Suicide, the argument against a God?

Ok in my Values and Ethics class we had to read a passage by Albert Camus. Bascially what his whole idea was that suicide shows there is no God. I'll pick out some of what he wrote.

If you want to know more the author is Albert Camus (1913-1960) and the work I quoted from is called The Myth of Sisyphus.

There is but one truly serious philosophical problem, and that is suicide. Judging whether life is or is not worth living amounts to answering the fundamental question of philosophy. All the rest-whether or not the world has three dimensions, whether the mind has nice or twelve categories-comes afterwads.

It happens that the stage sets collapse. Rising, streetcar, four hours in the office or the factory, meal, streetcar, four hours of work, meal, sleep, and Monday Tuesday Wenesday Thursday Friday and Saturday according to the same rhythm-this path is easily followed most of the time. But one day the "why" arises and everything begins in that weariness tinged with amazement. "Begins"-this is important. Weariness comes at the end of the acts of mechanical life, but at the same time it inaugurates the impulse of consciousness. It awakens consciousness and provokes what follows. What follows is the gradual return into the chain or it is the definitive awakening. At the end of the awakening comes, in time, the consequence:suicide or recovery.

Either we are not free and God the allpowerful is responsible for evil. Or we are free and responsible but God is not all-powerful.

Suicide, like the leap, is acceptance at its extreme. Everything is over and man returns to his essential history. His future, his unique and dreadful future-he sees and rushes toward it. In its way, suicde settles the absurd.

Yet a day comes when a man notices or says that he is thrity. He belongs to time, and by the horror that seizes him, he recognizes his worst enemy. Tomorrow, he was longing for tomorrow, whereas everything in him ought to reject it.

The absurd man thus catches sight of a burning and frigid, transparent and limited universe in which nothing is possible but everything is given, and beyond which all is collapse and nothingness. He can decide to accept such a universe and draw from it his strength, his refusal to hope, and the unyielding evidence of a life without consolation.

Knowing whether or not man is free involves knowing whether he can have a master.

I'm sure parts of this are hard to understand but I can't type the entire thing. What he basically is saying is that one day we will all realize we are nothing. There is no meaning to life or the universe. We will all accept it and find out the true meaning of life is to just live it out. The alternative is we will turn to suicide unable to deal with this truth about the universe. He says though that suicide is freedom and a man who does it, although wrong, has complete control over his life. With a God though this is not possible.

Anyway, what are your guy's thoughts on this? Agree? Disagree?

"Either we are not free and God the allpowerful is responsible for evil. Or we are free and responsible but God is not all-powerful."

Couldn't count how many times I've said that on this forum, about as true as it gets when it comes to the idea of god. Camus is an absolute philosophical genius and doesn't get the credit he deserves. But anyways I completely agree, in fact reading Camus in high school finally awoke me to the harsh reality of the impossibilit of God's existence. I have no problems with people commiting suicide, except for the impact it has on others around them. If somebody desires to do themselves in, then they should be able to do so.

An aside about Camus, you should check out "the stranger", it is absoutely amazing.

I'm no fan or believer of any religion by any means but the implication that it is either:

A. God is responsible for everything that happens, evil included

or

B. God only does the good stuff and/or can't control the evil and thus is not all powerful

is flawed. The reason this is so, as any believer will give you in a heart beat, is that supposedly God is all powerful but does not interject his will into all matters. The sheer fact that he did not do anything about a particular situation is not the same as not being able to do anything about it.

This is the whole basis of religious morality, Almight Bruce has given you free will and is going to stand back to see what you do with it.

Now it is true that God is responsible for evil in the sense that he created a universe that has evil in it but that same logic would tell you that GM is responsible for drunk drivers simply because they built the car.

Nihilism

Cant say i disagree or agree. But i will say that suicide is one of the most confusing and agrumented subjects i have probably tried discussing.

im gonna have to go with the previous posters, i think that if god was all powerful he would stop things from happening. for a god that claims to love his creations more than anything, to let them do something that would lead to their eternal destruction seems not only injust but pretty sadistic. there is no justice or compassion in the christian religion, if you look at it more closeley. it is claimed that god shows compassion for sending his son to die so we could be saved of our sins. but why should people be punished for just being the way we were created. why create a creature with imperfections and then punish them for it.

Personally, I believe Camus' argument, while flawed, is interesting. However, the passages you give do not address free will.

If people do have free will, it is not inevitable they will accept suicide as a solution to the idea of a universe without meaning. For many of us, God is irrelevant to our lives, yet our lives are rich and full, despite th fact that all we do will amount to nothing, in the long run.

We are able to stare in the face of futility and find dignity and meaning in our lives without God.

I know this is not Camus' point; he was addressing the issue of God's existence and influence, not free will (which is a different philosophical topic all together. )

Sounds like basic rubbish that a lot of people say. While suicide is far from complicated, it's still not something i would say people are always stupid for performing. Sometimes it's when you're caught up in the moment and other times it's a build up overtime.

NOt complicated, not difficult to see it happen or to see it in someone. But the talk about is talk complicated at all. THe whole where you go thing with Catholics seems harsh. Hell immediately, but w/e. That's a different discussion.

BAck on topic. If God is all powerful wtf!?! Seriously...free will. Even says he gave it to us. No direct contact, just influence. If that from Him. I don't believe in diving intervention, so to me, these writings right here are like that of a 4th grader.

And divine intervention, for those not in the know, means the outside act of a higher power. Which many Christians do believe in. The whole miracle thing, and while i believe in miracles, just not that He said, "let it be so" at the moment in order for it to happen.

So yeah, and suicide is more commonly something attempted/succeeded at the moment and not planned and happens more among young people for this reason.

So way more murders are not fully pre-meditated and more like the spouse gets home and sees the other in the arms of a lover.

And sorry, i can't reiterate enough how childish i think this is. Seriously, it's no different then when someone dies they're like "Why GOd!?! Why didn't you stop it!?" and because of that, they don't believe anymore. Ok, so if God saved everyone, we'd have a lot of people here. o0o0o0 but he's God and he could then make that not a problem. Heck, he make anything not a problem, especially Africa which is pretty much Hell on earth.

Or...heck, he simply doesn't want. to. Being the human race, i wouldn't want to help them either. And it's not evil to not want to help. How many goldfish, ant farms, etc go to waste due to negligence. Only difference, this one is by choice.

Oh right, mine was due to build up and too close to forget. i've helped many, but most were just ones int he moment. Still, it's suicide, not complicated to understand or to get to.

Either god created a world in which evil is possible, which means that he is not all good. Or he was unable to create a world in which evil could not exist, in which case he is not all powerful. The capacity to do evil through free will was either bestowed upon humans or unavoidable in the creation of the world. Thus god is either not all powerful or not all good.

My take...

Either we are not free and God the allpowerful is responsible for evil

Responsible? We all go back to free will. We have a free will to be evil or not. Now he could come in and stop somebody who is evil, but isn't that against the point? We have a choice.

Some parents have a child who grows up and creates a flesh eating virus that destroys half of the world. The parents are considered a "traditional family" with morals and values.

Are those parents responsible for that evil? They created that child and brought him into the world. However he had the free will. He decided to do evil acts and go on and on.

Or we are free and responsible but God is not all-powerful

Again, isn't have a free will being free and responsible? We're free to do whatever we want and responsible to face the punishment.

The kid that made the flesh eating virus gets away with it and lives a nice life. However when he dies (according to your religion) he's in for a world of hurt.

Fair?

60 years on this Earth without punishment < an eternity of punishment

Either god created a world in which evil is possible, which means that he is not all good. Or he was unable to create a world in which evil could not exist, in which case he is not all powerful. The capacity to do evil through free will was either bestowed upon humans or unavoidable in the creation of the world. Thus god is either not all powerful or not all good.

You're just repeating the same flawed statement.

The argument you'll get from any believer:

God created a universe without any evil in it. Look on the side of the box, "Evil content is 0%". He did not create evil. There was nothing evil about him. What he did do is create humans with free will to do good or evil. All evil in the world was created by man. But since God sets it up like that to weed out the good from the bad he didn't interject himself into the situation. Just because he created a universe in which there was the potential for evil does not make him evil. You can run someone through with muffler but that doesn't mean the exhaust shop that sold it to you is going to be put on trial.

God Inc. is not liable for misuse of free will by the end user as per the EULA.

Now this is all beside the point that all religion is entirely flawed and retarded from one end to the other.

^ he supposedly created the snake in the garden of eden, which was evil and not human. why create the snake if you know that it will trick adam and eve into losing their salvation. apparently god likes to set people up for failure.

^ he supposedly created the snake in the garden of eden, which was evil and not human. why create the snake if you know that it will trick adam and eve into losing their salvation. apparently god likes to set people up for failure.

Actually the snake is Satan and Satan, or Lucifer, had freel will as well and didn't put it to good use either. He got the idea that he was actually better than God and was more powerful than him. He wasn't though and was cast out.

God Inc. is not liable for misuse of free will by the end user as per the EULA.

Haha I like that.

aahh, but what is truly puzzling is if the universe had just been created and the only humans ever created till that point were adam and eve then where did satan come from? to become and angel you have to be human first. so he went from human to angel to outcast all before adam and eve even had time to procreate.

the only humans ever created till that point were adam and eve then where did satan come from?

He was before the time of Adam and Eve.

to become and angel you have to be human first.

I have never heard that before. Yes in cartoons you become an angel when you die but I've never heard this as an actual belief. Most beliefs I've heard of hold angels as the buffer between man and creator.

aahh, but what is truly puzzling is if the universe had just been created and the only humans ever created till that point were adam and eve then where did satan come from? to become and angel you have to be human first. so he went from human to angel to outcast all before adam and eve even had time to procreate.


Satan is known as a Fallen Angel and thus existed before the creation of man. That Satan manifested himself to Adam and Eve in the form of a serpent does not mean that God is in fact evil, it simply means that Satan chose a form created by God to tempt Adam and Eve.

Evil exists as long as man exists. However, not because God created man to have some bit of evil in him, but because, as has been said, God gave man the freedom to choose what path he wanted for life. From that, man can choose good or evil.


Ezekiel 28--the origin of Satan
His Beauty and Perfection
Ezekiel is careful to point out that Satan is a created being. He is not eternal, but limited and finite. Before the fall, Lucifer is perfect...intellectually and physically. Ez. 28:13 describes the beauty of Lucifer. "The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created." Christian writer Dwight Pentecost wrote "It was not necessary for Lucifer to learn to play a musical instrument in order to praise God. If you please, he had a built-in pipe organ.......Lucifer, because of his beauty, did what a musical instrument would do in the hands of a skilled musician.....Lucifer didn't have to look for someone to play the organ so that he could sing the doxology..he was the doxology." His name "serpent" means "The shining one." Paul also describes him as "an angel of light". (II Cor 11:14)

His Place: He was in Eden, the garden of God, on the holy mountain of God. (Later Ezekiel remarks, "You defiled your sanctuaries.") Ez. 28:18

His Power: Ez 28:14 says, "You were the anointed cherub who covers." He was one of the cherubs that could look upon the glory of God and voice praise and thanksgiving directly to Him. The cherubim were one of the highest orders of the angels and it was over this class of angels that Lucifer was given authority.

His Pride: Ez. 28:15-18 Iniquity was found in him--his heart was lifted up because of his beauty--He corrupted his wisdom for the sake of his splendor.

Isaiah 14:13-14 - The 5 things Satan wanted:
1. Lucifer wanted God's place. "I will ascend into heaven." He wanted to move God off His throne.
2. Lucifer wanted God's position. "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God." "Stars" = angels of God. Lucifer was never the Commander-in-Chief of the angelic army, but he was a Five-Star General. He was not happy just being in charge of the cherubim; he wanted sole authority over all the angels without submitting himself to the authority of the Creator. He wanted to eliminate God from the scene.
3. He wants to control all the universe--absolute control. "I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north."
4. He was no longer happy to be a reflector of his Creator, he wanted to be the originator. "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds." Of the 150 references to clouds in the Bible, over 100 of them are related to the presence and glory of God. Lucifer was saying he was going to take to himself a greater glory than the glory of God.
5. He wanted to be responsible to no one but himself. He wanted total independence. "I will be like the Most High."

His Punishment: Therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of the mount of God (28:16). I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the fiery stones" (vs. 16) I cast you to the ground (vs. 17) I laid you before kings, that they might gaze at you (vs 17) I brought fire from your midst....it devoured you. (vs. 18) I turned you to ashes upon the earth (vs 18)

Lucifer's proud heart was the reason for his fall, and the Bible tells us he did indeed fall, and took some of the angels with him. (Rev. 12:7-12) Some believe that Satan's fall to earth took place at Jesus' resurrection or ascension. What we must remember is that Christ is victorious, but the devil is not a symbol or legend, he is very real. He is an angel turned into a devil by pride. And pride is still a very real temptation that faces us persistently--because Satan is seeking to reproduce himself--the most prideful being of all. "The Devil sleeps like an animal in the shadow of good works waiting for us to conceive a secret admiration of ourselves."

Did God know the pride that would captivate the heart of Lucifer when He created him? Yes, since God is omniscient, He knew.
Could God have prevented it? Yes, since God is omnipotent, He could have. Why didn't He? How could a perfect, holy being fall? Satan had no sinful world to lure him, no tempter to push him and no innate sinful nature to overpower him. How could the first unholy affection arise in an angelic being?
The answer lies in the fact that Lucifer was created with a freedom to choose just as we are. God gave angels and people the choice of good or evil. But, even though God permits the devil to do his work in this world, God is still in control. And Jesus has complete power over Satan--he defeated Satan when he died and rose again for the sins of mankind. One day Satan will be bound forever, never again to do his evil work. But until that day, we who belong to Christ are part of the ongoing battle--for our very souls. Our weapons are the Word of God, being watchful, giving no place to him and resisting him.


This is where I found this information: http://www.lotc.org/Angel/lesson5.htm

You're just repeating the same flawed statement.

The argument you'll get from any believer:

God created a universe without any evil in it. Look on the side of the box, "Evil content is 0%". He did not create evil. There was nothing evil about him. What he did do is create humans with free will to do good or evil. All evil in the world was created by man. But since God sets it up like that to weed out the good from the bad he didn't interject himself into the situation. Just because he created a universe in which there was the potential for evil does not make him evil. You can run someone through with muffler but that doesn't mean the exhaust shop that sold it to you is going to be put on trial.

God Inc. is not liable for misuse of free will by the end user as per the EULA.

Now this is all beside the point that all religion is entirely flawed and retarded from one end to the other.

If god created the universe, he is responsible for everything within that universe, including the capacity to do evil. Whether he directly involves himself in evil actions or not, his creation of a world in which evil exists (versus a world where evil does not exist) places that responsibility on him. If he was all powerful and all good, he would have created a universe in which evil is NOT POSSIBLE. Otherwise, he is responsible for every evil action that has occurred, since his creation of the universe resulted in evil actions. Not to mention that if he was all TRULY powerful/all knowing, he would have known that his creation of the world would result in evil. Not to mention also that god "created" a world in which hundreds of thousands of innocent people are killed by natural disasters, which blows the whole all good argument right out of the water. So, like I said, the ideas of simultaneously being all powerful and all good are irreconcilable in the context of the creation of our universe.

Edit: Just realized, massively off-topic, not meaning to hijack

ya'll are far to uneducated in general in theology to argue anything. all you know is your beliefs and nothing more.

Human to angel? Time to take a break from saturday morning cartoons. God is not all powerful or all good? First of all, that's like trying to figure out a n00bs personality after one post. All you know is what is here on Earth and nothing more. Heck, maybe God is shaking His head at us and all this stupidity.

Believers as BAS is putting it have no arguments. they have text to reiterate from as much as you have from reading from non-believer writings. the only way to argue this with intelligence is not by using the same arguement again or going deeper than copying and pasting.

God is all powerful and good and because of that, He can do whatever He wants. How can you argue that someone is not by human definitions. Good? what is good? It all comes down to killing a baby to save 100 lives. And we're talking brutal baby murder vs saving a 100 lives. Neither is good, but one is better.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that God is this or exists, idc wtf ya'll believe. But, these threads are getting quite pointless because they're all the same and get very tiring of copying and pasting te same argument into each thread.

Personally, I believe Camus' argument, while flawed, is interesting. However, the passages you give do not address free will.

If people do have free will, it is not inevitable they will accept suicide as a solution to the idea of a universe without meaning. For many of us, God is irrelevant to our lives, yet our lives are rich and full, despite th fact that all we do will amount to nothing, in the long run.

We are able to stare in the face of futility and find dignity and meaning in our lives without God.

I know this is not Camus' point; he was addressing the issue of God's existence and influence, not free will (which is a different philosophical topic all together. )

After perusing all the recent posts, this strikes me as the most poignant, IMO.

Life is life, and if anyone truly examines their life activities, it usually sans any "spiritual" influence. Basic behavioral principles have shown, [and if you examine your own life-activities], that the current environment [or milieu, if you prefer], dictates your actions. Your actions, in response to that milieu, change that milieu, which then react on you to cause your next behavior. Cause and effect at it's basic level.

Therefore, someone who decides to opt-out of the milieu by ending it, has merely reacted to a chain of events they have dictated and responded to. This is simplified, granted, however, the "opt-outer" is simply responding to a set of events he/she has begun and then responded to in a chain of events that further occur from one action that starts the chain of that milieu.

Essentially, no loss of gene-pool.

In fact reading Camus in high school finally awoke me to the harsh reality of the impossibilit of God's existence.

I agree...

Imo ~ If we lived in a perfect world people would be killing them selves alot more often. Persuit of evil makes many want to live to fight another day correct?

ya'll are far to uneducated in general in theology to argue anything. all you know is your beliefs and nothing more.

Human to angel? Time to take a break from saturday morning cartoons. God is not all powerful or all good? First of all, that's like trying to figure out a n00bs personality after one post. All you know is what is here on Earth and nothing more. Heck, maybe God is shaking His head at us and all this stupidity.

Believers as BAS is putting it have no arguments. they have text to reiterate from as much as you have from reading from non-believer writings. the only way to argue this with intelligence is not by using the same arguement again or going deeper than copying and pasting.

God is all powerful and good and because of that, He can do whatever He wants. How can you argue that someone is not by human definitions. Good? what is good? It all comes down to killing a baby to save 100 lives. And we're talking brutal baby murder vs saving a 100 lives. Neither is good, but one is better.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that God is this or exists, idc wtf ya'll believe. But, these threads are getting quite pointless because they're all the same and get very tiring of copying and pasting te same argument into each thread.

Why are you wasting bandwidth criticizing others when you have nothing insightful to add? You have not formed a coherent or intelligent thought in this post, and it seems to function only to attack others. It's funny that you criticize us for having no understanding of theology but there is no indication in your posts that you have any formal training in theology or philosophy. If you think these threads are pointless, then take you self righteous attitude elsewhere.:disappoin

Now it is true that God is responsible for evil in the sense that he created a universe that has evil in it but that same logic would tell you that GM is responsible for drunk drivers simply because they built the car.

I agree with you on some points but that analogy is horrible...I think a better example would be gm purposely making it acceptable to drink and drive, such as making a compartment within easy access of the driver to drink beer or making the cars run on beer with a small tube from the gas tank to the driver compartment...

By creating a universe that evil has the ability to exist means he created it with the intention of allowing evil to exist...thus it means that god has evil within him or he had no control to stop evil from existing and therefore created a universe which allowed it by default.

Either god not all powerful or he is evil

Or we could assume that everything is evil by default and therefore god only created the good things in life...but if god was the first, the ultimate, the only...then he should have control to create and make whatever rules the galaxy and living creatures abide by and interact with....

Don't argue against God. You'll either get God mad, for trying to argue against him, or you'll get christians mad for ruining their point of life or something.