Different Idea

I had posted earlier about rebuilding my 1993 dodge shadow. Redone body, new interior and a different motor...well that is somewhat still the case except the different motor. I wieghed the pros and cons and decided to stay with my original engine. Its a 2.5 4-cylinder. I dont know much about cars, Yet. But Im a dedicated learner and have alot of help from car fanatics and also a shop owner we personally know *my buddies moms man* lol. What Im planning on doing is upgrading the motor and just rebuilding it. New performance parts and such. Im just looking for a point in the right direction. Ive ordered the Haynes: Dodge Shadow, 1987-1994 (Haynes Automotive Repair Manual Series) book and will use this as a referance. What are key things I need to know in my project?

that its a crap motor and crap car, and a complete waste of time.

I'm trying to be neutral though.

What, exactly, are the "goals" you are aiming for? That would net you some better advice. Not far from mine, but really....its a 80's Chrysler. 'Nuff said.

Well the car was well maintained before my time with it, everything under the hood runs really well and the only real problems I have with it are just rust spots and a slightly beat up body.

Im not doing this for racing, or much anything like that. Dont get me wrong I will put performace part in it and probably speed alittle with it but mostly I am doing it to have a nicer car. I own the vehicle already and want to update the thing to a semi-boasting level lol.

Things I need done:
-Back suspension (rattles)
-Rust removal, bondo, paint and bodykit
-Upgrade the engine (its a 2.5L 4cyl)
-Larger rims and performance tires
-Interior work and sound system
-Last and still debating, buying a used turbo kit *lol* (willing to pay for it)


Now Im still fairly new to engine work and have a good amount of help from techs I know. But what things could be done and replaced to upgrade my car to a finely running motor vehicle. Im going to get a crap vehicle to drive while I pull the engine out and replace some parts. How can I make this car strong and add years to it. Im trying to do this myself but I really want some advice from some car fanatics.:grinyes:

Investing all that money for performance upgrades is a crap shoot, and will only make the cost, not the value, of the car increase. When you want to sell your car, you won't get much over blue book value for it (which is about $1300), even with all the "nice" things you added to it.

IMO, sell it while you still can, save up some cash, and buy a newer, nicer car.

I dont mean to be rude, but this forum is very pesimistic. Im just looking for some support and advice and all you people are telling to do to give up or do something else. I do want this car, and I dont really care about the resell value afterwards, I already know about that. I am just looking for some help on getting started. Please no more "do-something-else" replys. Thank you.:disappoin

Ok fine....

First and foremost the engine has a great potential to be turbocharged. The Chrysler 2.5L engine is incredibly strong, but incredibly slow without a turbo (100 HP). Now, the 2.5 turbo engine has been used in Chrysler autos between 1989 - 1992, so you may be able to find a turbo housing/intercooler at some junkyards. Look closely at a lot of junkyards and you'll probably find one. The oil lines and whatnot will have to be fabricated, but that shouldn't be too hard with the people you know.

This link is about the 2.2 and 2.5L engines: Chrysler K engine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_K_engine)

If you want to browse wheels and tires, check out tirerack.com (http://www.tirerack.com)

I think that the shadow has a lot of potential...
i have seen a lot of really nice ones at various car shows.
80s cars are coming back in style.

you could turbo the engine, but if i were you i would look at dropping in the 3.0 V-6. that would not only wake up the car, but it would be a selling point when you eventually do want to sell the car. if you turbo the 3.0L you will get a lot more power.

as for paint and body kits, i am a big fan of white shadows.
put a big front air dam on it, and possibly side skirts, but skip the wing on the back.
17 inch wheels should be big enough and give you more options in terms of tire sizes.
235 width would be a good size i think.
as for the stereo, fine, but it will actually hurt the value if you have to cut the dash and put a sub in the trunk. its your choice.
if you go with white paint, it would look really cool if you black out the grille, mirrors, air dam and side skirts. that my opinion tho.
i would take a look at lowering the car 1.5-2 inches for a better feel and less floating... new shocks are a must. dont do like i did and get the expensive ones though, the cheap ones work just as well for everyday driving.
i got KYB gas-a-just shocks and i love them, they were just a little more expensive than i prefered to pay.
sorry for the long post.
good luck

Thanks GreyGrouse006, I really like the ideas but some how, fortunately I received the chance to get a free 95' 4-cyl 16v eagle talon with a engine that needs some work but nothing terrible, new eagle tires, great interior, its a auto transmission though...but fortunately its free. If you need more on it I still need to run over and check it all.

See 2 days ago my grandmother had her birthday and so I called her last night and talked and wish her happy birthday and then talked to my grandfather and told him what I was doing with my dodge. We talked about it for abit then out of no where he just asked me if I wanted his eagel talon, it was my older cousins a year ago then he moved to fl. and sold it to grandpapi. It needed some work on the engine but over the past year he worked on it, changing and rebuildin it. Finally he just told me I could have it if I would rebuild it and never ever just give it away before its done, unless to him of course lol. But yeah so I just need to go with a tow truck and grab the car and bring it home. Lucky my buddy I am doing this with, knows a guy with a garage(his mom's stepdad/hubbie). So with that Ill still pay but cheaper than another tow truck. Ill drive the shadow, and work on the eagle all winter....It was a good day yesterday.:lol:

Holy cow man, money pits just throw themselves at you! It wont matter if you completely replace everything on that DSM, something else is gonna break on it like every other week. A door handle, a tranny, the engine, the gas tank, I dont know, but you've been warned! ;)

c'mon guys, lets be nice at least.

aphaze... I totally understand the desire to mod what you have, but it is true that the Shadow isn't the wisest performance platform. Its based on the K-car chassis which is the least rigid of any of the American front-drive chassis of the era. The Shelby that they did with 224 hp had trouble ripping the motor mounts out of the sheet metal, and it was just in general a flimsy kinda construction. That's why you don't see very many on the road all tricked out (other than appearance changes)

Before Polygon the Moderator comes in and beats me over the head with his keyboard, I'd like to say that any car will respond to the simple stuff; cold air intake, exhaust, possibly a chip if someone makes one, but that all gets very expensive and you'll only see a couple HP at best. You'll go from painfully slow to loud and just really slow :)

Talk to the moderator by the name of Polygon. He's a nice guy and has done many turbo modifications on Chrysler stuff. He has a really fast LeBaron and maybe he can point you in the right direction.

But, like was said above, don't expect to get any of your investment back. You'll have to forgive the strongly opinionated contributors above. Don't let them sour your perception of AF. We just get a lot of questions like this asking how to make something out of nothing and its frustrating. We see the love that people have for their cars and its hard to reveal the weaknesses of their cars without insulting them.

Put it this way: its like putting caviar on a McDonalds hamburger. There is nothing wrong with a McBurger, its just that your caviar investments aren't going to pay off. Best just to leave the burger a burger. Now, a Fudruckers burger is a different thing. There you get a good quality burger as a blank pallette and you go to the fixins bar and make it your way.

I might suggest a sturdier foundation for your build. Trust me, the money you spend trading up will pay off a thousand times over compared to spending that money on modifying the Shadow.

I think that's what they're trying to say in not so many words :)

The Shelby that they did with 224 hp had trouble ripping the motor mounts out of the sheet metal, and it was just in general a flimsy kinda construction.
wow. thats pretty bad if the motor mounts ripped out...
seems like shelby woulda put a little more thought into that kind of thing.

personally, i like the K-Cars...
omnis are the shiznit, shelby ghls ones are the best.
K-Cars arent all bad... are they???

i doubt shelby had anything to do with the construction of the car, it was probably just his company's name put on the car as a publicity stunt.

anyways, if you REALLY want to keep your car and make it faster for cheap, you could go with nitrous. now, it's an old engine so you'll probably have to have it rebuilt (or buy a new one depending on the cost of a rebuild) but a nitrous system is cheap and it doesn't run all the time, a turbocharger and supercharger will decrease your gas mileage. another plus it that if you do eventually decide to switch cars, it's not all that hard to remove the nitrous system and modify it for a different car.

I prefer turbocharging and supercharging but i understand a small budget, i'm in university and don't have money to throw at my car. once i get a better job i'll do something (i'll probably end up not getting nitrous, maybe some small modifications, intake, headers, i want to keep the exhaust quiet though, and some other small ones while i wait for the money to do an engine swap).

i'm droning on so i'll wrap it up. don't rule out nitrous but if your engine isn't built for it (the same goes for turbocharging and supercharging) you'll probably end up killing it. it gives you a good burst of power for those very few bursts of speed you're going to be doing, it's cheap, and it's easy to swap to another car. the others don't require refills, they're always available for use as soon as you step on the gas (with a properly sized turbocharger there's very little noticeable lag) but they're more expensive and will cut your gas mileage a bit.

no, shelby did actually manufacture all the shelby versions of the cars.
if you look on the window sticker of any car with the shelby name, you will see that the place of assembly is listed as in the shelby plant.
check out allpar.com

the problem with nitrous is that it can kill an engine in a heartbeat if something goes wrong.
personally, i would feel safer with a turbo, but thats me.
superchargers are even safer because of the low boost pressures, and the power is there instantly.
you could combine a supercharger and nitrous, as a friend of mine did.
he had a civic hatchback with a 2.2L swap (b20 i think)
rebuilt bottom end, hot cam, ported heads, pistons, the whole nine yards.
it was actually amazing the amount of work he put into that engine.
he had a centrifugal supercharger putting like 10 PSI. (he swapped it in in favor of a turbo that put in 24psi. too much lag he said)
then he added a 35 shot of nitrous.
i heard a LOT of stories of his racing endeavors.

the problem with nitrous is that people don't use it properly. nitrous with the correct ammount of fuel is just as safe as a turbocharger or a supercharger. if you lean out with a turbo or super you're going to blow your engine, same goes for nitrous. a properly designed wet system will give you good power when you need it, it won't hurt your engine more than other forms of forced induction, and it's cheaper than the other two if you don't use much of it.

How much extra power are you looking for? you can get a 30 or 35hp wet system from one of the manufacturers, not sure which. it adds the right ammount of fuel with the nitrous, and you can have it to go off when you floor the gas pedal, only when it's armed obviously. they're very safe, the last thing these companies want it for you to blow your engine using one of their products. all you have to make sure is that your engine is up to the higher combustion temperatures, higher stress, etc. if your engine's going to blow on a 35 wet shot of nitrous, it sure as hell won't hold up to a 60hp turbocharger system.

edit: I really think that nitrous is the way he should go, he doesn't seem to have much experience working on cars, designing a turbo system might be a little much for him. he could get help from his friends we can't judge how good they are. nitrous is easy, it's quick, it's cheap. that's what he's looking for, that's what he'll get with it. now, obviously a turbocharger system is more impressive, and he demonstrated a desire for bragging rights, so if he wants to spend the extra money to have a more impressive car, go for it. a turbocharger will always be available, it will make your engine bay look alot better, and it will impress others more, a nitrous system is easy, cheap, and can be equally fast if you do the right supporting mods. weigh your options, make your decision. it's my oppinion that you go with nitrous, obviously others think you should go with a turbocharger or supercharger, once polygon sees this thread he'll be shoving arguments down my throat about turbocharging, all of which will most likely be true. but ultimately it's your decision and if nitrous works best for you, i'd say screw what everyone thinks, it's your car.

I agree that if you want big power from a weak engine and dont know a whole lot then a properly designed nitrous system is great.
thats the problem.
with nitrous, all you have to do to get more power is put the biggest jet they give you in, and wham. 50hp.
with a 50 shot on an engine that only makes 98-115 hp, you are talking about a lot of power.
at those levels, you shouldnt heep the juice on for more than 5-7 seconds.
you need an interupt switch that wont let you use nitrous if there is anything abnormal going on. without proper gauges, it is hard to stay safe, unless you stay coservative with your power. easier said than done...

if i were you, i'd stick to getting the exterior and interior of the car to your liking. spend the time until then researching and learning as much as you can about engines and cars in general. hang out in AF and i GUARANTEE you will learn something each day... i sure did.
once you have the car looking good, it will be easier for you to make the decision to start upgrading the engine. start with the exhaust. that is usually good for 10 hp or so.
turbos are hard becuase you need to work them into the exhaust system and everything. you could either go with a centrifugal supercharger (good) or nitrous (well, thats your choice... not mine). that will get you a big gain.
if you end up going w/ a supercharger, you may look into injectors (also relatively cheap and easy if you know how).
either way, it will be a fun project and you will learn a LOT.

I agree that if you want big power from a weak engine and dont know a whole lot then a properly designed nitrous system is great.
thats the problem.
with nitrous, all you have to do to get more power is put the biggest jet they give you in, and wham. 50hp.
with a 50 shot on an engine that only makes 98-115 hp, you are talking about a lot of power.
at those levels, you shouldnt heep the juice on for more than 5-7 seconds.
you need an interupt switch that wont let you use nitrous if there is anything abnormal going on. without proper gauges, it is hard to stay safe, unless you stay coservative with your power. easier said than done...
true, i guess it's more of a problem of self control than anything. i know i'd have problems with it but i'd keep myself away from those higher jets. the problem with nitrous is that people know it's easy but they don't do anything other than install the kit and wham, they've got power. well they've also got a dead engine in a few weeks, if that, because they didn't upgrade their water pump and radiator to cope with the increased temps, they didn't upgrade their ignition system to cope with the faster burn, and the cardinal sin, they didn't upgrade their fuel system or didn't add enough fuel with a wet system. but if he gets his engine running like new, enough so he can run a turbo system, then he should have no problem running a nitrous system and it'll cost him less, provided he doesn't use it all that much.

by the way, how much would a refill for nitrous cost? i don't know what tank he'd go for so let's just give a list for all tank sizes.

not sure really, but i'm sure it depends greatly on where you go, and who you know. freind of mine (the one i talked about earlier) got it for free because the garage he worked at did refills, and he got the closing shift every friday night...
i'd guess around $150 depending on the size of the tank.

not sure really, but i'm sure it depends greatly on where you go, and who you know. freind of mine (the one i talked about earlier) got it for free because the garage he worked at did refills, and he got the closing shift every friday night...
i'd guess around $150 depending on the size of the tank.
i thought it was alot cheaper than that, i remember seeing something like $60 for a tank, don't remember how big it was though.

then you are probly right. i was just guessing. (BIG tank lol)

then you are probly right. i was just guessing. (BIG tank lol)
you could always just stick a propane tank filled with nitrous in your trunk, that way you could go from ottawa to montreal (about a 3hr drive) on nitrous lol.

i was just thinking about that...
actually propane can be used in an engine much like nitrous, except that it works on the fuel side of the equation... meaning that it atomizes COMPLETELY and has a lot more power per whatever than gasoline.
you see it a lot in diesel engines.

10 lb tank is about $40 to fill.

NOS is good for two things. Dyno queens and 1/4 mile track cars. 10 lb's will get you about 40-60 seconds of use, depending on the size of your shot. I don't know about everyone else, but $40 per 60 seconds, and requiring at the least, a change of tanks to continue, is not worth the trouble. I'd rather have it on tap at all times.

I won't even go into how violent NOS is to an engine. You would need, at the very least, to carry spare spark plugs on hand at all times, because NOS eats them like candy. Many cars (the 2.2/2.5 ain't them of course) plugs are a major pain to do on the side of the road.

Boost is your friend.

Man Im slackin on my thread. Everyone thanks for the input, Im really learning alot of Nitrous and what I should prep for. But again, my plans for the reborn shadow are out the window...I think. Im gonna guess and say that the 95' Eagle Talon that Im getting probably a better car than my shadow, Im probably going to switch gears towards that. My shadow runs so Ill just drive it while I take the engine out of the Talon and rebuild that. As far as my knowledge goes, the talon engine only has some valve trouble. What other things can come from broken valves? I know that when replacing them that its key to be perfect. I figure I rebuild my engine, save for a turbocharger and possibly nitrous and hope that its all finished by spring. I dont need to spend much on the exterior, except a body kit. The tires and rims are basically new and fairly expense, so I hear. Still waiting to go see this car again to find more out about it (its at my grandparents so it wont be long).



edit: Oh yeah, also this may be a broad question, but roughly how much should I spend on just the engine, replacing parts (broken or not) that should be replaced with performace parts? Thank again guys.

it depends on what you want to do with it. i'm guessing since you said you want to save for a turbo that this isn't the turbo version. i believe the engine was pretty good for boost, someone correct me if i'm wrong, and can handle alot of it, when it runs of course. i don't think you would need to replace alot of things, other than the stuff that's broken or in bad condition. i'd get it rebuild if you're planning on getting alot of performance since it's an old car and you don't know how well it's been maintained.

again, don't take this as fact, it's just stuff i think i remember people saying so someone either back me up or correct me on it. i'd go for either turbo or nitrous since it's alot for an engine to take both, and you'd want both to be really well set up because the chances of something going wrong increases alot when you're running two power adders. with the talon there's a big enough aftermarket for a turbocharger and alot of knowledge available out there for them so i'd suggest going with a turbo on this. it'll be more expensive but there's alot of info out there that you should be able to build a really good setup.

you'll want to go over the whole car though, make sure everything's in good running order. you'll want to upgrade the breaks at the very least because with added power, you'll probably have to stop pretty well, i'd also suggest getting a good coilover suspension so you don't just have a drag car but something that can do well in the twisties.

BTW is it all wheel drive or is it front wheel drive? i'm pretty sure they offered both right?

yeah, they offered an AWD version, which can made to go extremely fast.
there is a guy out there who goes 7.27 at ~185 in the 1/4 mile... YIKES.

Oh yeah, also this may be a broad question, but roughly how much should I spend on just the engine, replacing parts (broken or not) that should be replaced with performace parts? Thank again guys.
a good rule of thumb is that you dont want to spend more than %50 of what it costs to get a new motor.
you are going for performance, so you can spend a little more, but i (personally) would be looking at about $1000 as the upper limit. at least until you find that you need something.
(the 1000 i said did not include parts for turbo/intercooler/nitrous/whatever)

Yeah Ive heard that %50 rule before from other places and $1000 is right around where I was thinking. I still gotta do my research on Talons so Ill probably have more questions soon. :smokin:

Ok some bad news. Im not completely understanding of what Im getting myself into but I know the history of the cars death (the talon's). Ok anyone ever hear of somone dumping water in the cars oil and then driving the already overheated car? This wasnt my cousins doing (gotta protect the family rep) it was his darling girlfriend that was the idiot. The engine block isnt cracked but I believe the pistons may be stuck....:banghead: . How bad is this?

HAHAHA.
what stupidity.

um, yeah, your pistons are probably 'stuck' for good.

of course it depends on the amount of water and how long it was driven. most important thing is how long it sat without being drained and fixed.

if i can make a suggestion, push the talon off the nearest cliff... it will hit 60 mph in 2.73 seconds (surely a record for an un modified talon)
go find yourself a car that you like, and will take pride in modifying.
there are tons of cars out there that can be had for 500-1500 dollars and are in good to great condition. i would recommend something 79-93 with RWD and a standard trans. they are good project cars and easy to have fun with (vs a FWD auto)
good luck

I really want this talon! lol but the situation sucks..hardcore. Ill just look though local car add for something good to work on.

Jeeeze...you guys play hard ball.

Do your own thaing man, what's candy to some is crap to others but your the only one you have to impress.
One word, TURBO, and yes bigger is better, but dont go overboard on compression or cam profiles (4 bangers love turbo's). Rule number 2, LOWER is better... drop that suka... 17" or 18"'s and as wide as possible with some bling on the lips with dark centers. Go "EURO" trash on it, mono color paint and no chrome, shave everything:door handles, hood trim, side moldings, pin stripes, logos and badges, and especialy that auful "Landau" top, (it improves any body style even 80's Chrl products) Good luck and have fun with it.

Oh Yeah... don't worry about the money they will print more if we need it.

a bigger turbocharger isn't always better, the bigger the turbocharger the bigger the lag. 17's are big enough, bigger will probably get pretty heavy, might have problems fitting, and they'll make you slower. as for width, same goes for that, the wider they are, the heavier they are. this means that ifyou've got good enough traction, there's no point in going any wider, it'll only make you slower. shaved door handles aren't always legal, check with your local laws before doing that, some require a manual way of opening the door in case the battery fails or there's a short somewhere or other electrical problems.

well ok then...

go big or go home after all its a Dodge Shadow for cry'n out loud. There aint too many things you can do to it short of pushing it off a cliff.

um, he is ditching the shadow and 'pimpin' the talon...

Jeeze... here we go again

however, back a couple of years ago I was cruzin the 83 320i (highly modified M10 with twin 45 DCOE's and hot rod goodies, my Solo toy) and some kid (younger than me) in a "Talon" (I didn't see the Turbo badge on it or I would have maybe reconsidered) kept charg'n me on the expresway so I run up on him and gased it. Shizam we were off to the races, I pulled him for hundred feet or so but all of the sudden all I hear is "whoooosssshhhh" of the turbo spoolin up and...hell yeah he was gone. I caught up with him at the next exit and looked it over. Fast little car.

yeah I know street racing is ilegal...in all states:nono:

you shouldn't judge all talons by the one stock one you ran into on the freeway.

There are 1000+ hp talons out there that would eat your ass for lunch and ask for seconds. Lot of potential in those

But then, the model name plate really doesn't matter one bit. You can make any car sick as sin with enough imagination.

a recent example of what I'm talking about... How about an Original Mini with a turbo charged Suzuki Hayabusa motor in it. 400HP, converted to rear wheel drive. I wouldn't mind having one.....

http://www.minibusa.no/

Well I was looking for talon sti turbo engines and a new tranny. Might just invest in that.