Another Engine Debate

I'm just about 15 years old and I'm thinking that when I get a car, I will want an Intrigue, I've read reviews and know much about it. But when it comes to the engines, I know that the 3800 is old, reliable, and much loved. But then in '99 the "Shortstar" took over and is more powerful, ect. ect. But has the Shortstar proved to be as reliable as the 3800.

I also understand that the shortstar has less aftermarket parts for it and is hard to work with. And is it true that when the shortstar has a problem, it can cost a lot because the engine was never heavily used? And I know the 3800 breaking isn't a big deal when it breaks because it has been widely used.

Are my assumptions correct?

And could I get a nice summary comparison of the two engines, pros cons, acceleration, weight, ect. on the two engines (somewhat long if you want, just not a book)

As far as reliability, the 3.5 is every bit as reliable as the 3800, if not moreso, because if you have a 3800, your manifold gaskets will fail at some point, not so much an if, but a when. You can fix it early as preventive maintenance for a couple hundred bucks though, and if you get the right parts, and get the dex-cool out of there, you wont have a problem.

The 3.5 is more powerful than the 3800, especially in the Intrigue, not sure why but the hp/torque rating for the 3800 in the Intrigue is 195/225 compared to the 215/230 of the 3.5....that being said they make their power at much different rpm ranges. The 3800 makes it low down, with a nice flat torque curve throughout the lower rpms, then it peters out pretty quick and is pretty much gasping for breath at the 5900 point....the 3.5 can feel almost laggy at low rpms and when you floor will initially unimpress you until it gets to the 3500-4000 rpm range where it comes alive and doesnt really ever quit even when it shifts....in fact if you look at dyno charts, although the torque is going down, the horsepower has ever dropped off when it shifts, it just plateaus.

As far as aftermarket is concerned, the 3.5 is extremely limited. The only thing you can do are a few do it yourself things like a fenderwell intake, and then open up the exhaust a little bit by removing the u-bend behind the cat, and getting a high flow cat.

The 3.8 on the other hand has a very large aftermarket, you can even swap over the top end from a supercharged 3800 and make it quite fast...but the transmission is already a weak point, so if you plan on modding it extensivey, plan on beefing up the transmission as well.

The 3.5 is also a bit lighter, not sure by how much, but its an all aluminum engine and the 3800 is cast iron.

Like you said 3800s are a dime a dozen, so even getting a whole new engine isnt a big deal, or tearing into one and repairing it isnt as much of a big deal...but the 3.5 is a complicated engine to tear into, requiring specialty tools to even tear into it very far.

So does that mean that the 3800 has better acceleration and power from say, 0-30 or 45 mph, but when you get to highway passing speeds the shortstar blows it away?

I would probably agree with that statement. "off the line" the 3800 is going to pick up speed initially faster, because it makes its power at lower rpms. But once the 3.5 hits its powerband it would start to catch up as the 3800 would be running out of steam.

This might illustrate it better:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/rjolly87/powercurve.gif
the LX5 (3.5 V6) is the bold line. The 3800 L36 is the thinner graph.

You can see that at around 4000 rpms the 3.5 starts to overtake the 3800. You can also see that the torque curve on the 3800 is pretty flat, and the 3.5 has one that is much more jumpy, which you can feel while driving it. With the 3800 you feel like the power is there from the moment you get into it, and then you can feel it lose power toward the upper rpms. The 3.5 is somewhat the opposite.

If youre serious about modding, I would say go for the 3800. If you just want to have a fun car and lightly mod it, go for either one.

There is plenty you can do to make either car more fun to drive. You can do an intake and exhaust work, there are also shift kits available for the 4t65-E transmission to firm up those shifts and get it moving faster. There are also suspension upgrades to make the car handle better.

Neither one should disappoint you too much, if you have the chance, drive both. Or at least drive a car with the 3800 Series II in it. As they are all pretty much the same. Power ratings for the 3800 in the Intrigue are 195/225, for all other W-bodies its 200/230 and for the H-bodies its 205/230. Mostly because of intake and exhaust differences in those cars.

Will parts to fix the shortstar be harder to find in the even that something goes wrong? Or would I be able to find parts easily, even though it was used for only a short, short period?

Tx for all the help btw.

Personally ive never had anything go wrong, so I dont know how readily available parts are.

Walking into a parts store and asking for certain things might have you leaving empty handed, but you should be able to have anything ordered you need. There is plenty of support from online places like gmpartsdirect and rockauto as well...but all those things take time. I say check out the website of your favorite auto parts place, and do some searching around for various things and see if they typically stock them or not.

For the most part its a really reliable engine, so things dont break a lot. Ive seen a few water pumps fail, and most dont have trouble with alternators failing with the 3.5....but they do have the flickering headlights and dash lights under certain conditions. Theres a TSB about the stock alternator on the 3.5...its defective, but does work properly at the same time. A fixed OEM one is in the neighborhood of 200 bucks, and a Bosch one thats supposed to be all special is about 300-400....its also a bit of a pain to remove from what I hear.

There arent really any common engine problems im aware of with the 3.5 at all, so you should be pretty safe.

One thing you havent brought up is gas mileage. They both get excellent gas mileage for a car of this size, the power they make, and the displacement they have. I get on average of 22-23 with a city/highway mix and a heavy foot. The best ive ever seen is 29 and the worst ive ever seen is 19, and i check it quite often. I cant remember if the 29 was with the stock airbox or the intake..so it may have the ability to get even better than that now. The 3800 should get about the same, but both will depend on which gear ratio you end up with. The most common is a 3.05, which I have, but there was also a 3.29 available. You can tell which one a car has by looking at the RPO codes on the inside of the trunk lid. FR9 is the 3.29 ratio and F83 is the 3.05. This will also have an affect on the performance of the car.

Like I said earlier when the time comes, test drive both if you can, although you will probably find more with the 3.5 because it was used in the Intrigue longer. Really both are solid engines that should provide you with good power and surprise a lot of people. But the transmissions are more of a weak point in these cars than the engine ever could be.

Thanks so much. And I hope that I won't forget about this place and become a member who came to just ask one question and then desert the place.

Yeah hang around, learn about the differnent mods you can do. Its fun.

My personal favorite was actually the upgraded brakes and the handling kit.

You can actually take the 12 inch rotors a step further and upgrade to either late model Camaro/Firebird calipers or even Corvette calipers. But I doubt they will fit with stock wheels...its possible, but my stock calipers just barely fit.

The Camaro/Firebird and Corvette calipes are better because they are a twin-piston design compared to your stock single piston, and they also have close to twice the amount of pad surface area.

The brakes have been my most noticeable mod, these cars weigh in about 3500 pounds if not more, thats a lot of car to stop with 11 inch stock rotors.

The intake also greatly improves the sound of the car, and even the ladies notice it when you get into the gas a little bit and it sounds all beasty:) Ive had them start making little engine noises and stuff and ask why it sounds so mean.

I would get an Intrigue with the 3.5L LX5. The 3800 is a push-rod 2-valve head compared to the 4-valve DOHC LX5. The chart does not consider time in the equation = the LX5 is the quicker engine and with power being similiar the 3.5L walks all over the 3800 NA. Only with the supercharger or turbo does the 3.8L wake up and reveal its' potential.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_V6_engine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Premium_V_engine#LX5

Drive the 3.5L and the 3.8L Intrigue. Put the car into second manually and hold the gas down. The 3.5L will win every time over the 3.8L NA.

Drive the 3.5L and the 3.8L Intrigue. Put the car into second manually and hold the gas down. The 3.5L will win every time over the 3.8L NA.

Thats because of the high-end power of the 3.5, on the move the 3.5 is quicker every time, but thats once youre moving and then downshifting into high rpms.

From a standstill the 3800 will jump much harder off the line than the 3.5 and probably outrun it until the 3.5 catches up, then yeah from that point its probably gonna be all Shortstar, but im not just talking about racing. Im talking about the overall driving experience, if you want to have to pull out in traffic and rev up to 4-5000 rpms every time to get the car moving then go right ahead...I have to do it alot, but Id much rather be able to drive like a sane person....just chugging around town the 3.8 will provide a much better feel, because it wont feel like its struggling to pull the car sometimes.

The 3.8 still has the aftermarket advantage over the 3.5....if your wallet would allow, you could fairly easily put an Intrigue with the 3.8 into the 11s if not lower...using parts that are available from vendors, not custom stuff....try that with the 3.5...you would be lucky if you could do much with the 3.5, even if it is custom, because the stock PCM will only take you so far, and no one makes one for the 3.5...plus every single thing would have to be custom made for you, can you imagine the cost of 4 completely custom ground camshafts? Id rather not think about it.

sort of like the old 440 vs Hemi debate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8yiuvuqJw0

good to see the old "FireBall" Buick V6 (3800) still doing its' rounds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1G6wtnmdZhE

If I ever had a chance at a GNX, I'd just have to toss the Intrigue idea away, haha. But anyways, on the 3.5, when you accelerate away from an idle, at what speed does the engine usually get to the RPM's that it really starts to perform. (for lack of a better word that I can think of)

If I ever had a chance at a GNX, I'd just have to toss the Intrigue idea away, haha. But anyways, on the 3.5, when you accelerate away from an idle, at what speed does the engine usually get to the RPM's that it really starts to perform. (for lack of a better word that I can think of)

hmmm never really noticed, i would say maybe 30-40? I shift out of first gear at about 55 and am hitting 60 usually just before 2nd gear kicks back in, if not sooner from the roll.

You said you were 15? Does your state allow you to get your learners permit at 15? You can here in Missouri. Maybe you could talk your dad into letting you do some test driving? Thats really the only way some of your questions can be answered best, is by getting behind the wheel.

As long as were talking about engines, if you want good reliability and some really good power, you might consider something with the supercharged 3.8 under the hood, and no, the fact its supercharged doesnt make it any less reliable, in fact theyre more reliable than the naturally aspirated 3800 as far as im concerned, plus the transmission attached to them is usually more reliable as well.

Since you like the Intrigue, check out something like the Buick Regal GS, similar styling and size. Not trying to deter you from buying an Intrigue, but doesnt hurt to broaden your options. If I wouldve had more time to shop around I probably wouldnt have bought my Intrigue, but I had just totaled my Bonneville and needed a car ASAP.....right now the car I would really like to have is a 2000-2005 Bonneville SSEi...but thats just me. Check out the boosted 3.8s though, I havent heard of a driver yet thats been disappointed by that engine.

If you really want a fast car (and love the 3800/3.8L), get the Olds Cutlass Ciera with the 3.8L and then add the supercharger. Stock the 1987-1990? Cutlass Ciera International with the 3.8L were quick and very linear off the line. The FE3 suspension is icing on the cake.

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2517546

If you can find one for <$1000 + with supercharger you may have a poor man's Olds GrandNational. This would also be a very good bracket racer set-up = very consistant performance. With the FE3 this car rides very low to the ground and tracks well = like a stock-car.

I have a 1966 Dodge Charger with a 440ci. I believe that the Cutlass Ciera International 3.8L with SuperCharger would be faster.

This is my Car. And my Dad has a 1988 Cutlass Ciera International FE3 rotting in his driveway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7b6UZJHwKo

I guess that would be the Vin 3, LG3 engine? I didnt know it could be easily supercharged, but it would be a fairly capable car, probably do to the weight of the car more than anything.

There are a lot of cars that are faster than an Intrigue, but theres nothing wrong with an Intrigue, its just that if speed is your thing, you might not be too happy unless youve got a thick wallet. Mine still manages to make a smile cross my face when I mash the loud pedal, but I know there are a lot of cars out there that are much faster.

As long as were talking about engines, if you want good reliability and some really good power, you might consider something with the supercharged 3.8 under the hood, and no, the fact its supercharged doesnt make it any less reliable, in fact theyre more reliable than the naturally aspirated 3800 as far as im concerned, plus the transmission attached to them is usually more reliable as well.



Good point and I agree. Nothing wrong with a Pontiac Grand Prix GTP or Buick Regal GS with the L67 SII 3800 or even an "H" body such as a Bonneville SSEI as an alternative of you plan on staying GM. :wink:

Easy to mod with significant hp and torque gains.

Wow, yes that is a very good idea with the Regal or such. I could get made fun of for getting a Buick by some friends, but with a 0-60 of 6.6 secs, it don't care what people say. An advantage of the Regal would be that it's not trying as hard to be sporty like Grand Prix do sometimes.

And about the permit. One of the worst thing about Oklahoma is that you have to be 15 1/2 to get a learners permit. Pretty dad gum stupid if you ask me.


-tx

Wow, yes that is a very good idea with the Regal or such. I could get made fun of for getting a Buick by some friends, but with a 0-60 of 6.6 secs, it don't care what people say. An advantage of the Regal would be that it's not trying as hard to be sporty like Grand Prix do sometimes.

-tx

My sons love driving my Regal GS. Good sleeper car and the cops will not notice you as much in a more sporty car looking like the Grand Prix. At your age your biggest issue will be the cost of insurance on the car.

I recommend the 3.8 engine. I bought my 1998 in 2001 when I was 18 years old. This car has been pretty good to me and fun to learn about cars. Grab yourself a Chilton repair manual and if you're relatively mechanically inclined you'll be all set. The way the 3.8 is laid out if in my opinion "mechanically friendly." This would be a good car for you to learn on, since it'll be your first, and you'll appreciate your experience. I have been the primary mechanic for the past 6 years on my car and I haven't had a problem that I started that was impossible.

With the 3.8 I have done, and am sure you could do the same. Oil changes, Transmission fluid change, coolant flush, brakes, spark plugs, alternator, Oxygen sensor, fuel pressure regulator, installing a new stereo, HVAC resistor, serpentine belt.

The 3.8 is nicely laid out, good power, smooth ride and probably a steal at the price you're going to get one for these days. A good car for mods due to the Pontiac Grand Prix also having the 3.8. I am assuming you can get a decent Intrigue w/ a 3.8 for around $2,000.

The one cool thing that I like about the Intrigue is the amber daytime running lights at dawn or dusk w/o the headlights on. The look I like is seeing this car coming at you from a distance with too small eyes looking at you with the way the whole front end is designed. The next best one that I like is the Cadillac CTS.

Private message me if you want anything else.

Have Fun!

Going back to the reliability standpoint, there is one common problem with the 3.5. That is oil consumption. Most of them will consume at least one quart of oil between oil changes, possibly more depending on the type of oil and engine condition. Some people have attributed this carbon buildup around the piston rings - as with the northstar. However, if burning oil is actually smelled when the car is idleing, it's probably the valve cover gaskets needing replaced (most likely the back one).

Other than that, it is a tremendous engine, even though the power doesn't really come on until 4000 rpm. I forgot how powerful it actually is - replaced my filthy air filter last week and today I floored it from a stop to 65mph. Damn. It makes gorgeous sounds above 6000 rpm. Too bad the tranny can't spin beyond 6500 rpm, cause the motor certainly would go to 7000 rpm. But in no way can it match the low end of a 3800. That thing (I'm talking N/a , not s/c) can spin tires if you floor it at 20mph. THe s/c ones will spin them probably near 40.

Only problems with the Regal GS over an Intrigue are the low end interior (though the leather seats are more comfortable than the intrigues), the wallowy handling, and the lack of stability control as an option. I would say if you have a little bigger budget, go for an 04+ Grand Prix GTP (should be around $12K).

Only problems with the Regal GS over an Intrigue are the low end interior (though the leather seats are more comfortable than the intrigues), the wallowy handling, and the lack of stability control as an option. I would say if you have a little bigger budget, go for an 04+ Grand Prix GTP (should be around $12K)

The Intrigue and the Regal should handle about the same, they are built on the same chassis platform, and have the same components for the most part. The GMPP handling kit I have on my car that made a noticeable difference will fit a Regal too, in fact the strut tower brace is from a Regal to begin with.

You have to consider insurance as well, if youre paying for your own especially, and heck even if your parents are, because theres no sense in them having to pay out the butt for it. All the cars mentioned so far are fairly easy on insurance, the biggest factors arent necessarily the engine or the power it makes, because they look at displacement and thats about it. The biggest factors are the age of the car, cars older than 5 yrs are much better on insurance. They also look at whether or not it is a 2-door or a 4-door. So a Grand Prix coupe is more expensive to insure than a Sedan...ridiculous yes, but its how they roll.

All of the engines mentioned so far are good choices, just a matter of deciding what you want to ride around in. There are alot of sleeper cars especially, the Regal is one, Bonneville is a good one too, cant forget the Riviera and the Park Avenue Ultra...doesnt get much more sleeper than that.

Ill also agree with the comment that the 3.8 is much easier to work on, almost everything is pretty easy to take off. The 3.5 is another story.