The Flight of the PHOENIX !

Decided to start a new thread leaving off from
"NOT the end of my '93 metro...Life after death! RINGS".

That thread is incredible!

As of this moment (11:36 AM PST 18 November 2006) it has 9,921 Views and
631 Replies. Holy Makeral!

I replaced the Spark Coil with the one I originally had and put back the original
Distributor.

I timed the engine (hot with the timing shorted at the diagnostic plug) to 5° BTDC.

Removed the shorting wire, checked everything again, and went for a drive!

What a sweet little car!

It has all kinds of power, althought I didn't push it hard - I wanted to though!

It drove 12.6 miles without any problem for 33 non-stop minutes. Never heated
up past it's normal place on the Temperature Gauge....
Idled very nicely - not one cough or putt putt.

I filled the tires to 32 psi - all were low after setting for essentially a year!

I will either make or have painted on her "The Phoenix" since she rose
out of the ashes to live again!

DoctorBill

PS - The first thing I'll do is top up the gas tank and see what mpg's I get on the "first tank" of the new era...

List of Important things to Consider in Repairing Metros.

1. Buy a Compression Tester and use it!

.....If you are able to pick your nose, you can use a compression tester!
.....If the cylinder pressure is low, fix the Head and/or rings before wasting any more money.

2. If you replace the MAP Sensor, obtain a replacement with exactly the same part number!

3. Replace the PVC Valve every 30,000 miles or so....they are cheap ($5 or less) and are important
to controlling the fuel/air mixture.

To be added to as required....check back here from time to time.

DoctorBill

don't be to supprised if the first tank of gas doesn't get the best mileage. till the rings break in motor will have a little more drag.

DrBill, Check on the tires to see what the recommended tire pressure is. I recently was surprised to find that the 12" tire should be at 44 psi. I always maintained them at around 32 psi but it's written right on the side of the tire... 44 lbs! The car responded better at the higher pressure.

Just to get in The Phoenix and drive it, I went into town this afternoon.

What a nice car....so nice to drive that Metro after my Truck Clutch, 23 mpg
Jeep Cherokee....

I topped off the tank and recorded the mileage. It has so much power!

It was hard not to 'punch it' to feel what it could do! I'm accelerating slowly and
keeping at 50 to 55 mph like some old man or an Illegal Mexican.

I spent many years in Southern California - the illegals drive really slowly in order
to not be stopped and found out - Ha! The Highway Patrol knows.....

Anyway, I felt like some old duffer driving so carefully...normally I drive the
Geo like a sports car - fast turns and punch it! Downshift, punch it!

So I put 60 miles on The Phoenix (from now on its "THE PHOENIX") and it just
runs and runs...sweet!

I will change the oil and filter at 100 miles.

Have to put the Idle Adjust Solenoid and the Bi-Metal VSV back on and hook
up the Charcoal Canister (which I haven't removed and cleaned out yet).

I bought a can of DOW CORNING "Great Stuff" foam sealant for sealing cracks
in houses (doors & windows).

When I was trying to take out the gas tank, if you'll remember, I ripped out that
foam rubber plate in the middle of the floor under the back seat thinking
there was a panel under it (dumb).

So now, the seat is still up and I will foam over that whole area to kill road
noise, then put the seat back in - clean up and The Phoenix should be quite
ready to go.

I RAINEX'ed the windows and vacuumed out all those damned Pine Needles that
had gotten into everything.

The perverse way fate sometimes is, I am very watchful now that some Butt
Head doesn't hit me and destroy the car.

Sure enough, some old guy nearly did that today! Did a U-Turn in front of me
after pulling over to the right like he was going to park!

I have only Liability Insurance on it. Plus Comprehensive for all the Deer out
here - hundreds of the dufus creatures get hit on these country roads!
150 lbs of meat & bone jump out in front of you while you are going 55 mph.

My biggest fear right now....I have two deer whistles on it - might put on another two!

My Green Arrow comes on a lot indicating that I should shift up.
That is because I have good vacuum - no?

I sure would like to have a Tachometer to know what the rpms are!

BTW - how long before I can expect the rings to be 'worn in' ? Was thinking
of doing a compression test, but will wait if it is too early yet.

I do want to take the plugs out tomorrow and see if the black soot is gone....

DoctorBill

PS - frets14 - I will check the tires tomorrow also - but it drives so rough with
high tire pressure!

Crvett69 - even just 40 mpg would be a huge improvement over the Jeep at 23 mpg...

look on e-bay and teamswift. a dash cluster from a LSi with tach or a convertible will fit in yours and the tach wiring is already there. just make sure its not a GT dash because then the rpms will read wrong. when breaking it in its supposed to be good not to drive it at same speed for a long time. i usually change the oil between 500-700 miles on rebuilt engines, 100 seems like quite soon. and you don't have to baby the engine, just don't floor it and run it up to 7000 rpm

DrBill, Check on the tires to see what the recommended tire pressure is. I recently was surprised to find that the 12" tire should be at 44 psi. I always maintained them at around 32 psi but it's written right on the side of the tire... 44 lbs! The car responded better at the higher pressure.
44 psi indicated on the tire is the maximum for the tire, not for the vehicle. Always use the pressure recommended in the door placqard and the owners manual. At 44 psi you'r likely to wear out the middle of the tire due to overinflation.

Just turned over 100 miles on The Phoenix.

The gas gauge just moved off of the Full Mark...!

Still sweet as cream! Smeeooth running.

Knock on wood.....

I'll wait till maybe 200-300 miles and change the oil.

I will leave the tires at 32 psi.

Is there any really, really good reason to put the Idle Adjust Solenoid or the
BiMetal VSV back on the engine?

W/o either the engine starts fine, idles fine and runs fine....

Was all that stuff just "over engineering" or was it some Environmental Activist thing ?

I need to drive my daughter to work, so after the engine cools a bit, I'll have a peek at
the condition of the plugs.

DoctorBill

iac valve is there to give it a higher idle when it is cold and to keep it from dying if you come to a quick stop. glad to hear its running good. i have put several of the tach dashes in the metros and its a lot nicer, the tach dashes also have a trip odometer

I took out the plugs and photographed them at 100 miles elapsed distance
since I got The Phoenix running with the repalcement MAP from Crvett69.

http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/4565/plugs100milesah8.jpg

They look Damned Good to me!

Here she is....

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/236/thephoenixms2.jpg

Have to get that left rear Hub Cap back on....

Ya - maybe I'll look into a "Tach Dashboard" once Winter is over.

What would be nice would be a Vertical LED Tachometer like I drew up below
on PhotoShop just now....
I think I have seen such Tach's.
I have also seen schematics for such things in Radio Shack Project Books.

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/6619/ledtachometerjr8.jpg

I am so Damned glad I got this running before Winter really hit!
The heater works really nice.

DoctorBill

Hey doc,

I literally slapped my desk at work when I read it was running. Probably got some managers attention, but oh well. Consider it a virtual high five and congratulations. I am tempted to send you a free set of white face guage overlays with a Phoenix on them for all your hard work and documentation. You would have to have the tach cluster for the overlay to work. You might PM me if you decide to buy a cluster, just bear in mind that only 3 cylinder clusters will work in your car. A cluster from a 4 cylinder car would take some modification to make it work (requires soldering in some different resistors, the procedure is available on Team Swift).

My suggestion would be ----- If the connector has changed on a sensor, it probably indicates a physical change in the operation of the unit and cannot be altered to work with a different system.

ROLL ON DOC!!! :cheers:

44 psi indicated on the tire is the maximum for the tire, not for the vehicle. Always use the pressure recommended in the door placqard and the owners manual. At 44 psi you'r likely to wear out the middle of the tire due to over inflation.

sbiddle, you and many others believe that your advice is based on accurate information. Many years ago there was a lot more truth to what you write than there is today. This is the same advice that so many owners of Ford Explorers followed before their roll-over accident. The door stickers cost Ford and Firestone plenty. Survivors did not return to buy new Fords with their settlements. Give some thought to where and when you learned what you know about tires.

Tire specialists whom know the most up-to-date info about their tires recommend very close to maximum inflation, and above all, maintain tire pressure.

Modern tires built during the past 20-30 years are designed to maintain their figure over as wide of a load range and various inflation as possible. Tires that are aired to the max inflation are not over-inflated regardless of the weight of the vehicle. As DoctorBill reports, max-inflated tires do ride a bit more like rocks. The reason why manufactures put stickers with lower pressure recommendations on the body is to improve ride comfort.

Tire manufactures have three objectives, safety, operating cost, and ride quality. Too much focus and priority given to any single objective adversely affects the other two.

Over-inflation may more likely cause excessive abnormal wear at the edges of the tread because construction of the belts does not allow the tire to bulge in the center like tires used to wear years ago. Imagine a belt cinched around the center of the tread that will not let the tire bulge.

In many (if not most) cases new cars that weigh half as much as early 70's vehicles come with tires that are twice as wide and max inflation has increased from 28-32lbs to 44lbs and will likely continue to increase in the future. The tire pressure stickers are information about the tires that came on the car when it was new. Teenager's like DoctorBill's Metro are full of information that may not be reliable. Following recommendations on a 14yr old sticker is not as accurate as following the recommendation on the tire.

Another concern regardless of the amount of tread remaining, is how many birthdays a tire has had. If a tire is old enough to go to school, it is time to replace it.

frets14 is correct, tires aired to the max inflation on the sidewall will perform better, provide optimum fuel economy and tread life.

The 12 inch tires on The Phoenix right now are JUPITER tires made in Korea
bought from Discount Tire in Spokane.

It says the max load is 908 lbs with max pressure of 36 PSI.

So you are saying I should inflate these babies to 36 psig...?

Now that The Phoenix is running, what will I do for my daily AutoMotiveForum Fix?

DoctorBill

PS - MMM I am thinking about cutting a stencil out of poster board and spray
painting THE PHOENIX on the side of the car with Yellow Auto Paint (Spray Can).

Now that The Phoenix is running, what will I do for my daily AutoMotiveForum Fix?

My thoughts exactly.

Speaking of your tires specifically, maintaining 32psi should be fine especially when it is so cold that your tires have the same cushion as those on Fred F's car. I aired tires on every car I worked on. Usually found them inflated to 20-22 psi, sometimes even 12psi. In those cases I always aired to the max inflation on the sidewall. Owners occasionally mentioned that their car drove so much nicer after I worked on it, how could whatever unrelated repair have effected the way the car drove. Many did not ever ask. You can bet if they thought it drove worse, they would have let me know.

What I am saying is that tires are continuing to change as they are improved even during the past five years. Look at the difference from 1965 compared to 2005. When did anyone last see a tire worn abnormally in the center of the tread?

What you should do next time you visit Costco is grab a brochure from the tire center that explains the advantages of filling tires with nitrogen. My tires are over a year old and have not lost a lb yet.

"...the advantages of filling tires with nitrogen."

I have always looked upon that Nitrogen thing as just a sales gimmick.

Why not use Carbon Dioxide ? Carbon Dioxide (CO2) is much cheaper that Nitrogen.
Or maybe Methane, Butane or Propane even.... How about Kypton or Xenon - one of the
Noble Gases?

Has there ever been any unbiased, scientific studies done to prove that Nitrogen
in tires extends road life, tire strength over time, etc?

Does the 20% Oxygen in Air attack the lining of the tires - some chemical proof would
be required - like studies with Oxygen Isotopes - Electron Microscope views of the
tire's inside lining after a few years of Air usage.

You know - an awful lot of "Scientific Conclusions" are not.....

Like the guy who first found Dinosaur Bones who said that Dinosaurs were
big lumbering cold blooded, slow, dimwitted creatures.

He just said it! It has been 100 or more years and has taken a lot of work to
refute what that meatbrain said. His words were taken as fact for 60
years or more - w/o doubt people thought it made sense!

The craters on the moon were obviously due to volcanic action!

It is obvious to any fool that the Earth is flat! Use your eyes!

Drink 8 glasses of water (Minimum) per day! - No one can find any literature reference
to that absurdity! No one in the Medical Field knows where that goofy statement came from.

But every doctor and nutritionist repeats it like a robot!

Anyway - I won't walk across the street to get Nitrogen in my tires....waste of
time.

Unless I can see some hard evidence to the contrary. In the scientific or
Corporate Literature. Just like what you espouse about the car manufacturers
recommending in print versus the opinions found here by various folks who
swear to God what they heard or do is the Truth!

Don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to be a Wisenhiemer smartass.

Being a Chemist, I want some good studies done with large amounts of
evidence.

I am going to COSTCO today - I'll pick up their brochure on the benefits of
Nitrogen and report back..... Maybe I am wrong.

DoctorBill

Congratulations on bringing THE PHOENIX back from the ashes! No doubt it will pay you back many times over.

As previously mentioned what will we do now for a daily AF fix?

After providing you with the name Phoneix, I am glad that she arose from the ashes. Mine is next.

Congratulations DOC!!!!

See, if the MAP sensor was changed before you started any of this, you would have not experienced the wealth of knowledge you have gained over the last few months! I still have to say how much I admire your determination. The "Phoenix" should be running like a new car after all you have done to it!

I hope mine runs as well when I finish putting it back together. (I am pretty sure it will :wink: ). You certainly will probably have a spare part for just about anything under the hood that could go bad.

I agree with change the oil at about 500 miles instead of 100. But that is your choice.

Definitely vary your driving speed. It would be ideal to take it on a highway cruise and vary your speeds 5 MPH (either up or down between 50 & 70 MPH) every 5 minutes.

As for the AutoMotiveFourm fix...it is time to offer your advice to those that request it now!!

Congrats again!!

I am noticing a bit of oil usage - can I expect that until the Rings wear in?

HannabilRox - Yes! Had I obtained the proper MAP Sensor early on, I
would not have known that my valves were burning out until much later....
I might not have decided to have the Head Reworked or to have changed the
Rings myself....might have dumped the car (?)

The roads are curvy and hilly enough and have enough SheizKopf people driving
on them that I have to change gears fairly often. We get FARMERS and CASINO
Gamblers on the one road I have to drive every day.

Farmers...well...enough said. Casino drunks...I worry they will one day kill me.
It is not funny. Idaho is about 10 miles East of where I live and has Indian
Casinos on the border. People go home drunk...lot of weaving and idiot driving.

Mohave - Ya! It was you who suggested Phoenix! Perfect Name!
I was thinking of FRANKENSTEIN with all the parts having been changed, but
I like The Phoenix better.

Why not start another Metro Repair Odyssey on your Metro.....?

idmetro - if The Phoenix gets 45 mpg, I will save about $982 / year if
gasoline stayed at $2.50 / gallon. I estimate I drive around 19,000 mi / yr.

826 gallons using the Jeep @ 23 mpg versus 433 gallons on the Metro @ 45 mpg.

If I get another 150,000 miles out of this Doctored engine (pun), by then I
would expect the clutch to need fixing.

Is it difficult to replace the clutch?

DoctorBill

Some oil usage is normal until the rings "seat" I'd just keep an eye on it and very likely you will see it gradually fade to nothing as the surfaces mate to each other.

Compared to what you've done so far; changing the clutch is just a matter of following a rather straightforward procedure.

I've changed one Metro clutch so far (another one is in the works in the not too distant future) and I would definitely heed Corvette69's advice regarding pulling the engine and transmission as a unit; then changing the clutch outside of the car. I was too stubborn to see the value in this so had to learn for myself. It is possible to change the clutch without removing the transaxle but clearances are very tight and much time, sweat, skin and blood was lost in the process. It would have been far easier (and faster too....) to have pulled them as a unit and changed the clutch with them sitting outside the car. By the way the clutch in my first car went 198k miles; the engine checked out before the clutch did.

"Why not start another Metro Repair Odyssey on your Metro.....?"

I plan to, but I am also planning to add some hybrid technology to the Metro. I was thinking about it and then bought a Honda Hybrid a month ago. I am now sold and think it might be possible to retrofit it to a Metro. It might be the perfect combination.

Being a Chemist, I want some good studies done with large amounts of
evidence.

I am going to COSTCO today - I'll pick up their brochure on the benefits of
Nitrogen and report back..... Maybe I am wrong.

That would be the reason I recommend that you read the brochure, from Michelin I think. There is no charge or sales involved. I knew you would be interested in a little more modern tire technology. Nitrogen generators look like an air compressor which they are. I think the oxygen is simply burned out of the air.

I have known for thirty years that racing tires are filled with nitrogen because it is more stable than oxygen and pressure does not change with temperature which results in consistent performance advantage.

If none of the oxidizing factors were significant, I can tell you from personal experience that nitrogen filled tires could easily go two years or longer without being re-inflated.

On highways, streets, and unpaved alleys, properly inflated tires are safer because of improved handling performance, reduced catastrophic failures, and allow improved fuel mileage. Tires filled with air, leak and require quarterly maintenance. What was your tire pressure after more than a year?

Who are you thinking may fund an independent study to convince you that filling tires with nitrogen is better than filling with air? I see nitrogen as being a required safety standard in the near future before that study occurs.

PS - MMM I am thinking about cutting a stencil out of poster board and spray
painting THE PHOENIX on the side of the car with Yellow Auto Paint (Spray Can).

I can not condone the use of a cardboard stencil on the side of what appears to be a straight, clean paint job.

If you want to put " the phoenix " on the side of your car, then do it right.

Buy some of the blue or green masking tape and make a panel of tape large enough to fit what you want to paint. Do this on a slick surface like a countertop or something similar and slightly overlap strips of the tape.

then use some type of stencil to draw the letters or picture you want to paint and then cut out with an exacto or razor blade.

Wipe down the area you want to paint with rubbing alcohol or something to remove all wax and contaminates and then carefully place your tape panel over the area where you want to paint.

Take some very fine sandpaper and scuff the open areas in your tape stencil and then press the edges of the stencil firmly onto the panel.

pick an area free of dust and such ( a problem, I know) and paint a couple of very light coats, followed by heavier coats until you get a good solid coat.

let it dry for a couple of hours, then carefully peel your stencil off.

Touch up any areas that the paint got under the tape with solvent or very carefully with a razor blade and you're done. Repeat the procedure for the other side, except if your stencil is still in useable shape you can reuse it on the other side.

Are you saying that you don't think Big Block Letters with fuzzy edges makes
a very good way to say The Phoenix !

I was wondering about a store here that sells vinyl Lettering and Signs.

If it doesn't cost an arm and a leg, I might do that - being removable....

The Phoenix is still going strong!


Almost at 200 miles and the gas gauge is only at 3/4 or so...

Showing signs of needing some oil - the dipstick level is a bit below where it
started at. I'll keep it topped up until the oil change.

Have to find 5w-30 somewhere. I'll try Wal-Mart. Costco only sells the
synthetic 5w-30 at $30 a case. Twice what "normal" oil cost there.....

Supposed to get some snow here in a day or two.

I hate putting my studded snow tires on since they are so damned noisy!

And The Phoenix doesn't handle well at all in slush! The front end is too
light! The slush grabs the wheels and I go off in some direction I don't want to go...

DoctorBill

don't run synthetic for at least 1500 miles after rebuilding engine, if rings aren't seated they never will with synthetic oil. same thing with the slick 50 type adatives.

also check out e-bay. type in Phoenix decal. i fould a lot of them on there for cheap, look a lot nicer than a spray can job

I spend a lot of time driving the 70 miles round trip to work each day and even
more driving my daughter to Cheer Leading practice (40 miles RT).

So while I was sitting there with my finger up my nose listening to Laura Ingram
talk about Conservative stuff (or Rush Limbough or Michael Savage), I remembered
what my Boss used to say about simple jobs - "It is so simple. a dog with five
fingers could do it!"

Of course, I was thinking about what I had done to The Phoenix this last Summer and Fall.

Pulling the Head off of the car was child's play....truely - a dog with five fingers
could have done that! And getting it reworked cost me only $130....
add another $80 for the gaskets. Cheap considering the performance reward.

So, I'm thinking, why not do that every 100,000 miles? Just for the grins of it!

Yes? No?

The Phoenix might live forever.....be immortal even!

DoctorBill

If you are working towards making the Phoenix immortal (or at least close to it) why not start looking around for a really cheap engine that has had a valve go south? Then you could keep it protected until you start to notice performance loss in the current engine at which time you could rebuild the spare and then just swap it in. With an engine all ready to go I bet you could be in and out of the "shop" in a weekend.

i usually have several core engines around that if you want to come pick up you can have one. most were runners with a burned valve. i still think its easier to just grab a jdm engine and drop it in though

Well, guys, consider this...

I am almost 64 years old.

I drive maybe 25,000 miles per year - if I am lucky.

150,000 ÷ 25,000 = 6 years.

So, in six years The Phoenix will be needing new valves and maybe new rings.

I will be 70 years old by then.

Do you really think I will want to 'swap any engines' by then?

AND - in six years, do you think The Phoenix will be in any shape to accept
another engine?

That would be like myself having the heart of a 25 year old transplanted into
a 70 year old body. Like some old car with bad Vacuum and pressure hoses, I'd see
some cute babe chick and probably have a down-under EXPLOSION and bleed to
death with my new heart pumping away to the last moment!

No - I think this Valve/Ring Job was the last of its kind in my driveway.....

Now all you young Whipper-Snappers should consider it, though.

DoctorBill

PS - It may snow tomorrow, so I've got to go get the studded snow tires out of the Barn and
change the tires on my wife's '93 4x4 Geo Tracker. I suppose I should do The Phoenix also.
And of course the 4x4 Cherokee, too!. Lord - I'm going to be sore as an old board!

Congratulations, Bill.
Comments:
1. "Phoenix" on the car evokes too much of a really, really bad Pontiac model of the 1980s.
2. N2 in tires always has me wondering why I would want to go find more of this stuff when winter comes & temps drop (ideal gas law) and then jettison a bunch when Spring comes. I'll stick with air.
3. Overinflating (yes, it's overinflation) like JustSayGo recommends: When was the last time I saw a tire worn in the center? This year, after trying to figure out my axle weights of my Sprinter van for the last two years, and realizing I'm very rarely above the unladen weight range. Sprinter gives pressure recommendations for several different ranges of axle weight. If the tire industry and radial technology is so different now from 15 years ago, why would the OEM (in conjunction with the tire mfrs.) make recommendations ranging from 33 psi up to 50 psi depending on weight? Why are placard pressures from the OEMs always still well below the recommended maxima (yes, they are maxima) on the sidewalls from the tire makers? The statement that tires will wear on the edges if overinflated "due to radial belt design" is just flat-out wrong. Read what Tire Rack or Michelin say about any of this; I think they know a thing or two.

All the best.

DOCTORBILL Wrote

PS - It may snow tomorrow, so I've got to go get the studded snow tires out of the Barn and
change the tires on my wife's '93 4x4 Geo Tracker. I suppose I should do The Phoenix also.
And of course the 4x4 Cherokee, too!. Lord - I'm going to be sore as an old board!


Time to get an air compressor and some air tools DOC! Put that on your Xmas list! :naughty:

Well, guys, consider this...


So, in six years The Phoenix will be needing new valves and maybe new rings.

I will be 70 years old by then.

Do you really think I will want to 'swap any engines' by then?

AND - in six years, do you think The Phoenix will be in any shape to accept
another engine?


DOC;

I'll have to leave the increased pressure from a "younger heart" question unanswered but I do think that in 6 years the Phoenix will probably still be a good candidate for another engine. Time will take it's toll on the paint job but you could get that redone if you wanted, install a "new" engine and still come out way ahead of what a replacement vehicle would set you back.

As to you wanting to swap engines who's to say? Maybe, maybe not. But at 70 I bet you could put your accumulated wisdom to work and make a trade for someone else to swap the engine....

HannabilRox - I do have an Air Compressor and the requisite Air Tools!

Best Damned investment I ever made!

However, I have four cars.

I bought wheels for each one and then the Studded Snow Tires for each.

I keep them in my Barn which is 50 feet away down hill about 10 feet.

All those tires need lugging up the hill from the Barn, the cars jacked up, usually
in crap weather, the wheels changed (off and on), the street tires lugged back
to the Barn and stacked up.

How will an Air Hammer lug tightener help all that much?

No...plain old elbow grease. Old elbow grease....

I just did my wife's Tracker and the "toy tires" on my Metro....(12 inchers look
and feel like kiddie car toy tires after having a Suburban with 16.5 inch
monsters!)

DoctorBill

PS - buying an extra set of wheels for $100 easily pays for itself in one year
if you factor in the cost of having snow tires mounted and balanced, taken off
in Spring and the street tires put back on and balanced....You can change them
on your driveway in 20 minutes and not have to sit around the tire shop for hours!

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/5070/finparkinglightcj8.jpg

Some dirty, rotton, miscreant, slimy, wretched, butt-wipe scoundrel backed into
The Phoenix and broke my right front signal light !

And ran away! Hit and run! Probably at Wal-Mart.....

Now I know why I grabbed several of these (and other goodies) at the local
Pull-n-Save yard!

Now how do I get the old one out...?

Happy Thanksgiving all!

Don't over-do the turkey and mashed potatoes like me!

Pain..... Passing out on the couch afterwards.... Doing it over again in the evening....

DoctorBill

if you open hood and look next to headlight you will see a phillip screw. take it out and pull the light straight forward. if you look at the spare you got will see where the screw goes. there is also one on side of the light, you can see the hole in the picture. just look at the one you have out. somrry some bumped the car

if you open hood and look next to headlight you will see a phillip screw. take it out and pull the light straight forward. if you look at the spare you got will see where the screw goes. there is also one on side of the light, you can see the hole in the picture. just look at the one you have out. somrry some bumped the car

I want to have a go at the Charcoal Canister (CC) before I re-install any of the
Vacuum Operated devices such as the Idle Adjust Solenoid or the Bi-Metal VSV.

Someone said the CC just lifts out and off of the Firewall.

Once out, can I open it w/o destroying it?

Can I replace the Charcoal (Aquarium Charcoal? - you can buy Boxes of it)?

No sense hooking up Vacuum devices that go thru the CC w/o rebuilding the CC...

After that, what order should I replace those Vacuum Devices in (one at a time)?

DoctorBill

Once out, can I open it w/o destroying it?

Can I replace the Charcoal (Aquarium Charcoal? - you can buy Boxes of it)?

No sense hooking up Vacuum devices that go thru the CC w/o rebuilding the CC...

Is there something wrong with your charcoal canister?

Which devices are you thinking go through the CC?

I have never heard of anyone trying to rebuild a charcoal canister. Seems like anything built can be rebuilt, but quite often repair is not the efficient correction.

You can cut the plastic and glue it back together. Why would you replace the charcoal? How will you repair, rebuild, or extend the life of the purge valve?

I think you will be performing a charcoal canister autopsy.

"I have never heard of anyone trying to rebuild a charcoal canister."

Have you ever heard of anyone like me, JSG...?

I have magic fingers. We will see......

The BiMetal VSV and the Idle Control Solenoid are connected to the CC
according the The Chilton diagram p 4 - 30.



I just filled the gas tank.

325 miles travelled using 7.38 gallons of CENEX (crap) gasoline - 44 mpg!

That is about what I got, before the unfortunate times, with CENEX gas which
contains 10% Ethanol year round.

I have to use CENEX because that is all that is available out here in the boonies!

Next tank will be Chevron with Tekrolin.

DoctorBill

PS - I should start a survery of what you folks consider to be the best gasoline to buy.

i just use am/pm gas cause its the cheapest around here, the regular stations are 15-20 cents higher a gallon, we run it in the metros and the swift and my nissan truck, think its arco gas and never had a problem with it. do you ever make it over to this side of the mountains, will save a core motor for you if you want to take it apart and redo it

Normally I run COSTCO's gasoline due to the discount price.

God knows who's gas it is! Probably anybody's gas who will cut COSTCO a good
deal.

I've had many people tell me that the no name gasolines, like 1-Stop, Am/Pm, etc are garbage.

That sometimes the private gasoline delivery truck drivers will add used motor
oil to the gasoline.

And - that they are dirty and wear out one's injector orofices quicker.

Apparently there is little or no regulation or policing on these no-name gasolines....

Is that true? Maybe the regulations and policing change from State to State.

Anyway....44 mpg on The Phoenix! On what I know to be poor gasoline.

I should change the oil in The Phoenix as the weather is supposed to degenerate
these next few days.

I am too old to be out in slush and wet wind.....

DoctorBill

Have you ever heard of anyone like me, JSG...?

Can't say that I have. USA welcomes you every evening!

I have magic fingers. We will see......

I will take your word for it... No doubt you can provide references. If anyone can do it, you can.

The BiMetal VSV and the Idle Control Solenoid are connected to the CC
according the The Chilton diagram p 4 - 30.

Do they connect to the purge valve diaphragm or to the purge hose between the CC and the intake?

The best way to understand is to lobotomize a CC. What is wrong with your CC? Has the charcoal worn out?

Consumer reports has done tests and analysis on gasoline and additives including Tecron. You can find info about how fuel arrives from the refinery to the storage tanks in your area, and how many days it takes to travel through the pipeline.

Some years back I used my test vehicle (carburated 86 Sprint) and tried to make a reasonable comparison (nothing painfully scientific I just drove the same routes and filled up at the same station, the same way) of mileage on regular gas versus premium gas. As I recall I got enough better mileage with premium to make up the price difference when it was .10 per gallon, after that the returns diminished. Since then they had added the mid-grade gas and made the split between regular and premium .20/gallon I haven't repeated the test.

I think (no proof of any kind) my Metro's run a little better on name brand gas (I usually favor Chevron) but not so much that I'll go out of my way for it. So most of the time I run noname fuel with an occasional tank of "the good stuff" and a can of Seafoam thrown in for good measure.

This morning when I left for the College, it was 1 degree outside.

The car started very easily and started running very fast.

It idles faster as the temp drops. Is that from the temp sensor in the TB?

Anyway, I idled it down considerably by turning the Idle Adjust Screw in
(clockwise) after the engine had warmed up.


By the time I got back home today, I had turned over 500 miles on The Phoenix.

It is so Bloody Cold lately that changing the oil at any time now will be fun....

Still running like a sewing machine.....

The transmission makes nasty sounds when it is really cold out - Squeels and
grinding sounds. I am hoping that that is not a bad thing...

Once it is warmed up, shifts smoothly w/o any noise.

DoctorBill

44 psi indicated on the tire is the maximum for the tire, not for the vehicle. Always use the pressure recommended in the door placqard and the owners manual. At 44 psi you'r likely to wear out the middle of the tire due to overinflation.

I really have to agree with this - with an exception. Max pressure on the sidewall assumes you are at max rated load for the tire. Someone once said (not me) that pressure is linear to load. If you are using non-standard tires, then you should adjust your tire pressures accordingly per the tire load/pressure rating.

Example: if you are running a #3000 rated tire, you will be almost deflated to maintain tire wear, but on a #500 rated tire, you will be at or near the sidewall pressure,

my 2 cents

Someone once said (not me) that pressure is linear to load.

This statement is correct. Notice there is no mention of a tire or any other type of structure.

If you are supporting 2,000 lbs with a hydraulic cylinder with 100 psi whether it be air or liquid, reducing the pressure to 50 psi in the same cylinder will support 1,000 lbs. This is the linear example that fits "someone's" statement.

It is you and many other's who attach a tire without giving any consideration to the structure of so many different tire designs.

Are you assuming that tire structure has nothing to do with tire wear or load rating and that pressure alone is the only simple factor to consider?

Would you agree that tire manufactures can design tires to be any shape they want?

If there were a practical reason, engineers could design a tire that had a groove in the middle that would follow a train track rail.

Engineers design tires to do the best job under particular conditions. Some of the conditions are load, vehicle type, operating speed, temperature range, rain, snow, and dry road surface.

What you write sounds to me like you are concluding that tire wear and load is some how linear to tire pressure. If you know your vehicle weight and divide by the number of tires you know the weight at each wheel. Or work with either axle weight. Knowing the max load of the tire at the max inflation on the sidewall, are you concluding that you could make a linear calculation and adjust inflation pressure to determine optimum tire wear, or even the load rating at that pressure? How does a linear calculation work out in your situation with your vehicle and your tires and relate to your recommended tire pressure sticker?

There is far more to tire wear than inflation and alignment. Without correct alignment and inflation the tire design advantages are compromised.

Max inflation pressure doesn't assume anything or even if it is attached to a vehicle. Max load rating is a simple fact of what a particular tire is load rated at with the max listed pressure for that particular tire.

Max inflation pressure doesn't assume anything or even if it is attached to a vehicle. Max load rating is a simple fact of what a particular tire is load rated at with the max listed pressure for that particular tire.[/QUOTE]

I don't understand what you mean by that.

I visited many online tire websites, and almost all of them recommend using the tire pressure listed on the car, not the tire. I think this is why: A tire of the recommended size on a particular vehicle has a static load, GVW distributed between the front and the back tires. At the recommended air pressure, the tire has a contact patch with the road designed for that vehicle. The patch insures a good compromize between wet and dry handling and braking safety and a smooth ride. Too high a pressure and the patch is small and you are more likely to slip on an icy road. This is specific to the vehicle, not the tire, so you should follow the vehicle recommendations for tire pressure. If you use a different tire size, you're in a grey area.

I was answering your statement, "Max pressure on the sidewall assumes you are at max rated load for the tire."

The load rating is what the sidewall says at the max inflation listed on the sidewall, which has nothing to do with the load or whether the tire is sitting in a tire rack. The load rating is always the same at max inflation regardless of load. There is no assumption or need for a load assumption. Maybe I don't understand what you are saying.

How do you explain cars in 1970 that weighed close to 6,000 lbs having tires that are half as wide inflated to 32 psi max as tires on recent model year cars weighing 2,500 lbs that have max tire pressure inflation at 44 psi?

If you have tires that say 44 psi max inflation, inflate one to 44 psi and the other to 28 psi and look to see if they look a lot different when they have the same load on them. How much difference do you guess there is in contact patch area from one side to the other of the vehicle between the two identical tires with 16 psi or 40% difference? Anything close to a linear measurement? Does the tire with higher inflation bulge in the center of the tread?

The places you are looking at would rather explain all abnormal tire wear as an inflation problem that you are responsible for rather than a need for improved construction or a tire that is constructed to match the application. Often the abnormal wear is from under inflation. Often no extreme of inflation psi one way or the other or any where in between will create conditions for optimum wear.

Take a rock and balance it carefully on the top of a balloon. The weight of the rock is = to the pressure in the balloon X the contact patch area.

A tire is basically the same thing. A balloon doesn't have a substantial sidewall, so the pressure against the ground is only equal to the air pressure in the balloon. The tire pressure distribution against the road may be a little different, but not too much. Otherwise the tire wears unevenly.

This is why you need to pump up your tires when carrying a heavy load. You need to have the contact patch the same.

The same tire at different pressures has to have a different contact patch area. It may not look like it, but it's there.

My sticker says 80 psi on my F250 for the rear tires and 55 psi for the front. The sidewall says 80 psi max for each tire. If I run 80 psi on ther rears as recommended, then I have severe center wear in a short amount of time. If I deflate to 55 on the rears, then I get even wear throughout the tire tread. Also if I ran 80 psi in the fronts - severe center wear also. If I were to go to a different tire of the same size but different rating, say a load C rating (50 psi max) then I could never put 80 psi in that tire! Also a load rating of D is only good for 65 psi.

If you keep a 500# weight in the back of your metro all the time, it is obvious that keeping the door sticker tire pressure for the rear tires isn't going to hit it. You would need to increase the tire pressure as needed - not to exceed the sidewall pressure.

The point is that I think we are on a subject with lots of variables with no one right answer. If you stick with a stock tire on a stock metro, then go with the sticker on the driver's door. Once you go to a non-factory tire size/rating etc, my opinion is that you use your better judgement based on how that tire tread is wearing, but do not exceed the max tire pressure on the sidewall. Air down if you get center wear, air up if you get wear on both sides.

I just purchased my third tank of gasoline....Chevron with Tecroline.

I got 40 mpg on the second tank which was again CENEX crap gasoline (10% Ethanol).
The first tank of CENEX gas gave 44 mpg in warmer weather

Also, the temp has been down to zero Fahrenheit and in the teens for quite a while.
So I would expect low efficiency - low temp and crap gas mixed.....
http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/5286/fincompsitexl6.jpg
The message in the rear window says, "If You Tailgate, I Will Slow Down"
You have to be tailgating to read it...!

I should change the oil any time now.

Looking at those pictures, would you want to lay on the ground and loosen drain
plugs and remove filters...?

DoctorBill

Take a rock and balance it carefully on the top of a balloon. The weight of the rock is = to the pressure in the balloon X the contact patch area.

I am not smart enough to follow this formula.

A tire is basically the same thing. A balloon doesn't have a substantial sidewall, so the pressure against the ground is only equal to the air pressure in the balloon. The tire pressure distribution against the road may be a little different, but not too much. Otherwise the tire wears unevenly.

You are a little too basic when you compare a tire to a balloon. If your tires are close to what a balloon which has almost no structure is, you must need better bologna.

Make it really simple. The weight of your rock is equal to the weight on the ground regardless of the size of the contact patch area. The pressure in the balloon does not determine the contact patch area under all situations. Your reasoning is correct only to a point because a balloon has so little structure.

Use a large enough rock and your balloon will pop and the contact patch will become much smaller but still have the same weight distributed on the contact patch area. Lay the sorry popped balloon on your scale with a rock touching only part of the balloon. Because the balloon has no structure you will not have equal weight distribution on the contact patch area that the rock isn't touching. In fact you will have no weight on part of the contact patch.

My point is construction is very significant. Tires like balloons can be designed and constructed to maintain any shape imaginable using any particular pressure. Search "MetLife Blimp" or "Hot air balloon festival".

That does not mean inflation does not matter.

That is a rock and a balloon. Tires are very sophisticated balloons because of construction and the way they are designed. Visual inspection is not an accurate measurement. If the contact area does not look a lot different... it is not a lot different.

This is why you need to pump up your tires when carrying a heavy load. You need to have the contact patch the same.

If tire construction were as simple as you consider, contact patch area would always be the same on every vehicle and every tire design, we would simply add psi as the wheel load weight of any vehicle increased. Tire load ratings can be equal with 100% difference of inflation pressure because they are built differently. Likewise tires can and are being designed to maintain a more consistent contact patch area as weight or inflation changes.

Metro99 provides one example of one vehicle and application and what he has observed to be true under his situation. Nothing Metro99 writes is incorrect. His conclusion is one of my points. I have seen the same situation. I have also seen tires with superior construction run millions of collective miles on a fleet of E-350 chassis. The rear tires do not wear in the middle of the tread when inflated to 90 psi even when some of the trucks are nearly always running longer trips and more miles with very little load. Those vehicles weigh about half as much as an F-250. I have yet to see any tire wear evenly on TIB front suspension regardless of inflation. All tires are not constructed the same. All situations are not the same.

Tire construction in general has changed a lot over the years as has inflation recommendations. Tire manufactures work to improve tire construction using consistent psi that fits the tire construction every day to reduce the uneven wear condition that has been a huge problem on many tires in many situations for many years. If inflation was the only factor the problem would have easily been solved long ago.

Let me give you an example similar to one provided by my statics professor many years ago.

To make the math easy I'll use round numbers. Assume you have a Metro that weighs 2000 lbs and the weight is evenly distributed to each wheel. Each supports 500 lbs. I pump up each tire to 25 psi. The contact area on each tire is 500/25 or 20 square inches. So, if the width of the tread is 4", than the length of the patch along the road is 5".

Now, I stuff my mother-in-law into the trunk with all her stuff. She weighs 500 lbs and is placed directly over the rear wheels. Now the back wheels each support 750 lbs while the front wheels still only support 500 lbs.

In this case, the back wheels at 25 psi, have a contact area of 30 square inches since 750/25=30. With the tire with of 4 inches, the length of the contact patch is now 7.5" long. To get the same ride by reducing the contact patch area to match the front tires, you'd need to increase the pressure by 50%. This is why there is a rating on the side of the tire that should never be exceeded.

This has nothing to do with the sidewall construction, rubber formulation, steel belts, etc. It's just statics.

This is why you can pump up a tire to say 25 psi when it's up on a lift, and when you put the car back on the ground and load the tire, the pressure is still 25 psi.



One thing I said before in a previous post was incorrect. The use of steel belts probably does prevent the middle of the tire from wearing out due to over-inflation.

also designed the Ford Tempo...:icon16:

Yes, it is clear that you have eliminated structure and consider any tire to follow the same formula as a party balloon. Have you given any thought to this question?

How do you explain cars in 1970 that weighed close to 6,000 lbs having tires that are half as wide inflated to 32 psi max as tires on recent model year cars weighing 2,500 lbs that have max tire pressure inflation at 44 psi?

There are new factory vehicles that weigh less and have really fat tires, Porsche being some examples that go far beyond the factors in the question.

Apply your professor's formula and explain your psi and sq inches.

Yes, it is clear that you have eliminated structure and consider any tire to follow the same formula as a party balloon. Have you given any thought to this question?

How do you explain cars in 1970 that weighed close to 6,000 lbs having tires that are half as wide inflated to 32 psi max as tires on recent model year cars weighing 2,500 lbs that have max tire pressure inflation at 44 psi?

There are new factory vehicles that weigh less and have really fat tires, Porsche being some examples that go far beyond the factors in the question.

Apply your professor's formula and explain your psi and sq inches.

I know nothing about tires for Porsche, after all I drive a metro. Tires in the '70s were half the width of tires from today?

I remember the days of the "safety 99" bias ply tire for 18.95. It was shortly after we invented the wheel.

Bias ply had limits on construction & inflation that radial tires do not. Michelin , who invented the Radial in 1948, has an excellent internet site on this.

Now excuse me youngins while I go sip me geritol....:evillol:

At 710 miles, I changed the Oil and Filter in The Phoenix. 5w-30.

It was already dark - looked used.

Is that because of the new rings...?

The Phoenix is still running well!

I have yet to add back the Idle Adjust Solenoid, the Bi-Metal VSV and hook up
the Charcoal Canister.

I am wondering if I ever should ! Why?

The gas in her now is 3/4 Chevron with Tecroline.

This "arguement" about tires...why not take it to a new thread since many
folks won't know it is going on here in this thread about The Phoenix.

I am sorry I asked about tires.....

DoctorBill

I used to believe the same explanation that you are sticking with is always true. About 30 years ago what helped me to understand was a Goodyear factory rep explaining to me that tire engineers can design a tire any way they want. He said to me, "imagine that there is a belt that is as strong as a cable (doesn't have to be steel) in the center of the tire tread and only rubber on the sides." "If you inflate that tire will it wear in the center of the tread or at the edges?" "If you inflate the same tire even more will it wear less on the edges or more?"

He was explaining why it made sense that Goodyear was recommending a reduction in tire pressure to help reduce abnormal tire wear on the edges of their best tires at the time. He explained that the tire design engineering had overcompensated with the construction balance required to wear evenly across the tread. He and his associates had observed the same abnormal wear on fleets across the nation. Increasing the pressure increased the abnormal wear at the edges. Reducing the pressure didn't really change the abnormal wear.

Goodyear and Michelin both had a similar wear problem and tried the same answers. Both manufactures designed better tires that don't wear on the edges carrying the same load at the same nearly max inflation.

You have said that the sidewalls don't matter. Actually they do but the greater significance is in the design of the belt lamination in the tread area.

I have known for about the same length of time what the text books and professors teach as lab tests. With the variables of construction eliminated the formulas will always work.

No doubt the same professor insists that the law of COF says contact patch area does not matter and that skid marks are an exact science that say length of a skid will determine the exact speed that the vehicle was traveling. And that 12" Metro tires will get the same traction as the tires used on Top Fuel dragsters.

Both lab tests eliminate tire construction variables, one using no structure (the party balloon) and the second using the equivalent of a roller skate wheel. That I have had explained to me by a few engineers that work with these issues on a daily basis. I am not making stuff up as I go along or sharing how I have it figured. Just passing along what I have learned by more experienced teachers. I know of many people who just don't get it that have listened to the same engineers explain.