Rough Running - Some knocking

OK, here is the skinny. 1996 Wagon 1.9 , 115K It's the Mrs. car to drive to work 50+ miles each way every day. Twisting, turning, hilly road. A couple of times last week, the car starts chugging and loss of power going up hill. Once at top, returns to normal. I put in carb/injector cleaner and get a fresh tank of gas. All is well for a couple of days. It does it again on Wednesday and doesn't stop. She pulls over and stops driving it. I come and check the obvious things , all look ok. We drive/limp it back to nearest town to local mechanic. They "check it" and say compression loss. $1000 for valve/head job or $2250 for used engine. I say stop and back away. I drive car home and pull valve cover. All looks OK. I pull plugs. 1 and 4 are black. 2 and 3 are white. I can remove plug wire on 1 or 4 and engines runs rough as it did before. Remove 2 or 3 and engine will not start. Replaced wires. Same result. Burnt valve? Bad coil pack? No smoke from exhaust when running but strong smell of gas. No milkshake looking oil. Any ideas beyond pulling head, 'cause that is beyond me to attempt. :banghead:

I would first replace/or-test the ignition pack. Cyl #1 and Cyl #4 share half the pack ... and its a long shot, but the pack may be bad.

I never had knocking but after i first got my 98 (bought in 2004 with 195 000 kms) it ran rough/ hesitated on hills as well. After i searched this forum, it seemed pretty likely that the wires are the common fault. I replaced the plugs first and that didnt help, then i checked out the wires and 2 were not within the proper resistance range (which i forget but they are posted here somewhere...you could probably search for my alias/handle and find it pretty fast.) Havent had a problem since i replaced the wires

update:
I did the search, her is the link:
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=396021&highlight=dllewell
I was a little wrong above, it seems like the old/improperly gapped plugs were the big culprit, I replaced the wires because of how different they were from the manual specs (my old wires had too low a resistance)

hope this helps

d.

Ditto on the plugs and wires. That is a good place to start. If they are burned up then they need to be replaced anyway.
Also do a compression check and see what it reveals.

OK..Holidays are over and have spent some more time on this. Here is what I know for sure. Coil pack is good. Wires are good. Plugs are good. Code reader indicates a misfire condition on cyl 4. Compression check reveals -0- PSI on Cyl 4. 160 - 170 on the other 3. Blown gasket? Burnt valve? I am at almost at the end of what I know to look for without major teardown. Any ideas?

I would do a search on "inlet valve inserts". I had one to fall on cyl #4 ... wiped the piston out.

With 0 psi the head is going to have to come off. If you have the means to do it yourself, get started. Otherwise, get it to a shop and expect to dish out a few hundred bucks at minimum.

Could be a gasket, could be the popular valve seat problem. I doubt the rings are bad since the other cylinders are still so high.

If you take it off yourself and don't see any damage to the head or pistons, you most likely just need a new gasket.

Here's an update........ Started removing the head this weekend. Have the intake loose and the exhaust loose except for 1 bolt. Tried to loosen the head bolts. Broke an extention and a socket...bolt still tight. Gave up for now. Going to seek out a strong breaker bar/socket combo and try it again one night this week. What an adventure so far!!!!!

For future reference, the head can be removed with the intake and exhaust attached... will save you a little time and money on gaskets too.

Those head bolts are pretty tight. Use at least a 1/2 inch drive breaker bar with a very short extension if you find one necessary. The longer it is the easier it is to break.

Loosen the bolts slowly, in the reverse pattern of the tightening sequence.

Once it is off, any sign of damage to the top of your piston or on the head will suggest a valve seat problem. Ususally there is a gawdawful noise associated with that though, so I don't expect you to find damage. More likely a gasket issue.... but since the head is off anyway you might want to spend a few bucks and have the valves and seats redone anyway ;)

Definitely have the head and valves serviced. And direct the shop to "cinch" all the valve seats to assure one doesn't come loose later on.

The valves, valve seats and seals catch more abuse than the piston rings and cylinders .... so you should normally get an easy 100k miles more on the engine.

For future reference, the head can be removed with the intake and exhaust attached... will save you a little time and money on gaskets too.

;)

I heard that you could take it off with the manifolds attached, but they would need to come off anyway I believe. If the problem is a valve, seat, whatever with the head, I am considering just doing a complete replacement. I found a place in Jersey that will sell a remanufactured head with everything installed, including a new cam, with gaskets and bolts for $300.00. Does that sound like a deal? Sure beats the $1000.00 the local shop quoted. Of course thats my labor.:iceslolan

If your head is damaged a great deal, you will only get "core" value for it and $300 for the transaction is about what I would expect.

If, however, you head is repairable (not many cracks, etc .. and the cam is OK): then valve and valve seat resurfacing, new seals, and head "surfacing" ... will cost about $150 - $175. Prices what I remember typical for Dover Cylinder Head Service.

If you are getting a new bolt set included for that price .. I would say its Very Good!

Final Update**************
The 'scort is dead..... Head pulled off revealed significant damage to piston and underside of head. Appears that something "broke" loose and wreaked havoc inside the chamber. Hate to see it die, but no way am I going to spend $$$ for complete rebuild. Time to replace......


Thanks for all of the suggestions.:disappoin

You aren't the first, and you won't be the last.

That one happened to me twice... sucky.

This confirms my suspicions ... another valve insert to get loose. Probably cyl #4. ???

I don't know how many production "lines" were manufacturing Escort cylinder heads, but someone was asleep on one of them for years!

This confirms my suspicions ... another valve insert to get loose. Probably cyl #4. ???

I don't know how many production "lines" were manufacturing Escort cylinder heads, but someone was asleep on one of them for years!

And the winner is ........Number 4!!!!!!!


I just hope my '95 doesn't "drop" dead on me too.

Just when I thought this was over......A friend of mine suggested that if the cylinder wall was OK on number 4, replace the head and get it back on the road. Not to worry about the pitting and buildup on the top of the piston. Any ideas? Is he full of $*&@ or what? I must admit, $350.00 for a new head is cheaper than replacing the car.:banghead:

This is a case by case thing. He is correct though. If the cylinder wall is ok and you do not have piston "damage"... then the pitting on top of the piston is no problem.

Keep in mind that you have more to do than simply replace the head. You may have small bits of metal inside the intake too. DO a thorough job to clean the intake to make sure you don't suck that metal right back in to the new head.

This is a case by case thing. He is correct though. If the cylinder wall is ok and you do not have piston "damage"... then the pitting on top of the piston is no problem.

Keep in mind that you have more to do than simply replace the head. You may have small bits of metal inside the intake too. DO a thorough job to clean the intake to make sure you don't suck that metal right back in to the new head.

Very good advice!

I would remove that one piston for inspection. If the top got pounded, there's a chance that the ring-grooves have collapsed and locked the rings in place. There may also be fractures in the sidewalls of the piston, especially around the wrist pin.

On my #4 piston, the top of the piston (from oil ring up to crown) had split away from the rest of the piston. I had a two-piece piston!

Maybe if you remove the oil pan you can inspect the piston from below? You won't be able to see the rings, but at least can have a better look at the rest of the piston and the cylinder wall.

I would think if the rings got crushed you would see scratch marks on the cylinder... maybe not though.

I bet if the cylinder wall looks good and you can't find any piston damage you will be safe to just replace the head.

The oil pan is fairly easy to drop on an Escort. Then just separate that one rod cap and push the rod and piston upward. "Screw-on" short lengths of 1/4" hose (split the ends for a 1/2" distance) on the rod screws to protect the crankshaft bearing surface. I believe you can buy a single standard piston with rings ... but not sure about the rings.

In fact, this a good opportunity to clean all ring grooves and replace all piston rings.