Evo vs. STi

This is a bit of a long read but you won't be dissapointed...

After beating my buddy's modded E46 M3 pretty handily, I've been waiting to have some fun with a modded STi for a while now. Well it finally happened about an hour ago on my way back from the grocery store. Which, by the way, is absolute hell on the eve of Thanksgiving if you're thinking about picking up some last minute things.

It was an '06 STi (err should I say "STI" now). I could tell by the Alfa Romeo-ish horse collar on the front grill. The scoobie was white and so was the driver. Probably mid to late 20's. It was definately modified. I could hear that boxer rumble from almost a block back as I made my way through traffic to catch up. I was driving pretty conservatively, not wanting to tip my hand. It's hard to do with a test pipe. When I got behind him at a stop sign I saw him look in the rear view. When it was his turn he took off like crazy. My Evo owning ass has no problem admitting that it was an awesome assortment of sights, sounds and smells to behold. That thing scooted to the chorus of some nasty mean sounding engine snarls. I also saw a huge spark come out of the tail pipe when he shifted to 2nd. At that point I knew he would be down for a little run. The consequences for running catless in CA are severe, so you have to be a little nuts to do it for 8-10whp.

When I pulled up next to him he was all smiles. He said he loved Evos and I quickly said likewise about the STi. I said we should find somewhere to run. He agreed but he beat me to the punch on the mods though...

HIM: "You cammed?"
ME: "Yeah...cammed and tuned with an Evo IX turbo"
HIM: "Oh shit...this might actually be close then. I'm running Accessport stage 2 with a protune"
ME: "What kind of numbers did you put down after the tune"
HIM: "Almost 330whp...what about you?"
ME: "About 290whp. Are you running a high octane map?"
HIM: "Nope...my maps are all for pump"

He said to follow him and off we went. Immediately he's on the cell phone calling God knows who. I was worried he was trying to gather an audience. I don't mind losing in front of a few people but nothing attracts a crowd like a crowd. And nothing attracts snitches and cops like a crowd. Fortunately when we pulled up to this little frontage road nobody was there. It stayed that way...thank God.

The dude was cool and all but initially he was really cocky. He wanted to do the first run from a dig but kept asking me sorta condascendingly if my clutch was OK because he had "heard all about" Evo clutches. I told him I've got 35k miles on the stocker. Let's do it. I wanted to ask him if his ECU woke up on the wrong or right side of the bed because I'd "heard all about" how they have their PMS days...but I bit my tongue.

The road we were on is basically a frontage road dividing the freeway and miles of undeveloped land, so nobody was gonna sneak up on us or get in our way. The first run was from a stop. He counted down...honk...honk..honk. He rushed the 3rd honk and sorta caught me off gaurd. I bogged the launch real bad and he was off. I let up and right away he hit the brakes and came back. Before I said anything he apologized for jumping the 3rd honk. He said he was more worried about getting, and keeping, 2 hands on the steering wheel. LOL. The next time was better. I got the revs and the boost up and put a car length on him out of the hole. He paced me until about 70mph and then I began pulling through 3rd and into 4th before I shut down at about 110mph with a 3+ CL advantage. To the smell of burning clutch, we agreed to do one more from a stand still. He asked me to honk down this time. I didn't bog the launch, but I got out of the gates a little later and a little slower than he did. Through 1st gear my ear was right in his tailpipe but by the top of 2nd I'd pulled even and, just as before, once I shifted to 3rd that same gradual pull took over. I think he was a little frustrated because he went all the way to 130mph+ before finally letting off. I had that bad launch but I kept the same 3+ CL margin of victory because of how far we went. We pulled back to "the staging area" and he said he needed a smoke with a dejected look. With his turbo timer on he jumped out of the car shaking his head. I let my car idle for a few minutes and then I jumped out and we talked. He became pretty gracious which was cool. He outright said "your Evo pulls harder down low and MUCH harder up top". Then he wanted to know how he lost to a car with 40whp less than him so we talked about dynos for a few minutes. I think we both learned something tonight. Then my cell phone barked at me. My wife wanted to know where her dried terragon was. That was my night. Back to reality. Happy Thanksgiving everybody. Three...count em 3...football games on tomorrow! :iceslolan

haha... nice one.

Happy T-day.

HAHAHAH, that was appointing( wtf is the non negative of disappointing:dunno: )

that was a pretty badass race, two of my favorite 4 doors going at it :thumbsup:




happy thanksgiving everyone, dont get stuffed too much, gotta go shopping on friday.

Very nice! Definately was not disappointed. Congrats on a nice kill.

Then he wanted to know how he lost to a car with 40whp less than him so we talked about dynos for a few minutes.

Same way I loose to them.
Thier Evos!
have you taken it to the track yet? it sounds like you tuned her damn right.

wow nice race. That woulda been some classic fun.

The dyno figures must be pretty off. I can't wait to see what ur car runs on the 1/4!

I haven't taken it to the track yet. It wasn't supposed to be my daily driver this long. I was about to pull the trigger on a Honda Fit then I accepted a job with less driving so I'm sorta in limbo right now. After the first of the year I may pick up an FX35 for my wife and just carpool to work.

The dyno thing is sorta funny. Here in NorCal, for some reason, most of the Evo tuners run extremely conservative Mustang dynos. Whereas most '05 Evos put down between 240whp and 250whp on a Dynojet, around here the stockers usually end up between 215whp and 225whp on a Mustang. Just to give you a frame of reference, nobody cracks 300whp on the EIP or Gruppe-S dyno unless they're running race gas or a big turbo. My 290whp/300wtq would probably be more like 330whp/350wtq on the same dyno the STi guy used for tuning. He said it was somewhere in Vegas. Can't remember the shop. When people fall in love with dyno numbers it can be hazardous to your health. It's a tool meant for measuring increases/decreases in performance. Nothing more. Nothing less.

I've got a friend with stage 2 on his STI and some of the things you say don't make any sense, in fact I tempted to believe the guy was more a poser than anything.

If he was running a turbo timer, he's not running the factory turbo which means he's actually stage 3.
Also, stage 2 with a pro-tune should be in the 360hp range. Stage 1 gets you into the 330hp range.

So, either you're making some things up to give yourself some extra cred or the guy was full of shit and led you a story.

I don't doubt you could beat him, but I know enough about modding Subies to know that if he had the mods you're claiming, it should have been a lot more than a little close.

Wow good kill. Those modified STI's are no joke. I've heard, and seen, that STI's are better to get outta the hole. I believe it's due to their larger engine, and better clutch. Saw some dude cutting 1.6 sec. 60' times in his mildly modified STi. They tend to fall on their face up top for some reason though.

Anyways, happy you had fun.

Nice races. :thumbsup:

The numbers just don't jive on those EVO's. They are faster than what you would think they were by just looking at their numbers on paper.

I've got a friend with stage 2 on his STI and some of the things you say don't make any sense, in fact I tempted to believe the guy was more a poser than anything.

If he was running a turbo timer, he's not running the factory turbo which means he's actually stage 3.
Also, stage 2 with a pro-tune should be in the 360hp range. Stage 1 gets you into the 330hp range.

So, either you're making some things up to give yourself some extra cred or the guy was full of shit and led you a story.

I don't doubt you could beat him, but I know enough about modding Subies to know that if he had the mods you're claiming, it should have been a lot more than a little close.

Why would he not be able to have a turbo timer with the stock turbo?

All a turbo timer does is hook up to the ignition and keep the car running when you take the keys out.

Why would he not be able to have a turbo timer with the stock turbo?

All a turbo timer does is hook up to the ignition and keep the car running when you take the keys out.
having a turbo timer on a subie is like giving a fat kid another cake - sure he'd enjoy it, but it doesn't help in any way :icon16:

basically, the stock turbo on all subies cools itself fine without the need for a turbo timer. around subie circles, turbo timer=rice cos no need for them unless u go aftermarket turbo...and even then it depends which one.

but yes steiner, totally agreew with you about ppl falling in love with their dyno numbers....but sometimes the numbers are just so cool :p:icon16:

Why would he not be able to have a turbo timer with the stock turbo?

All a turbo timer does is hook up to the ignition and keep the car running when you take the keys out.


The stock turbo in all Subaru vehicles is watercooled, this helps maintain a stable temperature in the turbo at all times, even when spirited driving.

The whole point of a turbo timer is to keep the car running at low revs to allow the turbo time to cool off in a stable manner. If you drive the car hard and simply turn off the engine, the turbo can cool unevenly and being a casting, it can result in cracks in the housing. A water cooled turbo cools off at a more stable rate than a non-cooled turbo due to the fact that the water, due to temperature variations throughout the cooling system, will continue to flow through the turbo for an extended time and ensure a gradual and controlled cool off.

Subaru actually warn against adding a turbo timer to the stock turbo as it's a purely redundant system on a water cooled turbo.

Further to RL's comment about only needing a turbo timer on aftermarket turbos on a Subaru, not even all after market turbo's need a timer as not all of them are non-cooled. In fact, there are plenty of water cooled after market turbos on the market that will bolt up to the Impreza.
Many after market tuning houses that specialise in Imprezas are even recommending the water cooled systems since the car is already set up for it.

Believe it or not, Subaru even issued a bulletin about the matter:
http://www.subaruwest.com/PDF_files/Tech_PDF_Folder/june_2001_techtips.pdf

Further to RL's comment about only needing a turbo timer on aftermarket turbos on a Subaru, not even all after market turbo's need a timer as not all of them are non-cooled.

Hey Ray::licka:

no need for them unless u go aftermarket turbo...and even then it depends which one

:p

Hey Ray::licka:



:p

After I reread both I posts I realised you had said that :)

There's no argument though, if two Scooby folk from the opposite side of the world say the same thing, it must be true ;)

After I reread both I posts I realised you had said that :)



hahaha, yeah i was just kidding around mate.

There's no argument though, if two Scooby folk from the opposite side of the world say the same thing, it must be true ;)

yup!:icon16:

Why would he not be able to have a turbo timer with the stock turbo?

All a turbo timer does is hook up to the ignition and keep the car running when you take the keys out.


That’s not how the turbo timer in my 951 works. My car came stock with a turbo timer and what it does is run a little pump that goes to the turbo, not the whole car. Plus I think my turbo is also water cooled. And from what the guys say on rennlist.com not having a turbo timer severely shortens the life of your turbo water cooled or not. However my car is much older then your guys so I don’t know if the set up on the STI is different. I imagine the STI is much more advanced so maybe. All I know is my car is at 96K and the turbo runs like a champ so Porsche did something right.

I've got a friend with stage 2 on his STI and some of the things you say don't make any sense, in fact I tempted to believe the guy was more a poser than anything.

If he was running a turbo timer, he's not running the factory turbo which means he's actually stage 3.
Also, stage 2 with a pro-tune should be in the 360hp range. Stage 1 gets you into the 330hp range.

So, either you're making some things up to give yourself some extra cred or the guy was full of shit and led you a story.

I don't doubt you could beat him, but I know enough about modding Subies to know that if he had the mods you're claiming, it should have been a lot more than a little close.OK fair enough. I'm not making things up though. What I initially posted was, as best as I can remember, all of the things the guy told me. The turbo timer was there. That much I'm sure of. As far as the flash, he definately said it was a 91 octane, stage 2 map and he had Cobb Accessport. He also told me he was getting boost creep before the tune because he wasn't running a cat. He had an aftermarket downpipe (no cats) and one of those angled exit JDM cat-back exhausts. I think that was it for hardware modifications. He was a little cocky but he didn't strike me as a bullshitter. He seemed to know what he was talking about. The only thing he said that made me do a double take was when he asked how much boost I was running. When I told him 22lbs he said "cool...me too". I know that's impossible on the stocker - or at least well out of the efficiency range if it's possible. Other than that he seemed to have a pretty good idea of what was going on under his hood.

STi's are a bitch to mod. Still I know two STi owners that have pluged Turbo timers to thier stock turbos. I know of one who added a BOV to the stock ar which is also an really stupid thing to do on an STi and I know one kid at the nearby University who put his 05 STi on airbags. YES, AIRBAGS!

so yeah there are a few ricer STi owners out there.

STi's are a bitch to mod. Still I know two STi owners that have pluged Turbo timers to thier stock turbos. I know of one who added a BOV to the stock ar which is also an really stupid thing to do on an STi and I know one kid at the nearby University who put his 05 STi on airbags. YES, AIRBAGS!

so yeah there are a few ricer STi owners out there.

Yep, the whole BOV stupidity, another unecessary mod on an STI.

Unfortunately, there is that small group out there who simply mod their cars with absolutely NO understanding of what they're doing or why. :disappoin

22lbs of boost on stock STI internals will destroy the internals pretty quickly.

If everything Steiner is saying this guy claimed, the kids a poser and Steiner needs to hand him his ass on a daily basis. :grinyes:

enlighten me why is a BOV stupid on an STI?

Airbags are retarded whats the point in buying a car that has that much grip and great suspension and fitting airbags .......... :banghead:

enlighten me why is a BOV stupid on an STI?

Airbags are retarded whats the point in buying a car that has that much grip and great suspension and fitting airbags .......... :banghead:

You're not paying attention. Nobody said a BOV is stupid, the car comes with a stock BOV, the stupidity is replacing the stock BOV.

It's pretty evident around AF that not many folks outside the 10 or 12 Subaru enthusiasts on here actually know much about modding Impreza's.

Finding somebody on AF who knows anything about Subaru's is like looking for a Unicorn...

Finding somebody on AF who knows anything about Subaru's is like looking for a Unicorn...

Are you call Keita, Jason_L, RL and a few others including myself a unicorn?

enlighten me why is a BOV stupid on an STI?
I think he means a VTA BOV is bad. It's a bad idea on any MAF equipped vehicle.

Are you call Keita, Jason_L, RL and a few others including myself a unicorn?


Yes, you're pretty to look at. :grinno:

Yes, you're pretty to look at. :grinno:

I knew u loved us :smooch:

You're not paying attention. Nobody said a BOV is stupid, the car comes with a stock BOV, the stupidity is replacing the stock BOV.

It's pretty evident around AF that not many folks outside the 10 or 12 Subaru enthusiasts on here actually know much about modding Impreza's.


Yep, the whole BOV stupidity, another unecessary mod on an STI.

Thats a bit of a harsh reaction to a question .

OK let me rephrase the question ... whats the problem in replacing the BOV?

Thats a bit of a harsh reaction to a question .

OK let me rephrase the question ... whats the problem in replacing the BOV?

if u get one which recirculates it in the same way the factory one does, then no problems.

if u atmosphere vent, the car runs rich. cos in the system, the air sensor is placed in such a place that if u vent the compressed air through the BOV, the system doesn't realise the air is gone and it will cause the car to run rich.

And yet, even a recirc system can be bad if you don't tune the car after replacing it.

Basically, if you're not changing anything else in the system, the BOV should be left alone.

are the 06 STi's still running on the VF39's like the 03's? because those stock turbos are so tiny.

most people here on the east coast can barely squeeze 300whp out of their stock turbo. so i was kinda questioning how can a stock turbo STi make 330whp? he must be running over 20 psi.

considering how most subaru guys here run's a 20G upgrade to even hit 330whp on 18 psi, i thought wow this guy makes the same power as a 20G with his stock turbo.

yup its a VF39.. i believe i read some were they are good for like 340whp max.

but its hard to hit that..

Mod for mod, the evo gets more power hands down.

Mod for mod, the evo gets more power hands down.

i wouldn't agree with that.

basic mods up to a certain point, no way u can make a statement like that.

but for outright power, evo wins hands down.

but that's only because the Evo came to the USDM in a good condition, whereas the STi came as a little pussy version that no where near resembles what it is in the JDM

i wouldn't agree with that.

basic mods up to a certain point, no way u can make a statement like that.

but for outright power, evo wins hands down.

but that's only because the Evo came to the USDM in a good condition, whereas the STi came as a little pussy version that no where near resembles what it is in the JDM

That's the same with the Evo, the USDM Evo is nothing compared to the JDM Evo. For basic mods like flash, tbe, headers, etc the evo makes more hp.

That's the same with the Evo, the USDM Evo is nothing compared to the JDM Evo. For basic mods like flash, tbe, headers, etc the evo makes more hp.
no non-JDM car compares to a JDM version. However, the STi had a pretty big change. Especially with the USDM version. Did u know the JDM version is a 2L forged piston VF34 turboed, whereas the USDM is 2.5L cast piston VF39 (? smaller regardless). To me, that's two different cars.

And I don't agree that a flash tbe and headers on an Evo gives u significant enough gains on an evo vs STi for u to be able to rule out temp, altitutude, dyno differences. They're pretty much the same amount of gains for both - the evo will be slightly more if you had to pick a difference. but u can't make a comment like: mod for mod hands down the evo wins. it's only true after a certain point. Mainly cos the cast pistons in the 2.5L STi limit the strength of the engine.

damn right liRrr, can you send me over a JDM STI, id love to have one the way you're describing it

There's another big difference between the USDM STi and the JDM/EDM STi besides the engine displacement. The USDM STi's EJ25 engine does not have a closed deck. When it comes to BIG power & BIG boost that can be a disadvantage.

That's the same with the Evo, the USDM Evo is nothing compared to the JDM Evo. For basic mods like flash, tbe, headers, etc the evo makes more hp.

I thought turboed cars don't have headers but exhaust side manifolds? Or am I just horribly mistaken? Or am I just playing semantics?

I thought turboed cars don't have headers but exhaust side manifolds? Or am I just horribly mistaken? Or am I just playing semantics?

I think they're similar enough for most ppl to know what ur talking about if u just call them headers. I've heard the term "turbo headers" used here and there. Dunno how techinically correct that is though.

Thats what I thought.

no non-JDM car compares to a JDM version. However, the STi had a pretty big change. Especially with the USDM version. Did u know the JDM version is a 2L forged piston VF34 turboed, whereas the USDM is 2.5L cast piston VF39 (? smaller regardless). To me, that's two different cars.

And I don't agree that a flash tbe and headers on an Evo gives u significant enough gains on an evo vs STi for u to be able to rule out temp, altitutude, dyno differences. They're pretty much the same amount of gains for both - the evo will be slightly more if you had to pick a difference. but u can't make a comment like: mod for mod hands down the evo wins. it's only true after a certain point. Mainly cos the cast pistons in the 2.5L STi limit the strength of the engine.


Hmm I was wondering about that. My friend is buying a used WRX soon but hes not sure which one yet. Do the older WRX's with the 2.0 engine have forged internals?

I believe the EJ20 in the USDM WRX has the same shortfalls as the EJ25 in the STi.

I believe the EJ20 in the USDM WRX has the same shortfalls as the EJ25 in the STi.


Damn that sucks. Its like they cut the WRX's balls off:disappoin

That's because now we have a frame of reference. At the time (1999) it was Camaros and Mustangs if you wanted affordable power. The WRX blew up and look what it gave other manufacturers the confidence to bring to market...the Evo, STi, SRT-4, Mazdaspeed Protege, etc, etc. I think the WRX started it all even though I consider myself a "Lancer" guy instead of an "Impreza" guy.

Hmm I was wondering about that. My friend is buying a used WRX soon but hes not sure which one yet. Do the older WRX's with the 2.0 engine have forged internals?

As Steiner said, no.

The 2L WRX engines and 2L STi engines are very different.

I would say the 2.5L WRX engine is better than the 2L WRX engine; but i'd need some real convincing to agree that the 2.5L STi engine is better than the 2L STi engine.