Knocking in Engine

Well, the other day I took the wifes car up to the gas station, and when I started it I immediately noticed a loud ticking or knocking sound in the engine.

I have driven this car regularly since we bought it used about a year ago, and I knew right away it was not normal.

I have read a lot here about engine noises in these cars. Some say their noise goes away after it warms up or is driven for a while. My noise does not go away, it stays about the same.

I have only driven the car a few miles though since this started, but far enough to get it good and hot....

I read in another thread that these cars really need 5-30W oil, and a "high flow" filter. I have been running 20-50W since I got the car thinking it really couldn't make much difference.

Could this have damaged a lifter, rocker arm, or push rod? especially since the weather turned "cold" here... (in Savannah that means about 35 degrees F)

This weekend I am going to change the oil to 5-30W and put in the standard Purolator filter.

I also have the coolant light syndrome, where it comes on intermittently, but the coolant is not low. It does look rather thick and sickly though, and I am going to flush it this weekend as well.

I do not seem to have the Intake gasket problem, Yet. There is no evidence of oil in the coolant or vice versa. However, if I need to go in to work on the lifters, rockers, or push rods I guess I'll be getting new gaskets anyway.

I have searched and read several posts in this forum regarding these problems. I have one or two more questions that do not seem to have been addressed (at least that I can remember, blurry eyes...)

Could the 20-50W oil have caused my problem? I use a mid grade Fram filter.

If I have a bad lifter, rocker or push rod, how will I be able to tell?

I have searched out the FelPro gasket set and others at Advance AP.... the FelPro set cost about $75 and does not seem as complete as the Dorman set which cost about $40 and comes with new bolts, upper and lower gaskets, etc. Does anyone know anything about the quality of the Dorman gaskets?

Thanks to all for your help... in advance!

Bill

As someone once told me - look near the thermostat housiong and see if you can see antifreez. Also, take off the valve covers and physically move the rockers. Could be a stripped out rocker.

Bill,Bill,Bill :shakehead


Engine oil viscosity thickness has an effect on the fuel economy and the cold-weather operation engine starting and oil flow. Lower viscosity engine oils can provide better fuel economy and cold-weather performance. However, higher temperature weather conditions require higher viscosity engine oils for satisfactory lubrication. When the temperature will be 0°F (-18°C) or above, use SAE 10W 30. If the temperature falls below -20°F (-29°C), consider using an SAE 5W 30 synthetic oil or an SAE 0W 30 oil. Do not use viscosity oils such as SAE 20W 50.

Notice: Using oils of any viscosity other than those recommended could result in engine damage. When choosing an oil, consider the range of temperatures the vehicle will be operated in before the next oil change. Then, select the recommended oil viscosity.



You say this is a knocking noise..knocking noises generally indicate lower engine concerns...a ticking noise indicates an upper engine noise
There is a good chance you have coolant in your oil..check for a milky residue around the oil fill cap or under the rocker cover.

Thanks for the oily info. I live in South Georgia so the temps never get anywhere near 0 degrees F. During the winter we can expect to see possible lows in the teens.... so I guess based on what you say I should use a 10W30 regular oil...

We have extremely hot weather in the summer, lows around 60-70 degrees F, and highs near 100 degrees F. Shouldn't I use a higher viscosity oil in these extremely hot conditions? What would you suggest?

The "knocking" is really what I would call a loud tapping.... "ticking" just doesn't do it.... ticking sound is what the rocker arms do in my 89 BMW 525.... the valve train "ticks" along when the clearances are just right...

This noise does seem to come from near the top of the motor... I am being hopeful.... If its down deep, I will probably have to pay someone to fix it.

I flushed the coolant this past weekend and what came out of the radiator and block looked pretty clear and reddish.... the expansion tank was a different story... it had brown clotty snot all in it.... I had to pull it and wash it out in the shop sink for a while to get all that crap out.

I did not see any milky stuff on the oil filler cap, and the oil itself looks OK.... I will maybe pull the valve covers this week end and check there. I want to do this anyway to check the rocker arms for the tapping sound....

Assuming my gaskets have not started leaking yet (work with me here), could I possibly avoid this problem alltogether by just torquing the lower intake bolts to the new spec?

Thanks!

Thanks for the oily info. I live in South Georgia so the temps never get anywhere near 0 degrees F. During the winter we can expect to see possible lows in the teens.... so I guess based on what you say I should use a 10W30 regular oil...

We have extremely hot weather in the summer, lows around 60-70 degrees F, and highs near 100 degrees F. Shouldn't I use a higher viscosity oil in these extremely hot conditions? What would you suggest?

The "knocking" is really what I would call a loud tapping.... "ticking" just doesn't do it.... ticking sound is what the rocker arms do in my 89 BMW 525.... the valve train "ticks" along when the clearances are just right...

This noise does seem to come from near the top of the motor... I am being hopeful.... If its down deep, I will probably have to pay someone to fix it.

I flushed the coolant this past weekend and what came out of the radiator and block looked pretty clear and reddish.... the expansion tank was a different story... it had brown clotty snot all in it.... I had to pull it and wash it out in the shop sink for a while to get all that crap out.

I did not see any milky stuff on the oil filler cap, and the oil itself looks OK.... I will maybe pull the valve covers this week end and check there. I want to do this anyway to check the rocker arms for the tapping sound....

Assuming my gaskets have not started leaking yet (work with me here), could I possibly avoid this problem alltogether by just torquing the lower intake bolts to the new spec?

Thanks!
Last question first NO.

from what you describe, it sounds like the upper end..maybe lifters collapsing.
I have had a few where the was no evidence of a coolant leak until I pulled off the rocker cover. Maybe some deeper visual inspections are in order here

Well, it was worth asking.... I will order the Felpro gaskets and stuff and prepare to do this when I take time off at the end of the month.

Better to go on it now since I have reason (tapping) than to wait for the major leaking to start and possibly ruin the whole motor.

GM really should make this right though... it will certainly affect my opinion of them...

Well, it was worth asking.... I will order the Felpro gaskets and stuff and prepare to do this when I take time off at the end of the month.

Better to go on it now since I have reason (tapping) than to wait for the major leaking to start and possibly ruin the whole motor.

GM really should make this right though... it will certainly affect my opinion of them...
Order a Dorman kit..it comes with the bolts and seals also.
If the engine is making a noise now, damage is already done..you didn't help it with your choice of oil viscosity

Well, its apart.... Now for the clean up and jigsaw puzzle of reassembly....

I think I kept all the parts....

Anyway, I did not lose the fuel rail o-ring, thanks to many notes here in this forum warning of that particular pitfall....

And I have found a collapsed lifter on the intake side of Cyl #3. That, I am assuming, was the source of my "knocking sound", (loud tapping).

My questions currently are:

Should I replace all the lifters or just the one collapsed lifter? ($12 or $150?) I know it doesn't make sense to leave any of these lifters in there.... If another one fails I'll have to do all this over again!

The lifters have an oil hole on one side. How should these be oriented in the lifter bores? Does it matter? On the "front" side of the engine (Cyl 2,4,6) they were oriented as such: on #2 both oil holes on outside away from each other, on #4 they both faced inward facing each other in the bores... and on #6 both facing outward again.

Of course I took the ones out of 1,3, and 5 before realizing there might be a need to put them in a certain way, so I cannot use those as a reference.... and besides... my engine may have been improper assembled... to begin with so I am asking if anyone knows the correct answer here?

The lifters have springs in them. Should I be able to push the internal piece down against the spring with minimal effort? I cannot push any of these down at all....

Thanks to all....

Lifters do not have to be oriented they have a full time common oil pressure source, just get them back on the same lobes, you could replace all of them if you choose, make sure they are bench bled before installing. The oil in the lifter is what is preventing you from pushing the internal cup down, that is ok. Put a straight edge on the bottom of lifters, make sure there is no " cupping" or pitting.

Max: Thanks.... these are roller lifters, so I assume no check for cupping applies?

Also, what is "bench bled"? Does that refer to somehow filling the new lifters with oil before installing them?

I have gone ahead and ordered 12 new Sealed Power lifters.... still not sure I should replace them all....

Thanks, again....

Yeah forgot they where rollers, look for brinelling or dents/ uneveness on the rollers, The lifter should be immersed in oil and the plunger pumped up and down a couple of times to expel air and fill the lifter with oil. For what it is worth, Fram filters have one of the worst independent test ratings, AC or Purolator Pure One, Wix premium, Napa Gold, are some of the best.

I have decided to replace all the lifters so I will make sure to bench bleed them.

Thanks for the info on the Fram filters, I will stop using them. Someone else had mentioned this recently to me.

I am planning to replace also the thermostat, spark plugs, plug wires, drive belt, and belt tensioner.... Can you think of any thing else I should do while I have it apart?

I have already flushed the coolant and will do that again when I reassemble everything. I had lots of clotted Dexcool in the expansion tank, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence of that in the engine...

I do not think my lower intake gasket had failed yet, but I assume it was a matter of time... there was some minor exterior oil seepage along the manifold seam on the front and rear of the engine.

Thanks again!

Had the same grief with "deathcool" and the expansion tank as well. Changed over to the prestone replacement back then and no problems since (touching lotsa wood here!).
I would inspect & consider a new water pump. You will notice it is a 2-piece design and the replacement pump is a redesigned high-flow model. I would rather be at the dentist than replacing a cracked housing. Now that you've got her apart, imagine how much fun it would be to deal with that once assembled...in my case it was a minor leak because the flimsy gasket blew out on the bottom between the actual pump and its housing. And it was flimsy: I've seen thicker masking tape.
Good luck!

Well, it's all done. I did find a collapsed lifter in the engine and replaced all twelve. I figure that if it got damage because of using the 20W50 oil, then the others might have been hurt also. I could not bear the thought of putting it all back together only to have another lifter fail.

I went with the Felpro gasket set, the more expensive one (about $75). I had also ordred the Dorman kit ($40) and I was able to compare the two. It looks like the Dorman was the OEM gasket set, and it included new bolts. It included the upper intake gaskets also, but no valve cover gaskets.

The Felpro lower intake gasket was obviously a better gasket, it uses a metal carrier and the sealing areas are thicker, and have more ribs than the Dorman (OEM) gasket. I guess I went overboard, but I used the upper, and lower intake gaskets and valve cover gaskets from the Felpro set, and used the new bolts and the EGR gasket from the Dorman kit.

I never found that I had any evidence of the oil / coolant leak, but my job was prompted by the bad lifter, and so I ended up doing the intake job before I was actually forced to by a leak.

At least I can stop worrying now about when my will start leaking....

Got a few new tools, and a major backache out of the experience too!

...and oh yeah, only 5W30 oil for me from now on!