Wheel play Question

Howdy I've been having a little slop in my steering lately so it's time to tighten the front up. With the truck on the hoist I could move the front tires to the left and right about 1" either way. It appeared that the slop was coming from the idler arm so 30 minuites and $30.00 later I figured all of the slop was gone. But there is still a little play in it not much but you can still move it maybe 1'4" eitherway. My question is how much play should there be if any at all. I was thinking that the center link could possiby be sloppy but everything appears to be tight. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks Don
2000 S10 Blazer
70,000 miles

Did you replace the idler arm? How does it drive now?

Yes I did I picked up a TRW from Advanced Auto and it did tighten it up quite abit but there still is a little slop And I wanted to know if thats normal. Now I have a nice growl on the front pass side so i'm going to pick up a bearing/hub assembly in the morning.

. . . still is a little slop And I wanted to know if thats normal.
Proper procedure for checking an idler arm for looseness or wear.

The suspension should be normally loaded on the ground or on an alignment rack. When raised by a frame contact hoist, the vehicle's steering linkage is allowed to hang, and proper testing cannot be done.
Jerking the front wheel and tire assembly back and forth (causing an up- and down-movement in the idler arm) is not an acceptable method of checking, as there is no control on the amount of force being applied.
Check the idler arm ends for worn sockets or deteriorated bushings.
Grasp the center link firmly with your hand at the idler arm end.
Push up with approximately a 25-pound (110 N) load.
Pull down with the same load.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-5/1178639/IdlerArmCheck.jpg
The allowable movement of the idler arm and support assembly in one direction is 1/8 inch (3 mm), for a total acceptable movement of 1/4 inch (6 mm).
The load can be accurately measured by using a dial indicator or pull spring scale located as near the center link end of the idler arm as possible.
Keep in mind that the test forces should not exceed 25 pounds (110 N), as even a new idler arm might be forced to show movement due to steel flexing when excessive pressure is applied.
It is also necessary that a scale or ruler be rested against the frame and used to determine the amount of movement.
Observers tend to overestimate the actual movement when a scale is not used.
The idler arm should always be replaced if it fails this test.


Center Links - may also be called a Drag Link, Connecting Arm or Steering Arm Rod.

• When inspecting the center link, look closely to insure it has not been bent or damaged.
• Grasp the center link firmly and try moving it in all directions.
• Any movement, or sign of damage, is reason for replacement.
• Tapered openings seldom wear but should be checked for enlargement caused by a loose connection. If necessary, replace the center link.

Tie-rod end

• Tie-rod end and center link inspections are similar.
• Grasp the tie-rod end firmly.
• Push vertically with the stud, and inspect for movement at the joint with the steering knuckle.

Any movement over 1/8 inch (3 mm) or observation of damaged or missing parts, such as seals, is sufficient evidence that replacement is necessary.
An additional check of the tie-rods can be made by rotating each tie-rod end to feel for roughness or binding, which could indicate that the socket has probably rusted internally. A special puller is often required to separate a tie-rod end from the steering knuckle.

you need to get alignment checked as you changed idler arm also it changed the toe in or out...



SCRAPPER....

you need to get alignment checked as you changed idler arm also it changed the toe in or out...



SCRAPPER....
I agree that is next on my todo list after I change my Hub Today.

Proper procedure for checking an idler arm for looseness or wear.

The suspension should be normally loaded on the ground or on an alignment rack. When raised by a frame contact hoist, the vehicle's steering linkage is allowed to hang, and proper testing cannot be done.
Jerking the front wheel and tire assembly back and forth (causing an up- and down-movement in the idler arm) is not an acceptable method of checking, as there is no control on the amount of force being applied.
Check the idler arm ends for worn sockets or deteriorated bushings.
Grasp the center link firmly with your hand at the idler arm end.
Push up with approximately a 25-pound (110 N) load.
Pull down with the same load.
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-5/1178639/IdlerArmCheck.jpg
The allowable movement of the idler arm and support assembly in one direction is 1/8 inch (3 mm), for a total acceptable movement of 1/4 inch (6 mm).
The load can be accurately measured by using a dial indicator or pull spring scale located as near the center link end of the idler arm as possible.
Keep in mind that the test forces should not exceed 25 pounds (110 N), as even a new idler arm might be forced to show movement due to steel flexing when excessive pressure is applied.
It is also necessary that a scale or ruler be rested against the frame and used to determine the amount of movement.
Observers tend to overestimate the actual movement when a scale is not used.
The idler arm should always be replaced if it fails this test.


Center Links - may also be called a Drag Link, Connecting Arm or Steering Arm Rod.

• When inspecting the center link, look closely to insure it has not been bent or damaged.
• Grasp the center link firmly and try moving it in all directions.
• Any movement, or sign of damage, is reason for replacement.
• Tapered openings seldom wear but should be checked for enlargement caused by a loose connection. If necessary, replace the center link.

Tie-rod end

• Tie-rod end and center link inspections are similar.
• Grasp the tie-rod end firmly.
• Push vertically with the stud, and inspect for movement at the joint with the steering knuckle.

Any movement over 1/8 inch (3 mm) or observation of damaged or missing parts, such as seals, is sufficient evidence that replacement is necessary.
An additional check of the tie-rods can be made by rotating each tie-rod end to feel for roughness or binding, which could indicate that the socket has probably rusted internally. A special puller is often required to separate a tie-rod end from the steering knuckle.

Thank You for this information it was very helpful...

you need to get alignment checked as you changed idler arm also it changed the toe in or out...SCRAPPER....
No, No, No, No - Replacing the idler arm will not affect the toe-in.

oh yes it will..as i am a good alignment man..20 years on the job....

oh yes it will..as i am a good alignment man..20 years on the job....I agree after changing the ilder arm now my steering is off as it was fine before so changing this part definitly throws off the alignment. But I also agree that Installing a idler arm does not throw off toe in and out due to these settings never being touched. I'm going to try adjusting it my self buy trying to adjust the idler arm mount. I maybe able to get it back to where it was before replacing the arm. Don

Great page of info Delcoch!!!!

oh yes it will..as i am a good alignment man..20 years on the job....
Ok, I stand corrected. If the idler arm has adjustable slots at the frame mounting bolts then it will affect toe-in if the new idler arm is not replaced exactly back in the same place, or if the new idler arm is of different size or length from the old one.

70K doesn't seem to be many miles to have a worn out front end parts.

The distance between the ground and the outer tie rod ends is always the same while driving, (unless you're airborn). The distance between the ground and the idler arm/center link connection constantly varies vertically with weight change on the suspension while driving.

If the steering linkage were always perfectly parallel to the ground, there would never be any change in total toe. However, while the center link must be installed parallel with the chassis to avoid "bump steer", the tie rods are NOT parallel with the chassis. The inner ends are always higher than the outer ends. The center link is held parallel to the chassis by the pitman arm on the left side, and by the idler arm on the right side. As the suspension loads, the center link and inner tie rod ends move downward and the inner tie rods become closer to horizontal. This action causes the distance between the outer tie rod mounts, in the steering knuckles, to increase. The increase in distance will cause excessive toe out on GM “T” series vehicles. When the suspension unloads, the opposite occurs.

As the idler arm wears, the amount of total toe from loaded to unloaded, is increased. When the idler arm is replaced, that tolerance is brought back to the allowable limit and will also bring total toe back to where it was before the bushings became worn. Steering linkage, suspension, and wheel alignment, are all about geometry. Understanding how it applies is half the battle.

As the suspension loads, the overall length of the linkage increases.

impossible. the length of the linkage never changes, but the distance between the fixed point (idler arm) and the variable point (the tire angle) changes with the angle of the linkage causing the tire to move with the change in angle of the tie rod. to see this in action pick up one end of a pencil and watch the other end come in and imagine it attached to the lower ball joint drawing the lower half of the tire in and out as the angle changes.

70K doesn't seem to be many miles to have a worn out front end parts.
I bought this truck with a salvage title 4 years ago hit in front. When I had it on the frame rack I replaced the complete right front hub assembley, sway bar with all bushings and the idler arm was replaced at that time also. I had to pull the right front frame horn down and weld on a new bumper bracket. When the job was finished my alighnment man said that all your china parts are junk (idler arm)and will not last so this didn't surprize me it went bad. I just couldn'r pass this deal up a 2000 s10 blazer 4x4 loaded with 29,000 miles for 3995.00. It looked liked it hit a deer in front. I've been driving it since oct 2002 is when I had it inspected and I really haven't had to put a dime in it except maintainance junk. Now after I replaced the right front wheel bearing I still have a front end growl i'm trying to figure out. I can make the growl stop when turning on any right direction or if your going over a hill it stops for 1/4 of a sec. I'm thinking that because It's coming from the front and stops when the body rolls to the right maybe it's the left wheel bearing. I mean I have nothing to lose at this point all I have to do is take the bearing I removed off the pass side and put it on the left side. Also I check the fluid in the front diff and transfer case and they were still full. I'm about out of ideas. Don

...As the suspension loads, the overall length of the linkage increases. As the inner tie rod ends move down, they become closer to horizontal. The increase in overall length, depending on the mounting location of the outer tie rod ends, (forward or rearward of the axis) will increase or decrease total toe...

Sorry Eric,
My choice of words wasn't the best. You are correct in your interpretation of the way that I worded my post. The length of the steering linkage never increases. I have edited the post to read correctly. Thanks for catching my mistake.

Sorry Eric,
My choice of words wasn't the best. You are correct in your interpretation of the way that I worded my post. The length of the steering linkage never increases. I have edited the post to read correctly. Thanks for catching my mistake.

Sorry if i get pendantic at times but your latest post did finaly define, for me, your "fat man" theory of taking into account weight distribution when doing an alignment. a lot of good info in this thread, thanks for yours and all others contributions.

I got that same front end growl, I am replaceing the hub/bearing assembly as we speak but, hope fully it will fix my problem.

I bought this truck with a salvage title 4 years ago hit in front. When I had it on the frame rack I replaced the complete right front hub assembley, sway bar with all bushings and the idler arm was replaced at that time also. I had to pull the right front frame horn down and weld on a new bumper bracket. When the job was finished my alighnment man said that all your china parts are junk (idler arm)and will not last so this didn't surprize me it went bad. I just couldn'r pass this deal up a 2000 s10 blazer 4x4 loaded with 29,000 miles for 3995.00. It looked liked it hit a deer in front. I've been driving it since oct 2002 is when I had it inspected and I really haven't had to put a dime in it except maintainance junk. Now after I replaced the right front wheel bearing I still have a front end growl i'm trying to figure out. I can make the growl stop when turning on any right direction or if your going over a hill it stops for 1/4 of a sec. I'm thinking that because It's coming from the front and stops when the body rolls to the right maybe it's the left wheel bearing. I mean I have nothing to lose at this point all I have to do is take the bearing I removed off the pass side and put it on the left side. Also I check the fluid in the front diff and transfer case and they were still full. I'm about out of ideas. Don

Usually the inner tie rods seem to cause the slack most of the time.

Don,

As they Masitaly wheels on your ride, they look just like mine.

The wear is ALWAYS cause by people not lubing the 10-11 grease fittings on the front end every 6 months.

Usually the inner tie rods seem to cause the slack most of the time.

Don,

As they Masitaly wheels on your ride, they look just like mine.

The wear is ALWAYS cause by people not lubing the 10-11 grease fittings on the front end every 6 months.
BlazerLT My rims are ASA JS5 18 x 7.5 from tire rack.com

After replacing the the idler arm it did definitly tighten up the front end I did get the steering wheel back to the center position by adjusting the postion on the arm. As for the front end grow the sound has gotten worse after replacing the front passenger side wheel bearing. BlazerLt said if your grow goes away when your corner to the right it's the pass side front bearing so I think I have to have a bad new bearing. Because the grow still goes away when cornering to the right. I hate getting bad parts right out of the box!!! Don I'm going to call carquest today and tell them to send me another one a china man must of built ,mine with one eye...

when you replace the bearing make sure you replace the race to..good luck....

when you replace the bearing make sure you replace the race to..good luck....
Race?? This is a 4 wheel drive usually you only have a race with 2 wheel drive cars. Also could a CV-Axle unit make a grow sound also? With my experance is they make a clunking sound and not a grow. I'm still thinking bad bearing.

sorry about that never cought it was 4 wheel drive.but i do know one thing if the bearing they gave you might be wrong one bearing might look the same but might be bigger..a hair bigger will burn it right up...

The front wheel bearings on the vehicle being discussed are contained within a sealed hub assembly which must be replaced as a unit. There are no races or bearing sizes to be concerned with, they are all internal to the assembly.

The one I replaced on mine was noisey ONLY when on the ground...couldn't feel anything unusual with the wheel off the ground.

I'm going to try another bearing today well see if that helps.

Hey guys I did get to replace the Hub/bearing assembly today and it did not help. So I went a little further and picked up a cv-axle shaft and put that in next and still no luck getting rid of this growl. I'm kinda clueless at this point. Taking it for a test drive the only way to make it stop is turn to the right or any right curve. Other than that it is a constant growl that carries it's way through all speeds.Maybe a rear wheel axle bearing When I had it up on the hoist I checked the rear wheels out and didn't see any play.?The U-joint's are tight, the Tranfer case is full. Still $200 bucks later and still have issues!

How about the insided bearing on the right front axle shaft? Or, maybe the left front wheel bearing?

How about the insided bearing on the right front axle shaft? Or, maybe the left front wheel bearing?
I did inspect the inside axle bearing when I replaced the cv shaft and the needles looked fine. I did call around to see if anybody had a new seal and bearing but I didn't have any luck all the stores say there unavailable. I really wanted to get those replaced when I was in there. My next step tomorro is replace the left side wheel bearing with the one I took off the right.

Each hub has two sets of bearings. The inside bearing set on the left hub unloads on a right turn, could very well be that the left hub assembly needs to be replaced.

Each hub has two sets of bearings. The inside bearing set on the left hub unloads on a right turn, could very well be that the left hub assembly needs to be replaced.
I'm going to try that tomorrow hell I have nothing to lose at this point.

Please post your results immediatley......... I have the identical problem, I swear its from the passenger side, mine is quiet when turning right or cornering right.........only thing I dont understand is how when right turning are you unloading the left side???? Cause when you turn right the blazer leans to the left side??

Please post your results imediatly......... I have the identical problem, I swear its from the passenger side, mine is quiet when turning right or cornering right.........only thing I don"t understand is how when right turning are you unloading the left side???? Cause when you turn right the blazer leans to the left side??
Hey I'm with you I don't see how it could come from the drivers side when it sounds like the pass either but sounds can carry. But if you think your's is coming from the pass side I would definitely replace that one first. If it doesn't fix your problem you can always take the one you took off to put on the other side to find out. I'll post my results tomorrow. Don

Noises can be very difficult to locate, even for a professional. Each hub has two sets of ball bearings: an inner and an outer. When turning right, vehicle body weight transfers to the left. This reduces the weight on the right outer and left inner bearings. It increases the load on the right inner and left outer bearings. Turning left does just the opposite. When the load is reduced on a bearing, generally it will quiet down. Depending on what bearing is worn, and how each bearing set is worn, noises can occur going straight or turning either direction.

Noises can be very difficult to locate, even for a professional. Each hub has two sets of ball bearings: an inner and an outer. When turning right, vehicle body weight transfers to the left. This reduces the weight on the right outer and left inner bearings. It increases the load on the right inner and left outer bearings. Turning left does just the opposite. When the load is reduced on a bearing, generally it will quiet down. Depending on what bearing is worn, and how each bearing set is worn, noises can occur going straight or turning either direction.
Old_master your a very wise man. I replaced the drivers side bearing today with the one that came off the pass side and finaly fixed the problem, the drivers side bearing was definitly shot. You could not tell it was bad just rotating it on the hub on the truck, you literly had to remove it and have it in your hands before you could tell it was bad. A good bearing should be tight in a sense to rotate it and you should not feel any rough patchs or bumps in the bearing, it should rotate tight and smoothly. I was hesitant to believe it could be the drivers bearing when the sound (I thought) was coming from the pass side. This was a good lesson for me and it only cost $58.00 more than I had to spend. Good Deal Don Thank You all for the great suggestion!!!!!!!:smokin:

o.k. o.k. I'm confused somewhat here. I have read this whole thread and I am not sure if you can just replace bearings or if you have to replace the whole hub. Anyone care to clear it up for me?

Thanks!

The bearings are not serviceable. The hub assembly must be replaced.

o.k. o.k. I'm confused somewhat here. I have read this whole thread and I am not sure if you can just replace bearings or if you have to replace the whole hub. Anyone care to clear it up for me?

Thanks!Well it depends on your situation. If you have a 2wd you will replace just the bearings and races in the rotors. Now if you have a 4wd you have hub/bearings witch are 1 unit at a cost of $150 for china hubs/bearing and $300 for GM hubs/bearing.
Recap...In 4wd's the hub/bearings are 1 piece units with the abs brake sensor and are non serviceable.

oh yea!!!!!!!!!!

Replaced the passenger side hub assembly and its now quieter then when I bought it! Thanks Guys

oh yea!!!!!!!!!!

Replaced the passenger side hub assembly and its now quieter then when I bought it! Thanks Guys

Sweet! :D