I think Dodge Bsed me...

I have a Dodge, Strat. 02
That just recently got distroyed because of an old timeing belt. Heres my problem.
3Weeks ago, I took it into a Dodge Machnic to have them look at it. I specifically asked them to Check the Timeing Belt. Did it need replacement?
They told me and my husband. No, it looks fine.
that was three weeks ago. Yesturday the timeing belt (surprise surpris) broke. When I went back in and told them I refused to pay 2,000 dollars in damages because they told me it was fine. They then told me there was no way for them to tell if a timeing belt was getting old because there was no fraying.
They never once told me that because of the milage on the car (105,507) that we Should replace the belt. Nor did they tell me that they could not tell if the belt was old or not.
So in other words..they told me they checked a belt and said was fine that they couldnt check and say if fine or not to begin with.
I feel they they are dicking me and my husband around hard core.
So ive come to you for some help!
Can ANYONE tell me if it is possible to check a timeing belt to see if it needs replacing? And if so, how is it done? and if not..then can we some how hold the dealership responcible for telling us it was fine when they really had no way of telling it was fine or not?
Thank you so much for you help!

my honest advice; buy a Ford..

I wish I had at this point..but that doesnt help you now. Got any advice?

always there word aginst yours and to me it seems like all you can do is pay to have your car fixed...or file a complaint to the gm and then to dodge

remind me how a snapped timing belt "destroyed" it. the worst i've known to come from a snapped timing belt is off timing, but that doesn't really do much because with a snapped timing belt an engine won't run.

do mean the valvetrain was damaged?

Usually timing belts show no noticeable signs before breaking. They can check for freying and cracking, but this does not nessassairly show the integrity of the belt. Bottom line is, as shitty as it may sound- there is nothing you can do except pay to have it fixed.

remind me how a snapped timing belt "destroyed" it. the worst i've known to come from a snapped timing belt is off timing, but that doesn't really do much because with a snapped timing belt an engine won't run.

do mean the valvetrain was damaged?

Broke timing belt, valves collide with pistons, valves bend, pistons damaged, all sorts of chios. How the fuck did you become and "advisor"?

Looks like it. ..I was reading up on timeing belts.

I just wish they had Said Something about it should be changed around 100,000 miles. Or that they really Couldnt tell us because a timebelt Doesnt give any signs of breaking. (at least then i would have gotten it changed just in case).

I just hate that i paid 30 bucks to get it checked and told it was fine only to have it break 3 weeks later when they Honestly couldnt tell me if the damn thing was fine or not to begin with... and now having to shell out over 1,000 to 2,000 dollars on the thing when i could have saved myself with only 4 - 500 dollars earler. its really crappy how they did us in my opinion. I feel like they BSed us even still. Shouldnt there be Something that can be done? or at least something stating that they have to tell us that they cant Honestly check a timing belt..i mean eesh..how many ppl who know nothing about cars have they pulled this on? its like a money schame.

Broke timing belt, valves collide with pistons, valves bend, pistons damaged, all sorts of chios.

i know that can happen, i've just never seen it, then again, within my friends/family timing belts/chains are changed every 20-30k miles, to prevent that kind of thing.

How the fuck did you become an "advisor"?

i'm not sure if that's on a personal or curious level...

its because i help out a lot around the forums. :smooch:

I just wish they had Said Something about it should be changed around 100,000 miles. Or that they really Couldnt tell us because a timebelt Doesnt give any signs of breaking. (at least then i would have gotten it changed just in case).

in reality all you had to do was read your owners manual for that information...that's how i found out when to service my transfer case and differentials on my Land Cruiser...but all that info was supplied to you when you got the car (or should have) and i can't stress enough about getting a Haynes or Chiltons manual for your car...but truth be told, fault lies on you even though the mechanic may have contributed slightly by not relaying some info...but that's if he did check the timing belt at all

Broke timing belt, valves collide with pistons, valves bend, pistons damaged, all sorts of chios.
only if the pistons are not non-interference pistons. a lot of cars use non interference pistons so that if the timing belt breaks, all you get is screwed up timing. this prevents you from running super high compression, but since most cars dont anyway, there is no real loss

How the fuck did you become and "advisor"?
By not being a hot-head like yourself
nobody knows everything about everything.
Again, non-interference pistons are becoming more popular, so this is an issue that is, well, becoming less of an issue.

my honest advice; buy a Ford..
not sure if that would help much either.
then again...
speed kills. drive a ford and you'll live forever
i'm a chevy guy myself.

A broken timing belt can still cause piston/valve damage on a non-interferience engine- I'v seen it happen. And sence it is an interferience engine your point is ... well pointless.

If the car isn't under any warranty, then the repair cost is completely in your hands. You own the car, in which case you should have the owners manual and therefore know when the timing belt should be changed.

I agree, the mechanic should have informed you that at around 105K miles the timing belt needed to be changed, but that doesn't mean they can be held responsible for your break down. Bottom line is: no warranty = your fault
---
P.S. Are you sure that the engine/valvetrain is damaged? If you have the 2.4L engine, then I believe it's a non-interference type motor, in which case you just have to replace the belt (the engine is fine). If you have the V6 engine however, then you'll have to replace the whole motor.

A little tidbit I've gained from working at a new-car dealership garage, they will tell you anything to make money... seriously. Some are fine, but many are all about the cash.

Let's take this from the garage's perspective. You bring your car to the dodge tech and this conversation happens:

You: could you check my timing belt and see if it needs replacing?
tech: sure, that's gonna cost $30
you: Ok, do it. I dont wanna break anything.

The first problem is that you requested a service that is not part of Chrysler's prescribed thing. It goes on the receipt as "customer requests..." What the tech SHOULD have told you is that checking a belt doesn't do anything. A timing belt doesn't usually fray, crack, or show any signs of wear. It just gets done stretching and it breaks. Instead, he probably said to himself that its easy money. That's two hours labor on my paycheck that I can get done in 45 minutes. So he did. And he probably said to himself, "the customer asked me to check the timing belt, and.... yup, its a timing belt." Then at the very least he should have informed you of the 100k mile interval, but he didn't. Why? Becuase that's more dollar signs... big ones. If you bust an engine, that's serious cash.

I got "let go" because I didn't fit that mold. My buddy was making $120k a year and I was making $20-30k. The secret is upselling. You come in for an oil change and the oil change tech tells you your brakes are close to being worn out. Then halfway through the brake job the brake tech says he can't fix the brakes without new rotors and calipers, and also notices an oil pan leak so he tries to upsell a leak fix. A sucker will go in for a $30 oil change and come out $600 later having had things fixed that didn't really NEED work. We used to say, "get this customer a mattress," because they just lay down for us and let us do our thing.

It hurt me so I was glad to get out, but its VERY true. You know those awards on the wall of the service department? The ones that say something like "pentastar award of service excellence."? Those are awards for being the most successful at turning warranty claims into upsell profits. I worked as a salesman at one of those dealerships and I couldn't get MY warranty claims covered without someone first telling me, "oh that's not covered." Why do they do it? Because if the customer presses the issue, the service manager can always say, "I'm sorry, he's new, of course its covered." But, you wouldn't believe the number of warranty claims we turned into customer pay.

Stick to your guns, ride it out as long as you emotionally can, but expect to lose. I'm very sorry to say that, but its the truth. They have lots of very expensive lawyers and you don't. I think a judge would rule in favor of the service department because it will be easy to prove that there was no way a tech could have predicted when it would break.

I wish you the best of luck. In the future, skip the dealer entirely they are trained for two weeks (ask me how I know) in how to get a customer to roll over and pay. Find a reputable shop and do your homework. Find out when timing belt intervals are and stick to them. If you go to a shop for work, ask for an estimate and then bring it here. We'll help you figure it out. There are several guys in this eng/tech forum with great insight on stuff like that.

Good luck

Thank you so much Curtis and thank you so much everyone else!

Yeah I know I should have had my owners manual on my lap for this one, unfortunatly I didnt gain the car until I got married to the man that owns it..and he isnt good about keeping stuff like that. (so if you know how to get a new one, id like the info..now that i know how much I Seriously need one).

And as for curtis' insight. I believe every word of it, unfortunatly as that is. I spoke my mind to them again earlier today about the whole ..not telling me that you Honestly cant check a timeing belt. And they just looked at me with a blank smile and nodded their head as if to say "yep! thats exactly what we did..and Nope we arent going to offer to help you in any other way than sucking you dry". Needless to say I really wanted to kick in some teeth.

WELL the end result was this
we generally had to suck it up of course...a 2,500 dollar (roughly) bill.
Nice huh?
My husband (who is military) is trying to get us an AER to help pay the bill...basically ..military emergancy loan that we dont have to pay intrest on because it come directly out of your pay check each month. though we dont know how much we are going to get yet..and the rest will be up to us.
It will take 3 days to repair the car..so we are shelling out about 35.00 a day for a rental (which in the case of rentals here isnt really that bad..and its not a lemon).
And we have learned a valuable lesson...when the wife says "that guy (not a mech.) that looked at the car said we need to replace the timeing belt soon" 6 months ago ...we DO NOT listen to the dealership..we listen to the wife..and the man not getting paid jack.

Thank you again SO much for your guys insight, and if Ever I need anything else, I KNOW where I will be going for information.

PS
When I get the quote and the sheet on what needs to be replaced in the car back from the AER, ill post it..so you can see Exactly what got screwed.
and tell me if they are just running me around the park again with excess charges.

sux...but if you can't find an owners manual you may want to get a Chiltions or Haynes manuals b/c it covers basic maintance in the front of the book and they run like $17

I got "let go" because I didn't fit that mold. My buddy was making $120k a year and I was making $20-30k. The secret is upselling. k

That's exactly why i quit this crooked ass business and i'm going back to school. I only made 12k a year because 1. the dealer extorted me in pay (i'm sorry you cant live off of 10 bucks an hour and 35 hours a week in this great state of Taxachusetts) and i never upsold anything that didnt need upselling. Im just too honest to be a mechanic. And now i know that when i do get a new car, i'm only bringing it to the dealer while its under warranty.

it's a very crooked industry. i'm trinaing as an auto tech (that's upselling the name mechanic) but i want to work in a Mercedes-Benz dealership, and i don't plan on upselling anything, i'll only do the work i'm told to do by my superiors. if they upsell something, i'll do what i'm told.

the best way to deal with all this is to prevent it for next time, change the belts every 20-30k miles (they're cheap things anyway) and get the car up on stands occasionally, check things yourself. it'll be like 1-2 days work, but if they tell you the oil pan/sump is leaking, and you've had a look and seen that it's fine, you can tell them they're wrong.

it'll save you time and money.

Meh. 20-30k is a little overboard IMO. For modern cars, 90k you should be fine. Also, TB jobs are usually not recommended for the do-it-yourselfer. It's possible, but especially on a V6, its a lot of work to get to the belt itself.

Meh. 20-30k is a little overboard IMO. For modern cars, 90k you should be fine. Also, TB jobs are usually not recommended for the do-it-yourselfer. It's possible, but especially on a V6, its a lot of work to get to the belt itself.

preventative maintenance. i have a friend who changes the belts on his BMW every 10,000 miles, as well as changing every filter and tearing the engine down to check its condition.

but that's an engine which is faily well tuned, maybe excessive to some, but i see it as good maintenance.

preventative maintenance. i have a friend who changes the belts on his BMW every 10,000 miles, as well as changing every filter and tearing the engine down to check its condition.

but that's an engine which is faily well tuned, maybe excessive to some, but i see it as good maintenance.

That friend seems to be allergic to money as well.
for *normal* people who dont have $1000 to spend every 10k to have every filter, gasket and belt changed, then 60-90k is a good mark to go by. Or check your owners manual. That's usually the best bet.
Anyway, car manufactures are going back to timing chains, and those you dont have to worry about at all really. They won't break, they just stretch and get sloppy, and you'll know when its time to change it (usually 150k+ miles anyway).

when you build race cars for a living and make $131 an hour you can afford it.

for the rest of us, you can stretch the belts for a little longer.

lol yeah money is deffinatly an issue. And as a newly wed couple, just now getting settled into a new state..yeah we have had to tighten our belts..Alot. I think thats what upsets me the most..I know ppl get scammed a little everyday (doesnt make it right..but it happens) ..it just seems to happen when you LEAST need something like that going on. know what I mean?

So I guess im glad me and my husband learned our lesson early on. And Next time we buy a vech. we are going to look into timing Chains...I rather a little warning...not this.."oh we cant really tell..Oops..it looks like it broke, heres a 2,000 bill."
..not nice...

I just hate that i paid 30 bucks to get it checked...

here's the problem in a nut shell.

What you paid for, was an oil change by a snot-nosed 16 y/o kid who knows the really important stuff. Where the oil drain plug is, where the oil filter is, and where the oil fill is.

Added to his vast capabilities, is how to check tire pressure, and how to check some minor things, such as air filter, brakes and other difficult items.

It really doesn't matter what they told you, because in order to properly "inspect" the timing belt, they would have to REMOVE the timing belt. Which is a multi-hundred dollar job, and is rather pointless at that point since its only an extra $60 or so to replace the timing belt.

The thing I don't understand about this situation though, is if you have 105K on the car, and it was the original belt, then what was the "debate"? The timing belt was past due. No matter what it looked like, it was needed.

So why would the service department NOT try to sell it to you? I can't say MY shop would have let such a tastie morsel out the door without an attempt of upsell. Unless the service writer that was helping you just doesn't have much interest in getting paid for her efforts anyway.....

Or were you informed it wasn't the original timing belt (it had been replaced before) and/or you weren't sure if it was...?

Service departs make money by selling work. Something seems odd here IMO.....

One other thing I would suggest though, its not a forgone conclusion that the belt broke due to age. Often tramatic failure such as this, is due to something else. A siezed waterpump or idler, or a failed tensioner, or even a partially siezed cam shaft. I know this won't make you feel any better about the situation, but even if they really had "inspected" the timing belt, that might not have changed the situation at all.

...and i don't plan on upselling anything,

and just two sentences later!

change the belts every 20-30k miles

:rofl:

Nope....no upselling here!

What makes a crooked shop is two things: One, they sell things that don't need doing, because the customer is too clueless to know better. Two: They don't admit guilt when they mess something up charge the customer to fix it.

Thats a very black and white definition, and the grey area that will fall over these situations is rather hard to paint without some hard feelings.

Take the original post here. We have a situation where, a maintenance item was past due, the belt broke, but I there is no definite reason why it broke, and a shop told them that the belt "looked" OK. Now you could call that shop a "crook" for not telling them they were going to die if they drove the car so much as around teh block without replacing the belt that very minute......I can tell you from personal experience, that line of attack does not work well...even when it really IS true. Customers get uppity when you use the fire and brimstone line on them. They think you're insinuating that they are stupid (which we usually are...because its usually something kind important like brakes that are about to no longer "brake"!)

But really. How can ANYONE predict the life of a belt? You can't. You can make guesses, but they are just that.

I think you could, at the best, call this a inattentive oil change. The service writer didn't change what was written in the maintenance schedule in the owners manual. Yes, they should have recommended it, but recommending something doesn't make it more or less necessary. It also doesn't prevent things from breaking, things that very well could be completely unrelated!

I feel I work at a pretty legit shop. What breeds bad feelings, IMO, between customers and shops, is ignorance. People KNOW they are ignorant about cars, and they KNOW that they could be lied to at the counter, and not be able to tell. This sits in the back of their mind in all dealings with a shop, and they are constantly attempting to find flaws in what they are hearing. Even when everything goes perfectly smooth, they will never be truly happy because their car will be the same as it was before they brought it, and their checking account will be much lighter, and they don't even know if anything was actually done to the car. Its not a situation that breeds happiness, to put it lightly.

And thats not even getting into when things go wrong! Then it can get really ugly all the way around.....but a good shop is fair and up front. Simple as that. Hard to tell if you're not intimate with the workings. I fully understand

and just two sentences later!
Nope....no upselling here!

that's just me, for my car. if the service manual for a customer's car said change the belts at 90k, i'd change them at 90k unless otherwise requested.

The thing I don't understand about this situation though, is if you have 105K on the car, and it was the original belt, then what was the "debate"? The timing belt was past due. No matter what it looked like, it was needed.

I had never Heard of a timing belt before this point. I am not a car person, never have been. I usually left that up to my husband (I know better now *rolls eyes*) but the problem with that is he is military and is overseas alot..so had to become the person to take care of the car. So bascially, im still learning ..Everything about cars. So when the dealership says "the belt is fine" I took their word on it beliveing They are the experts, they will take care of it. The only reason I even Asked about the timing belt was because a friend of mine (who changed my oil for me once) said something about it. (this was a little while before the 105k was on the meter mind you).


So why would the service department NOT try to sell it to you? I can't say MY shop would have let such a tastie morsel out the door without an attempt of upsell. Unless the service writer that was helping you just doesn't have much interest in getting paid for her efforts anyway.....

I asked them to check the belt, they said they would. They never told me that it took takeing the car apart. So in all honestly, I cant tell you if they checked the belt or not. We got several things done to the car that day that took it staying at the shop all day..so I just assumed that that was what they were doing (like I said..I was very very nieve). I did know A little of what needed to be done with a timing belt though (thanks to my friend) ..that a water pump is wise to replace after changing a timeing belt...(mind I didnt know what that was or how long it took to replace) so I figured thats what was takeing so long..them having to remove that to check and see if the belt was ok, then replaceing it (which they charged me for by the way). As to Why they didnt catch that I needed to replace a belt at 105k ..I dont know. Maybe it was a screw up on their part (as well as mine for not knowing).

Or were you informed it wasn't the original timing belt (it had been replaced before) and/or you weren't sure if it was...?

They never asked, nor did they inform me of anything. But it was the original because after asking my husband about it later, he had never had it changed..so it had to be an original (it was new when he baught it).

One other thing I would suggest though, its not a forgone conclusion that the belt broke due to age. Often tramatic failure such as this, is due to something else. A siezed waterpump or idler, or a failed tensioner, or even a partially siezed cam shaft. I know this won't make you feel any better about the situation, but even if they really had "inspected" the timing belt, that might not have changed the situation at all.

Its quite alright, me and my husband are in the proccess of getting it all worked out. But as for what else could have made this happen..im not so sure. We did have the car inspected ..16 and 24 point, fluids replace, ect ect. not but 3 weeks before..and had taken the car in a Second time (before the belt) because of a "hiccup" in the transmition (air bubbles). So if there were any other problems before that..I would have hoped it was caught..hell if they upselled me and told me that I needed this, this and this..just to keep my car going..I would have shelled out to avoid This. May sound stupid..but when you only have one car and you know little to nothing about them...you take the experts advice and run with it.
But yeah..they said it was the timing belt that broke when they looked at the car..so again..I guess we are takeing their word for it, yet again.

So why would the service department NOT try to sell it to you?

they may have foreseen that it would snap, and bugger the entire engine. if a belt costs $30, they'd rather it snapped and you had to go to them for a $2,000 engine rebuild. if they just sell you the belt, potentially they're losing out.

they may have foreseen that it would snap, and bugger the entire engine. if a belt costs $30, they'd rather it snapped and you had to go to them for a $2,000 engine rebuild. if they just sell you the belt, potentially they're losing out.

this is the popular conspiracy theory that many associate to shops, and I won't deny that there are a FEW shops out there that might follow such a strategy, but really....if this were the case, they would never recommend anything, would they?

Why recommend brakes, when you can not tell them, and the brakes wlll be metal to metal in a few months, and then you could sell rotors, and maybe justify calipers too? Same could be said about oil changes, tune ups etc.

MOST shops realise that unless you have a die-hard faithful customer, you try for what you can (legitamately or otherwise) when you have them there. You don't send them packing out the door in hopes they will be back. Since most shop employees are comission pay based, you want the money NOW, no some unforseen future time.

Ah I got the Sheet back about what was broken on the car when the timing belt went out. Also I got the records of what we had done the first time we went in with the car.

since I dont have a scanner, ill just have to type it..sorry.


Labor and Parts
J# 1 20DOZ Cooling System Hours: 0.50 Tech(s): 4003 =30.00

Customer States the AC only blows on high
Found blower motor resistor shorted out. Needs to be replace
D gave customer estimate.
Customer denied estimate.
Parts - QTY - FP-number --Description-- Unit Price-
Job# 1 Total Parts 0.00
Job# 1 Total Labors and Parts 30.00

---

J# 2 20DOZ01 Heating Concern Hours: Tech(s):4003 =0.00

Customer States the heat is not blowing as hot as it should
Found Thermostat Gasket INOP. Need to Replace Thermostat
Gasket and preform coolant flush. Gave customer estimate
Customer denied estimate at this time. (note this Was done the second time we brought in the car)
Parts - QTY - FP-Number --Description-- Unit Price-
Job# 2 Total Parts 0.00
Job# 2 Totale Labor and Parts 0.00

---

J# 3 00DOZ 16 Point Inspection Hours:0.50 Tech(s):4003 =16.95

Customer States 23 point inspection
Please also check the timing belt
$16.95
Performed 16 point inspection all fine at this time

Parts - QTY - FP-Number --Decription-- Unit Price-
Job# 3 1 5010884-AA Sealer RT 1081003 4.95 = 4.95
Job# 3 1 4864505-AB FLTR PKG 21170002 15.60 = 15.60
Job# 3 1 L0003157 Bulb None 8044001 1.75 = 1.75
Job# 3 2 5013458-AA Fluid TRA 1081018 21.18 = 42.36

Job# 3 Total Parts 64.66
Job# 3 Total Labor and Parts 81.61

---

J# 4+00DOZ03 Rotate Tires Hours:0.40 Tech(s):4003 =16.00

Customer Requests Tire Rotation
Completed customer requested service

Parts - QTY - FP-Number --Description-- Unit Price-
Job# 4 Total Parts 0.00
Job# 4 Total Labor and Parts 16.00

---

J# 5+61DOZ01 Ext Trim Concern Hours:0.40 Tech(s):4003

Upon 23 Point Found right rear brake light out.
Replaced right rear brake light bulb. All okay at this time.

Parts - QTY - FP-Number --Description-- Unit Price-
Job# 5 Total parts 0.00
Job# 5 Total Labors and Parts 20.00

---
J# 6+30DOZ01 Auto Trans Concern Hours:2.00 Tech(s):4003 120.00

Upon 23 point found transmission pan gasket leaking.
Need to Replace Gasket and filter
Replaced Gasket and filter. All okay at this time.

Parts - QTY - FP-Number --Description-- Unit Price-
Job# 6 Total Parts 0.00
Job# 6 Totale Labor and Parts 120.00

---

J# 7+03DOZ02 NYS Inspect/Emission Hours:0.60 TECH(s):44599 21.00

Customer Requests. NY State inspection
Completed NY state inspection
Sticker # ******* Issued by INSP# ****

Parts - QTY - FP-Number --Description-- Unit Price-
Job# 7 Total Parts 0.00
Job# 7 Totale Labor and Parts 21.00

---
MISC - CODE --Description-- Control NO-
Job# A WR Waste Removal 1.00
Total - MISC 1.00

Comments---
Waiter


Totals---
Labor 223.95
Parts 64.66
Sublet 0.00
G.O.G 0.00
Misc Chg. 1.00
Misc Disc 0.00
Tax 20.82

Total Invoice $ 310.43


(that was our first visit, I couldnt find our second visit, my husband may have taken it with him when getting the AER and left it)
Ok this is the estimate they gave us for the damage AFTER the belt broke:

L.R Window Motor (this was not included in the damage, but it had been a problem for a while so we just thought to get it fixed as well while we were at it.)
Blower Motor Resistor
Wiper Blades (which i dont understand Why they have to be replaced, me and my husband replaced them ourselves threw walmart about a month or so ago so we opted out of them.)
Trans Solenoid Pack (i think I spelled that right..the handwritting is hard to read)
Tranny Sevice
Tranny Fluid
Cleaner
Plugs
Coolant Flush
Coolant
Thermostat
Timing Belt
Timing Belt Tensioner
Headgasket set (which is the most expensive about 600.00)
Valves Intake
Valves Exhaust
Exhaust Gasket
Coolant
Rolocs
Brakecleaner
L.O.F


..and thats about it
at the bottom they have sublet machine Shop and Diag..but i think that just means labor and who took a look at the car.
All in all the damages totaled up to about 2,339.32.

Does this look about right?

Its quite alright, me and my husband are in the proccess of getting it all worked out. But as for what else could have made this happen..im not so sure. We did have the car inspected ..16 and 24 point, fluids replace, ect ect. not but 3 weeks before..and had taken the car in a Second time (before the belt) because of a "hiccup" in the transmition (air bubbles). So if there were any other problems before that..I would have hoped it was caught

no inspection I have ever heard of, no matter how many points are involved in the check list, will include pulling a motor apart. Its more cost effective, to simply do the job instead of just looking at it.

Keep in mind, there are too many things that you can look at all you want, but there's no simple way to test the life left of the item. Idler bearings and tensioners are a good example. Sometimes they just fail suddenly, even if you did look for bearing slop a short while ago. And thats assuming someone did, which I promise you, no one has. It would be in the realms of pulling the cylinder head to check the head gasket: you would probably not be interested in such an inspection when it would run you $1000+

the belt breaking is the end result, it doesn't tell you what caused the belt to break. It could have just been the belt....and it might have been a combination of age and something else. I could offer more details if I could look at all the components, but IMO, the end is, they didn't cause the belt to break. Maybe they had a new guy behind the front counter, maybe they were so swamped that she didn't have time to make up an estimate. Maybe she was positive you weren't interested in buying anything and just decided to not bother trying. No one will ever know most likely....but they still didn't break your car.

that's just me, for my car. if the service manual for a customer's car said change the belts at 90k, i'd change them at 90k unless otherwise requested.

I personally make recommendations based off what I believe is in the best interest of the customer. I guess some might consider that some kind of rip off, but I give my honest opinion on everything I do. If I call out a timing belt, I call out a waterpump also. This is an "upsell" when there is no visual problem with the waterpump, but its just common sense to do it while you're in there, and is more cost effective in the long run, vs the waterpump failing later.

You could argue that I'm still selling unneeded work. and you would be correct. This is where the lines get fuzzy. You have to do what you think is right.

no inspection I have ever heard of, no matter how many points are involved in the check list, will include pulling a motor apart. Its more cost effective, to simply do the job instead of just looking at it.

Yeah I know that, that is why we asked them to Also look at the timing belt because we knew it was not included in the inspection. The belt was extra or at least should have been.

And it is possible that they rushed because they were very swamped when we took the car in. I am just surprised that they didnt catch that we had 105k on our car..and didnt suggest us replacing the timing belt..even after we asked them to check it. Would that not be upselling (or in this case Actually getting something done that probly should have been)?

lilwhy, you'll need to give a more thorough break down on the costs for us to give you any real opinion. Parts alone could be 3/4 of that bill....and if thats the case, they are being very generous.

I personally make recommendations based off what I believe is in the best interest of the customer. I guess some might consider that some kind of rip off, but I give my honest opinion on everything I do. If I call out a timing belt, I call out a waterpump also. This is an "upsell" when there is no visual problem with the waterpump, but its just common sense to do it while you're in there, and is more cost effective in the long run, vs the waterpump failing later.

As I understand it..that replacing a waterpump after takeing it off to check or replace a timing belt is not "upselling" but honestly something you should do. Something about the valvues not sealing as well as they did before..or something of that nature. I just have heard on many accounts from differant ppl, that replacing it is the best course of action either way you look at it.

As I understand it..that replacing a waterpump after takeing it off to check or replace a timing belt is not "upselling" but honestly something you should do. Something about the valvues not sealing as well as they did before..or something of that nature. I just have heard on many accounts from differant ppl, that replacing it is the best course of action either way you look at it.

that really depends on who you ask. Some recommend replacing the tensioner and all idlers also, others believe its a waste of money. Many cars, that could be a $500 price difference on the cost of the job.

Many people have different beliefs on this, it really comes down to the car in question. Someone that is very intimate with a particular model will know what the likelihood of a component failure....which doesn't prevent something odd failing, of course. For example, mazda MPV 3.0L V6's are well known for having idler/tensioner problems and chewing timing belts in half. I've seen it a few times and call out the entire works on older MPV's when doing a timing belt....but I dont normally call it out on most cars.

Many people price shop. When you give an estimate for a job that is $500 more than another shop, no matter how good your argument is, you can guess where most go.

lilwhy, you'll need to give a more thorough break down on the costs for us to give you any real opinion. Parts alone could be 3/4 of that bill....and if thats the case, they are being very generous.

Well the problem is what me and my husband have as of right now is just a really rough idea and estimate of what needs to be fixed and what it is going to cost. We had to get something same day so that we could start applying for an AER as soon as possible before my husband left for three days for field.

Part Name - Part Number - Part Price - Labor Time - Total

L.R Window Motor - 5056031AD - 80.20 - 1.2 - 164.20
Blower Motor Resistor - 5174124AA - 34.95 - .8 - 90.95
Wiper Blades - 22" - 10.75x2 - .2 - 35.50
Trans Solenoid Pack - 5140429AA - 204.00 - 2.1 - 351.00
Tranny Sevice - 5010884AA/4864505AB - 20.55 - 1.0 - 90.55
Tranny Fluid - none - 47.19 - blank - 47.19
Cleaner - none - 10.60 - blank - 10.60
Plugs - 53RE14MCC5 - 3.20x4 - .8 - 49.95
Coolant Flush - none - 25.95 - 1.0 - 69.95
Coolant - none - 30.70 - blank - 30.70
Thermostat - 5278144AA - 12.25 - .7 - 61.25
Timing Belt - 4621844 - 88.17(105K4) - 2.3- 249.17
($161.06 Additional time required due to having to change timing belt cover and houseing to replace tensioner)
Timing Belt Tensioner - 5114070AA - 200.00(5/6) - blank - 200.00
Headgasket set - 5083153AB - 93.25(5/0) - 7.2 - 597.25
($504.00)
Valves Intake - 4884691AA - 15.10x8(5/0) - B - 120.80
Valves Exhaust - 4884690AA - 14.75x8(5/0) - B - 118.00
Exhaust Gasket - 4781255AA - 10.45(5/0) - B - 10.45
Coolant - 5066386AA - 15.35x2 - B - 30.70
Rolocs - 7480 - 2.50x4 - B - 10.00
Brakecleaner - 4897151AA - 5.30x2 - B - 10.60
L.O.F - none- none - .5 - 21.95
($21.95)

Sublet Machine Shop (depends on what it needs) 150.00 ? 150.00
Diag .5 - 35.00

total with tax $2,339.32
(note this is after we took the lr window motor and the wiper blades off the list of "to do's")

one thing I noticed, there's no waterpump on that list....

I think thats a pretty reasonable priced list IMO....if you can find out what motor it has, I could check their labor time....if its a 2.4L engine, its definitely high, but if its a V6, it sounds close...but there is 2 different V6's availible

I noticed the number of valves, this has to be a 2.4L, although they offered both the DOHC and SOHC for this year

depending on how I look it up, its anywhere from 6.6 hours to 8.8 hours. More than I thought it would be honestly. But either way, thats about right then.

one thing I noticed, there's no waterpump on that list....

I think thats a pretty reasonable priced list IMO....if you can find out what motor it has, I could check their labor time....if its a 2.4L engine, its definitely high, but if its a V6, it sounds close...but there is 2 different V6's availible

An item we had replaced the second time we went in. The one I dont have the paper for. When I saw they had checked the timing belt and not replaced the pump, i asked for it when we went in the second time to get the "hiccup" out of the transmission.

how do i go about finding out what type V6 we have? because I am pretty sure thats what we got.

it takes them 7.2 hours to change a set of head gaskets?

i can tear down and engine, replace the internals/rings/etc and put it back together in less time than that.

it takes them 7.2 hours to change a set of head gaskets?

i can tear down and engine, replace the internals/rings/etc and put it back together in less time than that.


Thats why your our resident Super Mechanic.

seriously, 7.2 hours is just plain ridiculous.

in college, i took and engine (ford 2.0, single cam) and tore it all down, took everything out checked it etc.. then put it all back in, torqued everything to correct spec and so on, working relatively slowly (going back and forth to the stores to get tools) it was done in little over 3 hours.

working with a friend's engine (2.0 4G63) removing and replacing the internals with aftermarket parts we did it in less than two hours.

you could argue we had the advantage of having the engines out, with no hoses etc attached. but i thin 7.2 hours to change the head gaskets was them working slowly to milk the job for every penny they could get.

it takes them 7.2 hours to change a set of head gaskets?

i can tear down and engine, replace the internals/rings/etc and put it back together in less time than that.

Welcome to flat rate. Trust me, you sometimes win at it....but its rare you beat it consistantly, by a large percentage.

One of the guys here can do a 2.0L dodge head gasket in about 2 hours. (very simular to the 2.4L) He makes bank on those. He's also been a mechanic for 20+ years and has done more 2.0 head gaskets than he could count. The experience should be rewarded, and commission does just that.

I've always wanted a customer to complain that I spent twice the time on a job than they are paying me for, and INSIST that they pay me what I actually have into it....but its yet to happen.

Some day life will be "fair".....I'll wait :screwy:

how do i go about finding out what type V6 we have? because I am pretty sure thats what we got.

if you have your title around, find the 8th digit in the VIN number, thats the engine code.

I dont have it with me but will as soon as I get the approval on our AER back. When that happens, I will be sure to post it on here.
They needed all sorts of crap for an AER application. We are Still waiting for my hubbies commander's signiture. ...urgh..military..but if it wasnt for them, I cant see how we would get a loan anywhere else (hubby has bad credit and I have none at all.)

There are only 4 sparkplugs charged on the list. And 16 valves. 1 exhaust gasket. I think it is a 4 cyl. Coolant is charged twice on your list. The VIN will be on your auto insurance policy also. If the 8th digit is "G" the water pump is driven by the timing belt.

There are only 4 sparkplugs charged on the list. And 16 valves. 1 exhaust gasket. I think it is a 4 cyl. Coolant is charged twice on your list. The VIN will be on your auto insurance policy also. If the 8th digit is "G" the water pump is driven by the timing belt.

wow, thank you! ill go run and look that up now, also, ill call the dealers and see why coolant was charged twice. Thank you again.

There may be a few more questions for the dealer to answer. Remain settled and continue collecting information first so that you have the best understanding possible about your situation when you ask a question.

cant she look at the VIN on the windshield plate, or does this car not have one?

Car's at the shop, remember?

Hey there,

Sorry to hear about your problems...

Keep a small tablet in your glovebox and WRITE DOWN EVERYTHING. This is what I do. When I change the brakes I write down what I did and when I did it. That way when I look through it once in awhile I know how long its been and I know what to change. While your at it...HAVE THEM CHANGE THE WATERPUMP TOO. Since they will have the engine apart you should have them do this. Otherwise if you dont and it goes you have to take all that apart again. Dodges are known for head gasket failures too. I could suggest you to do this too but this is totally up to you. I had a Plymouth Breeze and did the timing, head gasket and waterpump all for under $500 but I did all the work myself. What country are you guys in? I am also in the military and just got back from Iraq.

Maintenence schedule:

Brakes once a year
Transmission Fluid once a year or 20,000 miles.
Fuel filter once a year
Oil Filter and Oil EVERY 3000 miles RELIGOUSLY ! ! !
Ait Filter once to twice a year
Timing Belt, waterpump 100,000
Serpantine belt Every year to be safe
Coolant Flush 2-3 years