Polygon's dumass of the day!

Alright, below is some comments taken from a guestbook of someone at Car Domian, I just thought I would share the stupidity.

Originally posted by juanito157
Dude I am a big SHO fan..Unfortunatly mine was stollen,it was a 91 with a blower and a 5 speed. I hate to tell you this man although you ride is otherwise the SHIAT!!! those rims are fucked up, they look like all four of your hub caps are missing :o(.... Otherwise A . And for all you sorry ass rice burning 4 Cyl bitches..CHECK OUT SHOSHOP.COM OR www.svt.ford.com/flash/index.html YOU PUNKS AINT GOT SHIT ON FORD WITHOUT LOADING THOSE PUNK ASS CARS WITH NOS !!!!

Then came my reply:

Originally posted by Polygon1989
Yeah, and Ford can't get shit out of SVT without supercharging, so it’s all the same, it is still forced induction. I'm not knocking Ford, but you are just making ignorant statements man. I'll admit the SHO is a fast car, too bad the engine is made by Yamaha. Ford can't compete with Chevy or Dodge without supercharging, give me a break, and yours was s/c besides you damn moron.

As for you player2399, shut up man, you're a dumbshit.

Then came his retort:

Originally posted by juanito157
Hey Dickhead !! If you were not the one making all those stupid comments about Fords than these comments were not directed at you, "MORON". Besides have you allready forgoton that your Lebaron is basically a Dodge and it's turbo charged!! The early model Dodge colt was also Turbocharged.Chevy's Fastest Truck ever "Cyclone & Typhoon" were also turbocharged and from what I read about,their ending production on their Camaro because despite how much they try to make their Camaro faster than Ford Stang, they couldnt compete in sales, everyone was still buying the stangs ...Aside form Speed, Ford (In my opinion) offers the best looking cars with a long line of serious performance cars....Harley F150/ Mustang Cobra/ Lightning/ Marauder/ and they are bringing back the GT-40 and it will probably spank a VETT...I love all cars including "Rice Burners" I'm a real car enthusiast !! and these comments were directed at people who are opinionated about Fords and if your not one of them than the comments weren't directed at you.....JERK !! SO MUCH FOR YOUR SUPERCHARGED THEORY ON FORDS...CHEVY AN DODGE ARE ON AND HAVE ALWAYS BEEN ON THE SAME WAGON.

I just posted this response:

[i]Originally posted by Polygon1989]
That nice and all, but I was never knocking forced induction, I happen to like forced induction, I was just pointing out the fact that I thought it was funny that you are making fun of people that use it and saying their car can't compete with Ford without it when your car had forced induction. That was my point. As for my comment about ford not being able to compete with Chevy and Dodge, I was talking about the Z06 vs. Viper vs. Cobra R. Honestly they Cobra R doesn't stand a chance, even with a s/c. The other two mop the floor with it. As for the lightning, the SRT-10 Ram will hand the SVT Lightning its ass all day long with NO forced induction, while the SVT Lightning does. The Viper still can kill the GT-40 with NO forced induction. Even the new Hemi will beat the Lightning, once again with NO forced induction. That was my point; Ford seems to need to supercharge their vehicles to keep up with Chevy and Dodge. Don't forget who make the ultimate motor, the Hemi, Ford even tried to copy it calling it the semi-hemi, and it sucked. They say that imitation is the most sincere form of flattery, well enough of my ranting. Take what you want from this. Also the Mustang won is sales from the V6 Stangs, not Cobras, not Saleens, and not SVTs. Just look at how many women are driving around town in V6 Stangs.

I am now waiting for his response.

hahaha, im not even going to comment on that one guys statement about the Camaro. He has a small portion of why its being cancelled right, but theres so many other reasons.


you tell them Polygon!

I would counter by saying, they stopped making the F bodies for one reason. They weren't making GM money, and GM isn't about making cars. GM is about making money... :(

Anyways, Ford had an engine that was far superior to the Hemi, called the Cammer. It was a SOHC Ford 427 sideoiler... they ran it in old superstock, in the Thunderbolt Fairlanes... Happened to blow the doors off of the Max Wedge Mopars...

Also, the SHO motors are made by Yamaha, but they aren't forced induction engines. Neither was the SVT Contour. The old SVT Cobra wasn't forced induction either, it just had a well designed engine, capable of hp figures the SBC or Mopar engines just can't do, with the exception of GMs LT5, which was designed by Lotus :rolleyes:

Also, weren't the K car engines made by mitsubishi? I'm not sure, but I heard they were...

I think you hit everything on the head there, good job

(aside from the last part, not sure what a k car is)

K cars are the random Dodge and Chrysler cars.

Like the Arries and the ... ummm shit i cant think of the names of the other cars... its 2:00AM.

But they're ugly, but are rally mobiles.


Remember that video we saw of that Random car that beat the shit out of the Supra at the Track? and we heard its Turbo? Thats a K car.

oh, well then, yes

And isnt the colt a k car then?

If so, yes, mitisibutchisheishusbuchi does make the engine

Yeah, the Colt was a mitsubishi through and through... I think the 2.2 liter chrysler engine was actually a chrysler engine...

RANT RANT RANT! Sorry, couldn't think of anything meaningful to say...

I wouldn't even pay any attention to that kid (and it is painfully obvious he is a kid). He obviously knows jack shit about cars, and more so about car companies. The only things he seems to be saying is reguritated bullshit from some other ford fanboy's rants.


And that car you saw run a 10 second quarter mile was a Dodge Aries, which came with a chrysler 2.2, or a mitsu 2.6.

Ok if the cammer is so superior to Hemi explaind this article I found at dragracing online. Here is the interesting part:

"Larry Gould has been racing Ford 427 cammers as long or longer than anyone in the history of drag racing. In 1974 he ran a best of 6.66 which tied Tommy Grove for the quickest elapsed times ever recorded for a Funny car using a 427 Ford cammer for power. Even though Gould eventually switched over to Hemi power in his Ford bodied floppers, he never gave up his Cammer parts or his love of the engine."

the kid needs to find out the power of VTEC what POWER? :rolleyes: anyways i likes the camaro SS

Originally posted by Cbass
I would counter by saying, they stopped making the F bodies for one reason. They weren't making GM money, and GM isn't about making cars. GM is about making money... :(

Yes, that is a very good point.


Anyways, Ford had an engine that was far superior to the Hemi, called the Cammer. It was a SOHC Ford 427 sideoiler... they ran it in old superstock, in the Thunderbolt Fairlanes... Happened to blow the doors off of the Max Wedge Mopars...

I have just a few things to say here. The engine you are talking about is very popular for being in the Shelby Cobra. Now, of course a Sheby Cobra will take down a Hemi Cuda because the Cobra is a roll cage with a body and a gas tank. They weigh next to nothing. Here are some things for you to think about; also I find Neutrino's post quite amusing.

1. What engine is used in NHRA Top Fuel drag racing? The only engine used in Top Fuel is the 426 Hemi bored out to 500. They are ALL Hemis. That says something right there.

2. In the early 70s Chrysler left NASCAR after the Hemi in winged cars was banned. They took a superior engine and paired it with a superior design. The result was Ford and Chevy bitching up a storm because they couldn't keep up and couldn't design anything better. To this day the Hemi is still banned from NASCAR.

3. Once again I must say that Ford tried to make their own Hemi and failed, this was during the time of the Cammer. If the cammer was so great, why would they try to copy the Hemi design?

The Cammer is a great engine, but is no way superior to the Hemi, that is pretty obvious when a big advocate of the Cammer switches to a Hemi, I mean why would he trade for something worse?


Also, the SHO motors are made by Yamaha, but they aren't forced induction engines. Neither was the SVT Contour. The old SVT Cobra wasn't forced induction either, it just had a well designed engine, capable of hp figures the SBC or Mopar engines just can't do, with the exception of GMs LT5, which was designed by Lotus :rolleyes:


Yes I understand that the Yamaha in the SHO was an n/a engine. My point was that this guy I'm arguing with, his was supercharged and yet he is making fun of people that use forced induction, which was my point. The SVT Contour was not s/c, yes, I know that. I didn't say they all are. But all the Mustangs that are SVT have a s/c, all the Lightnings had supers as well. And they have to just to keep up with the F-body. They still don't stand a chance against the Vette or the Viper, and neither has forced induction. That was my point here.


Also, weren't the K car engines made by mitsubishi? I'm not sure, but I heard they were...

Now when you say K-car, there were many different ones. I assume you mean the K bodied cars like the Aries. Yes these could be bought with a 2.6L Mitsubishi engine, though it was never a popular choice. Most people went with the 2.2L or the 2.5L common block engine which was ALL Chrysler, unless you got one equipped with the Turbo III option, they were all Chrysler with the exception of a Lotus head.

That K-Car that ate the Supra was using the 2.2L engine, the same one I had in my car. You couldn't get that kind of power out of the 2.6L without wasting a lot of money, and I mean A LOT.

ehhh Sorry Polygon i gotta disagree with ya...

"I have just a few things to say here. The engine you are talking about is very popular for being in the Shelby Cobra."

The Cobra never saw the 427 Cammer, The Cammer was discontinued in 1965.

Here's a short history on the 427 Cammer from Musclecarclub.com

"Without a doubt the most powerful engine ever made, the Ford 427 Cammer was developed with the intention of taking on Chrysler's Hemis. Ford gave the 427 block new heads with hemispherical combustion chambers. To cap that, they fitted overhead camshafts -- one per cylinder bank -- which gave the engine its name and allowed it to rev to an unheard of 7,500 rpm. With the regular single four barrel carb, the "cammer" put out 616 bhp, but with dual four-barrels, it produced a massive 657 bhp. With this kind of power, the "cammer" 427 was totally unsuitable for street use. These engines were not sold to the general public, but about 50 examples were built, mostly for professional drag racers. Because of the low production volumes, NASCAR refused to accept the engine as a regular production option, and thus Ford couldn't use the engine to combat the Hemi's. This sealed this engine's fate and Ford discontinued it after 1965.

Ratings: 1x4bbl: 616bhp @ 7500rpm. 2x4bbl: 657 bhp @ 7500rpm, 550 lb-ft."

You might be thinking of the 427 racing motors that were used in Fords NASCAR vehicles. Shelby then used them in the AC Cobras, which are a Basic OHV configuration. The AC Cobra went into production in 1965 and ended in 1968 of which only 316 were produced.

wow sooo this is a domestic debate. i feel sooo lost. i only understand a fraction of whats goin on. i guess this is how you guys feel when us import guys ramble about our brands as well:dogpile:

haha, domestic debates seem to be more civil. there's no name calling, no bullying, no stupid remarks. just some random guys talking about Cars.

of course we could be like the honda racing forum and randomly want to ban all those who oppose our views. :hehehe:


"I like the honda S2K, but it could use a tad more low end power."

"OH, so you think the S2k is slow? why dont you get your *insert american car of choice here* and leave, we dont need haters talking down on our cars! We need to ban him!"


:jump:

I've had three friends who owned SHO Taurus's. Those things ate trannies like they were jelly donuts. The SHO Mustangs with the turbo 2.3L four, though, those things were scary fast. But either way, this guy was obviously a dick. And whether or not it's currently the boutique auto transplant of choice, the 4.6L and 5.4L Ford OHC V-8's are really starting to bug me. I agree with you Polygon, Ford needs to invest in an engine development plan, instead of making weekly trips to the Vortech development shops. It would cost tem so much less money if they could design an intake plenum that was worth a damn from the factory.

redneck cracks me up. :D just think about the age of the average import tuner compared to the average domestic tuner. ill bet the import guys are younger

Alright, that makes sense then, it was a DOHC rather than a pushrod design. I really wish they would make a Hemi with DOHC; the 426Hemi would be up around those numbers maybe more if it were DOHC.

Oh, and the 528 Hemi produces close to 700HP right out of the crate. I know someone that was getting 710HP to the wheels with a 528 Hemi right out of the box; just imagine that as a DOHC. :D

same thing here. that's what i want to see a DOHC hemi.Can you imagine the power. I don't know why they insist in using pushrods - guess cost.

now my shop teacher. hes a pro drag racer. and he talks all about his racing. and he said how hard it was to tune a carburator. becusae you can get perfect results on the dyno but when you mount it on the car, and you have wind, and the pull of hte car accelerating, it could fuck up your tuning, or it would just be tuned differently. soo what he suggest was that if only they had fuel injection. i can get a perfect curve for every condition, every temp, and just hit it bullseye on the spot. his best run was like a 8.6 in his own car. the cars that he builts in his team, it runs into the high 7's. now heres food for though. imagine if they had a HEMI with DOHC 5 valves per head with FUEL INJECTION! that thing would be unstoppable!!

actually I think the new 345ci hemi that just came out is injected but is still pushrod.

Originally posted by R1-rider
I wouldn't even pay any attention to that kid (and it is painfully obvious he is a kid). He obviously knows jack shit about cars, and more so about car companies. The only things he seems to be saying is reguritated bullshit from some other ford fanboy's rants.


And that car you saw run a 10 second quarter mile was a Dodge Aries, which came with a chrysler 2.2, or a mitsu 2.6.

I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that you're an obnoxious idiot, and that a few of your posts rub people the wrong way :mad:

The 2.6 is an econobox engine, and has little performance potential. The 2.2 Turbo 2 is a very strong engine, and has a lot of potential in factory form...

Redneck knows his big blocks! They were never allowed to run it in Nascar because it wasn't widely available, and they decided it would be unfair to run a SOHC big block! Ford only supported the engine in Superstock drag racing, where it dominated. In fact, with GM pulling out of factory racing around the same time, it killed factory SS. The reason all the guys who were running Cammers switch to hemis and rat motors, was because they couldn't get parts for Cammers!

Also, the aero Chryslers were pulled not because of the Hemi, but because they sported aero packages specifically designed for Nascar, and not the street. Ford and Chevy managed to get away with running fast back production cars, because they claimed that was a styling cue, not an aerodynamic aid.

All in all, the hemi is not a special design, or a rare design. It has a hemispherical combustion chamber, as many high performance motors do. It did break ground in the 50s, when the first hemis were introduced. I think the first one was the 331 hemi, but I'm not sure...

Originally posted by Neutrino
actually I think the new 345ci hemi that just came out is injected but is still pushrod.

Yes, while the new 345ci Hemi is still a pushrod design it is fuel injected and has two spark plugs per cylinder. If they made a DOHC version, that would just be insane, keeping pushrod just keeps the price down while still having an insane amount of power.

I was looking some more on the Cammer and I now realize that it is what the Mopar crowd called the semi Hemi; notice it does have hemispherical heads. I now realize that it was also only SOHC.

The Hemi is unique and rare, unless it is a Chrysler produced engine or follows the Chrysler design exactly it is not a true Hemi. There is more to the Hemi than the hemispherical head though that is where it gets its name. The reason I think the Hemi is the superior engine is because if you were to make it SOHC in the 426 version it would tear a Cammer apart. Ford did not invent the SOHC or the Hemi design, Chrysler did invent the Hemi and that is what makes it so special. The Cammer is copied from the Hemi; there is nothing very special about it. I also hear that they weren't the most reliable motor which is why they were never put into production, while all the Hemi crate motors are pretty bulletproof; they are VERY strong reliable engines.

NASCAR could NOT ban the Superbird from racing because of the cars design because it was a production car; it met the numbers required be NASCAR to race. They officially stated that Hemis in winged cars were no longer allowed so Chrysler pulled from NASCAR, and do you thing that NASCAR would let them use a Hemi design right now? Hell no they wouldn't, because they would get nothing but flak from the Ford and Chevy teams again.

This has been a highly informative and entertaining thread

Well, we aim to please. :D

Kidrocket: redneck cracks me up.
CBass : Redneck knows his big blocks!



Y'all like me... y'all really like me!


and you seem to believe i know shit!... Yes my ploy has worked! haha... thanks for believin in some back water'd thinkin kid who's really from SoCal... Far from the TRUE south...



i try to at least have 1 funny thing or informative thing to say each post. but sometimes all i can say to some posts is... :huh: < i mainly do that in the Honda Racing Forum :)

Originally posted by Polygon


Yes, while the new 345ci Hemi is still a pushrod design it is fuel injected and has two spark plugs per cylinder. If they made a DOHC version, that would just be insane, keeping pushrod just keeps the price down while still having an insane amount of power.

Since when has Mopar ever cared about keeping price down? :p


The Hemi is unique and rare, unless it is a Chrysler produced engine or follows the Chrysler design exactly it is not a true Hemi. There is more to the Hemi than the hemispherical head though that is where it gets its name. The reason I think the Hemi is the superior engine is because if you were to make it SOHC in the 426 version it would tear a Cammer apart. Ford did not invent the SOHC or the Hemi design, Chrysler did invent the Hemi and that is what makes it so special.

Actually, the hemispherical combustion chamber head was first made in the 30s I think, by Mercedes Benz. The special thing about the hemi, was it had more displacement, and nobody else had done it in the states... Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the 426 Hemi a 426 max wedge with hemi heads?


The Cammer is copied from the Hemi; there is nothing very special about it. I also hear that they weren't the most reliable motor which is why they were never put into production, while all the Hemi crate motors are pretty bulletproof; they are VERY strong reliable engines.

The Cammer was not copied from the Hemi, the Cammer was a 427 side oiler production motor with SOHC heads.


NASCAR could NOT ban the Superbird from racing because of the cars design because it was a production car; it met the numbers required be NASCAR to race. They officially stated that Hemis in winged cars were no longer allowed so Chrysler pulled from NASCAR, and do you thing that NASCAR would let them use a Hemi design right now? Hell no they wouldn't, because they would get nothing but flak from the Ford and Chevy teams again.

They did homolgomate(spelling?) the aero cars, but the reason they were banned was the same reason they still run carbs and 4 speeds. To keep the tech level down, so the cars didn't become canam/indy cars on an oval.
I might be wrong on this one, but I think all modern nascar heads have hemispherical chambers.

Originally posted by Cbass

Since when has Mopar ever cared about keeping price down?


Hehe, while they aren't the most inexpensive cars on the market, they do cost a lot less then a lot of other cars you can buy out there such as Acura and Audi.


Actually, the hemispherical combustion chamber head was first made in the 30s I think, by Mercedes Benz. The special thing about the hemi, was it had more displacement, and nobody else had done it in the states... Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the 426 Hemi a 426 max wedge with hemi heads?

Do you have something I could read on that because as far as I know Chrysler invented the Hemi design, and no, the 426 is not a max wedge with Hemi heads. There is a lot more to a Hemi than the hemispherical heads, though that is mainly where it gets its name, but there is a lot more to it than that.


The Cammer was not copied from the Hemi, the Cammer was a 427 side oiler production motor with SOHC heads.


I should have worded that differently. It was not copied from the Hemi, but it did have hemispherical heads which is why a lot of people called it the semi Hemi. My other point is, why did the Cammer not last very long? I have been told that the motor was not very reliable, that is just what I have been told. If I am wrong please correct me.


They did homolgomate(spelling?) the aero cars, but the reason they were banned was the same reason they still run carbs and 4 speeds. To keep the tech level down, so the cars didn't become canam/indy cars on an oval. I might be wrong on this one, but I think all modern nascar heads have hemispherical chambers.

I will agree that, that was part of the reason, but I distinctly recall the Hemi having something to do with it as well. As for the use of them in NASCAR, none of the engines in NASCAR use hemispherical heads, they are all normal engines.

[b]originally posted by Polygon

Do you have something I could read on that because as far as I know Chrysler invented the Hemi design, and no, the 426 is not a max wedge with Hemi heads. There is a lot more to a Hemi than the hemispherical heads, though that is mainly where it gets its name, but there is a lot more to it than that.


An excerpt from an edmunds a

originally posted by Polygon

Do you have something I could read on that because as far as I know Chrysler invented the Hemi design, and no, the 426 is not a max wedge with Hemi heads. There is a lot more to a Hemi than the hemispherical heads, though that is mainly where it gets its name, but there is a lot more to it than that.


An excerpt from an edmunds article on the Duesenberg SJ from the early 30s.

http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/techcenter/articles/43842/article.html
One notable exception came in the form of the 1932 Duesenberg Model SJ. Besides boasting twin overhead camshafts, hemispherical combustion chambers and aluminum pistons, the Model SJ sported a centrifugal-type supercharger that brought horsepower to 320 from a 6.8-liter, straight-eight engine. The SJ Phaeton, with its convertible top down, was capable of speeds approaching 130 mph in showroom stock condition...in 1932!



My other point is, why did the Cammer not last very long? I have been told that the motor was not very reliable, that is just what I have been told. If I am wrong please correct me.


The reason they did not last very long, was as Redneck said, they were never production motors. DOT would not approve the cammer as a street engine. Nobody would insure it, so they wouldn't be able to use it in Nascar.

You know, guys, a DOHC 426 Hemi did exist in 1970. God's honest truth, it was in development for the 1971 edition of the Superbird and factory estimates put the engine making somewhere in the neighborhood of 670hp with a single Carter four barrel. Unfortunately, it was also ungodly expensive and suffered from oiling problems in the valvetrain. Only seven of the engines were built as test mules for development. As far as anyone knows, they were destroyed by management in the 80's. It is supposed, though, that the tooling does exist. Put that in the Mopar catalog!!!

Also, why has everyone forgotten Zora-Arkus Duntov's contribution to Hemi development, the OHV conversion head set for the old Ford flathead V-8, the Ardun. Those were hemispherical heads and were usually paired with hilborn fuel injection. Good stuff.

Though, if you really want to get technical, I think Ettore Bugatti was using hemi technology before the Silver Arrows. But it's all good, right?:angel:

Yeah, hemi chambers have been around for a long time, and are still in production in many engines today. More expensive than a wedge head, but much better for performance.

Hmm, this quite interesting. I guess you learn something new all the time. Though the only TRUE Hemi are the Chrysler Hemis, and I will stand by that I think they are on of the ultimate engines ever built for automotive use. It is just an opinion I suppose. :)

Originally posted by Cbass
Yeah, hemi chambers have been around for a long time, and are still in production in many engines today. More expensive than a wedge head, but much better for performance.

Can you tell which engines have hemispherical heads today? I am currious because i would like to get one as a crate engine.