely Honda and Nissan, it's simply a case of the crowd following the blind. Toyotas DO have major reliability issues these days, unlike its storied past, and aren't worth the price premium. Resales values are so high due to popularity.

It's a shame that you got such a crappy dealer. I wouldn't personnally attack any other vehicle that's on the market when trying to sell anything to anyone (much less a Honda). I could understand a side to side comparisson but not a personal attack like what you were saying with the Sonata. I can understand your not wanting to pay more for a vehicle that doesn't have equal or greater ammount of features as some of the other vehilces on the road. Some people like the knowledge that their vehicle doesn't loose as much value on the market over time as some others. I love the fact of knowing that if I decided to sell my Civic right now, that I would probably get double what I've got into it, and it wouldn't be difficult to do.


I'll take it that you do all your routine maintenance on time and you do it right. You don't buy crappy parts or just whatever is the cheapest. I would consider you a great foundation to the reliability of cars other than Hondas because you do try to take care of your cars and that's a big factor in the reliability thing. Like I said in the Recall thread, my Malibu was severly abused. No regular oil changes, no regular tune ups, they didn't even take care of the brakes on the car. I think the nicest thing about it when we got it (other than the $300 price tag) was how clean the interior was. When we got our Malibu, the engine wasn't firing on the #3 cylinder (a repeat problem with the last owner). It cost me $80 to replace the coil cover and spark plugs and now I'm getting ready to replace the catalytic converter (which is plugged due to the ammount of fuel dumped into it) to the tune of $250 dollars. I may have to replace some of the suspension bushings and I've replaced the Air filter on the car. The blue book value on the car is in the upper $3000 range, so as long as I don't get near that, it will have been a good investment. But I won't be able to make a solid claim as to it's reliability untill everything is fixed and the car is brought back to good running condition. I think what's really killing the buzz on this car for me is the cost of repair for some of the things we're having to do. The Malibu is the first car that I've worked on that doesn't have spark plugs, rather it uses one solid piece of plastic to transfer spark to all 4 cylinders. The #3 cylinder wasn't firing because there was a break in the line going to that spark plug. So rather than replacing a single wire (around $5) or even replacing all the wires (about $30) I'm forced with a $60 coil cover, and the boot's that connect the cover to the plugs weren't included (another $10). It basically needed a tune up, but for the ammount that I've spent so far I could have done a tune up on my Civic to include wires, plugs, distributor cap and an air filter (or any other 4 cylinder with plug wires). I'm also finding that tires are double what I would spend on my Civic for the same tire brand and model. All that combined at once is really the killer for me at the moment but I'm going to hang on to this car for awhile and by the time I'm ready to get rid of it I may have changed my mind on how good of a car it is or isn't but right now, the cost of repairs do to the engineering designs. I would hate to have to replace my oil pan. Take a look at the list of things required to change the oil pan on a 98 Malibu, it's a little excessive.

I'm glad that you're at least willing to (civilly) talk about what you didn't like and why you belive what you do. It's intersting to here someone elses view that isn't "I would never drive some crappy rice burner like a Honda." When you tested the Accords, you said they were only a few years old (like an 02 or 03), what price range were you looking at on those Accords, and have you looked as something a little older like the 98-99 Accord EX or Accord LX and what specific features were you looking for, just overall saftey ratings and saftey features or is there anything specific you're looking for. I can't think of too many features that would be left out on a fully loaded Accord LX in comparisson to most other vehicles (around the same time frame). Maybe power seats. I can't think of any Honda that has power seats. I'm really interested in hearing your thoughts.

When it comes to saftey, I can attest to how well Civics hold up in crashes. I rolled my car in North Dakota, after loosing control on a patch of ice in a curve. I rolled my car at least 3 times if not 4 or 5 and was still able to drive the car home. I couldn't belive that the engine didn't seize. I walked away without injury.

wpbharry, I can't say that I blame you when it comes to the look and design of the new Camrys and their recent problems. I need to get off here but I appriciate the civil down to earth responses rather than a heated flamming.

We're all car lovers here, which is why we're here. And like women, there's something nice about any car if you look for it :naughty:

Yes I do maintain my vehicles regularly but not as good as some I'm sure so my vehicles have had some abuse and/or neglect. I drive them easy too which probably makes the biggest difference. The Comet I owned was when I was 16 and it eventually needed a tranny. It had a 302 and when you give a 16 year old male a car that goes like that, well...need I say more? Since then I have had absolutely no transmission problems in any of my vehicles but I dont do much street racing either! Any vehicle can go downhill rapidly if you drive it hard and dont maintain it. But I must admit it has been fun to blow away some kid in a buzzy little import who's being an annoyance at a light now n then :evillol:

The Honda dealer here is arrogant because they can be I suppose. They sell alot of cars based on Honda's well deserved reputation but I still dont think that's a good excuse for the one salesman being an a-hole.

As anyone well knows, car shopping can be tough. Everyone has certain needs and wants. After my wife was involved in what could have been a worse accident (hit by a drunk driver with a suspended license) I couldnt help but put safety at the top of my list. Along with that was a current model with warranty. I'm not overly picky on loads of options and the basic stuff does me fine but my Malibu does have most everything anyway. We wanted to keep the purchase price around $15k.

I didnt consider the older Accords, of which they were asking more than what I paid for the Malibu, because there was either no warranty, or not much left. The feel of the car wasnt any better, they didnt have the safety features. As far as other options, that was comparable. I didnt consider going any older. I liked the new generation Malibus, which I found to be MUCH improved over the last generation but couldnt find any with the full airbag option, which is a $1200 option. So I was kinda stuck awhile and came close to going for a 05 Altima with a 4 cyl, no side airbags, no ABS and 40,000 kms for $17k. The salesguy at the GM dealer went the extra mile and located a Malibu with that airbag option I wanted, with very low Kms, and gave me a price that couldnt be beat. Now thats service!

Nobody can argue that Honda has high resale value and that can be very important if a person changes vehicles often, but I dont. I tend to keep a car for many years and when you spread out the depreciation and initial cost of any vehicle over that kind of time, the total cost of ownership is about the same. In many cases the higher costing imports, such as a Honda can cost more because of the initial cost, the more possible interest paid on a loan, higher repair costs, etc.

I had a friend tell me I'm nuts to buy North American crap, it depreciates too fast he said. His basis for this was an Infiniti suv, which he bought new for about $45k. After 4 years he says he can sell it for $30k, a very low depreciation rate. Yes not bad I say but my Malibu cost me $16k, almost new. If I sell it after 4 years I'd expect to get about $8k. So who's cost of ownership is higher? :banghead: Thats not even figuring in loan costs, fuel, etc. Of course if you NEED an suv, then that's what you buy. I dont and I have better uses for several grand than throwing it away on a trendy vehicle for the sake of status.

If I had a larger budget, I'd be driving a Nissan Altima right now. I did love driving those when I was looking! Maybe my next car :)