Replace, or re-ring?

That is the question.
I have a 93 civic with the D15 motor in it (SOHC no VTEC). I made the mistake of buying the car in the dark, while it was raining and i was in a rush (My Z34 heater core was leaking and i didnt want to deal with that 'ol chebby anymore) so i failed to notice that the car burns oil.

A LOT of oil. I'm talking a quart every 200-300 miles bad. I'm talking i smoke out everyone behind me every time I accelerate. I'm talking the back right part of the car gets black with soot within a couple of weeks.

I know it's not the valve seals (well they may be leaking too, but minorly in comparison) because it generally doesn't push out a huge cloud of smoke when i start up, rather it really smokes when i get on the pedal or i pull a high vaccum for a while then give it gas such as coasting down a long steep hill. Also, [what's left of] my oil looks like diesel oil after only a few miles - exhaust leaking into crankcase... so I know it's the oil control rings. Finally, i suspect that it's all four cylinders, becasue ALL of my sparkplugs ash up.

So. I gotta get this fixed. Not fun having to pour in a quart every three days (thought it saves time on oil changes, i only need to change the filter :grinno: ) One of my former colleuges at wrok (I used to work at a Honda dealer, ironic no?) suggested that I pull the head, drop the pan, pull the pistons and rering them. Another one said i should just replace the motor with a junkyard donor. Either method will be a real PITA to do at home... So i was wondering what YOU guys would do.

Replace pros:
less messy
Harder to mess up
uhh... that's all i can think of
Replace cons:
more expensive
more labor intensive
chance of getting worse motor from boneyard

Rering pros:
Cheaper
less to take apart
chance to change out all my seals so no more oil leaks
rering cons:
My cylinder walls could be fuxxord, which would make it a waste of time
Easier to mess up. (rings have to be in certain position etc)

Egh i dont want to deal with this crap.

change the rings, it's really not a pain to do at home. what's more, it's probably not every cylinder that's in need of new rings. do a compression test, find which cylinder(s) need(s) new rings and replace. it can be done in about 2-3 hours if you work at a decent pace.

its the oil rings that are gone, not the compression rings, and they'res so much oil in the cylinders that a compression test is a moot point.... anyway i already did and they're all pushing 210psi.

And yes its all the cylinders. Somehow. Theres a *lot* of ash buildup on all the plugs (but #2 is the worst)

Do you know how to (and have the stuff) to properly hone the engine? Everyone says civic engines are too cheep to rebuild, but I allways opt to rebuild rather then replace, unless I know the engine thats going in. $400 for rebuild, vs $300 junk yard with 150,000+ miles on it, in my mind thats an easy answer - assuming you have the knowledge, tools, ect to rebuild the engine.

You forgot option 3.

Sell the crap Civic and buy a rotary.

Then the burning oil will be normal.

Ha yeah. If i had enough money to waste on a dorito-spinner, then i wouldn't be stuck with a 13 year old civic now would I?

Anyway, i don't have a cylinder hone, nor do i plan on being that extensive in the rering. Maybe use a glazebreaker on it, but that's all. Other than that, yes i have all the tools neccesary to take the motor apart. I just know that once i start it, i know SOME goddamn think will happen. Meh. I think i need a buddy for this.

*edit* and i need to do it soon. its starting to get cold out.

I don't know your budget, but if it was me I'd bore out the engine and get some performance pistons (and all new rings of course). If it's done right, you're guaranteed to have the problem fixed. While the head is out, go ahead and clean and polish the valve seats and the associated plumbing. That'll help the motor run a little more efficiently, and I'd imagine that a smooth finish wouldn't collect as much carbon in the long run.

used engines are so cheap, I'd say it would be rather silly to not go that route.

About the same amount of work, time-wise.

No promises that re-ringing it would completely solve your problems. The used motor might have problems, true, but I've always had pretty good luck with used motors. Most junkyards are pretty straight up on mileage and most do compression tests on the engines too.

If you get a japanese used motor, you end up swapping out stuff from the old motor to the "new" motor. I believe the 1.5L jap motor had a mechanical fuel pump flange you have to block off on the head....but nothing all that difficult. I just like getting an entire motor ready to go, instaed of having to swap everything over.

Of course, replacing the timing belt and water pump and valve cover gasket aren't bad ideas....

Re-ringing your Honda in a driveway is easy and involves the lowest cost and the least amount of time. Harbor Freight has inexpensive ball hones that will work great for you. Timing belt and water pump will add to your expense but make sense for each option.

Theres lots of room to drop the sump off and take the motor off in the car. So pulling out a piston or 4 to rehone isn't going to be hard.

I don't know its its less work than just swaping in another pre-predded 1500 though, they are very simple motors, and there really isn't a lot hanging off them.

heh, the timing belt and water pump (and radiator) and valve cover gaskets were replaced already. And you cant really bore these cylinders out, nor am i goint to pull to block TO bore them out. So yeah maybe hone.
I've had bad experiences with shady junkyard woners that don't remeber you when you come to bring a shitty part back, so that's why i'd rather not go that route.

I'll buy a case of beer to whoever wants to do this for me :D

one of the reasons I'm not endorsing the re-ring'ing, is because I've done this type of on-the-cheap ring job also. More times than I prefer to admit. Too often it doesn't fix the issue. Why depends on each situation. Sometimes the bore is too egg'd, or the piston is damaged, or the valve guides are shot. But there's nothing more frustrating than spending all that time doing a hack job, and have it just as bad as it was.

There is risks with either situation, no doubt. But with the level of consumption you're talking....that is a crap load. Something could be very fubar'd in there and it may not be obvious to the human eyeball

...you cant really bore these cylinders out...

If that were the case, honda wouldnt sell oversized pistons.

But there's nothing more frustrating than spending all that time doing a hack job, and have it just as bad as it was.



:wink: I can think of one, putting new round rings in an out-of round bore and makeing it worse :wink:

Funny, Did anyone mention rebuilding complete engine? If the rings are worn out then so might the rest of it. How much is a civic worth vs. How much for the job? :screwy:

Why buy another junk yard engine when you already have one. If you don't have an engine hoist at your location, or a truck to go get the engine and return the core, those tasks alone involve more time and energy than buying a hone, picking up a few parts, and replacing them. The ring problem is most likely due to overheating that does not damage the rest of the engine. "Might", being the key word, one worn engine part does not indicate that some or all other engine parts are equally worn. I have had very good results re-ringing Hondas and other 4cyls. I suspect that you will find the cylinders are still near new. Rings, rod brgs, and a head gasket are $115 including tax. Check a machine shop, beat that price and get hooked up with a cylinder hone.

one of the reasons I'm not endorsing the re-ring'ing, is because I've done this type of on-the-cheap ring job also. More times than I prefer to admit. Too often it doesn't fix the issue. Why depends on each situation. Sometimes the bore is too egg'd, or the piston is damaged, or the valve guides are shot. But there's nothing more frustrating than spending all that time doing a hack job, and have it just as bad as it was.

There is risks with either situation, no doubt. But with the level of consumption you're talking....that is a crap load. Something could be very fubar'd in there and it may not be obvious to the human eyeball

then remove the cylinder head, and use a bore gauge to see if the cylinder has oval'd.

then remove the cylinder head, and use a bore gauge to see if the cylinder has oval'd.

...and check the valve guide slop, and replace guide seals while you're at it, and might as well replace the bearings too....etc etc etc.

Or just get a used engine for $300. *shrug*

usually used engines have been re-built anyway if they need it if you get them from a retailer. if it were me, i'd get it from an engine retailer, pay a little more, and get a better engine than a junkyard.
i'm in the market for one myself.


[thread hijack]
can collapsed lifters do any serious damage if not replaced?
i've got 1-2 that are bad, but dont have time to replace them now. am i causing any serious damage?
[/thread hijack]

Once again there is more than one way to solve a problem. UncleBob, obviously you strongly prefer to solve this type of problem by replacing the complete component rather than repairing what is wrong with the component. For the simple reason that most vehicles on the road have good engines, most take out engines are also likely to be good engines. I suspect that I am not the only individual wondering how you know, "most junk yards do compression tests on most engines"? What you are also saying is that every junk yard fails to do a compression test on some engines. Steels second post reports that his miserable oil eating engine measures 210 psi on each cylinder. I am more concerned about getting one of the engines that some (actually ALL) junk yards did not test and have no idea about running condition. Those engines are the ones exchanged for $300 to be tested by the purchaser after installation. If there is a problem, usually the junk yard is happy to exchange that engine for another $300 engine. You write that the reason you feel so strongly about replacing the complete engine is because in your words, "More times than I prefer to admit. Too often it doesn't fix the issue". Indeed it makes sense that there is less risk exchanging using a take out engine than the methods you have followed when replacing rings. If every individual experienced results similar to yours, nobody would re-ring an engine. Can you tell us what type of rings you used on your engine repairs that too many times turned out to be such bad experience for you? You can help others avoid the same mistake and enjoy economical success.

Once again there is more than one way to solve a problem. UncleBob, obviously you strongly prefer to solve this type of problem by replacing the complete component rather than repairing what is wrong with the component.
No actually, it depends on the situation.

On a bike, I can easily pick up components and fix them on the cheap. It requires very little time because bikes are easy to work on.

On most cars, its not cost effective IMO. Time-wise, and price-wise. The cost difference of a used engine between the two also offsets these two situations. Used motorcycle motors start at $1000 and go up from there, and you can never find them locally, so then you have to add heavy shipping costs on top of that. These are all situations that depend on the vehicle in question of course, and those situations would change my answer. A 1.5 honda motor is extremely cheap to find used.

I suspect that I am not the only individual wondering how you know, "most junk yards do compression tests on most engines"?

I work at a car shop, I installed used engines regularly. Not all junk yards operate the same way, of course. But my experience, in my area, most have the mileage and the compression in their notes.

And of course a compression test isn't a clean bill of health, I never would have suggested such a thing.

Can you tell us what type of rings you used on your engine repairs that too many times turned out to be such bad experience for you? You can help others avoid the same mistake and enjoy economical success.
I used stock rings, thats all that is usually availible for motorcycles. Not a huge aftermarket scene in that land. I would go into more detail, but I'm sure others would poopoo such a different type of vehicle.

The bottom line is, if you are "slapping rings in there", that usually refers to a minimal, no measuring, no machining, nothing more than absolutely necessary fix. In that example, you really don't know for sure what caused the problem, you are only praying the rings will cure it.

The bottom line is, if you are "slapping rings in there", that usually refers to a minimal, no measuring, no machining, nothing more than absolutely necessary fix. In that example, you really don't know for sure what caused the problem, you are only praying the rings will cure it.

Yeap pretty much. I want to spend the minimum amount fo money and effort in getting this resolved. Remember that this is a 13 year old (soon to be 14) econobox bought on the cheap and if i had enough money to get it fixed the right way, i'd also have enough money to afford a newer less junky used car (this civic has other problems too). Either option has its risk, however i don't think the cylinders would be THAT out of round afte ronly 100k miles. I worry that the rings (which i think are broken as opposed to seized) may have scratched the heck out of the cylinder walls.

I forgot to mention that upon first inspection when i noticed the oil burning, i found the PCV hose to be collapsed and the PCV valve to be *completely* frozen up with carbon and gunk. I was wondering if high crankcase pressures could cause oil rings to blow out and break (i'm suprised the front or rear crank seals or any other seals for that matter didn't blow) without ruining the compression rings. Then again as i said before, the compression rings (or the shape of the cylinder itself) could be junk but the amount of oil being left on the cylinder walls is causing a good seal which in turn is providing good compression numbers.

Either way im up the shit creek without a paddle, and knowing my luck i'm gonna get screwed either way. I'm just trying to decide which screw will hurt less in the end. Makes me wish i never sold:

The TurboII (well... that's debateable)
The lumina Z34 (debateable too)
The 87 toyota pickup (best truck EVAR!)
MY first civic didn't get rearended
The first RX-7
The isuzu pickup
The pathfinder

a plugged PCV system can most definitely cause heavy oil burning. I would suggest, before you do anything, find a valve cover off another 1.5 and install it. When a engine gets that gunked up, the baffle in the valve cover will get clogged also.

Is there oil saturating the intake snorkel? That is another sign of a restricted PCV system.

That makes a lot more sense, IMO, than rings....the level of oil consumption you are discribing is way more than you see with JUST worn out rings. Only way I've ever had pistons consume that much before, was when I broke the ring lands on 2 pistons.

You think its possible to clean the baffle in the valve cover? from what i remember, its just a simple cover with a bunghole for the PCV valve. Im sure i can clean that out. Aside from that, i'll check the things out that you said and report in. Maybe there is a small ray of hope here for me.

I can't speak for the 1.5 specifically, but usually there's a labirinth (sp) to prevent oil from making it to the PCV, this makes it very hard to clean without pulling the baffle apart. Which you could do, but then you'll have to figure out a way to reattach the baffle.

The blocked PCV system could cause the whole problem. Make sure the entire PCV system is totally clear and flowing before doing anything else. I think it is possible to clean the valve cover once it is removed. My first choice of cleaning would be to let solvent from a parts washer (which you probably don't have) circulate through the baffle. Make sure that the hose from the valve cover to the intake pipe is clear because that is where the PCV system begins. Make friends with an engine machine shop. They will want to be your friend as well, seeing that you may need additional engine work and probably know others who may need engine work in the future. If you eventually find you do need to re-ring, less expensive cast iron rings are a better choice than premium rings because they will seal better and quicker with cylinders that are less than perfect.

Reason #43 that internet diagnosis sucks.

WELP!
I just lost compression in cylinder number 2. Completely. I'm talking less than 20psi no sparkplugs and jumper box putting 200 amps to the starter.

I guess that made my decision for me, eh?

what are you doing with it now?

No idea. I have no money for a new motor, or car for that matter, becasue i have not job, because I'm going to school. But I need to get to school. Ehm. Well, my mom was planning on buying a new car in the spring and working out a deal/giving me her current one (2k2 protege 5...bright yellow!) so maybe that will just speed the process along. I don't know. I'm kinda screwed.

My 1993 Honda Civic DX 1.5L SOHC Does The Same Thing IMAGIN THAT!
So I Guess I need new rings hu?:disappoin

although my love for you is strong with the force, my hatred for ressurecting old threads is stronger.

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